Greenway Injury

[swamp dog 0]

Not as wedge busters.

 

really? you think mid-round 1 linebacker rookies are that coddled that they don't play the wedge or any other position on special teams? if brooks can play ANY position on special teams, if deion can return punts (which is still sticking a star player out there on the line on special teams), then mr. "i'm a rookie linebacker not even starting yet" greenway can be thrown out there on special teams.

 

the biggest controversy for this incident is found soley in this thread--and by non-viking fans at that. the media won't make a big issue out of questioning this. why? because rookies play special teams.

[Let Da Big Dog Eat 40]

really? you think mid-round 1 linebacker rookies are that coddled that they don't play the wedge or any other position on special teams? if brooks can play ANY position on special teams, if deion can return punts (which is still sticking a star player out there on the line on special teams), then mr. "i'm a rookie linebacker not even starting yet" greenway can be thrown out there on special teams.

 

the biggest controversy for this incident is found soley in this thread--and by non-viking fans at that. the media won't make a big issue out of questioning this. why? because rookies play special teams.

 

Self banned on a bet from Packer threads so because I am a Pack fan you come in here to try to start an argument with me. Can't stand to not argue with Pack fans regardless of topic?

 

OK, I will play. First, read the entire thread.

 

Then, do not change the premise. Which is, that it was not an intelligent choice to have Greenway busting wedges on KO's when he was drafted to be an impact LB at a position of need for the Vikes. Hard to dispute that. Brooks did not bust wedges that I have ever heard and I am not even sure he played on the KO team. That is your assurtion. Maybe he did, maybe he did not. You say it's true, prove it. If he did play on KO teams, did he do it pre-season and more specifically first pre-season games. Busting wedges? I don't know. But, I would guess not. I find it very hard to believe he was ever a wedge buster. Again, prove it. If you have proof he did go for it.

 

The Deion issue has already been addressed and has already been dismissed as unrelated as irrelevant. Read the thread.

 

Last, since you need a reading comprehension lesson, this thread is about wedge busting specifically not blocking for extra pts attempts.

 

PS, maybe the media isn't saying anything big about it but I am not the media. I am not a slave to them. I think it was a stupid move by the Vikes and that is my opinion. If the media doesn't think it is, I don't care. It's MY opinion. And, proven correct by the result. Greenway is lost for the season. I feel for Vikes fans as there was no reason for this to happen.

[swamp dog 0]

Self banned on a bet from Packer threads so because I am a Pack fan you come in here to try to start an argument with me. Can't stand to not argue with Pack fans regardless of topic?

 

OK, I will play. First, read the entire thread.

 

Then, do not change the premise. Which is, that it was not an intelligent choice to have Greenway busting wedges on KO's when he was drafted to be an impact LB at a position of need for the Vikes. Hard to dispute that. Brooks did not bust wedges that I have ever heard and I am not even sure he played on the KO team. That is your assurtion. Maybe he did, maybe he did not. You say it's true, prove it. If he did play on KO teams, did he do it pre-season and more specifically first pre-season games. Busting wedges? I don't know. But, I would guess not. I find it very hard to believe he was ever a wedge buster. Again, prove it. If you have proof he did go for it.

 

The Deion issue has already been addressed and has already been dismissed as unrelated as irrelevant and unrelated. Read the thread.

 

Last, since you need a reading comprehension lesson, this thread is about wedge busting specifically not blocking for extra pts attempts.

 

PS, maybe the media isn't saying anything big about it but I am not the media. I am not a slave to them. I think it was a stupid move by the Vikes and that is my opinion. If the media doesn't think it is, I don't care. It's MY opinion. And, proven correct by the result. Greenway is lost for the season. I feel for Vikes fans as there was no reason for this to happen.

 

rookies like greenway play the wedge and do the special teams grunt work all the time. yes, the injury is unfortunate. but that's life. he wasn't (from what i heard) going to be a starter at the beginning of the year so unless you're a qb holding a clipboard you need to earn your paycheck--and rookies earn their paychecks on special teams.

 

my point with the media is that no one is making this an issue because they know how football is played: rookies like greenway play special teams. and the point has nothing to do with you being some loner rebel going against the grain and being some "freethinker." knock yourself out, dude--but it's completely irrelevant.

 

pat kirwin did a story way back in 2002 about the changing face of special teams in the salary cap era. players, especially rookies, have to wear multiple hats and be adapt at playing special teams. the finances dictate it. most teams simply don't have the luxury of NOT playing a (non qb) rookie draft pick on special teams. not all of them, mind you. a guy like bush probably isn't going to play special teams--but it's not out of the question that other rookie rbs might (even first rounders). but what's not arguable is that rookie linebackers are somehow traditionally exempt from special teams play.

 

again, a mid-1 rookie linebacker is going to play special teams in most situations. that's reality.

 

and it's also irrelevant that you're a packer fan (lol). you'd be just as wrong if you were a cardinals fan. or any fan.

[Let Da Big Dog Eat 40]

rookies like greenway play the wedge and do the special teams grunt work all the time. yes, the injury is unfortunate. but that's life. he wasn't (from what i heard) going to be a starter at the beginning of the year so unless you're a qb holding a clipboard you need to earn your paycheck--and rookies earn their paychecks on special teams.

 

my point with the media is that no one is making this an issue because they know how football is played: rookies like greenway play special teams. and the point has nothing to do with you being some loner rebel going against the grain and being some "freethinker." knock yourself out, dude--but it's completely irrelevant.

 

 

1st rd draft choices do not do wedge busting "all the time." If so, prove it. I have offered you to prove your numerous "facts" with no attempt by you. Schooled AGAIN!

 

My point was and is that it was a stupid thing for the Vikes to do. And, I have been proven right by the result.

[swamp dog 0]

1st rd draft choices do not do wedge busting "all the time." If so, prove it. I have offered you to prove your numerous "facts" with no attempt by you. Schooled AGAIN!

 

My point was and is that it was a stupid thing for the Vikes to do. And, I have been proven right by the result.

 

lol...weren't you the one claiming you bullied me into being "mr. link"--someone who requires a link when "owned"? make up your mind how you want to use that spin, okay? let me know when you do.

 

if you really believe that MOST if not ALL rookie, round-1-non-skill-position players are exempt from special teams play, i'm simply stunned at your lack of basic nfl football. you further requiring links for such a thing is like requiring a link that the sky is blue.

 

here's one from 2003 about round 1 rookie cb andre woolfolk hoping to establish himself first by playing special teams:

 

http://www.titansradio.com/2003news/news710910.html

 

oh, here's another great link you should enjoy:

 

http://www.sptimes.com/News/081901/news_pf..._to_make_.shtml

 

i particularly love the opening quote of the story:

 

"The first day of training camp, special-teams coach Joe Marciano broke out a tape of the '96 Bucs with John Lynch and Derrick Brooks covering kicks, busting wedges and making tackles." and 96 wasn't even brooks' rookie year. 95 was. imagine that! *gasp*

 

and here's a nutty article from 1998 concerning the dallas cowboys:

 

http://www.caller2.com/sports98/sports20369.html

 

"The game plan calls for Davis, Pro Bowl strong safety Darren Woodson, starting weak-side linebacker Dexter Coakley, starting tight end David LaFleur and starting weak-side defensive end Kavika Pittman to play at least one area of special teams against the Rams." the game plan in question? the next PRESEASON GAME: the cowboys were playing these guys on special teams in a PRESEASON GAME.

 

and wtf is that zany bill cowher and the super bowl champion pittsburg steelers up to?

 

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_379311.html

 

"Ike Taylor, who starts at left cornerback, returns and covers kickoffs.

 

Tight end Jerame Tuman plays on the kickoff return and place-kicking teams.

 

Tight end Heath Miller, who has started the first three games along with Tuman, is on the kickoff-return, punt and place-kicking teams." cowher, you idiot!! don't you know that you shouldn't play rookies on special teams--let alone rookie STARTERS and veteran starters?!!

 

your turn

[Tusekan Raiders 0]

Tedy Bruschi played special teams on those Super Bowl teams when he had already established himself as one of the best LBs in the league. Brian Urlacher played on special teams under Jauron. Most coaches fear hurting their multi-million star on special teams and you have to do something with the rest of your roster to earn their pay, so the conventional wisdom/media brainwashing you never play them there, but there is no rule and I haven't seen any analysis that shows your chances of getting hurt on special teams are higher.

 

Also, Greenway wasn't tearing it up in camp. E.J. Henderson was running with the first squad, so it could have been as much a tactic to remind Greenway to stop reading his press clippings since draft day, where the job was handed to him, and start earning it.

 

You can second guess Childress, but the bottom line is it's an unfortunate accident that could happen anywhere on the field.

[swamp dog 0]

Tedy Bruschi played special teams on those Super Bowl teams when he had already established himself as one of the best LBs in the league. Brian Urlacher played on special teams under Jauron. Most coaches fear hurting their multi-million star on special teams and you have to do something with the rest of your roster to earn their pay, so the conventional wisdom/media brainwashing you never play them there, but there is no rule and I haven't seen any analysis that shows your chances of getting hurt on special teams are higher.

 

Also, Greenway wasn't tearing it up in camp. E.J. Henderson was running with the first squad, so it could have been as much a tactic to remind Greenway to stop reading his press clippings since draft day, where the job was handed to him, and start earning it.

 

You can second guess Childress, but the bottom line is it's an unfortunate accident that could happen anywhere on the field.

 

 

 

although, be careful: the big dog is going to want link verification that teddy and brian played on special teams

[Let Da Big Dog Eat 40]

lol...weren't you the one claiming you bullied me into being "mr. link"--someone who requires a link when "owned"? make up your mind how you want to use that spin, okay? let me know when you do.

 

if you really believe that MOST if not ALL rookie, round-1-non-skill-position players are exempt from special teams play, i'm simply stunned at your lack of basic nfl football. you further requiring links for such a thing is like requiring a link that the sky is blue.

 

here's one from 2003 about round 1 rookie cb andre woolfolk hoping to establish himself first by playing special teams:

 

http://www.titansradio.com/2003news/news710910.html

 

oh, here's another great link you should enjoy:

 

http://www.sptimes.com/News/081901/news_pf..._to_make_.shtml

 

i particularly love the opening quote of the story:

 

"The first day of training camp, special-teams coach Joe Marciano broke out a tape of the '96 Bucs with John Lynch and Derrick Brooks covering kicks, busting wedges and making tackles." and 96 wasn't even brooks' rookie year. 95 was. imagine that! *gasp*

 

and here's a nutty article from 1998 concerning the dallas cowboys:

 

http://www.caller2.com/sports98/sports20369.html

 

"The game plan calls for Davis, Pro Bowl strong safety Darren Woodson, starting weak-side linebacker Dexter Coakley, starting tight end David LaFleur and starting weak-side defensive end Kavika Pittman to play at least one area of special teams against the Rams." the game plan in question? the next PRESEASON GAME: the cowboys were playing these guys on special teams in a PRESEASON GAME.

 

there's many more links where these came from--many more. please let me know if you require all of them.

 

OK, take your meds, calm down and concentrate. From your link,

" The message was clear -- make a play on special teams and you might make a career.

 

Since there are no starting positions and few backup spots available, special teams will determine whether any first-year players are with the club Sept. 9 in Dallas.

 

Among the rookies who have caught Marciano's eye is receiver Robert Kilow, a free agent from Arkansas State who returned a punt 41 yards against Miami Monday night. "

 

Not the things one says about the 17th pick in the first RD. And, of course, the coach speak.

 

 

Look particularly at this:

"Since there are no starting positions and few backup spots available, special teams will determine whether any first-year players are with the club Sept. 9 in Dallas." Does this sound like the Vikes LB situation is '06? Uh, NO!

 

BTW, was Kilow a 1st Rd Pick? Was he busting wedges, no.

 

"there's many more links where these came from--many more. please let me know if you require all of them."

 

Just one with any validity to it.

 

But, you obviscate as always. It is a dumb idea to have a 1st RD draft choice busting wedges on KO's. Give me one reason why that is not correct.

[swamp dog 0]

1st rd draft choices do not do wedge busting "all the time." If so, prove it. I have offered you to prove your numerous "facts" with no attempt by you. Schooled AGAIN!

 

My point was and is that it was a stupid thing for the Vikes to do. And, I have been proven right by the result.

 

(continued):

 

http://www.titansonline.com/news/titans_ne....php?PRKey=2870

 

"Starting free safety Lamont Thompson, who is the team’s returning interception leader, has also been practicing with the special teams units, and he hopes that he can lead by example on a team that has only 11 players with four or more years of experience.

 

“I try to show them,” Thompson said, when asked what he tells the rookies during the special teams practices. “It’s important for them to see the veterans do it, and do it right, and do it at the pace the coaches want them to do it. If they have any questions, or if I see them doing anything that they’re not doing right, or they don’t have the technique the coaches are teaching them, then I will try to help them. We need everybody to participate, so it makes the team as good as possible.”

 

and what the fock were the carolina panthers thinking putting thomas davis--drafted right about where greenway was this year--on special teams last year?

 

"One thing that has helped Davis is playing special teams. He has made a couple of big hits covering kickoffs for the Panthers, and that has eased him into games a lot more.

"That's something I always did in college was allow my special teams play to get me going," said Davis, who was named a first-team All-American at Georgia last year as a junior. "I always started a game on kickoff returns. It allowed me to set the tempo for the day. Go out and make a play on special teams, and it gets you going for the rest of the day. That's been a real key for me."

 

 

 

http://www.panthers.com/news/newsroomNewsDetail.jsp?id=21155

[NJJoe20 0]

Greenway probably volunteered for the job, but the Vikings coaches shouldn't have put him out there in a practice game. On the flip side, he needs to get game experience at the spot for the few times when it would be wise to use a player like Greenway on special teams (ie big games/playoffs). Not a wise use of an investment.

[Let Da Big Dog Eat 40]

You keep trying to bring up stuff on general ST play. Irrelevant. This is specifically about a 1st Rder in a position of need for the Vikes. Your last one:

 

" The message was clear -- make a play on special teams and you might make a career.

 

Since there are no starting positions and few backup spots available, special teams will determine whether any first-year players are with the club Sept. 9 in Dallas.

 

Among the rookies who have caught Marciano's eye is receiver Robert Kilow, a free agent from Arkansas State who returned a punt 41 yards against Miami Monday night. "

 

Totally irrelevant. This is about a 1st RD choice busting wedges. Please take your meds and take a nap with your happy pillow.

[swamp dog 0]

OK, take your meds, calm down and concentrate. From your link,

" The message was clear -- make a play on special teams and you might make a career.

 

Since there are no starting positions and few backup spots available, special teams will determine whether any first-year players are with the club Sept. 9 in Dallas.

 

Among the rookies who have caught Marciano's eye is receiver Robert Kilow, a free agent from Arkansas State who returned a punt 41 yards against Miami Monday night. "

 

Not the things one says about the 17th pick in the first RD. And, of course, the coach speak.

Look particularly at this:

"Since there are no starting positions and few backup spots available, special teams will determine whether any first-year players are with the club Sept. 9 in Dallas." Does this sound like the Vikes LB situation is '06? Uh, NO!

 

BTW, was Kilow a 1st Rd Pick? Was he busting wedges, no.

 

"there's many more links where these came from--many more. please let me know if you require all of them."

 

Just one with any validity to it.

 

But, you obviscate as always. It is a dumb idea to have a 1st RD draft choice busting wedges on KO's. Give me one reason why that is not correct.

 

wtf was this? english? spanish? french? nowhere did you have a coherent thought. before i school you yet again, i'm going to hold you accountable for your original thought: you clearly claim in this thread that rookies like greenway (lol) don't play special teams AND you badger me to provide links that they do--not that "they shouldn't," mind you, but that THEY DON'T. you REPEATEDLY dare me to prove otherwise.

 

i did, not only showing that rookies like greenway (lol) play special teams but that guys like derrick brooks have lined up and busted wedges (please see link #1 if you need smelling salts).

 

that decisively put to bed, i'll indulge you with the only thing you have left: that you simply think it was a bad idea for greenway to be on special teams. you wanted "one good reason" from me why i think otherwise. i'll give you several--how's that for playing along?:

 

1) greenway was #2 on the depth chart behind henderson; therefore he needed to earn playing time somewhere right now: on special teams

2) special teams are vitally important to today's nfl game. there's a reason why guys like brooks, urlacher, bruschi, etc etc etc have played special teams: they are vitally important! a rookie linebacker--someone who can tackle and move well--would be a valuable commodity on a vitally important part of the team.

3) finances dictate the necessity for rookies like greenway to play special teams. there's only so much many, and only so many players. non-skill position players must play multiple positions, including special teams, in order for the team to even be financially solvent enough to put a team on the field in the first place.

[Let Da Big Dog Eat 40]

Greenway probably volunteered for the job, but the Vikings coaches shouldn't have put him out there in a practice game. On the flip side, he needs to get game experience at the spot for the few times when it would be wise to use a player like Greenway on special teams (ie big games/playoffs). Not a wise use of an investment.

 

Likely he did. Thankyou for a rational post in the midst of another delusional, obvisacting deflectional rank by the oft schooled Pup.

[Tusekan Raiders 0]

In what capacity was Sims playing on special teams?

 

Special teams is generally made up of backups...and if rookies...the later round picks. Not the 17th overall pick in the draft.

 

Simms led their special teams in tackles, looks like he was playing extensively on ST.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20060811_DEN@DET

[swamp dog 0]

You keep trying to bring up stuff on general ST play. Irrelevant. This is specifically about a 1st Rder in a position of need for the Vikes. Your last one:

 

" The message was clear -- make a play on special teams and you might make a career.

 

Since there are no starting positions and few backup spots available, special teams will determine whether any first-year players are with the club Sept. 9 in Dallas.

 

Among the rookies who have caught Marciano's eye is receiver Robert Kilow, a free agent from Arkansas State who returned a punt 41 yards against Miami Monday night. "

 

Totally irrelevant. This is about a 1st RD choice busting wedges. Please take your meds and take a nap with your happy pillow.

 

 

"The first day of training camp, special-teams coach Joe Marciano broke out a tape of the '96 Bucs with John Lynch and Derrick Brooks covering kicks, busting wedges and making tackles."

 

1) very important people--much more important than greenway--have and do bust wedges. and yes, many of these people are also round 1 draft picks.

 

2) i provided three solid reasons why your "i didn't like it and i don't think it was a good idea" claim is weak and irrelevant.

 

just because you keep posting doesn't mean you haven't been completely owned. a long time ago. it's a tip.

 

good night.

 

Huh?

No...it should be about whether or not you put guys like a Greenway in what is a high risk position.

 

Injuries will happen...the point...since you seem to have missed a very simple point...is that you generally do not see a #17 overall pick busting up the wedge on special teams in the preseason. That is typically where your backups or later round draft picks are trying to contribute to make the team.

 

incorrect. read my previous posts/links.

 

Likely he did. Thankyou for a rational post in the midst of another delusional, obvisacting deflectional rank by the oft schooled Pup.

 

lol...yeah, "most likely he did volunteer." and you applaud this non-link supported out-of-the-blue-claim-from-the-hiney as being rational?

 

in the words of "da big dog": LINK PLEASE!

 

o-w-n-e-d, dude. get over it.

[Let Da Big Dog Eat 40]

wtf was this? english? spanish? french? nowhere did you have a coherent thought. before i school you yet again, i'm going to hold you accountable for your original thought: you clearly claim in this thread that rookies like greenway (lol) don't play special teams AND you badger me to provide links that they do--not that "they shouldn't," mind you, but that THEY DON'T. you REPEATEDLY dare me to prove otherwise.

 

i did, not only showing that rookies like greenway (lol) play special teams but that guys like derrick brooks have lined up and busted wedges (please see link #1 if you need smelling salts).

 

that decisively put to bed, i'll indulge you with the only thing you have left: that you simply think it was a bad idea for greenway to be on special teams. you wanted "one good reason" from me why i think otherwise. i'll give you several--how's that for playing along?:

 

1) greenway was #2 on the depth chart behind henderson; therefore he needed to earn playing time somewhere right now: on special teams

2) special teams are vitally important to today's nfl game. there's a reason why guys like brooks, urlacher, bruschi, etc etc etc have played special teams: they are vitally important! a rookie linebacker--someone who can tackle and move well--would be a valuable commodity on a vitally important part of the team.

3) finances dictate the necessity for rookies like greenway to play special teams. there's only so much many, and only so many players. non-skill position players must play multiple positions, including special teams, in order for the team to even be financially solvent enough to put a team on the field in the first place.

 

 

Uh, I realize English is a second language for you but most of that post was quoted from your link. And, once again, reading comprehension, I did not say ALL rook's should not play ST which is what you have tried to deflect this to. I have said specifically (over and over again) that Greenway (1st Rd pick at a postion of need) should not have been wedge busting.

1. That is not the point. And, never has been mine. See above.

2. Possibly, but not as a wedge buster.

3. 1st rd draft choices should bust wedges rather than undrafted rooks's and FA's because it makes economic sense. Again, you really need your med's pal.

[swamp dog 0]

Not as wedge busters.

 

this is from post #40 where you claimed guys like brooks didn't wedge bust. read post #40, then post #55.

 

then read this line from your own post #42: "Brooks did not bust wedges that I have ever heard and I am not even sure he played on the KO team."

 

repeat the above, rinse, repeat. as necessary.

[BirdBradyBobbyOrr 0]

Swamp Dog owned you.

 

Many veterans play special teams although not often in pre season. This was a rookie LB and as far as I know don't they pretty much always play some special teams? You gotta earn your stripes and this Greenway wasn't even a starter yet, so damn right he should playing Special teams.

[Let Da Big Dog Eat 40]

Swamp Dog owned you.

 

Many veterans play special teams although not often in pre season. This was a rookie LB and as far as I know don't they pretty much always play some special teams? You gotta earn your stripes and this Greenway wasn't even a starter yet, so damn right he should playing Special teams.

 

I never said Greenway should not play ST. I said it was stupid that he should be wedge busting. And, yes most rook's play ST's, and the marginal ones make the roster that way.

 

Are you SD2? Get on track here. I have said and will continue to say that a 1st RD pick in a position of need for the Vikes should not be going down on KO's to bust up wedges. It's that simple. And, I have been proven correct.

[Tusekan Raiders 0]

Let me break it down for you so you understand, I'll hold your hand like a small child: owned.

 

The faster you stop responding, the quicker this post falls off the page, the less people see the shame of getting owned by swamp dog. Yes, it's a sad state of affairs, but there is no spin left to salvage this.

[Let Da Big Dog Eat 40]

Let me break it down for you so you understand, I'll hold your hand like a small child: owned.

 

The faster you stop responding, the quicker this post falls off the page, the less people see the shame of getting owned by swamp dog. Yes, it's a sad state of affairs, but there is no spin left to salvage this.

 

Uh, why? I have seen nothing that you have said that would support your post. You have added nothing to this thread. I posted an opinion which is supported by fact. You offer nothing.

[jeffkomlo 19]

as much as it pains me, you are owned by Swamp dog! (must be taking his meds as prescribed)

 

From Minneapolis Star Tribune

Greenway also appeared the most game-ready rookie on the team. Although he was playing behind E.J. Henderson at weak-side linebacker, Greenway was part of the goal-line/short-yardage defense and also several special teams units.

 

Greenway, in fact, made a shoe-string tackle of Raiders punt returner Chris Carr, early in the first quarter Monday night, limiting a potentially long return to 7 yards. But with 4 minutes, 11 seconds remaining in the quarter, Greenway awkwardly twisted the knee while bracing under a block on kickoff coverage.

 

That's why he was covering, he was on special team unit.

[Sho Nuff 720]

really? you think mid-round 1 linebacker rookies are that coddled that they don't play the wedge or any other position on special teams? if brooks can play ANY position on special teams, if deion can return punts (which is still sticking a star player out there on the line on special teams), then mr. "i'm a rookie linebacker not even starting yet" greenway can be thrown out there on special teams.

 

the biggest controversy for this incident is found soley in this thread--and by non-viking fans at that. the media won't make a big issue out of questioning this. why? because rookies play special teams.

 

Not that they just "don't"...but that it is very rare.

And while Brooks "can" play any position...does it mean he does?

 

And again...there is no comparison between returning punts and busting up the wedge. None.

 

Rookies do play special teams...17th overall picks generally do not play the wedge buster in the first preseason game...

[swamp dog 0]

Not that they just "don't"...but that it is very rare.

And while Brooks "can" play any position...does it mean he does?

 

And again...there is no comparison between returning punts and busting up the wedge. None.

 

Rookies do play special teams...17th overall picks generally do not play the wedge buster in the first preseason game...

 

 

"The first day of training camp, special-teams coach Joe Marciano broke out a tape of the '96 Bucs with John Lynch and Derrick Brooks covering kicks, busting wedges and making tackles. "

 

http://www.sptimes.com/News/081901/news_pf..._to_make_.shtml

 

 

are you really--and i mean REALLY--that clueless after this page 2 to continue this line of thinking?

 

unbelievable