The Real timschochet

Also libertarians don’t give a crap about “the will of the people”. That’s a leftist, Communist term. You might as well be wearing be a hammer and sickle on your lapel.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Closing borders involves government, not keeping them open. What the hell are you even talking about? You’re very confused.

Back in 2020 the Baker Institute from Rice University in Texas did an in depth study of the economic effects of undocumented immigration and concluded that the benefits outweighed the costs: https://www.bakerinstitute.org/research/undocumented-immigrants-texas-cost-benefit-assessment This matches a previous study on this topic from ten years prior by the University of Arizona. I have linked both studies in the past and likely will continue to do so, as the facts regarding this matter are pretty overwhelming. I have also posted various studies showing that the impact of undocumented immigration on crime is insignificant in terms of overall numbers or percentage. Thus the two major complaints made about these people, that they cost us money and that they’re generally violent criminals, are essentially myths, created and maintained by those who seek to divide us through fear and bigotry. This doesn’t mean that the current border situation isn’t a big problem; it is and we need to take action. But we shouldn’t forget that in the long term undocumented immigrants are still mostly a benefit to us.

I’ve noticed you have a tendency to label everything you disagree with “leftist”. This is both incorrect and lazy. Most of my views and arguments regarding undocumented immigration come from libertarian sources, like Reason magazine and the Cato institute. My overall philosophy regarding this issue is pro-capitalism. On the other hand, your position fits more squarely in the collectivist/leftist mode.

About 75% of Americans still support helping Ukraine: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/02/16/how-americans-view-the-conflicts-between-russia-and-ukraine-israel-and-hamas-and-china-and-taiwan/ About half of the Republicans are opposed. Unfortunately this 25%, through the House of Representatives, have a veto power on the rest of us.

Good morning. I read a pretty good opinion piece in the Washington Post this morning about Kamala Harris: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/02/22/kamala-harris-asset-campaign/ Jennifer Rubin is an excellent writer. And she’s right; Kamala is being seriously underrated. In the end her ability to mobilize younger voters will help Biden win the election.

Glad you’re enjoying the thread. But I don’t think I’m smarter than all of them. I do think I’m smarter than YOU.

The reason I don’t use that term is because it is dehumanizing. A person cannot be illegal. An act is illegal, not a person. In Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union there were people classified as illegal. That’s not something we should ever emulate here.

1. I don’t. We do deport some undocumented people right now. But if we ever try to do it in large numbers the cost will be enormous. And with no benefit whatsoever (IMO). 2. Of course the analogy applies. The vast majority of undocumented immigrants do not commit violent crimes. They are hard working people, essential to our economy. The more onerous you make conditions for undocumented immigrants, the more you affect the honest ones who don’t commit crimes and contribute heavily to our society. The analogy is spot on.

I’ve been busy all day so I didn’t get a chance to respond to this. But the truth is that neither of those events would cause the swing that you need. The key is that you would need 60 hardline conservative Senators in favor of mass deportation. Just getting 60 GOP Senators would be quite an accomplishment and really unlikely; getting 60 hardline (basically meaning MAGA) Republicans is, in my estimation impossible. With regard to the two possibilities you raised, certainly more Democrats will eventually lead to more Republicans- that’s how this country works, we swing back and forth on the pendulum. But 60 is unlikely and 60 MAGA is not happening. As far as a terrorist attack, that could certainly lead to much greater power in the hands of the government (something that I would think libertarians such as yourself would be opposed to) but I doubt it would ever lead to enough power to enforce the “solutions” for undocumented immigrants that you are proposing. So we’re back to this is an unworkable idea, never going to happen. These folks are here to stay, let’s come up with a solution that does not involve trying to deport all of them.

Neither were mine; that’s not what I’m talking about.

It’s not a lie. This land did exist for my grandparents. It continues to exist for millions of immigrants both documented and undocumented, and hopefully will continue to exist despite the efforts to dismantle it.

That is very cool.

Live that song. His dad wrote it right? Did you really know Arlo? Very cool, big fan.

Well not quite. I explain why it won’t work.

With regard to your first response: let me correct my thinking. Yes it is workable, theoretically, if we want to give up being a free society. Since I don’t, for me it’s unworkable. Beyond that it’s politically unworkable because you will never get enough of the public to allow you the 60 hardline Republicans in the Senate, a majority of hardline Republicans in the House, and a hardline Republican President, all in office at the same time, that would be necessary to pass such a plan.

Sorry guys it’s completely unworkable. Come up with all the plans you want, none of them are ever going to work. But the part that really depresses me is that anyone would find this a desirable goal to begin with. I agree, reluctantly, that we need to secure our borders because these people are coming in too large numbers at the present time. I agree, reluctantly, that we need to to tighten things up. But I hate it. It goes against everything America stands for, our whole purpose for being a nation. We’re supposed to be the New World, the refuge for people escaping poverty and slavery. That and that alone justified our seizing this land from the Indians. That and that alone justified our terrible actions over the years. We can’t have open borders. I get it. But for anyone to WANT to deport millions of people, to think that this is a desirable goal, for anyone who wants to send a message to the world’s wretched people that they’re not welcome here…I think some of you have lost sight of what it truly means to be an American. We might as well place a bomb on the Statue of Liberty and blow it up.

It’s like the leftists who magically believe they can pass a law making all guns illegal and they will just disappear. It’s the exact same logic.

I find it sad. They really think mass deportation would be a good thing and perfectly workable. They’re not living on the same planet.

Crazy talk. It’s delusional.

And yes I know Trump is planning on using the military for mass deportation and detention camps: https://www.washingtonpost.com/ And I know that some of you think this would be a good thing. But it’s unworkable and the public won’t ever put up with it. Our police and military aren’t Gestapo however much Trump might want them to be.

But it’s true isn’t it? If we have 15 million people here ( @Dizkneelande says a lot more) how are we to remove them?) You’re not a stupid guy; it’s an unrealistic goal.

No idea. I doubt it. But that $150k is a temporary number. Pretty soon that number will be reduced to practically zero, whereas the value will continue forever.

Again I don’t understand why you don’t seem to get that cutting off aid to these people will make things far worse. Give them a chance to get settled in, to start working, and they will create much more wealth for us than they cost the system initially. But if you fail to make this investment then you’re simply increasing everything you’re concerned about: poverty, crime, public health, and overall costs to our society.

Im actually not in favor of giving them citizenship. I think they should be given legal recognition, but not full citizenship. I don’t think anyone who comes here illegally should ever have the right to vote. But I do agree that giving them legal recognition would be a great economic boon to us.