The Real timschochet

BTW one point of correction- it’s not the leftist orthodoxy that defines my position on these migrants- it’s the libertarian orthodoxy. To me it’s a question of capitalism. It’s the same reason I’m for free trade.

Completely off topic but since you brought it up: The last time I was in Europe none of the stores I visited wanted to accept my American Express card. They kept asking me if I could Visa instead because the charges were so high. It made me wonder what’s the point of having Amex?

As I said yesterday I’m actually closer to you than may appear. I would like to see things more orderly as you would. The problems we see are the same, though I think you exaggerate certain aspects of it and you obviously think I don’t appreciate them enough. Thats OK. Where we differ strongly is that I can’t go with our new President’s proposals to solve these issues. If you can then I’m afraid we’re at a moral impass.

It’s possible to offer good natured insults from time to time without wishing violent death on someone or their family members. Perhaps take this as a lesson?

Well you’re the expert.

Well that depends yon who you are. A smart person would question whether or not it’s really a desirable goal to round up innocent people in the first place.

You seem like a smart and good dude but you’ve fallen into the trap on this question of blaming these mostly poor and innocent people for all of our woes. Sadly this is a disease that seems to have infected most of our nation at this time. It will have to run its course. I hope things don’t get too ugly.

Ah yes the usual classy comment by Hardcore. I suppose I should be grateful that this time it’s me that’s the target and not one of my daughters.

Did I not acknowledge that overcrowding is a problem? What I reject is your implication that undocumented immigration is the source of that problem. Thats the crap part.

This is crap. Sorry but I come from a family of educators and there is NO evidence that anyone falls behind due to undocumented children being educated. Yes there is overcrowding in some areas but the answer is more money, not kicking children out of school.

Are you aware that when immigrants, whether legal or undocumented, send money from here back to other countries, it actually strengthens our economy? No of course you’re not because they don’t teach you that little fact on Fox News.

Because he was terrible and hasn’t learned anything?

Mass murderer Fauci. How deranged you are.

She got shellacked because people made the wrong choice, not because she wasn’t qualified. It’s absurd and embarrassing for a guy as inept as Donald Trump to claim that Kamala wasn’t ready for the job when she’s infinitely more qualified than he could ever be.

He cares about being loved. And when bad things happen he knows he won’t be loved. Call it sociopathic, call it transactional, whatever.

Yeah speaking his mind on this point just shows what a jerk he is. He’s also wrong.

Well to be quite fair I don’t want the military shooting rioters and looters either. Arrest yes. Shoot if they don’t surrender yes. Shooting indiscriminately? No. And all that is a job for the police, not the military.

The biggest guardrail for Trump is Trump, and his desire to be loved. I honestly believe that he really doesn’t want bad things to happen and that will make him cautious.

That’s too bad that you’re distrustful. I want good things to happen for this country. If Trump gives us prosperity and good times I will cheer him on.

I’ve posted the studies. @Engorgeous George is correct that they’re imperfect, including for the reason you’re asking about. Still they all point in one direction.

It was a fine interview but as usual he won’t really answer any hard questions. No secret that I really don’t like Donald Trump and don’t think he was a good President last time around. Whether or if he is a good President this time depends largely on what he does, not on what he says. So we’ll see. I try to keep an open mind.

I appreciate the conversation, @Engorgeous George. I honestly don’t think we’re as far apart as it might appear, because I don’t disagree with most of the concerns you raise. Like you I would prefer a more orderly system. But we don’t have one right now and in the meantime I am just not for persecuting people that I regard as mostly innocent. Like you I have serious long term concerns about education. But I don’t believe the solution is to expel certain children from the schools. I just can’t be for that, ever. Of course my views on this don’t matter. I can shout them loudly in this forum and elsewhere, I can send money to the ACLU, I can take personal action with regard to some people I know (I won’t get into details on that.) But the fact is that my side was defeated in this last election and even long before that I saw the writing on the wall: a strong majority of the public disagrees with me on this subject. At least for the time being, they want not only a strong border (which I don’t mind) but mass deportation. So be it. Nothing I can do to stop it, really. I hope for the best.

In what way? You quoted a House committee report written by Republicans with an axe to grind. I am skeptical of the accuracy because its assertions, none of which are backed up by facts, are consistently contradicted by every study made on this subject.

Yes. And again while it is imperfect it certainly points in a certain direction. There have literally been hundreds of studies on this subject during the last 10 years alone and they all suggest the same result- these folks commit less crimes than those born here, not more. So far as I know there is not one legitimate study that proves the opposite to be true.

I don’t ignore any of these arguments. Let me break them down: 1. The latest link I provided is dated September of 2024. So not outdated. 2. Partisan? I don’t agree but in today’s climate it’s probably impossible for me to prove that to you. 3. You may have a point about convictions but it’s probably impossible to measure this issue in any other way. But to suggest that this argument by you somehow proves that the numbers of undocumented committing violent crimes is significantly higher is really a stretch on your part. Up to you to prove and I don’t think you can. 4. I have never ignored the other items you listed: reintroduced diseases, cost to education, affordable housing, etc. These are all real concerns. So is keeping our prices lower. My argument has always been, not that these folks are always a positive, but that they are a NET positive: that the gains outweigh the losses. The losses are serious and need to be addressed better by our society. I don’t believe that getting rid of these people is the answer to them. 5. Well I live in California, and we have plenty of undocumented immigrants. Thanks to them we are able to send agriculture to the rest of the country at prices much more affordable. So I think they’re a positive impact.