Deion Branch

[Boston 0]

I didn't say they don't value WRs. I didn't say BB writes off the position. I said they don't value WRs especially highly. Sheesh. And the examples you listed are not evidence to the contrary.

Ok, if you answered it earlier, then I missed it.

I didn't say it's unfair. I know how the system works. I'm a big believer that teams should have the better end of contracts just as often as players do.

I don't need all the generic explanations of how the Patriots handle the salary cap. This is getting really, really tedious. We're all in agreement here as to how the Patriots would like this to play out. I'm just not as convinced as you are that the team has hand over the player in this particular case. Players gain some amount of leverage when the team needs them, and the Patriots do need Branch.

 

We can agree to disagree on both points.

[t.j 35]

which brings us full circle in this argument.

 

this really is a non-issue. Branch, despite being underpaid, will be playing for New England this year because he doesn't have the leverage to hold out for very long.

 

thank you for playing.

 

Um, you're welcome? In my first post: "In general, I agree with you and Boston that most likely this whole thing will pass quietly and Branch will end up playing out his deal."

 

We're all pretty much in agreement as to how this will turn out. There are still plenty of interesting angles to the story: Is it stupid to hold out for a short period of time? What was he thinking? What would have happened if he didn't hold out? What would be the impact for the Pats if they caved and gave him a bump or an extension? And that's why we are all gathered here today. No need to be an ass with the "Thank you for playing" line.

[TD Ryan2 316]

only made $2.5M. LOL. So if he holds out from now until the start of preseason, that's about $50,000. That's pretty much chump change compared to the $2.5M he's made and the $1.15M he would still make this year when he returns. I rest my case, he's in no rush to get back.

 

 

and keep going t.j.

 

keep figuring out how much, just in fines, that $5k/day will add up to once pre-season starts...

 

you're talking $150k just for August (plus the $50k he's already lost in off season camp).

$200k in fines isn't chump change for a guy that's ONLY made 2.5 mil.

 

And I don't know if there's any other penalties or if the fines get steeper once the season starts.

 

 

. No need to be an ass with the "Thank you for playing" line.

 

 

it was fairly civil until you arrived... par for the course.

[t.j 35]

and keep going t.j.

 

keep figuring out how much, just in fines, that $5k/day will add up to once pre-season starts...

 

No TD Ryan, I don't want to keep going. You keep on insisting on discussing this holdout as if it's going to jeopardize Branch's season and pocketbook. I see it as something that Branch can and will end whenever he wants to. Does he stand to gain anything from it? From all accounts here, most likely not, but you yourself said you'd like to see them give him a bump, so who knows, maybe it will happen.

[t.j 35]

it was fairly civil until you arrived... par for the course.

 

I've considered this statement and decided that there is some truth to it, since I did rip on the thread starter in my first post. That said, your comment was nevertheless unwarranted: After I dogged hines86rules for hating on Jerry Rice, I posted a heck of a lot of civil posts. If you want to make it personal at this point then I'll bid you and this thread aideu.

[TD Ryan2 316]

I've considered this statement and decided that there is some truth to it, since I did rip on the thread starter in my first post. That said, your comment was nevertheless unwarranted: After I dogged hines86rules for hating on Jerry Rice, I posted a heck of a lot of civil threads. If you want to make it personal at this point then I'll bid you and this thread aideu.

 

 

I'm sorry.

seriously.

 

I went back and read the stuff you posted... it wasnt' as bad as I thought... a little bit of an edge but my comment pushed it a step further.

 

you were just challenging Boston and my points.

we all pretty much agree on the larger point(s).

 

[t.j 35]

Thanks. There was good discussion on both sides. Often it's hard for people to get on the same page about what the key point is, and that results in an edge. to you.

[nickthegreekdog 0]

My question is this: why wouldn't the Pats want to pay a little premium for a young, improving wideout that can be on the team for years instead of making him angry so that he will never resign with the Pats? What if Branch plays with the team this year, catches 85 passes for 1200 yards and 10 TDs? The Pats will be paying a premium for him after the season, or else letting him go. I say pay him now while his value is still at a lower level than it will likely be after the 2006 season. The Pats retain a good player, possibly great, make him happy, and spend less money on him now than they would in the future.

[TD Ryan2 316]

My question is this: why wouldn't the Pats want to pay a little premium for a young, improving wideout that can be on the team for years instead of making him angry so that he will never resign with the Pats? What if Branch plays with the team this year, catches 85 passes for 1200 yards and 10 TDs? The Pats will be paying a premium for him after the season, or else letting him go. I say pay him now while his value is still at a lower level than it will likely be after the 2006 season. The Pats retain a good player, possibly great, make him happy, and spend less money on him now than they would in the future.

 

 

we all want to see him paid and retained for the future.

 

I guess I can't really answer your question on why the Pats haven't paid him because we don't know how close the two sides are in the negotiations; and I'm guessing that they're pretty far off right now.

 

Keep in mind that some so-so WRs (like Randle El) just signed big money deals... that MAY be what Branch is looking for and neither the NE brass or (most) of the NE fans want to see the team spend that kind of money.

 

Your projections for Branch are a bit generous too: 85, 1200, 10TDs would be one of the greatest seasons of any NE WR ever. The 10 TD mark would be the most difficult to achieve for the diminutive Branch; he's not a posession/goal line WR. The 85 catch and 1200 yards more attainable but getting to two or more of those plateaus in the same season would be remarkable.

 

which to me means that NE isn't worrying that they'll have to pony up money for a 85 catch, 1200 yard, 10 TD WR because it's so unlikely that Branch will ever hit that triple crown (even more unlikely with NE's spread the ball philosophy).

 

and please don't misunderstand this NE fan.

Branch is by all accounts a good guy, a team guy, and he's a talented WR that NE needs (especially this season). There's no question that he's underpaid for what he's produced and I don't blame him for wanting to secure his financial future. Hopefully the team and player can come to an agreement that works for both sides (and I do believe they will).

[t.j 35]

Your projections for Branch are a bit generous too: 85, 1200, 10TDs would be one of the greatest seasons of any NE WR ever. The 10 TD mark would be the most difficult to achieve for the diminutive Branch; he's not a posession/goal line WR. The 85 catch and 1200 yards more attainable but getting to two or more of those plateaus in the same season would be remarkable.

 

which to me means that NE isn't worrying that they'll have to pony up money for a 85 catch, 1200 yard, 10 TD WR because it's so unlikely that Branch will ever hit that triple crown (even more unlikely with NE's spread the ball philosophy).

 

I agree that that's high projection, although it's not that far-fetched for a "what if?" The numbers may be high among NE's history, but NE hasn't had Tom Brady most of their history. Those numbers would have placed him 9th in the NFL last year. (1 ppr, 1 pt per 10 yds, 6 pts per TD.) That ranking seems attainable for a clear #1 WR in a good offense, and with a good rapport with his QB. I also agree that the 10 TDs is the most unlikely part, but Steve Smith is the same size and managed to catch 12 TDs last year, after having a career-high of 7 prior to that. Branch is not Smith, but I'm just saying.

 

That said, if the Pats are really worried about Branch having a top 10 WR year and asking for top 10 WR money, they can always subtly alter their game plan to reduce his role... I don't know if the Pats do stuff like that but it definitely happens in the NFL.

[TD Ryan2 316]

That said, if the Pats are really worried about Branch having a top 10 WR year and asking for top 10 WR money, they can always subtly alter their game plan to reduce his role... I don't know if the Pats do stuff like that but it definitely happens in the NFL.

 

no doubt it happens.

 

I'd be curious what NE did with Branch's bonus/incentives last year. It is reported that Branch had a 1,000 yard bonus in his contract last year... a bonus he would have reached had his 6yd reception in week 17 not been called back on a penalty (Branch finished with 998yds). Did NE give him the bonus? It's probably not a lot of money but little things like that can set the tone for future negotiations.

[t.j 35]

Did NE give him the bonus? It's probably not a lot of money but little things like that can set the tone for future negotiations.

 

Yeah, I remember the Cowboys giving Michael Irvin his bonus when he was close to an incentive but they wanted to sit him so that he could stay healthy for the playoffs.

[TD Ryan2 316]

you mentioned Branch's rapport with Brady and some local writers think that's one of the best thing Branch has going for him right now.

Publicly, Brady took the high road claiming "this is the business side of things, yada, yada" but then he did follow up those comments with "of course I want him here, I love Deion like his Mom loves him"

 

there's speculation that off the record/under that radar, Brady is pushing the NE Brass to get Branch taken care of.

[nickthegreekdog 0]

I agree that that's high projection, although it's not that far-fetched for a "what if?" The numbers may be high among NE's history, but NE hasn't had Tom Brady most of their history. Those numbers would have placed him 9th in the NFL last year. (1 ppr, 1 pt per 10 yds, 6 pts per TD.) That ranking seems attainable for a clear #1 WR in a good offense, and with a good rapport with his QB. I also agree that the 10 TDs is the most unlikely part, but Steve Smith is the same size and managed to catch 12 TDs last year, after having a career-high of 7 prior to that. Branch is not Smith, but I'm just saying.

 

That said, if the Pats are really worried about Branch having a top 10 WR year and asking for top 10 WR money, they can always subtly alter their game plan to reduce his role... I don't know if the Pats do stuff like that but it definitely happens in the NFL.

 

I was doing a "what if," not a projection, as t.j. mentions. I haven't done my projections yet. I don't believe any team would consciously alter their game plan to reduce a player's role to pay him less. The team wants to win. They will, however, bench him if he's being a jagoff (a la Meshawn, TO).

 

I don't think Branch is necessarily a top 10 WR, though he fits the mold of the new smurfs (a la Steve Smith, Santana Moss). I think the Pats definitely need him. While they are a defensive team, they have (except for the one year Dillon ran all over people... 2004) always been a passing team. I think they need to have good WRs like Branch, and, frankly, they don't have anyone else... whether Branch plays this year or not... for 2007 and beyond. Trust me, as an Eagles fan, not having receivers is not a good way to go and Belichik will feel it whether he's a great coach or not.

 

Irregardless, I say the Pats should overpay for him now if they think he's going to improve. If not, they should do exactly what they're doing (or... stand PAT if you will), especially if they think he's best years are behind him (a la the Eagles strategy).

[Boston 0]

My question is this: why wouldn't the Pats want to pay a little premium for a young, improving wideout that can be on the team for years instead of making him angry so that he will never resign with the Pats? What if Branch plays with the team this year, catches 85 passes for 1200 yards and 10 TDs? The Pats will be paying a premium for him after the season, or else letting him go. I say pay him now while his value is still at a lower level than it will likely be after the 2006 season. The Pats retain a good player, possibly great, make him happy, and spend less money on him now than they would in the future.

 

Not to bust nads but this post is irrelevant until you know the numbers both sides are looking at. Branch could be looking for top five money or the Pats could be looking to lowball him. Until you know the numbers you can't simply say the Pats should resign him right now (although in theory I agree signing him early should be cheaper but we just don't know that right now). There's no question that the Pats are a better team with Branch on the field. That's not up for debate. Yet, football isn't like baseball. There is a salary cap and you need to budget your money or you'll get caught with your pants down in a year or two.

 

The bottomline is there are two factors here for the Pats...the team and the organization. I look at the team as a short term entity and the organization as a long term entity. If you simply open up the wallet for the good of the team (i.e. short term success) the organization (i.e. long term succcess) will be put in jeopardy. You need to find a middle a ground. That would be a contract that makes Branch a rich man, helps the team and puts the organization in a position to continue suceeding. If you simply look at helping the team you'll eventually pay the piper and go into cap hell as we have seen other teams do as they focused more on the team than the organization.

[nickthegreekdog 0]

The bottomline is there are two factors here for the Pats...the team and the organization. I look at the team as a short term entity and the organization as a long term entity. If you simply open up the wallet for the good of the team (i.e. short term success) the organization (i.e. long term succcess) will be put in jeopardy. You need to find a middle a ground. That would be a contract that makes Branch a rich man, helps the team and puts the organization in a position to continue suceeding. If you simply look at helping the team you'll eventually pay the piper and go into cap hell as we have seen other teams do as they focused more on the team than the organization.

 

I agree completely. I don't know the numbers and you're definitely right about team vs. organization. Like I said, as an Eagles fan we get that all the time. But, I would worry about the team (like we always do in Philly) over the organization because it's a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately kind of league. I don't know the Pats cap numbers, and I don't necessarily think that Branch is the be-all, end-all of wideouts. But, you might not get a guy like him in free agency in 07 and chad jackson is not going to tear up the field this year or most likely next year.

 

All that being said, it doesn't matter because Branch will likely (as in 99%) play this season. It's just fun to talk about.

[Team Revell 1]

I think Deion Branch saw what happened to Javon Walker last year and took notes.

 

Jerry Rice- like Favre last season- should mind his own f#cking business.

 

After watching the Pats in particular cut numerous high priced vets before their contracts were up, you are retarded to expect a player to not try to get as much $$$ as he can while he can.

[Boston 0]

I think Deion Branch saw what happened to Javon Walker last year and took notes.

 

Jerry Rice- like Favre last season- should mind his own f#cking business.

 

After watching the Pats in particular cut numerous high priced vets before their contracts were up, you are retarded to expect a player to not try to get as much $$$ as he can while he can.

 

Since the Milloy incident the only two big names the Pats cut were Willie and Law (I believe Traylor may have been let go as was Antowain but that was a performance issue). Both of these guys had phony last year numbers (i.e. ridiculously high cap numbers) so it was not a surprise both got axed although the fact they did not resign Willie was a surprise. The Pats actually made an attempt to redo Law's deal but he turned it down even though it would have been the best offer he received. Outside of that Andruzzi, Woody, Givens, Chatham, AV, Patten, Ashworth, Fauria, Washington and Hamilton all finished out a deal and did not resign.