vetoable, dumb or makin too much of it

[Cylon Patrol 0]

THis thread.....

[Guest _my_2_cents_]

Really? Larry Johnson signs his contract and Huard wins the starting job from Croyle does not raise kennison's value?

I think it raises his value a great deal..

 

Like anyone thoght LJ would sit out the season? Please.

 

And I agree it raises his value - perhaps I was being extreme. Does it raise his value by 11 rounds from a 15th round pick to a 4th?

 

I fail to see how that's possible.

 

I'll tell you what - I draft on Sunday in my most competitive league outside the WCOFF. I'll come back and post where Kennison went. If it's the 4th round I will eat all the crow in the world, and if it's ahead of Andre Johnson I will immediately quit playing fantasy football forever as that will be proof positive that I don't have a single clue about valuation of players.

 

I won't hold my breath on either.

[Dr. Octopus 0]

But here it's a 3rd for a 6th and a 4th for a 15th.

 

Let's look at it from another angle. It's pre-draft and one team in your league wants to deal draft picks to another team. He offers a 3rd and 4th round pick for the other team's 6th and 15th round pick. The trade is accepted and the league goes nuts over it. You as the commish have to make a ruling. Now there aren't even any names or perceptions of value involved - just the picks. Is that a fair deal? What's the benefit to the owner giving up his 3rd and 4th for the 6th and 15th? Does it not jeopardize league balance to giftwrap a second 3rd and a second 4th rounder to the team benefitting?

 

Do you allow it?

 

That is riduclous (it would never happen) and now you are the one tossing out "straw man" arguments. These are no longer "picks" they are now "players".

 

I know what you are saying about when the players were drafted, but to me with the time that has passed I don't consider it as relevant. Things have changed since then, don't you agree with that.

 

So in your mind this is collusion? or are you simply saying the trade is unfair? I feel I've shown plenty of reasonable scenarios where this is not automatcially collusion (review a few posts above if you must)

 

Again: What if one guy is just a good salesman and "convinced" the other guy, he'd be stupid not to make this trade after alll that has occurred since the draft (to hell with where they were drafted). Do you feel it's your place to protect the league from this "shyster"? Isn't trade negotiations a big part of fantasy? It is in my leagues?

 

I've seen some crazy secnarios on these boards. This one isn't even close to collusion imo. I think the only reason why anyone would veteo it is because they are projecting their beliefs (and ADP and other sites, etc.) onto both sides.

[Sho Nuff 720]

Really? Larry Johnson signs his contract and Huard wins the starting job from Croyle does not raise kennison's value?

I think it raises his value a great deal..

 

Raises his value a bit yes...still makes him bench fodder and a likely drop when some hot shot rookie comes out of nowhere.

[Sho Nuff 720]

That is riduclous (it would never happen) and now you are the one tossing out "straw man" arguments. These are no longer "picks" they are now "players".

 

I know what you are saying about when the players were drafted, but to me with the time that has passed I don't consider it as relevant. Things have changed since then, don't you agree with that.

 

So in your mind this is collusion? or are you simply saying the trade is unfair? I feel I've shown plenty of reasonable scenarios where this is not automatcially collusion (review a few posts above if you must)

 

Again: What if one guy is just a good salesman and "convinced" the other guy, he'd be stupid not to make this trade after alll that has occurred since the draft (to hell with where they were drafted). Do you feel it's your place to protect the league from this "shyster"? Isn't trade negotiations a big part of fantasy? It is in my leagues?

 

I've seen some crazy secnarios on these boards. This one isn't even close to collusion imo. I think the only reason why anyone would veteo it is because they are projecting their beliefs (and ADP and other sites, etc.) onto both sides.

 

Things have not changed enough to make this trade even close to something that could be considered even.

[lambert58 71]

Like anyone thoght LJ would sit out the season? Please.

 

And I agree it raises his value - perhaps I was being extreme. Does it raise his value by 11 rounds from a 15th round pick to a 4th?

 

I fail to see how that's possible.

 

I'll tell you what - I draft on Sunday in my most competitive league outside the WCOFF. I'll come back and post where Kennison went. If it's the 4th round I will eat all the crow in the world, and if it's ahead of Andre Johnson I will immediately quit playing fantasy football forever as that will be proof positive that I don't have a single clue about valuation of players.

 

I won't hold my breath on either.

 

 

But once again, and again, and again, draft round does not matter. Some players prefer to target wide receivers earlier than other players. I am one of those who waits until the late rounds because I believe that after the top 3 or so receivers most of the rest are the same. For example, based off of the last 4 years averages here is what you have.

 

Kennison 975.25 yards per season 5.75 touchdowns

 

Johnson 988.25 yards per season 4.25 touchdowns.

 

Despite these FACTUAL averages Andre Johnson consistently went several rounds higher to a player who believed in the hype. The player who waited 5 or 6 rounds to get Kennison might have believed they were rated equal and thus received a better value for kennison for the same, if not slightly better, production.

 

I personally have Kennison and Johnson rated in the same tier. Nothing has been done to prove that they don't belong in the same tier. I can't help it if some Johnson fan fell for the hype and picked him 8 rounds higher than his production shows he should be picked.

[Guest _my_2_cents_]

That is riduclous (it would never happen) and now you are the one tossing out "straw man" arguments. These are no longer "picks" they are now "players".

 

I know what you are saying about when the players were drafted, but to me with the time that has passed I don't consider it as relevant. Things have changed since then, don't you agree with that.

 

So in your mind this is collusion? or are you simply saying the trade is unfair? I feel I've shown plenty of reasonable scenarios where this is not automatcially collusion (review a few posts above if you must)

 

Again: What if one guy is just a good salesman and "convinced" the other guy, he'd be stupid not to make this trade after alll that has occurred since the draft (to hell with where they were drafted). Do you feel it's your place to protect the league from this "shyster"? Isn't trade negotiations a big part of fantasy? It is in my leagues?

 

I've seen some crazy secnarios on these boards. This one isn't even close to collusion imo. I think the only reason why anyone would veteo it is because they are projecting their beliefs (and ADP and other sites, etc.) onto both sides.

 

Fair enough. As for the question, I'm not sure what it is because no one I know would be retarded enough to make this deal, nor is anyone I know unscrupulous enough to try to "sell" some inexperienced owner on it. Nor does my league have any owner inexperienced enough to fall for it....so all this is a mental exercise. lol

 

But I wasn't making a slippery slope - that doesn't fit at all - I was stripping down the trade to illustrate the point of why I would veto it if the league vote (50%+) dictated that I had to make a ruling.

 

And I would veto it for a number of reasons. Primarily because I know if the league is already in an uproar about it, that I am expected to act to preserve league integrity and prevent one owners extreme stupidity from ruining the season for 10 others. It's like Orwell's "shooting an elephant" - is it right for me to shoot the elephant? Maybe and maybe not, but in some ways I am forced to do so in order to preserve harmony. And I know, the "what if everyone's voting it down to hurt one team" - that might hold water in leagues with people who don't know each other but I can only speak for my league where no one would do that.

 

I'm sure there's a million angles to look at this from, but when I look at where the owners drafted these players and that the Jacobs/AJ owner passed on Caddy for 2 rounds and Kennison for 10 rounds, I cannot fathom why he'd suddenly flip flop his valuations to this extreme. As mentioned - if it was a 3/4 for a 4/5 I'd not even blink. I'd call the league whiners and pass the trade. But it's not. It's a 3/4 for a 6/15 and at some point i have to value them somehow. You complain about it being my opinion, yet there I am as commish and under the league constitution my opinion is the final determining factor.

[Dr. Octopus 0]

Like anyone thoght LJ would sit out the season? Please.

 

And I agree it raises his value - perhaps I was being extreme. Does it raise his value by 11 rounds from a 15th round pick to a 4th?

 

I fail to see how that's possible.

 

I'll tell you what - I draft on Sunday in my most competitive league outside the WCOFF. I'll come back and post where Kennison went. If it's the 4th round I will eat all the crow in the world, and if it's ahead of Andre Johnson I will immediately quit playing fantasy football forever as that will be proof positive that I don't have a single clue about valuation of players.

 

I won't hold my breath on either.

 

Again. It doesn't matter how much it raises his value, it does. I'd rather have Andre Johnson, but would never argue that it is not possible for Kennison to come close to his numbers when he has come close and/or surpassed him on multiple occasions. And lets not go back and look at Kennison's whole career. Everyone knows that he did not come into his own until his time in KC.

 

 

| 2003 hou | 16 | 66 976 14.8 4 |

| 2004 hou | 16 | 79 1142 14.5 6 |

| 2005 hou | 13 | 63 688 10.9 2 |

| 2006 hou | 16 | 103 1147 11.1 5 |

 

 

 

 

2002 kan | 16 | 53 906 17.1 2 |

| 2003 kan | 16 | 56 853 15.2 5 |

| 2004 kan | 14 | 62 1086 17.5 8 |

| 2005 kan | 16 | 68 1102 16.2 5 |

| 2006 kan | 16 | 53 860 16.2 5

 

 

Are these numbers really so far apart?

 

 

Once again, perhaps the guy decided a month later he really wanted Caddy and hated Jacobs (whethere you think that's relaistic or not) and the other guy made him "pay". The guy who wanted Caddy said, I don't see a huge difference in the WRs the last couple of years, so why not, I'll do it.

 

NOT COLLUSION.

[Dr. Octopus 0]

But once again, and again, and again, draft round does not matter. Some players prefer to target wide receivers earlier than other players. I am one of those who waits until the late rounds because I believe that after the top 3 or so receivers most of the rest are the same. For example, based off of the last 4 years averages here is what you have.

 

Kennison 975.25 yards per season 5.75 touchdowns

 

Johnson 988.25 yards per season 4.25 touchdowns.

 

Despite these FACTUAL averages Andre Johnson consistently went several rounds higher to a player who believed in the hype. The player who waited 5 or 6 rounds to get Kennison might have believed they were rated equal and thus received a better value for kennison for the same, if not slightly better, production.

 

I personally have Kennison and Johnson rated in the same tier. Nothing has been done to prove that they don't belong in the same tier. I can't help it if some Johnson fan fell for the hype and picked him 8 rounds higher than his production shows he should be picked.

 

Winner.

[Jimmy 0]

Things have not changed enough to make this trade even close to something that could be considered even.

 

Again, that's YOUR opinion. Why does he have to agree with your projections and what you think is fair?

[Sho Nuff 720]

But once again, and again, and again, draft round does not matter. Some players prefer to target wide receivers earlier than other players. I am one of those who waits until the late rounds because I believe that after the top 3 or so receivers most of the rest are the same. For example, based off of the last 4 years averages here is what you have.

 

Kennison 975.25 yards per season 5.75 touchdowns

 

Johnson 988.25 yards per season 4.25 touchdowns.

 

Despite these FACTUAL averages Andre Johnson consistently went several rounds higher to a player who believed in the hype. The player who waited 5 or 6 rounds to get Kennison might have believed they were rated equal and thus received a better value for kennison for the same, if not slightly better, production.

 

I personally have Kennison and Johnson rated in the same tier. Nothing has been done to prove that they don't belong in the same tier. I can't help it if some Johnson fan fell for the hype and picked him 8 rounds higher than his production shows he should be picked.

 

Because you are taking averages and not trends (seriously...are you really trying to justify Eddie focking Kennison as being close to Andre Johnson right now?)

 

Nothing has been done to prove that they don't belong in the same tier?

Other than one guy's career being on the rise and the other will be on the waiver wire by week 10.

[Sho Nuff 720]

Again, that's YOUR opinion. Why does he have to agree with your projections and what you think is fair?

 

Ummm...first of all...they are not just my projections...they are a consensus of nearly every projection on the freakin planet.

2nd...obviously the guy who drafted Johnson had him projected much higher than Kennison. So no...its not just me.

 

[lambert58 71]

Things have not changed enough to make this trade even close to something that could be considered even.

 

 

Trades do not have to be even.... HTH!!

 

 

What I perceive as a good deal for me might not be considered a good deal for someone else.

 

Take Willie Parker and Caddy last year. Caddy was coming off of a very good rookie season. He was a 1st round pick by the bucs. FWP was not a sure fire every down back going into last season. He was an undrafted free agent picked up by the Steelers.

 

If the draft was held several weeks before the beginning of the season like the one we are discussing Caddy would have went significantly higher than FWP based off of production. (of course a Steelers homer will pick FWP earlier than another guy). If I were to make a trade for FWP by giving up Caddy the trade would have seemed not fair. FWP was supposed to split carries with Davenport. Caddy was a rising stud.

 

If that trade would not have been allowed I would have been p1ssed at the end of the season.

[jeffkomlo 19]

Things have not changed enough to make this trade even close to something that could be considered even.

 

Thanks my feelings exactly.

 

Owners have not responded, still waiting for their email

 

ADPs Jacobs 3.7 (12 teamer)

Caddy 4.1

 

An. Johnson 4.6

Kennison 13.5

 

there's the difference the WRs

[Dr. Octopus 0]

Because you are taking averages and not trends (seriously...are you really trying to justify Eddie focking Kennison as being close to Andre Johnson right now?)

 

Nothing has been done to prove that they don't belong in the same tier?

Other than one guy's career being on the rise and the other will be on the waiver wire by week 10.

 

What a "one year trend"? Look at 2005. Kennison had a far superior season. I think looking at four year averages is a "trend", not a knee jerk reaction based on last season.

 

Once again I like AJ better, but people talk in such absolutes and project their values onto others. Like I said I love Eli this season No "experts" do. Know what I don't care, I trust myself.

[killersquids 3]

The fact is we still don't know all the facts. Having learned the draft was 30 days ago changes things a little. Players values have changed since then....you cannot argue against this. Does this make the trade okay? It's still on the shady side. Without hearing from the jacobs/johnson owner, I cannot make an informed decision. Also, the history of the owners involved is an important fact we do not know....is this a newbie? how well does the league know the owners involved, etc.

 

I think the real argument here (which happens every year) is the competitive balance of the league. Specifically a newbie who doesn't know what they are doing makes a lopsided trade (not collusion). I'm not saying a bad trade but a lopsided trade. An example....terell owens for ashley lelie straight up. By allowing this trade, you are disrupting the competitive balance of the league. I would not allow this trade in my league, but many others would. Take your lumps as a rookie??? I disagree, you will take your lumps during the draft! There is no reason to allow this kind of trade through.

[lambert58 71]

Because you are taking averages and not trends (seriously...are you really trying to justify Eddie focking Kennison as being close to Andre Johnson right now?)

 

Nothing has been done to prove that they don't belong in the same tier?

Other than one guy's career being on the rise and the other will be on the waiver wire by week 10.

 

 

What has been done to prove they are on different tiers? Your opinion is one guys career is on the rise while the other guy will be on the waiver wire.. You can not possibly prove that. That is only your opinion and YES I have them ranked on the same tier. I had them ranked on the same tier last year and the year before that, and the year before that and the stats bore out the rankings..

 

 

The same argument could have been made for Joey Galloway several years ago when he first went to the Bucs. His career was over and he was in no way better than that up and coming Stud-to-be Ashlye Leilei...

 

Perception does not make reality.

 

And once again Tatum Bell was a preseason consensous top 5 back 2 years ago. Did that make everyone right? Maybe 1, just 1 player thought Bell was overhyped. He would have been the person to listen to instead of the group.

[kwhiz73 0]

Because you are taking averages and not trends (seriously...are you really trying to justify Eddie focking Kennison as being close to Andre Johnson right now?)

 

Nothing has been done to prove that they don't belong in the same tier?

Other than one guy's career being on the rise and the other will be on the waiver wire by week 10.

 

 

All that's being said is this information can be used to justify a trade. If you were a commissioner, and after asking a player to justify a trade you were potentially going to veto, he supplied you with this statistical argument--how could you possible veto it?

[Guest _my_2_cents_]

Once again I like AJ better, but people talk in such absolutes and project their values onto others. Like I said I love Eli this season No "experts" do. Know what I don't care, I trust myself.

 

Except you continue to disregard that the Jacobs/AJ owner himself valued Caddy (at least) 2 rounds lower and valued Kennison (at least) 12 rounds lower. The measure of proof is his passing up those players for that many rounds.

 

 

Hey, we can go round and round all day on this one - I wanted to thank everyone who expressed themselves without resorting to insults. This has been one of the more interesting debates in the post-Latin-Pimp meltdown era, and I appreciate the efforts that people go to in order to get their points across. My mind isn't changed on the matter but I absolutete see where some of you are coming from and respect you for both sticking to your guns and for presenting angles I may not have otherwise considered. I may not agree, but I do enjoy a good debate, so thanks.

[killersquids 3]

But once again, and again, and again, draft round does not matter. Some players prefer to target wide receivers earlier than other players. I am one of those who waits until the late rounds because I believe that after the top 3 or so receivers most of the rest are the same. For example, based off of the last 4 years averages here is what you have.

 

Kennison 975.25 yards per season 5.75 touchdowns

 

Johnson 988.25 yards per season 4.25 touchdowns.

 

Despite these FACTUAL averages Andre Johnson consistently went several rounds higher to a player who believed in the hype. The player who waited 5 or 6 rounds to get Kennison might have believed they were rated equal and thus received a better value for kennison for the same, if not slightly better, production.

 

I personally have Kennison and Johnson rated in the same tier. Nothing has been done to prove that they don't belong in the same tier. I can't help it if some Johnson fan fell for the hype and picked him 8 rounds higher than his production shows he should be picked.

 

 

This isn't a fair comparison. We all know it takes a few years for most rookie wide receivers to establish themselves. To compare the first four years of a career to the four years of an established wide receiver is apples to oranges. The fact is andre johnson is only in his 5th year. In only his fourth year in the league, he had over 100 catches.

[Sho Nuff 720]

What a "one year trend"? Look at 2005. Kennison had a far superior season. I think looking at four year averages is a "trend", not a knee jerk reaction based on last season.

 

Once again I like AJ better, but people talk in such absolutes and project their values onto others. Like I said I love Eli this season No "experts" do. Know what I don't care, I trust myself.

 

Kennison's best year is still not even up to Johnson's averages as far as receptions.

And no...looking at just an average is not looking at a trend.

 

The trend is one is a young player entering his 5th year as a WR in this league.

THe other is of an older player who has not been anything worth starting on an FF roster in quite some time.

[Sho Nuff 720]

All that's being said is this information can be used to justify a trade. If you were a commissioner, and after asking a player to justify a trade you were potentially going to veto, he supplied you with this statistical argument--how could you possible veto it?

 

Id try to find a new owner if the guy presented 4 year averages in trying to tell me that Kennison and AJ are on the same tier or nearly equal. Because I don't want complete idiots in my league.

[rdrs4life 0]

either that or it was in response to 3 separate posts.

 

I could easily say, "damn, a useless post with only a snipe and no content - you must not have the ability to form an opinion then."

 

But I'd like to think I'm above that.

 

 

You'd like to think so, but you'd be wrong.

[Dr. Octopus 0]

Except you continue to disregard that the Jacobs/AJ owner himself valued Caddy (at least) 2 rounds lower and valued Kennison (at least) 12 rounds lower. The measure of proof is his passing up those players for that many rounds.

 

 

No I don't. I've said things have changed that may have swayed opinions on values since the draft.

[Guest _my_2_cents_]

You'd like to think so, but you'd be wrong.

 

I was being sarcastic. Sorry it went over your head. I still love you.

[Dr. Octopus 0]

Kennison's best year is still not even up to Johnson's averages as far as receptions.

And no...looking at just an average is not looking at a trend.

 

The trend is one is a young player entering his 5th year as a WR in this league.

THe other is of an older player who has not been anything worth starting on an FF roster in quite some time.

 

You're either really stubborn or play in a 3 man league if Kennison hasn't been "worth starting for quite some time":

 

2002 kan | 16 | 53 906 17.1 2 |

| 2003 kan | 16 | 56 853 15.2 5 |

| 2004 kan | 14 | 62 1086 17.5 8 |

| 2005 kan | 16 | 68 1102 16.2 5 |

| 2006 kan | 16 | 53 860 16.2 5

 

He actually helped a team win the championship down the stretch a few years back with his late season surge.

 

Once again, yes AJ is more valuable this year in my opinion, but you're too blinded by your side of the argument to see that the difference isn't as wide as you think.

[rdrs4life 0]

I was being sarcastic. Sorry it went over your head. I still love you.

 

 

no way, fo reals?!?!

[lambert58 71]

Id try to find a new owner if the guy presented 4 year averages in trying to tell me that Kennison and AJ are on the same tier or nearly equal. Because I don't want complete idiots in my league.

 

 

What a pompus ass..

 

 

How should people present information to rate players? Should everything be judged on your high and might projections?

 

You want to go back through hisorical facts? Herman Moore a 5th year receiver in 1995 caught 123 balls for 14 touchdowns. A hell of a lot better season that Andre Johnson had in his 5th year. The remainder of his career Moore averaged 58 receptions and 3.575 touchdowns per year.. Of course that is not relevent because you say so.

 

Larry Centers, a full-back, once caught 106 passes in a season.. I suppose you would place him right at the top of the running backs because he caught a lot of passes.

 

Historically the Texans have had a woeful offense with an even worse offensive line. They are usually at or near the bottom in touchdowns scored. What can you tell me that PROVES they have improved? Are you going to give me Matt Schaub and his 4 career starts? Can you say Scott Mitchell? Are you going to give me Ahman Green? So an over the hill injury riddled Green has enough left in his tank to be productive but Eddie Kennison doesn't...hmmm.

 

 

How about it there skippy. What relevent information can you provide besides "I believe it so it must be true"?

[DankNuggs 305]

Nice to see My2cents get ripped to shreds for his tunnelvision

 

 

Everything i said was proven correct.

 

 

I will now bask in the glory

 

[DankNuggs 305]

Id try to find a new owner if the guy presented 4 year averages in trying to tell me that Kennison and AJ are on the same tier or nearly equal. Because I don't want complete idiots in my league.

That is completely moot...

 

 

That presumes it is agreed that both owners feel Caddy/Jacobs is a wash....

 

 

Don't you know what happens when you ASSUME shonuff? You make an @ss out of yourself and my2cents.

[Sho Nuff 720]

What a pompus ass..

How should people present information to rate players? Should everything be judged on your high and might projections?

 

You want to go back through hisorical facts? Herman Moore a 5th year receiver in 1995 caught 123 balls for 14 touchdowns. A hell of a lot better season that Andre Johnson had in his 5th year. The remainder of his career Moore averaged 58 receptions and 3.575 touchdowns per year.. Of course that is not relevent because you say so.

 

Larry Centers, a full-back, once caught 106 passes in a season.. I suppose you would place him right at the top of the running backs because he caught a lot of passes.

 

Historically the Texans have had a woeful offense with an even worse offensive line. They are usually at or near the bottom in touchdowns scored. What can you tell me that PROVES they have improved? Are you going to give me Matt Schaub and his 4 career starts? Can you say Scott Mitchell? Are you going to give me Ahman Green? So an over the hill injury riddled Green has enough left in his tank to be productive but Eddie Kennison doesn't...hmmm.

How about it there skippy. What relevent information can you provide besides "I believe it so it must be true"?

 

Pompous because I prefer my league to be competitive rather than filled with morons who would make that trade or try to justify it?

 

Again...you keep calling them "my" projections. How about every projection in the known FF world that has AJ way ahead of Kennison?

Herman Moore? Really?

Ummm...the next 2 years after that Herman put up 106 receptions...then 104...then 82 (in 15 games). After that he was injurred and did not play full seasons and fizzled out. Terrible comparison. Unless you want to say that AJ is going to back it up with a 106 reception 1300 yard and 9 TD year. Never thought someone would own themselves so badly as you just did.

 

You are going to compare to a FB now? Seriously...quit playing FF today if this is your logic.

And you have the balls to question someone else bringing up relevant information? hah!!!

[lambert58 71]

This isn't a fair comparison. We all know it takes a few years for most rookie wide receivers to establish themselves. To compare the first four years of a career to the four years of an established wide receiver is apples to oranges. The fact is andre johnson is only in his 5th year. In only his fourth year in the league, he had over 100 catches.

 

 

Good point but keep in mind that it did not take Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Torry Holt, Chad Johnson, etc.. 5 years to establish themselves. Sometimes people wait forever for players to establish themselves. Can you say Ashley Leilei, Any Atlanta 1st round pick, Ronald Curry, Koran Robinson, Troy Williamson, etc... All 1st round picks that never took that final step to greatness.

[Sho Nuff 720]

That is completely moot...

That presumes it is agreed that both owners feel Caddy/Jacobs is a wash....

Don't you know what happens when you ASSUME shonuff? You make an @ss out of yourself and my2cents.

 

Actually I assume both owners felt that Jacobs > Caddy based on where they were drafted.

[Guest _my_2_cents_]

Nice to see My2cents get ripped to shreds for his tunnelvision

I did? where? and it was "tunnelvision"? Wow - nice "drive by" - yet again you come in, snipe, declare some sort of victory and say nothing at all. have you ever contributed anything even remotely interesting to these forums or do you just insult people and declare yourself to be the winner in everything? Why even post here? Some of us are enjoying this as a philisophical debate and you're just here to be an insulting jerk. This is only a suggestion but perhaps you should just take it somewhere else - the community would be better off.

 

Everything i said was proven correct.

I will now bask in the glory

 

Nothing's been proven. People have opinions. Some of those opinions vary. Sorry your inferiority complex made you feel so awful that you had to come back in and "call me out" for no apparent reason, but you're really making an ass out of yourself.

[Guest _my_2_cents_]

Actually I assume both owners felt that Jacobs > Caddy based on where they were drafted.

 

Don't bother Sho - I've made that exact point a dozen times.

 

the response will be that everytyhing's changed - the Jacobs owner might be panicked about the possibility of a RBBC and upon learning that Caddy lost Alstott as a GL vulture Caddy is going to blow up, despite averaging less than 1 YPC in the preseason.

 

Oh, but it's just preseason so that doesn't matter unless it suits their argument that something may have happened to improve the perceived value of the player. See how that works? If it helps the value (e.g. suits the argument) then the preseason matters, but if it hurts the players value (e.g. works against them as with the Caddy/Jacobs debate) then preseason doesn't matter.

 

There's a lot of spin going on here, but the bottom line to me is that the Jacobs/AJ owner had ample opportunity to draft both Caddy & Kennison as a RB3 anfd a WR5 ot 6 and chose not to do so on draft day. Yes, things happen to boost a player's value, but unless AJ tore his achillies and Kennison discovered that he was actually Jesus Christ I cannot fathom how a 15th round pick could command a 4th round pick - especially when one's 34 and the other is 26. Something very wrong with that.

 

And even beyond the numbers, i think it's totally valid to look at this in terms of a pre-draft trade of picks. Would anyone in their right mind consider approving a 3/4 for a 6/15 trade. The obvious answer is no, yet people say it all changes when it's a player not a draft pick. The value doesn't change at all.

 

again - not saying anyone's right or wrong and we are all of us entitled to believe what we like here. I'm not about to tell you what's right or wrong for you or your league, but this would never fly in mine. And it doesn't make me a jerk of a power tripper - I guarantee that 100 times out of 100 my leaguemates would support this decision. Fortunately, it will never happen in my league because everyone's smarter than this.

[steelers2101 7]

So, do you also create the pre-draft rankings for each of the owners and hand them out at the draft?

 

You are the one who decides which WR is better than another for everyone in the league?

 

 

If everyone thought exactly the same, it would defeat the purpose of competition, and fantasy football in general. We each think we will win because we think our knowledge and strategy is better than the next guy. If you want to do the thinking for other managers and disrespect their opinions, then you shouldn't play fantasy football. You should just play by yourself, do a draft, manage all the teams, and see which one wins in the end.

 

Team A (who is trading away Jacobs) has a right to believe that Caddy will end up much better than Jacobs, and that he'll be so much better that he is willing to deal Andre Johnson for Eddie Kennison.

 

Now, if Team A drafted Jacobs over Cadillac, I'd be surprised that he now thinks Caddy will be better, and would wonder if there is collusion. Now, if you have an incompetent manager/fan, who trades their first round pick for a crappy TE or D or Kicker or #2 WR on his team, then you veto, lock him from doing deals and don't invite him back next year. Other than that and collusion, you cannot veto.

[Sho Nuff 720]

 

If everyone thought exactly the same, it would defeat the purpose of competition, and fantasy football in general. We each think we will win because we think our knowledge and strategy is better than the next guy. If you want to do the thinking for other managers and disrespect their opinions, then you shouldn't play fantasy football. You should just play by yourself, do a draft, manage all the teams, and see which one wins in the end.

 

Team A (who is trading away Jacobs) has a right to believe that Caddy will end up much better than Jacobs, and that he'll be so much better that he is willing to deal Andre Johnson for Eddie Kennison.

 

Now, if Team A drafted Jacobs over Cadillac, I'd be surprised that he now thinks Caddy will be better, and would wonder if there is collusion. Now, if you have an incompetent manager/fan, who trades their first round pick for a crappy TE or D or Kicker or #2 WR on his team, then you veto, lock him from doing deals and don't invite him back next year. Other than that and collusion, you cannot veto.

 

This is kind of the point of this thread.

Team A drafted Jacobs before Caddy and Johnson long before Kennison.

[Guest _my_2_cents_]

 

If everyone thought exactly the same, it would defeat the purpose of competition, and fantasy football in general. We each think we will win because we think our knowledge and strategy is better than the next guy. If you want to do the thinking for other managers and disrespect their opinions, then you shouldn't play fantasy football. You should just play by yourself, do a draft, manage all the teams, and see which one wins in the end.

 

While I agree philisophically (because after all, who wouldn't?) this is already a moot point because the owners involved in the deal drafted according to their own individual rankings.

 

And the absolute fact is that the Jacobs/AJ owner chose not to draft either Caddy or Kennison in the 3rd and 4th rounds (where he's now dealing his 3/4 picks for them), nor did they choose to draft either for 2 more rounds in Caddy's case or for 12 more rounds in Kennison's case. I'd call that ample opportunity.

 

So regardless of where I or anyone values these players, the jacobs/AJ owner DID NOT VALUE THEM that highly.

 

So this whole argument is 100% bogus. it's a slippery slope - "why even play at all if you're just going to project your rankings onto the league" - sorry, completely bogus. They were assigned thier value at the time they were drafted, or in Caddy/Kennison's case, NOT drafted by the Jacobs/AJ owner who could have had all 4 of these players if he wanted them instead of dealing his 3rd and 4th picks for players he then passed over the rest of the draft. Not by 1 round, by 2 and 12 rounds respectively.

 

Now, if Team A drafted Jacobs over Cadillac, I'd be surprised that he now thinks Caddy will be better, and would wonder if there is collusion. Now, if you have an incompetent manager/fan, who trades their first round pick for a crappy TE or D or Kicker or #2 WR on his team, then you veto, lock him from doing deals and don't invite him back next year. Other than that and collusion, you cannot veto.

Uh, that is exactly what happened.

[Pimptaddy 0]

I hope this is a level.

Otherwise you deserve a soupy travis as well as anyone dumb enough to let you run the league.

 

 

It is my fault someone drafts poorly? If they do not draft a good team it is their fault and I want to keep the weaker teams weak. It is called strategy!

[darwin 0]

Why do folks keep saying you need to let a moron be a moron?

This veto is about collusion, not stupidity. The guys comeback after being confronted was some BS about 4 year averages?! Clearly the guy knows better than to make this trade if he will go out and find a 4 year average. A moron would of said "what? it sounded good at the time", or "I was drunk".

 

Of course, he's not going to admit collusion, NO ONE admits collusion. That's why a commish from time to time has to put the kibosh on an obviously one sided trade. If this trade is not vetoed, it will be followed by another, and another, probably all leaning to the advantage of one particular team.

 

Some here prefer leagues where you can slip a guy a $20 bill and get a sweet deal on a stud RB. Fair enough. Some here don't like to be in those kinds of leagues. I guess that's the difference between a cutthroat league and a friendly long time buddy league. We'll all have to agree to disagree. There's is NO universal league rules in fantasy football.