Bible Paradox I've always wondered about

[Blitzen 1]

That comes back to what I was saying earlier. It's how you define optimal. I think other factors are far more important than human happiness in determining the goodness of the world. I think we may well be optimal. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that though.

 

If this clusterfock is optimal, then God is certainly an engineer.

[Savage Beast 1]

Maybe, maybe not. But I would argue that most of the people currently on the planet would probably vote for a planet redo. I think we are far from optimal.

 

The original Universe and the planet earth were perfect in the beginning of God's creation, but after mankind sinned, the Universe and the planet earth went into chaos. Sin cause not only the death of mankind and animals, but also the death of the entire Universe.

 

The good news is that the Universe and the earth will be restored to perfection in the near future by Christ, and you can read about it in

Revelation chapter 21:1-7

 

If you are born from above through Christ, then you will live for all of eternity in the new Heaven and new Earth as Revelation chapter 21 states.

[PistonSteve 0]

If the Bible didn't exist......how would we know about God?

 

Meaning...it's a book written many years ago. How do we know that the author(s) knew what they were talking about? I'm not trying to be bashing any beliefs here...but just wondering outloud.

[MisanthropicAnthropoid 0]

If the Bible didn't exist......how would we know about God?

 

Meaning...it's a book written many years ago. How do we know that the author(s) knew what they were talking about? I'm not trying to be bashing any beliefs here...but just wondering outloud.

 

We would still have philosophical arguments for God's existence and some parts of His nature. As far as moral commands and such, we'd probably be in the dark.

[Savage Beast 1]

And he was Canadian I might add.

 

Ask yourself this question?

 

Why did Naismith create the game, when he knew he couldn't control the outcome? Was he insane? Was he unjust? Was he unfair? He knew there would be both winners and losers, and yet he still created the event? Why?

[Blitzen 1]

As far as moral commands and such, we'd probably be in the dark.

 

This will definitely be my last point of the night: I disagree with this. I don't believe in god and I think my kids are being well-raised. My mom, who is absolutely religious certainly agrees with this. The Bible might give some folks who have no moral compass something to aspire to but I don't think the entire humanity would be without morals.

[PistonSteve 0]

Sorry...I'm a science teacher...therefore, I believe in theories that are firmly grounded in and based upon evidence and are logically consistent with other well-established principles.

[Blitzen 1]

Ask yourself this question?

 

Why did Naismith create the game, when he knew he couldn't control the outcome? Was he insane? Was he unjust? Was he unfair? He knew there would be both winners and losers, and yet he still created the event? Why?

 

Because he liked gambling? I don't know but some people might:

 

After serving as McGill's Athletic Director, James Naismith moved on to the YMCA Training School in Springfield, Massachusetts, USA in 1891, where the sport of basketball was born. In Springfield, Naismith was faced with the problem of finding a sport that was suitable for play inside during the Massachusetts winter for the students at the School for Christian Workers. Naismith wanted to create a game of skill for the students instead of one that relied solely on strength. He needed a game that could be played indoors in a relatively small space. The first game was played with a soccer ball and two peach baskets used as goals.

[Savage Beast 1]

If the Bible didn't exist......how would we know about God?

 

Meaning...it's a book written many years ago. How do we know that the author(s) knew what they were talking about? I'm not trying to be bashing any beliefs here...but just wondering outloud.

 

Your answer is in Romans chapter 1:20-21 which reads; "For since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead(Trinity), so that men are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

 

 

 

So you see in these verses that because men are wicked, the refuse to believe in God, even though the evidences of God are overwhelming throughout the Universe.

[MisanthropicAnthropoid 0]

This will definitely be my last point of the night: I disagree with this. I don't believe in god and I think my kids are being well-raised. My mom, who is absolutely religious certainly agrees with this. The Bible might give some folks who have no moral compass something to aspire to but I don't think the entire humanity would be without morals.

 

Okay, I was a bit ambiguous. We still may be able to surmise that a God existed, but we wouldn't know what HE commands of us morally. We could still make pretty good guesses as to what we ought to do in certain situations.

[FeelingMN 273]

This is true. My argument is that the two interventions have significantly different philosophical ramifications, so you can't treat them as the same thing from God's perspective.

 

Hard to have a balanced discussion when one side has a 'backstage pass'. Face it, you're full of it for even thinking you were privvy to God's perspective. You just want so badly to be right, but you've failed.

 

 

Since we were all created in the image of god, we indeed have true freedom, just as God has. This is why God can't force his love and salvation upon us, or he gladly would. It's not God's will that any should perish, but that all would come to Christ, as 2 Peter 3:9 states.

 

Again, speaking on behalf of God. Of course you're in a unique position to do so because you know so much about God. Pffft, whatever. You bleed like me man, and like me you cannot possibly fathom how the most complex entity in the universe operates. The only difference between you and me....actually many differences between you and me, but the pertinent one here is your faith, and my lack of Christian faith. Yours is much stronger than mine. But own up to your limitations as a human being: you cannot possibly speak on behalf of God. To do so makes you sound even more like a charlatan. Now quote me some scripture to tell me I'm wrong.

 

 

Dr. Naismith created the basketball game we play today, but he doesn't determine who wins or loses the game, the players do.

 

True. But to extend the same metaphor, Naismith would know every winner, every loser, every score of every game ever played. And he would have known before the creation of time. Bad example.

 

 

Here lies our disagreement. Knowing the game's outcome is hardly the same as designing it to where every other outcome is unattainable.

 

We can invent a parallel in sci-fi. Say the founders of the NFL were time travelers and knew the outcome of all games that would be played in the league they founded. Do they hold the ultimate responsibility for the Patriots losing this Super Bowl? Or do the Patriots and Giants? I suppose you could argue the former, but the latter seems more reasonable to me.

 

Again, this is a matter of perspective. Looking at it from a human level, you can see choices being made and responsibility taken for those choices. Fine. And from God's perspective (hypothetically) you can see free will has been exercised while the outcome had been known all along. But from a purely objective and realistic viewpoint, the two perspectives would have to merge. In Reality, God's perspective would have to be taken into account just as my own. To not do so means that His perspective is outside of Reality. I'm sure most of you will probably advocate this. God is outside space and time. Right? But then why ascribe to him such human-like powers. He decides. He creates. He loves. He does things in a similar way to any average middle age white dude. The fact is, if He does exist, no one here could fathom the extent of his powers. Yet some of you claim to be able to do just this. And this is where it breaks down for me.

 

Sadly, I don't think Savage will admit to the limits of his knowledge, nor will MLCKAA own to any doubt he's had about the topic. To do so would open the door for the agnostic in you. And that my zealous geeks makes me feel kinda warm and fuzzy inside.

[Blitzen 1]

Hard to have a balanced discussion when one side has a 'backstage pass'. Face it, you're full of it for even thinking you were privvy to God's perspective. You just want so badly to be right, but you've failed.

Again, speaking on behalf of God. Of course you're in a unique position to do so because you know so much about God. Pffft, whatever. You bleed like me man, and like me you cannot possibly fathom how the most complex entity in the universe operates. The only difference between you and me....actually many differences between you and me, but the pertinent one here is your faith, and my lack of Christian faith. Yours is much stronger than mine. But own up to your limitations as a human being: you cannot possibly speak on behalf of God. To do so makes you sound even more like a charlatan. Now quote me some scripture to tell me I'm wrong.

True. But to extend the same metaphor, Naismith would know every winner, every loser, every score of every game ever played. And he would have known before the creation of time. Bad example.

Again, this is a matter of perspective. Looking at it from a human level, you can see choices being made and responsibility taken for those choices. Fine. And from God's perspective (hypothetically) you can see free will has been exercised while the outcome had been known all along. But from a purely objective and realistic viewpoint, the two perspectives would have to merge. In Reality, God's perspective would have to be taken into account just as my own. To not do so means that His perspective is outside of Reality. I'm sure most of you will probably advocate this. God is outside space and time. Right? But then why ascribe to him such human-like powers. He decides. He creates. He loves. He does things in a similar way to any average middle age white dude. The fact is, if He does exist, no one here could fathom the extent of his powers. Yet some of you claim to be able to do just this. And this is where it breaks down for me.

 

Sadly, I don't think Savage will admit to the limits of his knowledge, nor will MLCKAA own to any doubt he's had about the topic. To do so would open the door for the agnostic in you. And that my zealous geeks makes me feel kinda warm and fuzzy inside.

 

I think I've already properly argued that God must be an engineer. My work here is done...

[Savage Beast 1]

This will definitely be my last point of the night: I disagree with this. I don't believe in god and I think my kids are being well-raised. My mom, who is absolutely religious certainly agrees with this. The Bible might give some folks who have no moral compass something to aspire to but I don't think the entire humanity would be without morals.

 

I believe you are a very good parent my friend. But a good parent can't determine where his children go when they die. Every man, woman, and child has to make their own choice for themself whether they will love and obey God through his son Christ, or whether they will reject God and his son Christ.

 

 

Jesus said in John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to the Father(God), except through me."

 

So the only way to God and his kingdom is through God's only begotten son the messiah Christ Jesus.

 

You may be a great family man, but that will not get you and your family to Heaven.

[MisanthropicAnthropoid 0]

Hard to have a balanced discussion when one side has a 'backstage pass'. Face it, you're full of it for even thinking you were privvy to God's perspective. You just want so badly to be right, but you've failed.

 

 

Again, this is a matter of perspective. Looking at it from a human level, you can see choices being made and responsibility taken for those choices. Fine. And from God's perspective (hypothetically) you can see free will has been exercised while the outcome had been known all along. But from a purely objective and realistic viewpoint, the two perspectives would have to merge. In Reality, God's perspective would have to be taken into account just as my own. To not do so means that His perspective is outside of Reality. I'm sure most of you will probably advocate this. God is outside space and time. Right? But then why ascribe to him such human-like powers. He decides. He creates. He loves. He does things in a similar way to any average middle age white dude. The fact is, if He does exist, no one here could fathom the extent of his powers. Yet some of you claim to be able to do just this. And this is where it breaks down for me.

 

These are the only two that address me and are pretty similar arguments. If I ever insinuated that I understand God's perspective, I apologize. I am not. There are some things ascertainable from The Bible (which, if you grant that we're talking about the God of the Bible, gives a modicum of insight into his perspective), but certainly not everything. However, the post that you're quoting has nothing to do with me claiming God's perspective. In this case, saying "God's perspective" was the same as saying "the perspective of the being doing or not doing the action."

[Blitzen 1]

I believe you are a very good parent my friend. But a good parent can't determine where his children go when they die. Every man, woman, and child has to make their own choice for themself whether they will love and obey God through his son Christ, or whether they will reject God and his son Christ.

Jesus said in John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to the Father(God), except through me."

 

So the only way to God and his kingdom is through God's only begotten son the messiah Christ Jesus.

 

You may be a great family man, but that will not get you and your family to Heaven.

 

Where exactly did I say that I would prevent my kids from becoming more religious in the future? Is there some sort of statute of limitations on welcoming Christ in your heart? My parents took me to Church every Sunday until I was about 17, 18 or so. Then (I think since I never asked them) I believe they felt I was old enough to make my own decisions and stopped forcing me to go. I immediately stopped since I had been thinking for a long time that this was mostly hogwash. I can see how you could think I was going to Hell but do you think my parents are going there as well because they didn't force me to go?

[Savage Beast 1]

Sadly, I don't think Savage will admit to the limits of his knowledge

 

I don't have anything close to infinite knowledge, I only know what the Holy scriptures say about God. I am no where near the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to worldly knowledge, but I have been reading and studying the Bible since I was 9 years old. I am now 35. My knowledge of the Bible is not flawless, and I am learning new things about God through the scriptures every day. But I am a Biblical apologist, and I have a whole lot of joy and fun discussing the scriptures with believers and unbelievers alike. It's what Biblical apologists do.

[Blitzen 1]

I don't have anything close to infinite knowledge, I only know what the Holy scriptures say about God. I am no where near the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to worldly knowledge, but I have been reading and studying the Bible since I was 9 years old. I am now 35. My knowledge of the Bible is not flawless, and I am learning new things about God through the scriptures every day. But I am a Biblical apologist, and I have a whole lot of joy and fun discussing the scriptures with believers and unbelievers alike. It's what Biblical apologists do.

 

That and calling people who disagree with you numb nuts and evil liberal bastards. But in a good, wholesome, way.

[Savage Beast 1]

Where exactly did I say that I would prevent my kids from becoming more religious in the future? Is there some sort of statute of limitations on welcoming Christ in your heart?

 

If you knew the exact second you were going to die, then you may be able to play games with your fate and God, but you don't.

 

You may die tonight in your sleep, so you don't have the luxury to wait to come to Christ.

 

No human is promised their next breath of air, so they better not take Christ for granted either. The time to come to Christ is now, because tomorrow may never come.

[MisanthropicAnthropoid 0]

It's what Biblical apologists do.

 

But apparently, they don't ever apologize for incessant insulting of others.

[Blitzen 1]

If you knew the exact second you were going to die, then you may be able to play games with your fate and God, but you don't.

 

You may die tonight in your sleep, so you don't have the luxury to wait to come to Christ.

 

No human is promised their next breath of air, so they better not take Christ for granted either. The time to come to Christ is now, because tomorrow may never come.

 

Dear Lord...have you ever been laid?

[Savage Beast 1]

That and calling people who disagree with you numb nuts and evil liberal bastards. But in a good, wholesome, way.

 

Numb nuts is not in the Bible, but b@stard is.

 

You can find b@stard in the books of Deuteronomy and Zechariah. The Hebrew word is "mamzer" which means child of incest or illegitimate child.

[Blitzen 1]

Numb nuts is not in the Bible, but b@stard is.

 

You can find b@stard in the books of Deuteronomy and Zechariah. The Hebrew word is "mamzer" which means child of incest or illegitimate child.

 

When you choose a breakfast cereal, does its name need to be in the Bible for it to be appropriate?

[Savage Beast 1]

But apparently, they don't ever apologize for incessant insulting of others.

 

The insults make me laugh, and all of them are true anyway.

[Savage Beast 1]

When you choose a breakfast cereal, does its name need to be in the Bible for it to be appropriate?

 

I see somebody p!ssed on your mamzer flakes this morning.

[Blitzen 1]

If you knew the exact second you were going to die, then you may be able to play games with your fate and God, but you don't.

 

You may die tonight in your sleep, so you don't have the luxury to wait to come to Christ.

 

No human is promised their next breath of air, so they better not take Christ for granted either. The time to come to Christ is now, because tomorrow may never come.

 

Sorry to disappoint you but the heathen lives another day.

 

You can rejoice however: apparently some scholars have found the words Cocoa Puffs in a particularly old version of Deuteronomy so you're good to go with those. In fact, they suspect that Deuteronomy really means General Mills.

[MLCKAA 586]

Hard to have a balanced discussion when one side has a 'backstage pass'. Face it, you're full of it for even thinking you were privvy to God's perspective. You just want so badly to be right, but you've failed.

Again, speaking on behalf of God. Of course you're in a unique position to do so because you know so much about God. Pffft, whatever. You bleed like me man, and like me you cannot possibly fathom how the most complex entity in the universe operates. The only difference between you and me....actually many differences between you and me, but the pertinent one here is your faith, and my lack of Christian faith. Yours is much stronger than mine. But own up to your limitations as a human being: you cannot possibly speak on behalf of God. To do so makes you sound even more like a charlatan. Now quote me some scripture to tell me I'm wrong.

True. But to extend the same metaphor, Naismith would know every winner, every loser, every score of every game ever played. And he would have known before the creation of time. Bad example.

Again, this is a matter of perspective. Looking at it from a human level, you can see choices being made and responsibility taken for those choices. Fine. And from God's perspective (hypothetically) you can see free will has been exercised while the outcome had been known all along. But from a purely objective and realistic viewpoint, the two perspectives would have to merge. In Reality, God's perspective would have to be taken into account just as my own. To not do so means that His perspective is outside of Reality. I'm sure most of you will probably advocate this. God is outside space and time. Right? But then why ascribe to him such human-like powers. He decides. He creates. He loves. He does things in a similar way to any average middle age white dude. The fact is, if He does exist, no one here could fathom the extent of his powers. Yet some of you claim to be able to do just this. And this is where it breaks down for me.

 

Sadly, I don't think Savage will admit to the limits of his knowledge, nor will MLCKAA own to any doubt he's had about the topic. To do so would open the door for the agnostic in you. And that my zealous geeks makes me feel kinda warm and fuzzy inside.

 

 

HEY! How do I get thrown under the bus here? I already admitted to being resentful toward God for a long time in my life and making all the same arguments you all have been making in this thread. Don't label me a closed-minded fool. Besides, no one is even responding to much of what I've had to say in this thread.

[Blitzen 1]

HEY! How do I get thrown under the bus here? I already admitted to being resentful toward God for a long time in my life and making all the same arguments you all have been making in this thread. Don't label me a closed-minded fool. Besides, no one is even responding to much of what I've had to say in this thread.

 

I think my discussions with MisanthropicAnthropoid covered most if not all of what you brought up. Not sure if you still think I am someone pining for salvation but if you do, you are still 100% incorrect. I cannot feel resentment towards god anymore than I can feel resentment towards a wood sprite.

[Rattlesnake 0]

No human is promised their next breath of air, so they better not take Christ for granted either. The time to come to Christ is now, because tomorrow may never come.

 

And THERE'S the line that keeps us all in check, right?

 

Personally, I don't like the idea of Jesus as the boogeyman........but whatever helps you stay out of trouble, I guess.

[Blitzen 1]

And THERE'S the line that keeps us all in check, right?

 

Personally, I don't like the idea of Jesus as the boogeyman........but whatever helps you stay out of trouble, I guess.

 

SINNERS OF THE WORLD!

 

REPENT...OR BEND OVAH!

[Snoopy1 0]

It's everlasting life in the eternal kingdom of God for those who love and obey him through Christ Jesus their savior.

 

It's worth billions of people going to Hell of their own free will, in order for the billions of people who chose to love God going to Heaven.

 

God didn't want to force anybody to love him, because forced love is not real love.

 

God treats us just like we treat our own children. We don't and can't force our children to love us no matter how much we love and care for them. Our children have to chose to love us, and some do and some don't.

 

 

What about all the people who never were given that choice, like the American Indians, the Chinese until Marco Polo, the Aztecs............ They never had the opportunity to make a choice, did they all end up in hell, too?

[Savage Beast 1]

What about all the people who never were given that choice, like the American Indians, the Chinese until Marco Polo, the Aztecs............ They never had the opportunity to make a choice, did they all end up in hell, too?

 

Read Romans 1:20-21 for your answer.

[BudBro 183]

Jesus said in John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to the Father(God), except through me."

 

So the only way to God and his kingdom is through God's only begotten son the messiah Christ Jesus.

 

i was kinda hoping we'd have some discussion about judas and whether or not he's in hell, but this took a turn.

 

john 14:6 reads "i am the way........, nobody comes to know (or an understanding of) the father, but through me teaching about who god is."

 

this simply means that jesus came to show us and teach how much god cares for us and his intent for our lives. as in another thread, ghandi loved god probably more than any person, but wasn't a christian. so, the traditional understanding says that since ghandi didn't accept christ as his saviour, he's not going to heaven. however, that can hardly be true. so, we use the life and teachings of jesus to know and understand and come to love and live for the god that created us. the southern baptist principles taught as "nobody gets to god except through me" seems mistaught. the way jesus saved us from our sins was to introduce us to a loving god.

[Savage Beast 1]

i was kinda hoping we'd have some discussion about judas and whether or not he's in hell, but this took a turn.

 

john 14:6 reads "i am the way........, nobody comes to know (or an understanding of) the father, but through me teaching about who god is."

 

this simply means that jesus came to show us and teach how much god cares for us and his intent for our lives. as in another thread, ghandi loved god probably more than any person, but wasn't a christian. so, the traditional understanding says that since ghandi didn't accept christ as his saviour, he's not going to heaven. however, that can hardly be true. so, we use the life and teachings of jesus to know and understand and come to love and live for the god that created us. the southern baptist principles taught as "nobody gets to god except through me" seems mistaught. the way jesus saved us from our sins was to introduce us to a loving god.

 

 

 

You are wrong.

 

Verse 6 says no man cometh to the Father except by me. The original Greek manuscript word used for cometh is "erchomai" which means "to appear before."

 

So no man appears before God except through his son.

[Blitzen 1]

Read Romans 1:20-21 for your answer.

 

What verse has next week's winning lottery numbers?

[PistonSteve 0]

Two nuns cycling down a cobbled street. The first one says "I've never come this way before."

 

The second one replies "Must be the cobbles."

[BudBro 183]

You are wrong.

 

Verse 6 says no man cometh to the Father except by me. The original Greek manuscript word used for cometh is "erchomai" which means "to appear before."

 

So no man appears before God except through his son.

so ghandi's out then?

[Savage Beast 1]

so ghandi's out then?

 

Yes.

 

Ghandi is in Hell along with Buddaha, Mohammed, Joseph Smith, L Ron Hubbard, Hitler, etc...... awaiting the Great White Throne Judgement after which he will be cast into the Lake Of Fire with Satan and the false phrophet.

[MisanthropicAnthropoid 0]

what about judas?

 

My guess is that Judas is in hell. Although his actions had positive consequences, we have nothing to suggest that those positive consequences were intended, more a perversion of his plan than a fulfillment of it. And I don't believe he repented before offing himself.

[BudBro 183]

You are wrong.

 

Verse 6 says no man cometh to the Father except by me. The original Greek manuscript word used for cometh is "erchomai" which means "to appear before."

 

So no man appears before God except through his son.

 

1st, jesus spoke mostly aramaic, though he knew greek, and there is no aramaic bible to translate. 2nd, nothing about the verse is indicative of the way jesus spoke about himself, and it's highly likely he never even spoke these words. 3rd, it's not likely john the disciple, nor even a john, wrote the book of john, but instead a sect of early christians. there are some similarities to gospel of thomas that puts these writings in a similar time frame. it's possible that the verse was written for one particular circumstance involving 2 jewish sects within the roman empire and may be of limited use to us today. "me" in this verse means "my teaching and example" not "my unique godhood."

 

this verse, and the stance you take, are precisely the reason interfaith dialogues break down. christians build walls that separate.

[Blitzen 1]

so ghandi's out then?

 

Heaven's a pretty exclusive Club. If Ghandi can't go then I'm definitely out.