Draft pick trades in keeper leagues

[chroniciguana 13]

We're moving from one keeper to two keepers this year. This change has sparked interest in a few pre-draft trades. The have-nots are looking to trade draft picks to those who have more than two legit first- or second-rounders on their rosters.

 

The question: How do other leagues handle this?

 

My position is that anything goes. Others want the league to somehow regulate or restrict these trades. And, of course, there are a few who are outright opposed to the idea - but they can't seem to explain why.

 

We're venturing into new territory - for us, that is. It would be helpful to be able to give the reluctant owners a little insight into how it's done elsewhere. Although the commish can mandate whatever he wants (the votes to override him aren't there and he's on board with anything goes), we try to avoid this whenever possible.

 

Thoughts?

[shutdown 40]

We're moving from one keeper to two keepers this year. This change has sparked interest in a few pre-draft trades. The have-nots are looking to trade draft picks to those who have more than two legit first- or second-rounders on their rosters.

 

The question: How do other leagues handle this?

 

My position is that anything goes. Others want the league to somehow regulate or restrict these trades. And, of course, there are a few who are outright opposed to the idea - but they can't seem to explain why.

 

We're venturing into new territory - for us, that is. It would be helpful to be able to give the reluctant owners a little insight into how it's done elsewhere. Although the commish can mandate whatever he wants (the votes to override him aren't there and he's on board with anything goes), we try to avoid this whenever possible.

 

Thoughts?

 

We are in a single keeper league and do the same thing. We only have a couple of rules.

 

1) No trades can be made until after keepers have been declared. This helps keep teams on a somewhat level field. For example, we have one team with Aaron Rogers and Jamaal Charles. He cannot trade Charles and keep Rogers. He has to declare one of them as his keeper before being able to trade the player for pick(s). If not, you are technically allowing a team to "keep" more than the allotted number of players by trading one for a draft pick. This feels like it violates the keeper limit to me.

 

2) All teams have to fill a full roster via keepers and drafting. We have a 17 man roster so every team has to finish with 17 players after the draft. It just means having to throw some lower round picks back sometimes to balance out a deal.

 

Other than that, we have the typical "trade must be beneficial to both teams" evaluation clause just to keep someone from trading Mike Vick for a 10th round pick to his buddy.

[chroniciguana 13]

 

1) No trades can be made until after keepers have been declared.

 

Other than that, we have the typical "trade must be beneficial to both teams" evaluation clause just to keep someone from trading Mike Vick for a 10th round pick to his buddy.

 

To clarify your first rule. Would I be able to shop Charles around prior to the draft, even to the point where I have a deal in my pocket prior to sitting down at the table? If so, the rule - if I'm reading you right - would seem to allow me to declare Rodgers as my keeper, then announce the pre-arranged Charles trade. Or do you forbid trade talk prior to keepers being declared. If so, not sure how this could really be enforced.

 

Collusion isn't an issue in our league. We're lucky to have 12 owners who pretty much hate each other's guts and would be hard-pressed to conspire to take a piss in a boot.

[vamosvaqueros 0]

We're moving from one keeper to two keepers this year. This change has sparked interest in a few pre-draft trades. The have-nots are looking to trade draft picks to those who have more than two legit first- or second-rounders on their rosters.

 

The question: How do other leagues handle this?

 

My position is that anything goes. Others want the league to somehow regulate or restrict these trades. And, of course, there are a few who are outright opposed to the idea - but they can't seem to explain why.

 

We're venturing into new territory - for us, that is. It would be helpful to be able to give the reluctant owners a little insight into how it's done elsewhere. Although the commish can mandate whatever he wants (the votes to override him aren't there and he's on board with anything goes), we try to avoid this whenever possible.

 

Thoughts?

 

My league had the same dilemma this off-season. We've been a keeper league for 3 years, but just never ended up trading picks. Not sure what made the change this year, but everybody started asking about contingencies and "If I traded this, could I then do this" etc. The stickiest part was that we lose a draft pick for a keeper, so I couldn't trade my #1 pick and then keep somebody with #1 value.

 

Here's what we ended up with:

-Trades may include picks and players and any combination thereof

-Trades may be made at any point; before/during keeper declarations and the draft

-Players traded MUST be kept by somebody

---I can keep a guy and then trade him to you (I still lose my draft pick, though)(value I get back is much higher, since I lost a draft pick)

---I can trade you a guy and then you keep him (value is lower since I'm basically off-loading somebody I wasn't going to keep anyway)

-You must have the pick to keep a player at that value (i.e. I can't keep AP and trade my 1st rounder)

[chroniciguana 13]

Why would you lose a draft pick if you traded player for player (aka, keeper for keeper) prior to the draft? What would stop me from trading you Jones for Smith, then trading Smith away for a draft pick or picks - as long as I still had the required number of keepers and we both wound up with full rosters?

 

Our guys are having trouble with the notion that I can trade a top RB - one who would be a first or second round pick in a non-keeper league - for a bonus third round pick (actually the fifth round in a non-keeper league). They argue that if Jones has an ADP of 2.x, then I should be required to get a 2.x draft pick in return. Except there is no 2.x. With two keepers, you theoretically begin your draft at 3.0. And a second rounder is really a fourth rounder. Or something.

 

The other argument, incredibly, is that by taking away your third round pick, I help myself and hurt you. Duh. Or that by giving you a hypothetical first-rounder who I'm going to lose regardless, I'm hurting myself and helping you. Huh? Or that the guy drafting at 1.1 is technically getting three keepers (true, sort of) so he should only be allowed one(?).

 

And most of these guys somehow got through four years of college.

[shutdown 40]

To clarify your first rule. Would I be able to shop Charles around prior to the draft, even to the point where I have a deal in my pocket prior to sitting down at the table? If so, the rule - if I'm reading you right - would seem to allow me to declare Rodgers as my keeper, then announce the pre-arranged Charles trade. Or do you forbid trade talk prior to keepers being declared. If so, not sure how this could really be enforced.

 

Collusion isn't an issue in our league. We're lucky to have 12 owners who pretty much hate each other's guts and would be hard-pressed to conspire to take a piss in a boot.

 

 

Yes, I do allow the owners to shop players so teams can plan on who the are going to keep to make a trade possible. But I don't execute any trades until after the keeper declaration, but the owners can have a deal in place that I'll force them to honor if they agree to it.

 

We declare keepers 1 week prior to the draft so you can't keep him in your pocket up until draft day. In my league, the Charles/Rodgers owner will have to declare one or the other. If he's worked out a deal to trade Charles, he has to release Rodgers. If not, he'd essentially have two keepers, one he traded and one he actually kept. This would put him at an advantage over the rest of the league.

 

We've never had a collusion issue either, but I always document how it would be handled just in case...

[Evil Genius 0]

I am the Commish of a 5-Keeper Keeper League.

 

For one thing, the Commish approves all trades - I am only policing for bullcrap and collusion. This weeds out any nonsense.

 

Second, our Keep rules that you must forsake a 1st round pick for your first keeper, 2nd round pick for your 2nd keeper etc. To keep someone in the second round, you must keep someone in the 1st round, etc.

 

There are a handfull of round-specific keeps (like you can keep a D/ST in Round 10 - never happens), but Keepers are not relative to where you drafted them last year.

 

Keepers are due on June 1st. During NFL playoffs, even after the SuperBowl leading up to June 1st, there are many trades involving Fantasy Draft picks. There are no rules limiting these. You could conceivably trade away your 1st round pick, but it would be suicide - you could not keep anyone you got in return and would destroy your subsequent draft.

 

95% of trades involving picks are for 6th round picks or lower (just below the Keep threshold). For example, I had 'too many Keepers' on my team this year, mostly because I had Arian Foster come out of nowhere on my team. So, after the Fantasy season was over, I traded him for a 6th and an 8th round pick. This might seem like not a lot, but actually it is tons. It means the other Owner gets Foster, and declares him as a Keeper, but he gives up several crucial pieces of his Draft position to do so.

 

In the off-season, there are always picks being thrown around as guys try to solidify their keepers, with 6th to 9th round picks being thrown around frequently. A couple extra rules:

 

- you are not obligated to Keep anyone, even after trading players for picks or vice versa, in any combination

- after the June 1st declaration, you may still trade away players and picks, until 24hrs before the draft, but if you acquire a player at this point, he must be kept.

- you may trade players and/or picks during the Draft itself

- if you traded away picks such that you are short, your Draft finishes short and you must fill using FA/WW

- if you have extra picks, you may use a two player practice squad to carry the extra player(s) up to and including Week 5 of the season

 

There is a huge advantage to having extra picks, and getting to carry the PS.

 

A typical season looks like this:

 

Draft in late June. Trading and Free Agency are then opened, once rosters are loaded.

Around Week 7 or 8, some teams are suffering, while others are doing well. Losing teams begin to offer middle-ground players and underachievers for Draft picks to the contenders. The contenders part with picks to shore up their line-ups for the playoff run.

 

Week 10: trade deadline. The fire-sales are on. Yet,really top end guys don't move because regardless of how poor you are doing, you cannot sell away your true Keepers - you would be killing your future to part with your top four guys.

 

Week 17 and onward: Teams with 6 or more solid Keepers 'sell' the Keepers to other teams, getting middle-round picks in return.

Last year I got a 7th rounder for Bowe and a 9th rounder for Blount. Better to get that than throw them back in and get nothing. The guy who gives me the pick analyzes the potential Draft Board and realizes the odds of having said player fall to them in the 6th round or beyond, and makes the sacrifice to make sure they get.

 

We Draft worst to first, for the 1st nine rounds, and serpentine after that. It works great. The team who finishes last generally throws everyone back in and drafts alone in Rounds 1-3, maybe 4 and 5 too, getting top choice of everyone thrown back in. The low finishers grab at the young RBs, potential break-outs and rookies, trying to catch the next big thing. If you draft well from the head position, it is never more than a two-year turn around into contention.

 

This year, the lead man drafted Ingram, Bradford, Freeman, Wallace and Daniel Thomas in Rounds 1-5 by himself. He's then traded Freeman, Bradford and Wallace for Gates and Brees, and his team looks like it could win this year.

 

If your league has too-few Keepers, none of these dynamics can work. One-keeper? Why bother? The point of a Keeper league is to reward good team management, and drag some success from one year to the next, half way between a Dynasty and a Redraft. If you don't make the Keepers deep enough to do so, you're making a mess of it, and asking for trouble.

 

For one thing, the non-Keepers being thrown around in a 1-player keep are HUGE - players that can make or break your season. With Keepers in the 4-8 range, the players and picks that get thrown around are less likely to individually king-make another squad, provided that keepers are contingent on sacrificing the first picks of the Draft. Trying to get 5 keepers that together, have more production than what I could Draft from a given position, is key to success.

 

Case in point: If I have a solid team, and I get Colston at the trade deadline, it makes me better, sure - but not so much that everyone is quivering. Conversely, if I have All-Day, and I manipulate the Keeper rules to get Foster in the first round of drafting, then I am a force to be reckoned with - and everyone wants to kill the trading thing.

 

Better design = less monkey business and more trading fun.

[chroniciguana 13]

There were a few of us who wanted to make the jump to three keepers - for many of the reasons you've explained. No go. But we're gradually getting there. Hopefully, if we can do the two keeper thing this year without anyone dying, the league will come around to three keepers in 2012.

[We Tigers 71]

Why would you lose a draft pick if you traded player for player (aka, keeper for keeper) prior to the draft? What would stop me from trading you Jones for Smith, then trading Smith away for a draft pick or picks - as long as I still had the required number of keepers and we both wound up with full rosters?

 

Our guys are having trouble with the notion that I can trade a top RB - one who would be a first or second round pick in a non-keeper league - for a bonus third round pick (actually the fifth round in a non-keeper league). They argue that if Jones has an ADP of 2.x, then I should be required to get a 2.x draft pick in return. Except there is no 2.x. With two keepers, you theoretically begin your draft at 3.0. And a second rounder is really a fourth rounder. Or something.

 

The other argument, incredibly, is that by taking away your third round pick, I help myself and hurt you. Duh. Or that by giving you a hypothetical first-rounder who I'm going to lose regardless, I'm hurting myself and helping you. Huh? Or that the guy drafting at 1.1 is technically getting three keepers (true, sort of) so he should only be allowed one(?).

 

And most of these guys somehow got through four years of college.

This is basically what was just introduced to my 3-keeper league. Waiting to see how it shakes out. Basically, this format seems to reward just about anyone who participates in the pre-keeper trading, whether they're the ones getting good players or better picks, while folks who sit back miss out on bonus benefits.

[ChromeWeasel 0]

We're moving from one keeper to two keepers this year. This change has sparked interest in a few pre-draft trades. The have-nots are looking to trade draft picks to those who have more than two legit first- or second-rounders on their rosters.

 

The question: How do other leagues handle this?

 

My position is that anything goes. Others want the league to somehow regulate or restrict these trades. And, of course, there are a few who are outright opposed to the idea - but they can't seem to explain why.

 

We're venturing into new territory - for us, that is. It would be helpful to be able to give the reluctant owners a little insight into how it's done elsewhere. Although the commish can mandate whatever he wants (the votes to override him aren't there and he's on board with anything goes), we try to avoid this whenever possible.

 

Thoughts?

 

Keeper picks should costs something. We used to have each keeper cost a team its first available draft slot, with up to 4 keepers allowed. So if you keep 1, you lose round 1. If you keep 3, you lose picks in rounds 1, 2, and 3. Now we charge you a draft spot based on the round of your keeper from last year, -2 rounds. So if you draft a player in round 5, he is a 3rd round keeper. Anything at round 3 or higher is a 1st round keeper. We allow 3 keepers now.

 

Trading is suspended at week 12 of the regular season and all through the offseason. We then allow for trades ON DRAFT DAY before keeper picks are selected. You can trade anything you want for the current draft, and with the players on your roster from last season. Then we declare keepers. So you can swap keeper players for picks with someone if you want, for the current season only. Once keepers are declared you can trade anything you want again, picks and players for the current season. Once the draft is over you can only trade players until week 12.

 

We have a lot of player movement on draft day and nothing gets out of hand this way.

[vamosvaqueros 0]

Why would you lose a draft pick if you traded player for player (aka, keeper for keeper) prior to the draft?

 

You don't lost a pick as a penalty. Somebody has to keep the player, so somebody whether it's before or after the trade, needs to declare him as a keeper. In our league, declaring a keeper means you lose a draft pick (put simply: where he was drafted last year, we have some other rules, but basically that). So if we wanted to trade Chris Johnson for Arian Foster, there would be no picks exchanged but we would both keep them for their respective value after the trade.

 

My point was that I can't keep Adrian Peterson (a #1 value) and THEN trade somebody my first round pick. I can't make the trade since I technically don't have a first rounder anymore. Conversely, I can't trade my first rounder and THEN keep Adrian Peterson.

 

Hope that clears up what I meant

[schmitty34 2]

We keep 3 players based on the round they were originally selected. We can make trades, but they have to involve players that are kept.

 

So....If I keep 3 guys but still have some really nice keepers on my roster, I can't trade those leftovers for extra picks. I would love that because I have a lot of potential keepers with great value but the only players under my control this season and eligible for trades would be the 3 I keep.