Make a ruling on the Buckhalter TD for our league

[cmh6476 1,126]

email sent out to league participants:

 

There has been an issue come up that has not been addressed, and just to make sure everyone is up to speed on the situtation I will start from the beginning and lay it all out.

 

NFL.com is awarding a fumble return for a TD for Buckhalter's TD run, and they are also doing the same thing on a Minnesota TD.

 

In my opinion (which is how I ruled on our ponyexpress league website), NFL.com has them both listed as return TDs, which I have awarded to the team defense in question. This is not what CBS has done, they have failed to award points to anyone in this situation, neither Buckhalter or Philly D on that one, and haven't given anything to the Minnesota guy that recovered the fumble in the endzone or Minnesota's D.

 

The tricky part is this, our league states that we go off the official stats from NFL.com. This could come up each and every week, and just by coincidence it did twice this week. I have been going back and forth with my friend foot on this issue because he scores defenses the exact same as we do, except he doesn't use a website and totals everything himself.

 

Which in essence is what we do as well, we just have CBS to utilize for the live scoring. My site is still the official site and final results. Not saying I'm making the final ruling and everything I have stands, as this is something that will definitely have to be addressed as a league and could change.

 

But for Foot and myself, we cannot go into NFL.com each week and differentiate between an offensive or defensive fumble recovery. There is no way to tell unless you go back through play-by-play and investigate each and every instance of a fumble recovery for a TD.

 

So really, it would be impossible for me as a commissioner to go through each game and try and figure out whether it was an offensive or defensive touchdown.

 

And just to be fair, I'm not trying to persuade you guys because it is going to help me beat Jim. In my other league, I am playing against the Philadelphia defense and this exact same ruling could wind up beating me, so I'm on both sides of this one.

 

All our league rules state is that a defensive or special teams TD counts for 7 points, and the way it is listed on NFL.com it is a team TD, so for the moment I have awarded Philadelphia 7 points and will give Minnesota 7 points for theirs.

 

I would like to hear everyone's opinion on this issue. I know where Bub and Jim stand so I want to hear what everyone else has to say. Remember, if you think it should not be a defensive TD, then we are opening a whole new can of worms because it will be a question each and every week from NFL.com as to any and every fumble returned for a TD. It would be hard to justify saying after the fact that each fumble returned for a TD as listed on NFL.com must be justified by the commissioner...

[Chronic Husker 86]

It's obvious you're just trying to screw Jim over. You've complained about him here quite a bit in the past.

[Mephisto 15]

LMAO at you making it a defensive TD.

 

Nice move!

 

I hope you're prepared to award a point to every team defense who has ever recovered one of their own offensive fumbles. That's what your league is going to ask for! Pure, GENIUS, cmh. PURE GENIUS!!!

[cmh6476 1,126]

It's obvious you're just trying to screw Jim over. You've complained about him here quite a bit in the past.

 

 

he is an MU fan

 

 

anyways, anyone know when the Randy Moss lateral happenned? I want to reference that game boxscore as everyone seems to be going back to that play. I see those two as different cause I think they ruled that one a lateral, but here it appears they are ruling the ball went forward before going back to Buckhalter:

 

(10:57) (No Huddle) D.McNabb pass deep right to R.Brown to WAS 35 for 20 yards (S.Springs). FUMBLES (S.Springs), touched at WAS 34, recovered by PHI-C.Buckhalter at WAS 37. C.Buckhalter for 37 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

[FBH ** 0]

How can it possibly be a defensive TD if no member of the defense or special teams is on the field? To me that is the answer to the question. It is a fumble recovery and run for a TD you count the yardage he gained as rushing yards and the TD is a rushing TD. This is very cut and dry to me, I cannot even see the logic that would make this a DST TD.

 

Here is a simplified answer: Is that fumble any different than a lateral? Is a lateral any different than a pitch play? So should every pitch play be scored as a DST TD?

[cmh6476 1,126]

LMAO at you making it a defensive TD.

 

Nice move!

 

I hope you're prepared to award a point to every team defense who has ever recovered one of their own offensive fumbles. That's what you're league is going to ask for! Pure, GENIUS, cmh. PURE GENIUS!!!

 

it was ruled a defensive TD against me

 

 

The whole thing is, if you use nfl.com boxscore as the official results, how can a commissioner possibly be engaged enough on every single game in the NFL to determine whether these are all offensive possessions or if the defense did. The way it's scored on NFL.com's boxscore you couldnt tell between the 2...

 

 

And our rules just simply aren't elaborated enough to make a clear distinction, hence the discrepency.

[TimmySmith 2,783]

Both TDs were neither a defensive or special teams TD. To say this would be ridiculous. There was no change of possession (which really is the defintion of an D/ST TD) and in each case they really were not returns, but continuations of offensive plays.

[cbfalcon 827]

This will all be moot once the NFL changes it to a passing TD from McNabb to Buckhalter. Brown never came close to having control of that ball.

[Mephisto 15]

it was ruled a defensive TD against me

The whole thing is, if you use nfl.com boxscore as the official results, how can a commissioner possibly be engaged enough on every single game in the NFL to determine whether these are all offensive possessions or if the defense did. The way it's scored on NFL.com's boxscore you couldnt tell between the 2...

And our rules just simply aren't elaborated enough to make a clear distinction, hence the discrepency.

 

Hence... it doesn't matter. You've chosen what has to be the WORST possible option given every available interpretation.

 

So it happened twice this week. It doesn't happen often enough for you to not score it the proper way... a completion to Reggie Brown with a fumble... a 35-yard fumble recovery for score by Buckhalter.

 

A TD for the DST? You're stupid.

[cmh6476 1,126]

How can it possibly be a defensive TD if no member of the defense or special teams is on the field? To me that is the answer to the question. It is a fumble recovery and run for a TD you count the yardage he gained as rushing yards and the TD is a rushing TD. This is very cut and dry to me, I cannot even see the logic that would make this a DST TD.

 

Here is a simplified answer: Is that fumble any different than a lateral? Is a lateral any different than a pitch play? So should every pitch play be scored as a DST TD?

 

 

It was not ruled that way on NFL.com, so why should that be the answer?

 

That was the answer on the Moss lateral, because they ruled it went backwards and Moe Williams I think it was was awarded a 12 yard TD run from the point of the lateral.

 

 

Here, if you look at the play-by-play, the ball went from the Was 35 where it was fumbled, forward to the 34 where it was touched by Shawn Springs and then back to Buckhalter who then was awarded a recovery and TD. This isn't a rushing TD, a lateral for a TD, or a reception for a TD.

 

But at the same time I don't necessarily think it should be a defensive TD either. But if our rules state a team TD is good for 7 points, how can you not award this to the defense if that is all your league rules state?

[cbfalcon 827]

This will all be moot once the NFL changes it to a passing TD from McNabb to Buckhalter. Brown never came close to having control of that ball.

[cmh6476 1,126]

This will all be moot once the NFL changes it to a passing TD from McNabb to Buckhalter. Brown never came close to having control of that ball.

 

 

it shows they have it scored as touched by Shawn Springs in front of the point of the fumble, and then back to Buckhalter, which would mean this couldn't be a lateral. Completion maybe, but I doubt it is changed back to that either.

[Mephisto 15]

how can you not award this to the defense if that is all your league rules state?

 

It's simple... no change of possession. No defensive recovery.

 

As I said... if you are going to give an award to the DEFENSE when an offense recovers its own fumble (TD or no TD)... then you're being consistent.

 

The choice you have made will open up this scenario if any one or more of your owners has a shred of intelligence (because their Commissioner surely doesn't). So, now instead of MAYBE having to check for lines like this... you've put yourself in a position to have to rule that way on every single fumble that is recovered by the same team.

 

EXCELLENT choice, cmh.

[cmh6476 1,126]

Hence... it doesn't matter. You've chosen what has to be the WORST possible option given every available interpretation.

 

So it happened twice this week. It doesn't happen often enough for you to not score it the proper way... a completion to Reggie Brown with a fumble... a 35-yard fumble recovery for score by Buckhalter.

 

A TD for the DST? You're stupid.

 

 

So you're saying Buckhalter should be awarded a 35 yard TD? I might be fine with that, if CBS would just make a ruling and score it one way or the other.

 

 

To this point they're not and leaving us with the decision to make.

 

It's simple... no change of possession. No defensive recovery.

 

As I said... if you are going to give an award to the DEFENSE when an offense recovers its own fumble (TD or no TD)... then you're being consistent.

 

The choice you have made will open up this scenario if any one or more of your owners has a shred of intelligence (because their Commissioner surely doesn't). So, now instead of MAYBE having to check for lines like this... you've put yourself in a position to have to rule that way on every single fumble that is recovered by the same team.

 

EXCELLENT choice, cmh.

 

 

Either way it is going to have to be redefined. I'm in two leagues with scoring setup the exact same way for team defenses, my league that I commish was derived from the other one I was in first. That commissioner chose to award the TDs to defensive teams for any int or fumble return, because that's the way it's laid out in the boxscore.

 

Until I hear from our league owners, I am doing the same because that is the way our league is setup. If the guys go changing and making a rule midseason to fix what appears to be errant league ruling, then I think they're the ones opening the new can of worms...

[First and Long 0]

it shows they have it scored as touched by Shawn Springs in front of the point of the fumble, and then back to Buckhalter, which would mean this couldn't be a lateral. Completion maybe, but I doubt it is changed back to that either.

 

It can't be a lateral if the receiver didn't catch the ball. He was saying it was merely a tipped ball until Buckhalter caught the ball and ran it in for a TD -- therefore TD pass from McNabb to Buckhalter. Kind of emaculate reception-esque...

[cbfalcon 827]

it shows they have it scored as touched by Shawn Springs in front of the point of the fumble, and then back to Buckhalter, which would mean this couldn't be a lateral. Completion maybe, but I doubt it is changed back to that either.

 

no, I agree with your ruling...for now.

 

 

But anyone that saw the play knows Brown never had the ball, thus never fumbled....

 

what REALLY happened was Brown bobbled it and it bounced off Springs into Buckhalters arms.

 

It should have just been a completed pass to Buckhalter.

 

That said, as long as it's ruled a fumble, then defensive td is the best option I think.

[cmh6476 1,126]

It can't be a lateral if the receiver didn't catch the ball. He was saying it was merely a tipped ball until Buckhalter caught the ball and ran it in for a TD -- therefore TD pass from McNabb to Buckhalter. Kind of emaculate reception-esque...

 

 

that's not true either, Brown was given a reception of 20 yards on the play.

[Mephisto 15]

Oh it did not happen that way. Anyone who saw the game saw Brown catch the ball... then he was hit in the back by Springs and the ball popped up in the air, slightly backwards... Buckhalter caught it in mid-air on the fly and took it in for the score.

[cmh6476 1,126]

no, I agree with your ruling...for now.

But anyone that saw the play knows Brown never had the ball, thus never fumbled....

 

what REALLY happened was Brown bobbled it and it bounced off Springs into Buckhalters arms.

 

It should have just been a completed pass to Buckhalter.

 

That said, as long as it's ruled a fumble, then defensive td is the best option I think.

 

that would be even worse for NFL.com to change it to, as I was going against the McNabb owner as well

 

Oh it did not happen that way. Anyone who saw the game saw Brown catch the ball... then he was hit in the back by Springs and the ball popped up in the air, slightly backwards... Buckhalter caught it in mid-air on the fly and took it in for the score.

 

that's kind of what I thought too, but the fact of the matter is it was not ruled that way. You can't score on mere speculation

[Chronic Husker 86]

Yep. I was right. Jim is getting bent over and focked.

[First and Long 0]

that's not true either, Brown was given a reception of 20 yards on the play.

 

I was just trying to clarify. I have to admit that I thought it was an intentional lateral when I saw the play live but it went by pretty quickly. I didn't get a chance to see the replay and I can't find it on youtube.

 

That being said, I don't understand how it could be a defensive TD without a change of possession.

[andy1234 0]

Sorry im late, but i do remember what happened for that randy moss lateral a couple yeards ago. I had culpepper on my team at the time, and they give cuplepper all the yds and a TD, with the person who lateraled it the yds he gained, and moss the rest with the TD.

[FBH ** 0]

Here is the box score from NFL.com

 

2ND QUARTER

TD Correll Buckhalter, 37 Yd fumble return (David Akers kick is good), 10:44.

 

What leads you to believe that this is a defensive TD? I really do not understand that ruling at all. I am really confused as to how you justified this ruling when the rules were made, but if your rules state that ALL fumble recoveries = Defensive TD, you have to stand by that. But you REALLY need to make sure that you ammend your rules for next year because if the Eagles D gets rewarded for that than that is just a terrible ruling.

[cmh6476 1,126]

Sorry im late, but i do remember what happened for that randy moss lateral a couple yeards ago. I had culpepper on my team at the time, and they give cuplepper all the yds and a TD, with the person who lateraled it the yds he gained, and moss the rest with the TD.

 

 

if it weren't for NFL.com citing Springs as touching the ball when it went forward, I could see this play being scored the same way.

 

 

I just think it's ludicrous for CBS Sportsline to not be awarding any points anywhere for this play. Something happenned, dammit!

 

Here is the box score from NFL.com

 

2ND QUARTER

TD Correll Buckhalter, 37 Yd fumble return (David Akers kick is good), 10:44.

 

What leads you to believe that this is a defensive TD? I really do not understand that ruling at all. I am really confused as to how you justified this ruling when the rules were made, but if your rules state that ALL fumble recoveries = Defensive TD, you have to stand by that. But you REALLY need to make sure that you ammend your rules for next year because if the Eagles D gets rewarded for that than that is just a terrible ruling.

 

 

all the rules really state is that defensive and special teams TDs = 7 points.

 

 

In my other league stated the same way I am playing against Philly's D which has been given 15 points.

 

 

And in the league I am using Philly's D (which scores the same as my other league) I have a feeling I'm going to have a fight on my hands to get 15 points out of their defense.

 

 

Sucks to be me

 

 

If you are a league commissioner assigned to going back and looking at the boxscore to give 7 points for all D and ST TDs, how could you possibly go in and be able to tell that this shouldnt go for 7 to Philly's D, and then give 7 to Minnesota's D as well. Obviously we're going to have to clarify our rules for next year, but this year I have a feeling I'm gonna get bent over and CH'd.

 

 

also, this will all be a moot point if I can just get 20 more points from S Smith than Kasay scores, and if we can just limit Kasay to less than 9 points in my other league

 

Hopefully this discussion will be all for naught.

[Chronic Husker 86]

Sorry im late, but i do remember what happened for that randy moss lateral a couple yeards ago. I had culpepper on my team at the time, and they give cuplepper all the yds and a TD, with the person who lateraled it the yds he gained, and moss the rest with the TD.

I don't think so. First of all, Moss caught the ball and lateralled it. Second, Culpepper didn't get the TD. Thanks for the confusion, though.

[First and Long 0]

if it weren't for NFL.com citing Springs as touching the ball when it went forward, I could see this play being scored the same way.

I just think it's ludicrous for CBS Sportsline to not be awarding any points anywhere for this play. Something happenned, dammit!

 

Seems to me that it should be a 20 yard reception from McNabb to Brown, a fumble by Brown (not lost) and a recovery and return TD for Buckhalter. Therefore, 6 points for Bucky and probably no rushing yards since it's a "return". Agree/disagree?

 

 

I don't think so. First of all, Moss caught the ball and lateralled it. Second, Culpepper didn't get the TD. Thanks for the confusion, though.

 

I agree -- I thought C-pep did NOT get a TD on that play.

[cmh6476 1,126]

Seems to me that it should be a 20 yard reception from McNabb to Brown, a fumble by Brown (not lost) and a recovery and return TD for Buckhalter. Therefore, 6 points for Bucky and probably no rushing yards since it's a "return". Agree/disagree?

I agree -- I thought C-pep did NOT get a TD on that play.

 

 

I don't think that's possible if the ball went forward from the point of the fumble and was touched by Shawn Springs

 

 

also, can anyone reference that Minnesota game with the Moss lateral so I can go back and take a look at that boxscore?

 

tia

 

I agree -- I thought C-pep did NOT get a TD on that play.

 

 

I thought it was a pass by C'Pepp and reception by Moss for the yards, and then a rushing TD for Moe from the point of the lateral

[First and Long 0]

What's the "official" definition of a fumble? Can it be a fumble if it never touched the ground? If they're calling it a fumble, shouldn't Brown be the only player who could advance the ball? This is a very messed up play...

[Chronic Husker 86]

I don't think that's possible if the ball went forward from the point of the fumble and was touched by Shawn Springs

This makes no sense. What does Springs touching the ball have jack shit have to do with it? Posession never changed.

[cmh6476 1,126]

What's the "official" definition of a fumble? Can it be a fumble if it never touched the ground? If they're calling it a fumble, shouldn't Brown be the only player who could advance the ball? This is a very messed up play...

my guess is no because it was touched by Shawn Springs

[FBH ** 0]

HTH Here is the Bucks Box Score according to CBS Sportsline

 

November Rushing Receiving Fumbles

GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Att Yds Avg Lg TD Rec Yds Avg Lg TD Fum Rec Yds TD

11/12 WAS W 27-3 No 8 20 2.5 6 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 0 1 37 1

 

Looks like he got the TD according to this line. Stats are identical on NFL.com

[cmh6476 1,126]

This makes no sense. What does Springs touching the ball have jack shit have to do with it? Posession never changed.

it turned the play into a fumble recovery, as oppossed to a lateral or completion to buckhalter.

[mahoney 9]

does anyone remember the Monday Night game about 4 years ago...Tampa Bay vs. Indy (i think)

Buc receiver caught the ball, fumbled it...Colts player picked it up, fumbled it...

Keenan McCardell recoverdd fumble and ran for touchdown.

How was that scored....

(I think same game with Peyton and Colts amazing comeback, into overtime and then victory).

[FBH ** 0]

it turned the play into a fumble recovery, as oppossed to a lateral or completion to buckhalter.

 

Springs touching the ball would have no effect on whether it is a fumble, lateral, or completion. Passes can be deflected and are not then called fumble recoveries, they are completions.

[First and Long 0]

does anyone remember the Monday Night game about 4 years ago...Tampa Bay vs. Indy (i think)

Buc receiver caught the ball, fumbled it...Colts player picked it up, fumbled it...

Keenan McCardell recoverdd fumble and ran for touchdown.

How was that scored....

(I think same game with Peyton and Colts amazing comeback, into overtime and then victory).

 

That's different. There was a change of possession, so the TB offense became the "defense"... I think. This is making my brain hurt.

[cmh6476 1,126]

Springs touching the ball would have no effect on whether it is a fumble, lateral, or completion. Passes can be deflected and are not then called fumble recoveries, they are completions.

 

 

unless they are crediting springs with causing the fumble, but still it went forward and then back to buckhalter and therefore cannot be a lateral.

[Chronic Husker 86]

HTH Here is the Bucks Box Score according to CBS Sportsline

 

November Rushing Receiving Fumbles

GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Att Yds Avg Lg TD Rec Yds Avg Lg TD Fum Rec Yds TD

11/12 WAS W 27-3 No 8 20 2.5 6 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 0 1 37 1

 

Looks like he got the TD according to this line. Stats are identical on NFL.com

 

This should close the deal. A 37 yard TD reception.

[OD99 0]

does anyone remember the Monday Night game about 4 years ago...Tampa Bay vs. Indy (i think)

Buc receiver caught the ball, fumbled it...Colts player picked it up, fumbled it...

Keenan McCardell recoverdd fumble and ran for touchdown.

How was that scored....

(I think same game with Peyton and Colts amazing comeback, into overtime and then victory).

 

I was just thinking the same thing - I believe on Fanball they gave it to the Tampa D and everyone was up in arms over it but the thought process went something like this:

 

Once the Colts recovered the ball all Bucs players on the field essentially became defensive players because they were trying to prevent the other team from scoring. When Keenan recovered the ball, he was acting in a defensive capacity and ended up taking it to the house for a TD.

 

We ended up deciding that for freak plays like that we would just accept whatever the website scored it as.

 

What I think is a more appropriate reference just happened this year in the Giants / Eagles game.

 

Plax caught a pass and fumbled on the Eagles 10 - the ball ended up bouncing into the endzone and was recovered by a NYG. How did the league deal with that one? What was the scoring?

[First and Long 0]

unless they are crediting springs with causing the fumble, but still it went forward and then back to buckhalter and therefore cannot be a lateral.

 

I checked the rules for fumbles (see below). Seems to me that since any offensive player can advance the ball on this fumble that Buckhalter should get 37 yards rushing and a TD on offense. McNabb and Brown should be credited with the 20 yard reception.

 

Per nfl.com:

 

Fumble

1. The distinction between a fumble and a muff should be kept in mind in considering rules about fumbles. A fumble is the loss of player possession of the ball. A muff is the touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to obtain possession.

 

2. A fumble may be advanced by any player on either team regardless of whether recovered before or after ball hits the ground.

 

3. A fumble that goes forward and out of bounds will return to the fumbling team at the spot of the fumble unless the ball goes out of bounds in the opponent’s end zone. In this case, it is a touchback.

 

4. On a play from scrimmage, if an offensive player fumbles anywhere on the field during fourth down, only the fumbling player is permitted to recover and/or advance the ball. If any player fumbles after the two-minute warning in a half, only the fumbling player is permitted to recover and/or advance the ball. If recovered by any other offensive player, the ball is dead at the spot of the fumble unless it is recovered behind the spot of the fumble. In that case, the ball is dead at the spot of recovery. Any defensive player may recover and/or advance any fumble at any time.

 

5. A muffed hand-to-hand snap from center is treated as a fumble.

[OD99 0]

 

This should close the deal. A 37 yard TD reception.

 

Actually it is stating it was a recovered fumble with 37 return yds for a TD