The Real timschochet

Sorry you feel that way. I think all of the unnecessary deaths, hundreds of thousands of them, that have occurred because people refused to take the Covid vaccine, is pretty gross myself. But to each their own.

I didn’t. I wrote that undocumented immigrants who are veterans should be given veteran benefits. If they are not veterans I am still in favor of giving them whatever services are available but not at the expense of veterans. Do you have evidence of veterans being actually turned away? Or is this just conjecture? If they are actually being turned away that is wrong. But I’m skeptical that’s actually happened; please show me. Also why do you keep switching topics? How is this connected to anything we’ve been discussing?

Please make your argument why World War 3 would be more likely under a liberal President.

I used that phrase very specifically to describe Trump’s practice of overvaluing his properties. Hardcore pointed out, correctly, that many if not most wealthy property owners do this. But the amounts are relative: perhaps a 3 million dollar property is valued at 4 million, or an 8 million dollar building is valued at 12 million. But Trump did things like trying to make a 4 million dollar property valued at 50 million. That’s why I wrote that he was taking a common practice and carrying it to an extreme. Nothing psychopathic about my point.

Well first off, Navalny wasn’t just prosecuted for political reasons. He was also imprisoned, sent to a gulag, and murdered for political reasons. Thats quite a significant difference and it’s one of two reasons for my objection to this comparison. The second reason for my objection is that I strongly disagree with you that Donald Trump is being prosecuted for political reasons. I know he makes this claim and that a strong majority of Republican voters believe it. But that doesn’t make it true. If we examine the specific criminal charges against Trump, it’s hard to see how they were manufactured.

I would have fired them. https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/the-joe-biden-thread-things-are-looking-up.805384/post-24188962 OK. So if I understand you correctly, your objection is that I supported the government trying to compel people to take the Covid vaccine, and you regard that as a gross violation of civil liberties. Fair enough. My response, then and now, is that we don’t live in an anarchy. For individual rights to be protected we have to have a government to protect them. And public health has to be part of that government. We can and should require, for example, that all children attending public schools must receive polio and smallpox shots or they cannot attend, as they pose a public health risk to others. We can and should require that someone who has Ebola or other deadly, communicable disease, be forcibly quarantined. And so on. These measures are not designed to interfere with individual liberties but to protect them. In the case of the Covid vaccine you no doubt believe these measures were misapplied. I disagree with that. But even if you were right and I was wrong in that instance it still doesn’t make me totalitarian. The principle of public health and public safety as necessary for a free society to exist remains intact. So I have to reject your argument. Got any other examples?

No. And I’m troubled by that particular prosecution since I’m a member of that industry (not at Trump’s level of course) and pretty familiar with those practices. That being said, it certainly does sound like Trump took a common practice and carried it to extremes, so possibly what he did was worthy of prosecution. I’m not sure. But in any case that was done by the state of New York. It’s not a federal prosecution, and it’s civil, not criminal. It really has no bearing on your comparison of Trump to Navalny, which is what I am criticizing you for and what I find extremely offensive.

Can you be more specific about this? How is my worldview the antithesis to liberty? I’ve always regarded myself as a believer in capitalism, and I think the United States is the greatest country in human history. I’m about as anti-collectivist as it gets and never considered myself a good candidate for Borg membership. I’m a pretty big believer in individual rights. So there seems to be a strong disconnect here. What exactly am I missing? Please be specific.

A coincidence? No. Trump is being prosecuted for various crimes that he committed. If he had chosen not to run for President again he would still be charged for these crimes because he committed them. Beyond that you seem to agree with Trump that there is some kind of reasonable comparison between him and Navatny. I think that’s pretty offensive. It reminds me of black football players who, when they’re not paid enough, complain that they’re being lynched. Or AOC, who compared an immigrant detention center to Auschwitz. Some comparisons should not be made.

Military recruitment has declined on a yearly basis for several years before Biden took office. Unless, perhaps, you have some reason for believing that it has to do with Biden’s policies (and your reason is backed up by data?) Also, since you’re in this thread, would you care to answer my previous question? You mocked another poster for saying that Navatny was a hero and for wanting him to be President of Russia. Russia is a dictatorship run by a man who murders his opponents. Why wouldn’t you want a change there? Are you an opponent of freedom? If not please explain your mockery. Seriously I don’t understand.

OK. Your loss, too bad.

@Dizkneelande is unfortunately a name caller, and he doesn’t like me very much, but he does make interesting points that are worth responding to, so I did. You’re always welcome to do the same.

Yes I find what you bolded extremely compelling. Let’s get into this a little deeper: Following the fall of the Soviet Union, America was faced with the question of how we would respond to those nations under the yoke of Communist slavery seeking our help to become independent and free. We helped them with economic aid, including Ukraine and it was the right decision. Ukraine is a country extremely rich in natural resources, which is why Russia wants it back. Ukraine had not been an independent nation since about 1650. It’s certainly the most tragic country in all of Europe; I would argue that no other place on the globe had a worse 20th century. Stalin murdered about 10 million Ukrainians, Hitler another 3-4 million and created slave labor out of the rest. This was followed by another 45 years of sheer misery under the Soviet yoke. It’s amazing that there is an Ukraine left. Is it a perfect nation? Hardly. It’s been incredibly corrupt. It’s George Washington figure, Chmeltensky, is probably the worst murderer of Jews before the Nazis, and there is an anti-Semitic strain there that is worse than anywhere on Earth, despite the fact that the current leader is Jewish. Nonetheless, and despite all of the tragic history, the yearning for freedom there is as strong as anywhere. Is an independent Ukraine vital to our interests? If you study geopolitics it absolutely is. And yes it will shape our grandchildren’s lives because what happens in Europe affects us so greatly long term.

Obviously they’re not. I don’t use that term, it’s offensive. I do use the term MAGA to describe those conservatives who most closely share Donald Trump’s beliefs. Thats not meant to be offensive. Are most Republicans MAGA at this point? Judging from the primaries thus far it would be hard to argue otherwise. But I don’t know what the exact numbers are. In any case, not all Republicans are MAGA.

First off I don’t regard myself as a leftist. Most of the time I disagree with leftists. I am a liberal, again most of the time. On some issues I lean conservative. You may not think there is a difference between liberals and leftists, but there is one. Second I’m sorry that you reject the source I used. I used them because I find their arguments compelling, no other reason. If you disagree I’d love to hear why. Simply attacking the source doesn’t do much. I’ve done that too from time to time and it’s never a convincing argument. I also don’t believe the Ukraine issue is one between conservatives and liberals. The traditional conservative position of someone like Ronald Reagan would certainly be for helping Ukraine. Finally I’m sorry that you seem to have such negative feelings about me. It’s not mutual. Should you decide you want to participate in the actual discussion I would welcome it.

Just correct one point: I am not arguing that any amount we give is essentially free- I am rejecting the claim that we shouldn’t spend money HERE because we need to spend it THERE, whatever “here” and “there” are defined as. I’m only saying that each expenditure should be looked at separately by its own merits without regard to other expenditures that one might consider more important.

Back in October, American Progress offered 5 reasons we should support Ukraine as vital to American interests short and long term. I will link it here because I can’t improve on their arguments: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/5-reasons-why-congress-must-approve-aid-to-ukraine-right-away/#:~:text=Immediate assistance to Ukraine is,leadership in times of crisis.

No. Norman Fell lived in Beverly Hills. I have no family from upper state New York though I’ve been there.

Ah. OK, I still don’t know the details, but San Francisco has always had a very close connection with China, probably more so than any other American city, for historical reasons. Usually when you say “Chinese nationalist” that means someone originally from Taiwan. If so, I really wouldn’t worry about it but once again I don’t know the details.

On what board of elections? No idea what you’re referring to. It’s not a question I’ve ever considered frankly. Bur as a general rule, my main concern for anyone running anything is competence and integrity, if you have those Im not much concerned about any other factor.

Well I disagree with almost all of it. I don’t think Trump understood NATO at all. Nor do I think that America should ever concern ourselves with how much NATO countries contribute to their own defense, or to NATO, or to the Ukraine. I think that’s irrelevant. Our contribution to Ukraine or to any country or to any cause should be based on one underlying principle: does it benefit American safety and prosperity? (You see? Ultimately I believe in “America First”). In the case of funding Ukraine I say it clearly does. Now you agree that we should continue to fund Ukraine, except with conditions. But the important question for you then becomes, will the lack of these conditions cause you to oppose funding Ukraine? Myself, I don’t love the bill the Senate passed, for two reasons: first because I am opposed to helping Netanyahu’s government at this time unconditionally (separate issue we can discuss later.) Second because I rather agree with @Hardcore troubadour that money given to Ukraine should be specifically directed; we should understand and perhaps control what we are spending on better than we do now, possibly. But those two concerns do not cause me to oppose the Senate bill because the alternative is not helping Ukraine, which is a far worse result than my two concerns IMO. Do you see? So you need to answer the same question: does your conditional support mean that if you don’t get everything you want you will oppose helping Ukraine? Or are you willing to help them anyhow?

Except you just did. Guess I don’t need to beg after all. But you’re right, I’m hoping for serious responses. That after all is the point of this thread. If I don’t get them, no worries. Horseman, I wrote this is a clean slate and I meant it. I’m not paying attention to your previous posts in response to me, or about me, and if you want to continue to attack me that’s fine. I would think there are probably better ways to spend your time but hey it’s your nickel. But if you ever want to have a serious conversation about issues I’m open to it. That goes for everyone reading this. If you don’t, that’s cool.

For those who might have missed this part.

Thanks for raising another topic. Are you making some kind of criticism here? Personally I would have loved to have seen Navaldy as head of Russia. Wouldn’t you? Wouldn’t any freedom loving American? Serious question please respond.

I don’t believe my posts on this subject are illogical or inconsistent (or wrong for that matter.) If some of you do, or think that I’m not worth your time, fine with me. No need for you to keep responding. Or if you’re tired of this subject, feel free to bring up something else. I’m open to other topics.