NFL fumble double standard? Bush no gain / Battle 3 yd loss

[bomza 0]

I looked earlier for an explanation as to why Bush, in losing at least 5 to 6 yards for N.O. Sunday before he fumbled 6 more yards behind the line of scrimmage, did not get at least 5 to 6 yards taken off his rushing total for the day (if not 12), while getting credit for a rushing attempt for "no gain", and I got these answers...

 

Pats Rule! said...

"When Bush fumbled the ball and the other team recovered, there is no loss of yardage because the ball is no longer NO's...instead it is credited as a lost fumble. It's the same thing regardless of where he fumbled the ball. If he had a 80 yard run, and then fumbled it would still be a rush for no gain because there is no gain to NO...instead there is a lost fumble. For the record, the same goes with quarterbacks throwing an interception...if they throw a bomb for 60 yards and it gets picked, they don't get the 60 yards added onto their pass yardage...instead, it's a pass attempt and an interception."

 

And matt g from Yahoo.Com said...

"If he fumbled the ball out of bounds or gets the ball back, then its however many yards he lost. but if its a fumble lost, its just considered a FL and no gain its just how we've always scored it."

 

Ok, this makes sense, except that if a QB throws a pass to a receiver, and it's completed, and the receiver fumbles the ball to the other team, the QB IS STILL GIVEN THE YARDAGE FOR THAT COMPLETION ATTEMPT AS IS THE WR. I checked various box scores and play-by-plays, and this is indeed the case. So why then is a QB and a WR's yardage counted in the box score when there is a fumble by the WR, but when there is a rushing attempt by the RB and a fumble, the RB's yardage is not counted? Why the double standard for RB's or rushing attempts vs. passing attempts in the NFL in counting yardage when there is a fumble involved?

 

UPDATE: 12/8/07 5:25am

But now it turns out, these two guys are wrong. Check out the next post in this thread where I mention that Arnaz Battle got minus 3 yards rushing on a fumble of his from just last Sunday's game on a similar reverse to the one Bush tried. Battle gets minus 3 yards in box score, but Bush gets "no gain"?

[Thornton Melon 544]

I don't know.

[FSW Mephisto 0]

I don't know.

[idiotekniQues 0]

the space-time continuum just exploded into itsy bitsy pieces

[bomza 0]

And why did the only person who SEEMED to know what he was talking about before, only show up on the Yahoo message board between 4 and 4:30am in the morning? And why was this the ONLY response he put up on the message board all day? Alien from another planet?

 

And why is this such a difficult question? One would think with all the fumbles in the NFL and with how long fantasy football scoring has been going on that someone would have brought it up before. And why would the brain at Yahoo!.Com simply say,"its just how we've always scored it." It sounds like an answer to "Why do you drink water from the toilet? Uhh, because, I don't know, we've just always drank it from there."

 

Why, man, why? There must be a reason other than to screw me out of a win last week and a playoff berth this year.

 

"A planet where apes evolved from men? THERE'S GOTTA BE AN ANSWER!"

[tbone138 6]

And why did the only person who SEEMED to know what he was talking about before, only show up on the Yahoo message board between 4 and 4:30am in the morning? And why was this the ONLY response he put up on the message board all day? Alien from another planet?

 

And why is this such a difficult question? One would think with all the fumbles in the NFL and with how long fantasy football scoring has been going on that someone would have brought it up before. And why would the brain at Yahoo!.Com simply say,"its just how we've always scored it." It sounds like an answer to "Why do you drink water from the toilet? Uhh, because, I don't know, we've just always drank it from there."

 

Why, man, why? There must be a reason other than to screw me out of a win last week and a playoff berth this year.

 

"A planet where apes evolved from men? THERE'S GOTTA BE AN ANSWER!"

 

 

Me tinks it be because da qb didn't do nuttin wrong so he should get his stats but da tang is dat if he get his den da darn wr has to be gettin his to...

[tbone138 6]

Me tinks it be because da qb didn't do nuttin wrong so he should get his stats but da tang is dat if he get his den da darn wr has to be gettin his to...

 

oh and to, da rb can't be gettin his cuz it be all on his dum ass

[bomza 0]

oh and to, da rb can't be gettin his cuz it be all on his dum ass

Lol. That's actually very funny. But, Oh my God! He may be right!

 

A similar play from Sunday...

 

Link to a video clip of the Arnaz Battle fumble and 3 yard loss he suffered on a reverse. Very similar to the Bush play except Battle got -3 yards rushing on the play and -2 for the fumble in Yahoo! scoring, while Bush on the play had a rush for no gain and just got the -2 for fumble.

 

Battle play

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d804b6697

(At the 20 second mark.)

 

Bush play

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d804bb9e3

(Play in question comes at about the 3:17 mark)

 

Or is there a different standard when it comes to scoring running backs? That sure seems odd and unlikely.

 

It sure as hell seems like Bush is getting rewarded for tossing the ball backwards stupidly, while Battle is getting punished for at least trying to recover his own fumble. But no.....

 

Just look at the box score for these two plays:

Bush: fumble:(5 to 6 yards behind line of scrimmage when he fumbled) rush for no gain

Battle:fumble:(3 yards behind line of scrimmage) minus 3 yards rushing

 

And then of course that means the guy from Yahoo.Com was wrong? Oh My God! Then maybe they don't know what they're doing, it was simply a mistake, and I WAS screwed out of last Sunday's win and this year's playoffs. That's even worse! Argghh!!

 

I'd much rather hear an explanation. Is there one?

[scott ross 0]

i think your investing way too much time on this one Good luck on your quest!

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

I don't know.

[bomza 0]

I don't know.

Lol. I don't know either, and see, that's the problem.

 

And Yahoo!, and the guy at the ESPN support line didn't know either.

(Even though the ESPN play-by-play for the game clearly says he lost 12 yards on the play.)

2nd and 10 at NO 49 (3:36) R.Bush to NO 37 for -12 yards. FUMBLES, RECOVERED by TB-J.Haye at NO 37. J.Haye to NO 37 for no gain (D.Brees).

 

But since the Elias Sports Bureau didn't correct this on Thursday, there must be a reason he can lose 12 yards on a fumble in ESPN's play-by-play, and yet not lose 12 yards from his total in the box score. Right?

[Road_Cats 1]

pardon spelling and grammer

buts when a qb completes a pass and a wr fumbles the ball the qb and wr get the yardaged gained no matter who recovers the football unless the wr recovers his own fumble than that yardage goes down as rushing i believe.

 

same as a rb what ever is gain or not gained goes to him accordingly at the spot of the fumble. Now the debate its up to the official score keeper to rule who caused the fumble lets say. qb rb exchange lets say all depends who they credit with the fumble and than even than if the opther team recovers it its prolly considered a no gain. Now on the reverse for some odd reason they possibly credited the wr with the fumble and not bush or since it was an obvious reverse maybe they score that as a no gain for him and a loss for the reciever who knows. I personally dont believe they just did this cause reggie was involved just how they score things.

But here is the real deal when a punt returner does not field a punt clean they call that a muff and you dont get credit for a turnover for your defense even though it resulted in one

[bomza 0]

pardon spelling and grammer

buts when a qb completes a pass and a wr fumbles the ball the qb and wr get the yardaged gained no matter who recovers the football unless the wr recovers his own fumble than that yardage goes down as rushing i believe.

 

same as a rb what ever is gain or not gained goes to him accordingly at the spot of the fumble. Now the debate its up to the official score keeper to rule who caused the fumble lets say. qb rb exchange lets say all depends who they credit with the fumble and than even than if the opther team recovers it its prolly considered a no gain. Now on the reverse for some odd reason they possibly credited the wr with the fumble and not bush or since it was an obvious reverse maybe they score that as a no gain for him and a loss for the reciever who knows. I personally dont believe they just did this cause reggie was involved just how they score things.

But here is the real deal when a punt returner does not field a punt clean they call that a muff and you dont get credit for a turnover for your defense even though it resulted in one

Thanks for you remarks, and I fairly certain I understand all that you are saying.

 

But the problem is the scorer gave Bush the fumble (and I believe correctly), not Henderson, and not Brees on the handoff to Bush, which would rule out a "muff" and if THAT was the case I could believe that the official scorer thought that Bush never got control of the ball completely, and in which case Bush could not have any yards gained on the play since he never had complete control of the ball.

 

But Bush WAS charged with the fumble, and he received the ball CLEANLY from Brees on a handoff, and he DID have complete control of it, and he took 3-4 steps with it before tossing it backwards. He started at the 41, took the handoff at the 42, and he continued slightly forward and to the left to about the 43 1/2 yard line, in order to make the defense believe he was going to keep it and run with it FURTHER. At this point he tossed it back, but at the time he did so he had already lost 5-6 yards for his team, and he lost 6 more when he tossed the ball back and Henderson was barely able to touch it.

 

What I still don't understand is why Battle clearly got minus 3 yards rushing on his fumble, but Bush did not lose any yards on his fumble.

 

Now here's another thing which I just noticed....

 

ESPN's play-by-play for BUSH (Box score shows Bush ran for "no gain" on this play.)

2nd and 10 at NO 49 (3:36) R.Bush to NO 37 for -12 yards. FUMBLES, RECOVERED by TB-J.Haye at NO 37. J.Haye to NO 37 for no gain (D.Brees).

 

ESPN's play-by-play for BATTLE (Box score shows Battle got minus 3 yards rushing on this play.)

3rd and 1 at CAR 44 (6:44) A.Battle to CAR 44 for no gain (M.Rucker). FUMBLES (M.Rucker), RECOVERED by CAR-D.Lewis at CAR 47. D.Lewis to CAR 47 for no gain (T.Dilfer).

 

I swear that's what each says. I mean, c'mon, is fantasy football and NFL scoring this arbitrary?

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Does the play in question affect you getting into the playoffs?

 

What is the impact to you in $$$?

[bomza 0]

Does the play in question affect you getting into the playoffs?

 

What is the impact to you in $$$?

Yes, absolutely. The difference whether or not I make it.

 

Nothing. No money involved. But it's bugging me now searching for a reason for these discrepancies because the more and more I look at comparable fumbles, the more the NFL scoring seems haphazard and full of mistakes without anyone being able to justify these discrepancies.

 

And the ESPN site supposedly uses the Elias Sports Bureau for it's play-by-play.

And the NFL site supposedly uses the Elias Sports Bureau for it's play-by-play.

And the ESPN and the NFL site say two different things for the Bush play-by-play.

And the Elias Sports Bureau is supposedly also the group that is the watchdog over these mistakes, and there is no contact for the "Elias Sports Bureau".

 

If it's a mistake, fine. If there's a reason fine.

 

(Maybe Bush has a yardage incentive in his contract and he knew he would not be able to play after this week because of his injury, and it meant dollars to him so Elias cut him some slack?)

 

Look, I don't know. But without a reasonable explanation, anything is possible.

 

Hey, wouldn't it be funny if it was something like that? I mean, I forgot to mention it, but this "correction" in Bush's yardage on Yahoo! came down AFTER the game was completed. He was at a lower number, and after the game he went back up to 64 yards rushing. (I just happened to notice.)

 

So maybe a call came from Bush's agent to the official scorer after the game to "fudge" a bit, and he got something under the table. And here it was just some nobody who just got bounced out of his nothing fantasy league who uncovered the corruption, and while he didn't care anymore about it, it nonetheless became a quest for him to find the right answer.

 

And in a week, Guido will come knocking at my wondering why I'm asking so many questions. Lol.

 

Or maybe they just checked the official rulebook after the game was over. Yeah, that's it Guido. That's what I meant to say. Lol.

[Jello Biafra 0]

I think it has something to do with Bush trying to pass the ball as opposed to Battle who just fumbled without attempting a backwards pass.

[bomza 0]

I think it has something to do with Bush trying to pass the ball as opposed to Battle who just fumbled without attempting a backwards pass.

Well yeah, that was my nephew's quess, so he asked me to come up with a play-by-play where someone lateraled to someone else, who then fumbled. And to see if the person who lateraled got credit for the yards he rushed before he lateraled.

 

But the person DID get credit for the yards he rushed.

 

Maybe if someone can find me an example of someone OTHER than Bush who got "no gain" on a play when they fumbled. But see, even that wouldn't help because Battle got "no gain" on his fumble play in the play-by-play, (even though on the video you clearly see he lost 3 yards) and he still got minus 3 yards rushing in the box score.

 

I'm so confused!

 

But yeah, seriously for a moment, I think what you say must have something to do with it, since that is the only difference between the two plays. Unless someone else can point something else out to me. Maybe I should just go down to the local Borders and see if they have a paperback copy of the NFL rulebook for $10 like they have on Amazon.

[Jello Biafra 0]

Well yeah, that was my nephew's quess, so he asked me to come up with a play-by-play where someone lateraled to someone else, who then fumbled. And to see if the person who lateraled got credit for the yards he rushed before he lateraled.

 

But the person DID get credit for the yards he rushed.

 

Maybe if someone can find me an example of someone OTHER than Bush who got "no gain" on a play when they fumbled. But see, even that wouldn't help because Battle got "no gain" on his fumble play in the play-by-play, (even though on the video you clearly see he lost 3 yards) and he still got minus 3 yards rushing in the box score.

 

I'm so confused!

 

Bush was behind the line of scrimmage when he attempted his pass, so he wouldn't lose any rushing yards (or gain any). The only difference between his pass and a forward pass is that if incomplete, the lateral is a fumble.

[bomza 0]

Bush was behind the line of scrimmage when he attempted his pass, so he wouldn't lose any rushing yards (or gain any). The only difference between his pass and a forward pass is that if incomplete, the lateral is a fumble.

Ok, hey I think I follow.

 

So if you're behind the line of scrimmage, and you try to backwards pass, no matter if it's a fumble or not, your yards rushing are not counted.

 

But I assume that if he DID cross the line of scrimmage, that any yards he rushed for WOULD be counted before he tried to lateral and/or fumbled it?

 

Ok, so what if he was hit while attempting to lateral then? What would be the ruling then? Would he lose the yards in that case because he was being tackled in effect?

[Jello Biafra 0]

Ok, hey I think I follow.

 

So if you're behind the line of scrimmage, and you try to backwards pass, no matter if it's a fumble or not, your yards rushing are not counted.

 

But I assume that if he DID cross the line of scrimmage, that any yards he rushed for WOULD be counted before he tried to lateral and/or fumbled it?

 

I believe this to be correct.

 

Ok, so what if he was hit while attempting to lateral then? What would be the ruling then? Would he lose the yards in that case because he was being tackled in effect?

 

I think if he got hit before the ball left his hands, and he fumbled, he would lose the yards.

[bomza 0]

I believe this to be correct.

I think if he got hit before the ball left his hands, and he fumbled, he would lose the yards.

Thank you very much. It took a week of me asking around different forums, but I think you really have it right.

 

Thanks again.

 

So Bush blows the play for his team, (and hey, perhaps blows the entire SEASON for his team) by voluntarily tossing the ball to the other team without getting hit, and he personally benefits from it (as opposed to if he had gotten tackled and fumbled) in his rushing total by keeping those 12 yards of his 64 rushing yards on the day. How nuts is that?