The Real timschochet

I don’t see why we can’t do both. IMO it’s good for us to help the world- good for our economy, good for trade. The Marshall Plan saved Europe from starvation and Communism and made us a thousand times richer. You would have opposed it, clearly. I am NOT arguing for altruism. My firm belief is that when we (a) help other countries and (b) take in poor refugees into this country we are helping ourselves, increasing our own prosperity. History has shown this to be true.

You didn’t say every. But you responded to a thread called “Islam” and a bigoted, hateful series of posts. Every society has bad actors. Every society does terrible things to animals too. Shall we blame what Michael Vick did to dogs on all of American society? It’s bigoted to make blanket statements. The Taliban is certainly evil. There are other radical sects of Islam that are also evil. But I believe that the vast majority of individual Afghans, like the vast majority of individual Muslims, like the vast majority if everybody on Earth, are basically good people who don’t want to harm anyone and deserve a little respect and dignity. That’s why I hate attitudes like the OP and those who agree with him. If that makes me, in your eyes, a naive bleeding heart liberal then fine. I’ll gladly accept the title and own it proudly.

You keep bringing up children. Of course I care about them. The difference between us is that I know they’re coming here anyhow no matter what fences we put up. I want them to come here safely, with protections. You want them to starve in their own country.

None of that disputes what I wrote. It did go down; he signed the agreement and then it went back up. Those are the facts. (I would also point out that neither the decrease or increase had anything to do with Trump’s actions or inactions- or later, Biden’s actions or inactions- they’re due to economic and societal changes, the impacts of Covid and climate change on South America, and other factors, but that’s a separate argument. )

The agreement was signed in January of 2020. 2020 was the highest year for border crossings during Trump’s first term.

You’re been there so every Afghan and every Muslim is an evil POS. You’ve met them all? You’re pretty amazing. (Or, as an alternative, you’re a stupid bigot. I think that’s more likely.)

Yeah except that undocumented immigration from our southern border actually went UP after that agreement was passed. But facts don’t matter; Trump declared a “win” and you guys bought it. The same thing will happen this time.

He wants to talk to Trump, which is the responsible thing to do. I have no idea what you mean by “coming to heel”, because I have no idea what Canada did “wrong” before and what they’re supposed to be doing now. But as I mentioned before, your head is so far up Trump’s ass that you view everything as a “victory”.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/how-trudeau-reacted-to-trumps-25-tariffs-on-canadian-products/amp_articleshow/115699667.cms This is why you aren’t taken seriously.

Speaking from personal experience (including some folks from Afghanistan whom I have gotten to know very well) you couldn’t be more wrong. And ignorant.

Ignorance and bigotry. You guys are being really ugly.

Are you in favor of immediately halting all government subsidies to the oil and gas industries?

Your statement that there is no “silver bullet solution” (which I agree with) contradicts your earlier assertion that Mexico can easily step up and avoid these tariffs entirely.

Fair enough. Having read a lot about this topic, I believe I do. And I think Trump is making a terrible mistake here for our country. But let me add that there is always the possibility that you and @RLLD are correct, that this will cause Mexico, Canada, and China to change policies to our benefit, that it will help with migrants and fentanyl, that Trump will declare victory and the tariffs won’t happen or will be quickly removed. I hope that is the case. I hope he turns out to be the brilliant master negotiator that RLLD is claiming. We’ll see.

Mexico responds: https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mexico-suggests-impose-tariffs-retaliate-trump-tariffs-116234357 They will retaliate with tariffs of their own. They are already helping us with the migrant issue. And our consumption of illegal drugs is an “American problem.” She also pointed out that Trump signed an agreement with Mexico prohibiting tariffs so he will be breaking his solemn word.

Thats a rather vague answer don’t you think?

Will it? Please explain in detail what Mexico needs to do to “step up and avoid these tariffs entirely”.

Then you have a short memory. I complained heavily about Biden’s tariffs. They made things worse and contributed to inflation. They never work. I would argue that we benefit from free trade with China even if they have unfair trade practices. But putting that aside, please explain what we gain by tariffs on Canada and Mexico?

If the subject matter weren’t so serious this thread would be hilarious. All of those opposed to the new tariffs have offered serious reasons why (inflation is only one of them; there are all sorts of negative ramifications for employment, industrial growth, the entire economy.) Meanwhile, on the other, pro-tariff side, this is what we get: You liberals are all idiots! You lost, sit down and shut up! Maybe they’ll use this to replace income tax . Oh, NOW you care about inflation! Fock Mexico! Fock China! Not one serious argument in defense of what Trump is proposing. The closest is the rather vague notion that this is grandstanding and Trump will get a “better deal”. What sort of better deal will we get from Mexico and Canada? No answer. The funniest thing is I know that many of you, if not most, don’t even like tariffs. Interference in the free market has never been, you know, exactly a conservative ideal. But once again “owning the libs” is really the only thing that matters for most of you. Your heads are all so far up Trump’s ass that you’ll support any idea he has, no matter how crazy or stupid, if it appears to “own the libs” even for a short time. Your posts prove it.

Bad isn’t it? Why the hell would you want it higher?

I’ll care. I don’t need people to suffer in order to prove me right. And I shop too.

I think this is a terrible idea and I have said so many times. Trump’s original idea to place tariffs on ALL countries would have been catastrophic; hopefully he’s backed away from that. But this is bad enough. That being said, it wasn’t a secret. Trump campaigned on this and the public voted for him so this is clearly what they want. So let it happen I guess. I can only hope that the people who claim this is a negotiating tool are right. I don’t think they are, but I always hope for the best.

Yeesh my fault for asking I guess.

Thank you. Follow up question: the viable alternatives to fossil fuels- nuclear, solar, wind etc. are all obviously quite different but they have one thing in common: they all require large government funding to subsidize them at least at first. While you’re opposed to government “forcing things” (which I assume means restrictions on fossil fuels) are you also opposed to funding? And what if China makes a major push towards nuclear energy and is government funded? Should our position remain “we’re gonna wait until the market does it”?

Is there a connection between your response and my question to RLLD?