Mike Vick's Problem In A Nutshell

[Eriadoc 4]

I only have one further point to add to this conversation - Let Schaub play the Jets and have Vinny repeat his performance from last night. Then have Schaub repeat his performance from the NE game. Instead of Vick getting the two 1-yd RuTDs, give them to Dunn, Griffith, whoever. They've got the people to punch it in. What do you think happens? The Falcons win easier. Schaub lost a game vs. the PATRIOTS and Vick won a game vs. the JETS. Throw 3 INTs vs. the Pats and see what happens. And the Falcons defense has lapses, sure - remember the KC game from last year? When they do, whoever they have at QB is likely to lose.

[football_scooter 0]

TELL YOU WHAT, PUT VICK IN A GREEN BAY UNI AND I WILL GARUNTEE YOU HE WILL ONLY DO 1 THING.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

CONSTANTLY RUN FOR HIS LIFE AND LOSE EVERY GAME 37-3 BECAUSE HE'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO PASS EFFECTIVELY.  THATS WHAT HE DOES!!!!!! PERIOD

Fixed!

YEAH SCOOTER YOUR'RE RIGHT, THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDIN. HE LOSES MOST OF THE GAMES HE STARTS.

 

 

do some homework DONKEY

Ah - so Vick playing on the Green Bay Packers, he's won most of the games he's been in? That's what you're saying?

 

Oh, no? So how could I be wrong about something you're speculating wildly about?

 

And name calling - that's always helpful in proving your points.

 

Please - same challenge I gave to OMN: Please explain exactly how Vick personally won this game then. I'm all ears - I expect a detailed account of how it was Vick and not the Falcons with a stellar TEAM EFFORT.

 

That's the problem I and others have with this argument. Bunch of guys on the field on offense, bunch of guys on the field on defense...offensive guys rush for 155 yds and such, defense makes great plays, scores an early TD, takes the ball away 3 or 4 times, and yet Vick "won" that game?

 

sorry - just wanting you to clear up that point - it's a little foggy.

HE HAS WON MOST OF HIS GAMES AS A STARTER and I never implied that he played in Green Bay---that was your speculation.

 

And I don't think he won that game yeterday either, even though he had two TDs'.

 

I am just sick of Vick getting no respect because he doesn't fit the mold.

 

 

Thats all

 

 

P.S. Vick is around 28-13 as a starter-----no speculation----

Uh, sorry to correct you, but you stated (yelled, actually) the following:

 

"TELL YOU WHAT, PUT VICK IN A GREEN BAY UNI AND I WILL GARUNTEE YOU HE WILL ONLY DO 1 THING.

 

 

 

WIN GAMES. THATS WHAT HE DOES!!!!!! PERIOD"

 

So how exactly was that my speculation and not your implication?

 

You GUARENTEED that if Vick was a Packer, that the Packers would have the same record as the Falcons now.

 

I find that a laughable premise, as I'm certain 99% of this forum, and the general population would as well.

[OD99 0]

Just a thought.

 

Would the Falcons be better with LT2?  That is what they traded to get Vick!

They would be better because they could have gotten Drew Brees to go along with him.

 

Brees > Vick

Let's not forget that the Falcons got Crumpler out of this deal too...I think the trade is too tough to call.

[football_scooter 0]

I only have one further point to add to this conversation - Let Schaub play the Jets and have Vinny repeat his performance from last night. Then have Schaub repeat his performance from the NE game. Instead of Vick getting the two 1-yd RuTDs, give them to Dunn, Griffith, whoever. They've got the people to punch it in. What do you think happens? The Falcons win easier. Schaub lost a game vs. the PATRIOTS and Vick won a game vs. the JETS. Throw 3 INTs vs. the Pats and see what happens. And the Falcons defense has lapses, sure - remember the KC game from last year? When they do, whoever they have at QB is likely to lose.

whoa there nelly...a little too logical/rational for this topic. Remember: Vick WINS GAMES!

 

 

 

But a good point nonetheless.

 

 

I often challenge Vick supporters to give me examples of Vick playing from behind and winning the game - I can't think of any. In fact, I think Vick makes most games a lot closer than they need to be by turning the ball over and missing wide open receivers. Then he HAS to scramble to get anything done and all the Vick lovers point to that and say, "see: THAT is why he's a great QB". The illogical part of that is that they completely disregard the incompletions on 1st and 2nd down which would have made it unecessary to scramble for that 1st down.

[BBB93005 0]

Yeah, like Football Scooter said...

 

Vick would not make the Packers any better. That is just crazy talk.

[kiwimango 0]

Thats what you say. I say if the Jets D doesnt have to worry about VICK, they shut down the HORRIBLE Falcons Offense. I say Abraham wrecks havoc and The Jets have to only defend Dunn and the pass, they have a better chance of winning! With Schaub all you have to defend is the pass!!! I say that the JETS ARE GIDDY IF VICK DOESNT PLAY!

 

There is not D coordinator that wants to prepare for VICK!

[kiwimango 0]

FOOTBALL SCOOTER, does it ever occur to you that Vick never really has to rally his team at the end of the game BECAUSE HE IS RARELY BEHIND AT THE END OF THE GAME! He doesnt have to go into the 2 minute drill to win the game because they are usually ALWAYS WINNING!

 

Please instead of me telling you the games where he rallied from behind and won the games (I am not sure there are many), PLEASE SHOW ME THE GAMES WHERE HE NEEDED TO DO THAT AND COULDNT! That should be much easier to find!

[BBB93005 0]

If I was a "D" co-ordinator...and my secondary was weak against the pass...I would want to prepare for Vick

[OD99 0]

If we are talking about Vick in general then I agree that history shows he wins games but I would argue that they won in spite of Vick last night.

 

Their D put them in great position, the line blocked extremely well for Dunn and the Jets made enough unforced errors that the Texans might have won last night.

 

One other point; people say that the Falcons running game is good because D's are geared up to stop Vick run (which is itself a ridiculous argument for another thread) BUT if they are so geared to focus on him running, why isn't his completion percentage higher?

 

He plays in a version of the WCO which should automatically mean a high completion % but for some reason with short throws and D's scheming to stop the rushing attack, he still puts up less than pedestrian numbers.

 

Now go ahead and and whine about him being a winner...

[Skinny_Bastard 154]

Why are we constantly debating about this? With Vick, the Atlanta offense is the number 1 rushing offense in the league. Fock all you mofos that think you need to throw 5,000 yards and 40 TD!!! It's about running the ball and playing solid defense! This is a FACT! Without Vick, Atlanta's running game become average...very very average. DE will no longer need to hold their grounds, instead they will attack the runner......

[mnvikejohn 1]

1. Where does it say that a QB is supposed to throw the ball

 

He can do that, but into his Wr's hands is another story

 

Realistically, If your down by a Td and at your own 20yd line with 2 minutes left,

He better be freaking throwing the ball, the game dictates that

On any other team you would be right, being on you own 20. But not ATL, Vick could bust an 80 yard run or 2 40's or 4 20's.

That is ridiculious to say... I think you drank 2 40's before you wrote your post!

[Skinny_Bastard 154]

If we are talking about Vick in general then I agree that history shows he wins games but I would argue that they won in spite of Vick last night.

 

Their D put them in great position, the line blocked extremely well for Dunn and the Jets made enough unforced errors that the Texans might have won last night.

 

One other point; people say that the Falcons running game is good because D's are geared up to stop Vick run (which is itself a ridiculous argument for another thread) BUT if they are so geared to focus on him running, why isn't his completion percentage higher?

 

He plays in a version of the WCO which should automatically mean a high completion % but for some reason with short throws and D's scheming to stop the rushing attack, he still puts up less than pedestrian numbers.

 

Now go ahead and and whine about him being a winner...

Check out the game vs NE. They only got 113 yards against a defense that yields over 125 on the ground and rank 25th in the league.

[The Moz 69]

And name calling - that's always helpful in proving your points.

Scooter calling another person out for Name calling to prove a point

 

I have changed the way I think of Vick and honestly don't think he is a very good QB as his passing is maybe the worst I have seen from a starter !

 

Fact is this ATL wins when he starts ! Does the Defense play better , the coaches coach better , runner better -- when he is in to pick up for his slack I have no idea !

 

The fact is that ATL plays better when Vick starts as 2 trips to playoffs ( which they won at least 1 game ) proves this. I'm not a coach and won't pretend to know alot of the X's and O's of the game I just know scoreboard and when Vick starts they win. It's seems odd to me as well being the guy couldn't hit water from the beach and can't read a defense if you fot the man a telepromter on the field -- but he wins ! Slice it however you really want but his win % when he starts compared to when he is out is staggering.

[Skinny_Bastard 154]

FOOTBALL SCOOTER, does it ever occur to you that Vick never really has to rally his team at the end of the game BECAUSE HE IS RARELY BEHIND AT THE END OF THE GAME! He doesnt have to go into the 2 minute drill to win the game because they are usually ALWAYS WINNING!

 

Please instead of me telling you the games where he rallied from behind and won the games (I am not sure there are many), PLEASE SHOW ME THE GAMES WHERE HE NEEDED TO DO THAT AND COULDNT! That should be much easier to find!

Don't mess with Scooter, i have debated this point with him in the past and his point will always be the same. Atlanta wins because of team effort -- somewhat true but he can never explain why Atlanta is 3-14 the last 4 years when vick don't start....

[football_scooter 0]

FOOTBALL SCOOTER, does it ever occur to you that Vick never really has to rally his team at the end of the game BECAUSE HE IS RARELY BEHIND AT THE END OF THE GAME!  He doesnt have to go into the 2 minute drill to win the game because they are usually ALWAYS WINNING!

Usually always, eh?

 

 

Q: so your statement here - it is a perfect example of what?

 

A: good defense and running game.

 

Thanks for proving my point for me - that's what I've been saying all along. Well done, and glad we agree.

 

 

As for this gem of wisdom

Please instead of me telling you the games where he rallied from behind and won the games (I am not sure there are many), PLEASE SHOW ME THE GAMES WHERE HE NEEDED TO DO THAT AND COULDNT!  That should be much easier to find!

 

It's the same thing. Games Vick's had to come from behind and couldn't - I don't understand you here - you're saying the same thing I am but rephrasing it - I want to know how well Vick can carry that team to victory when playing from behind. Same thing you just said.

[PriestAlone 0]

28-13 as a starter is impressive. I can't think of a more important stat.

 

People confuse fantasy with reality.

 

Have his teammates been so good that they cover his a*s that often? Really? The Falcons?

[Skinny_Bastard 154]

Can anyone explain why Atlanta is like 3-16 when Vick don't start over the last 4 season?

[Skinny_Bastard 154]

28-13 as a starter is impressive. I can't think of a more important stat.

 

People confuse fantasy with reality.

 

Have his teammates been so good that they cover his a*s that often? Really? The Falcons?

28-13 when Vick Starts

3-16 when he don't....

 

that's the only thing that matters to me....Vick rocks!

[The Moz 69]

Can anyone explain why Atlanta is like 3-16 when Vick don't start over the last 4 season?

exactly - it's a mystery ! He puts the team under a hyptno endused state in which they play out of this world ! ???

[football_scooter 0]

28-13 as a starter is impressive. I can't think of a more important stat.

 

People confuse fantasy with reality.

 

Have his teammates been so good that they cover his a*s that often? Really? The Falcons?

funny - I think people confuse W-L record with individual accomplishement.

 

But only when they have nothing else to support their points.

[Skinny_Bastard 154]

28-13 as a starter is impressive.  I can't think of a more important stat. 

 

People confuse fantasy with reality. 

 

Have his teammates been so good that they cover his a*s that often?  Really?  The Falcons?

funny - I think people confuse W-L record with individual accomplishement.

 

But only when they have nothing else to support their points.

yada yada yada.

[OD99 0]

Check out the game vs NE. They only got 113 yards against a defense that yields over 125 on the ground and rank 25th in the league.

 

 

They were also down by 14 early...they didn't rush the ball as many times as they normally would because they got jumped on by a solid offense and Schaub was able to bring them back with his arm.

 

FYI, the Pats are also 24th against the pass...

[Skinny_Bastard 154]

They were also down by 14 early...they didn't rush the ball as many times as they normally would because they got jumped on by a solid offense and Schaub was able to bring them back with his arm.

 

FYI, the Pats are also 24th against the pass...

Why did they go down 0-14 early? Because they couldn't control the clock...

[Skinny_Bastard 154]

Can anyone explain why Atlanta is like 3-16 when Vick don't start over the last 4 season? 

exactly - it's a mystery ! He puts the team under a hyptno endused state in which they play out of this world ! ???

Tell that to scooter...he claims to know the reason for the demise.....of course he also thinks Matt Schaub is the next Brett Farve.

[Guest MUGS]

mnvikejohn 

Posted: Oct 25 2005, 08:45 PM

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QUOTE (shatterproof @ Oct 25 2005, 02:29 PM)

QUOTE (MUGS @ Oct 25 2005, 02:21 PM)

QUOTE

1. Where does it say that a QB is supposed to throw the ball

 

 

He can do that, but into his Wr's hands is another story

 

Realistically, If your down by a Td and at your own 20yd line with 2 minutes left,

He better be freaking throwing the ball, the game dictates that

 

On any other team you would be right, being on you own 20. But not ATL, Vick could bust an 80 yard run or 2 40's or 4 20's.

 

That is ridiculious to say... I think you drank 2 40's before you wrote your post!

 

 

Agreed, He sure as he11 isn't going to run every play, granted he is capable of breaking one

[The Moz 69]

Can anyone explain why Atlanta is like 3-16 when Vick don't start over the last 4 season? 

exactly - it's a mystery ! He puts the team under a hyptno endused state in which they play out of this world ! ???

Tell that to scooter...he claims to know the reason for the demise.....of course he also thinks Matt Schaub is the next Brett Farve.

Maybe the coach tells the team to lose when Vick is out to stroke Vicks already largeer than life ego -- becasue Vick puts the fans in the seats ?

[edjr 5,605]

my prediction.

 

Vick will not see the field this week for his pathetic performance last night.

[Skinny_Bastard 154]

Can anyone explain why Atlanta is like 3-16 when Vick don't start over the last 4 season? 

exactly - it's a mystery ! He puts the team under a hyptno endused state in which they play out of this world ! ???

Tell that to scooter...he claims to know the reason for the demise.....of course he also thinks Matt Schaub is the next Brett Farve.

Maybe the coach tells the team to lose when Vick is out to stroke Vicks already largeer than life ego -- becasue Vick puts the fans in the seats ?

Seats? how bout jerseys, tshirts, underwear, mugs, blankets, sheets, toilet tissues, etc with vick on it...

[The Moz 69]

toilet tissues, etc with vick on it...

 

so you can go an wipe you ass and see the qaulity of his passing ?

[mnvikejohn 1]

Can anyone explain why Atlanta is like 3-16 when Vick don't start over the last 4 season? 

exactly - it's a mystery ! He puts the team under a hyptno endused state in which they play out of this world ! ???

Maybe they are afraid Ron Mexico will visit them in the locker room if they lose!!!

 

[seVen_S 0]

Vick in a nutshell is a flaming drama queen. Every time he gets hit he acts like he just took on the world. The announcers and news media hold their breath to see if the earth will keep spinning on it's axis. Witnessing this several times a game is annoying as hell. Warrick Dunn is the MPV of that team in heart. Vick thinks he IS the team.

 

So you can have your miracle worker who knows just how to win. I give most of the credit to the team, not the arrogant assclown wearing special shoes Nike only makes for him...

 

Take your man love and visit mikevick.com for serious wood.

 

------ More Love

 

CoachSpeak:

 

October 21, 2005 -- The question was innocent enough. Its response, however, was evidence of a raw nerve touched.

Atlanta head coach Jim Mora, whose 4-2 Falcons play the 2-4 Jets on Monday night at the Georgia Dome, was asked yesterday about his multi-dimensional quarterback, Michael Vick. The question, asking about Vick's "development as a quarterback, per se," inferred that he was less true quarterback and more a runner.

 

"What do you mean, as a quarterback per se?" Mora asked back. "In the mold of Peyton Manning or in the role of Mike Vick? Because in the mold of Mike Vick, he's outstanding. He wins two-third of his games. I think it is unfortunate that people always put him in a mold. Let him be him. He is a quarterback. He's a great quarterback.

 

"I see him do things that other quarterbacks don't do. When are we going to start talking about when Peyton Manning is going to start doing what Mike Vick does? Let's flip it. The guy wins games and that's the role of the quarterback, to win games. He wins games. He's already a great quarterback.

 

"He doesn't need to do anything," Mora went on. "I think it's ridiculous that people keep asking me that question. I don't know why people are so narrow-minded that they can't understand why the guy is a great player. Let him do what he does best. Why does everyone have to be the same? It doesn't make sense to me. Never has, never will. There are a lot of different ways to have success, and he's finding his own way. He's ingenious. The guy is a genius."

-----

Now I know why I see twinkling in Moras eyes when refering to Vick.

He's been VICKtimised

[Skinny_Bastard 154]

toilet tissues, etc with vick on it... 

 

so you can go an wipe you ass and see the qaulity of his passing ?

I'll wipe yours afterwards if you like...

[The Moz 69]

Can anyone explain why Atlanta is like 3-16 when Vick don't start over the last 4 season? 

exactly - it's a mystery ! He puts the team under a hyptno endused state in which they play out of this world ! ???

Maybe they are afraid Ron Mexico will visit them in the locker room if they lose!!!

 

Ron Mexico showers alone

[OD99 0]

They were also down by 14 early...they didn't rush the ball as many times as they normally would because they got jumped on by a solid offense and Schaub was able to bring them back with his arm.

 

FYI, the Pats are also 24th against the pass...

Why did they go down 0-14 early? Because they couldn't control the clock...

Well that is the quickest cop-out I have seen here in a while...

 

Every team (even the vaunted Falcons with Superman taking the snaps) will have some drives stall before they begin and that is what happened with the Falcons.

 

The Pats jumped out early and Atlanta was playing catch-up all game.

 

Please don't base your argument on this one game - it will make us both stoop to low levels.

[Skinny_Bastard 154]

OMG!!!! These words are ole so true!!!!

 

I'm going to frame this up and whenever Scooter makes a dumb comment i'm going to paste this up his a@@!!

 

Why don't we ask manning to do a bootleg with 9 in the box at the 40 yard line!!! Muhahahahaa!!

 

Kudos to Mora!!!

 

""I see him do things that other quarterbacks don't do. When are we going to start talking about when Peyton Manning is going to start doing what Mike Vick does? Let's flip it. The guy wins games and that's the role of the quarterback, to win games. He wins games. He's already a great quarterback.

 

"He doesn't need to do anything," Mora went on. "I think it's ridiculous that people keep asking me that question. I don't know why people are so narrow-minded that they can't understand why the guy is a great player. Let him do what he does best. Why does everyone have to be the same? It doesn't make sense to me. Never has, never will. There are a lot of different ways to have success, and he's finding his own way. He's ingenious. The guy is a genius.""

[redtodd 7]

28-13 as a starter is impressive.  I can't think of a more important stat. 

 

People confuse fantasy with reality. 

 

Have his teammates been so good that they cover his a*s that often?  Really?  The Falcons?

28-13 when Vick Starts

3-16 when he don't....

 

that's the only thing that matters to me....Vick rocks!

Take a look at how the Atlanta defense was the year he was out all year.

 

It was one of the worst in the league.

[third_and_one 0]

I referred to Vick not being a great player before, I meant he's not a great QB. In fact, he's a terrible QB, if judged by the factors that make up the QB efficiency rating.

 

However, the sheer fact that Vick can do things in the QB position that 95% of the QB's in the league can never even dream of doing does indeed make him a great player. Every single defender on every single snap must be aware of where Vick is, and at the same time do his job on defense. No other QB in the NFL demands that type of attention from defenders.

 

Also, as for wins and losses, in no way is Vick DIRECTLY responsible for wins and losses, but Vick has to be a FACTOR in wins and losses. The numbers are there, and you can't say that the presence of Vick has absolutely zero correlation on the outcome of the game. The expanation as to why is debatable, but to say that Vick is the sole reason or to say that Vick has nothing to do with it is being a bit narrow-minded.

 

Again, the notion of the damage a Vick can do on the field, I think, puts alot of pressure on defenses and defensive coordinators, and thus may contribute to the reason as to why atlanta seems to win with vick on the field.

[PriestAlone 0]

28-13 as a starter is impressive.  I can't think of a more important stat. 

 

People confuse fantasy with reality. 

 

Have his teammates been so good that they cover his a*s that often?  Really?  The Falcons?

28-13 when Vick Starts

3-16 when he don't....

 

that's the only thing that matters to me....Vick rocks!

Take a look at how the Atlanta defense was the year he was out all year.

 

It was one of the worst in the league.

And this year the ATL defense is ranked 23rd.

 

As bad as Vick is, it's amazing the Vikings ever score an offensive TD.

[BBB93005 0]

However, the sheer fact that Vick can do things in the QB position that 95% of the QB's in the league can never even dream of doing does indeed make him a great player. Every single defender on every single snap must be aware of where Vick is, and at the same time do his job on defense. No other QB in the NFL demands that type of attention from defenders.

Because defenders are too busy trying to cover receivers...that the QB is supposed to throw to.

[third_and_one 0]

As bad as Vick is, it's amazing the Vikings ever score an offensive TD.

It IS amazing how the vikings ever score an offensive TD, but what does that have to do with Vick?