The Real timschochet

We disagree.

What I said originally was that we have a military presence in the Middle East primarily because our economy depends on the stability of oil flowing from that region. That remains true despite your figures noting the decline over time. I think we can all agree that in the long run it would be to our benefit not to have to rely on stability from such a volatile part of the Earth. Which is one major reason, beyond climate change, why developing a viable alternative to petroleum is so necessary.

Yet my original statement was in response to the conservative narrative made in this thread. So I didn’t move the goalposts.

Not at all. I’m a realist. And I don’t overpay if I can help it. We could, theoretically, significantly reduce the deficit immediately. We could, theoretically, completely stop almost all illegal immigration pretty quickly and deport all of the illegals already here. We have the ability to do these things. But IMO in both instances the price is far too high, way exceeding the benefit, and so I don’t choose to pay it. That doesn’t make a defeatist.

Sure. But oil is a global commodity. So if the amount of oil coming from, for example, the Strait of Hormuz becomes threatened, the price of the oil we buy from Canada goes way up.

We are not a nation of defeatists. We are great at innovation: the Manhattan Project, the space program. But there are certain things we don’t do well: the war on poverty, the war on drugs. We’re not great at changing human behavior. I remain very much a believer in American exceptionalism.

OK. If your figures are correct then I was wrong about that. But the common conservative narrative that Biden is to blame for slowing down oil production is also wrong.

The grownups in here are trying to have a serious conversation. Go back to the kids table.

This is the best argument I’ve read yet. The problem with these discussions, always, is that the sample size is too small, and that as important as the QB is, the team around him needs to play well. You could have added that until Peyton Manning got his first ring, he was also largely considered a choker in the big games, especially when Tom Brady was on the other side.

Actually I’m not blaming Trump for the deficit. He ignored it and increased it, but that’s no different from every other President in living memory. But I’m not giving him credit for trying to reduce it either, which some have done here. Thats laughable. And I’m certainly not going to entertain the argument that somehow Republicans are more responsible on this issue than Democrats because that’s absurd. Neither party has shown any fiscal responsibility whatsoever and that’s because they will lose elections if they do and they know it. We’re going to have to live with this problem. It’s so large that at this point it’s basically unfixable because the American people will never accept the cost involved. So we had better hope our economy keeps growing because that’s all we have.

I strongly disagree with you about how Biden is perceived around the world vs the previous President. But the purpose of this thread wasn’t to bash Biden OR Trump. My question was how we should respond to this current event.

The narrative that Biden somehow decreased oil production from what it was under Trump is obviously untrue.

The numbers you’re posting here are all higher under Biden. So I don’t understand your point.

These are isolationist thoughts that have no bearing on reality.

Cutting foreign aid creates instability which would actually increase the need for military spending. In addition it would create far more refugees and people swarming our borders even more than we have now. Foreign aid is one of our best investments; it’s literally pennies on the dollar:

But I keep providing links. Look above. I asked him to prove me wrong because my position on this issue isn’t really all that controversial, or even challenged by economists. You can’t reduce the deficit unless you’re willing to tackle military spending, Social Security, Medicare, or raise taxes. Thats it. There are no alternatives to this. You can try to grow the economy. How to do that is more debatable. I offered my solutions.

1. It wouldn’t, it would generate far less revenue: https://itep.org/the-pitfalls-of-flat-income-taxes/#:~:text=Contrary to the claims of,during times of rising inequality. 3. Foreign aid is less than 1% of the budget: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid#:~:text=In actuality%2C less than 1,budget goes towards foreign aid.

You need to read through this thread again. I don’t bring up Trump. Trump has been no worse on this issue than any other President.

Which part? How about some links refuting it?

He didn’t. Not in any meaningful way. He wanted to cut a few programs he didn’t like.

There isn’t enough useless fat that, if it were all removed, would make any difference whatsoever in the deficit or debt. And a flat tax would result in less annual revenue which would only increase the deficit. I gave you the 5 ways to address this problem. There aren’t any others.

Thank you. Thats from his first year before he got his tax cut through, which significantly increased the deficit. And his cuts were insignificant. Trump made no move to seriously address this issue. To be fair, no other President has either.

More on Biden and oil production: https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/09/business/oil-production-biden-trump/index.html https://www.krtv.com/the-us-hits-record-oil-production-levels-under-biden-administration This argument that Trump did more than Biden on this issue is simply the opposite of the actual facts.

Can you link one please? Thanks

This just doesn’t match the facts. Biden has pursued energy independence far more than Trump has. But it won’t make any difference.