Watch 20/20 right now on ABC

[make me mona 0]

Hospitals charge based on overall operating costs. Just because it REALLY only costs them 200 bucks to set a broken bone, they charge you more to make up for tons of other factors such as lawsuits, insurance, and paying for operations and services provided to the indigent, illegals, and other operating costs they are forced to absorb.

 

Start lowering the hospitals overall costs and you'll see price drops.

 

It's called doing business, all businesses charge those upcosts. Now, let's forget all of those and stick with what we are talking about, insurance companies and healthcare costs. Here's the deal. Each of your insurance companies have timelines for specific injuries, ie you had a baby, you should be good to go in 2 days, or 24 hours now, f0ckers. They have a specific amount they will pay for that injury, period. In my case, I worked in brain injury. Let's say we have a patient that has a frontal lobe injury, they are on a specific track that says they should be recovered in 30 days, should be walking, talking, etc. Okay, that 30 days passes and guess what, they are walking and talking. However, they can't tell you WHERE they are walking, and their speech makes NO sense to anyone. They can't remember their own name, where they are, etc. They obviously can't go home, how would they survive? But because they have reached certain milestones along the track, they are out of insurance. They will no longer cover the care. What happens to this person? They get kicked out and unless their family has the TIME and FORTITUDE to fight the system, the insurance company wins. And who loses? All of us, because this person clearly needs to be under hospital care, but the family can't pay it. We do. Now that's an extreme case, one I saw all too often. But make no mistake, your insurance company pays your doctor less than they should because it's how they make money. Our system is 2 tier when it should be one. The doctors have to make a profit, and the insurance companies have to make a profit. If you don't see that it means you are paying more than you should, well, hey, I can't give you more brain cells than God left you with.

[BLS 314]

Wow... where did you get that from? Why don't you go ask your doctor if the insurance company pays "a little below the national average" for a procedure.

 

Toro, you're full of sh!t. In your example, I guarantee that if the going rate were $180 and you didn't have insurance, you would pay $180. With insurance, you would pay your co-pay of $20 and the insurance company would pay something bizarre like... $59.

 

I could pull out my son's last hospital bills. Something like... $11,000. Without insurance, I would be billed... $11,000. With insurance, I paid $600 in co-pays and non-covered stuff, and the insurance company paid something in the neighborhood of $6,000 - $7,000.

 

 

So what you're saying is insurance companies are good because they get everyone a better deal on the cost of healthcare???

 

It's a nice theory, and maybe it's true, but you don't have much to back it up.

[BLS 314]

It's called doing business, all businesses charge those upcosts. Now, let's forget all of those and stick with what we are talking about, insurance companies and healthcare costs. Here's the deal. Each of your insurance companies have timelines for specific injuries, ie you had a baby, you should be good to go in 2 days, or 24 hours now, f0ckers. They have a specific amount they will pay for that injury, period. In my case, I worked in brain injury. Let's say we have a patient that has a frontal lobe injury, they are on a specific track that says they should be recovered in 30 days, should be walking, talking, etc. Okay, that 30 days passes and guess what, they are walking and talking. However, they can't tell you WHERE they are walking, and their speech makes NO sense to anyone. They can't remember their own name, where they are, etc. They obviously can't go home, how would they survive? But because they have reached certain milestones along the track, they are out of insurance. They will no longer cover the care. What happens to this person? They get kicked out and unless their family has the TIME and FORTITUDE to fight the system, the insurance company wins. And who loses? All of us, because this person clearly needs to be under hospital care, but the family can't pay it. We do. Now that's an extreme case, one I saw all too often. But make no mistake, your insurance company pays your doctor less than they should because it's how they make money. Our system is 2 tier when it should be one. The doctors have to make a profit, and the insurance companies have to make a profit. If you don't see that it means you are paying more than you should, well, hey, I can't give you more brain cells than God left you with.

 

Ok...so how exactly does having government pay for this help in any way?

Where do you think that money is going to come from?

[make me mona 0]

You beat me to it Toro.

 

Mona/Meph, you guys both have very flawed concepts of demand/supply and it's effects on pricing.

 

The realization is that because some people see insurance as 'free' they go for every little thing.

They don't care about the cost because it's not coming out of their pockets.

Therefore the hospitals and clinics GOUGE the insurance companies. Tell me what your last dr. visit cost (overall...not what was covered just by insurance).

The fact is, those with health insurance get the bill, look for what they owe, and write the rest off and go 'whoo hoo!'.

 

I hate to tell you but if your "theory" was right, insurance companies wouldn't be making any money, because all the freeloaders would be using up the system For some reason though, the insurance companies are still making buttloads of money. Hmmmmm, wonder why.

[Toro 1]

It's called doing business, all businesses charge those upcosts. Now, let's forget all of those and stick with what we are talking about, insurance companies and healthcare costs. Here's the deal. Each of your insurance companies have timelines for specific injuries, ie you had a baby, you should be good to go in 2 days, or 24 hours now, f0ckers. They have a specific amount they will pay for that injury, period. In my case, I worked in brain injury. Let's say we have a patient that has a frontal lobe injury, they are on a specific track that says they should be recovered in 30 days, should be walking, talking, etc. Okay, that 30 days passes and guess what, they are walking and talking. However, they can't tell you WHERE they are walking, and their speech makes NO sense to anyone. They can't remember their own name, where they are, etc. They obviously can't go home, how would they survive? But because they have reached certain milestones along the track, they are out of insurance. They will no longer cover the care. What happens to this person? They get kicked out and unless their family has the TIME and FORTITUDE to fight the system, the insurance company wins. And who loses? All of us, because this person clearly needs to be under hospital care, but the family can't pay it. We do. Now that's an extreme case, one I saw all too often. But make no mistake, your insurance company pays your doctor less than they should because it's how they make money. Our system is 2 tier when it should be one. The doctors have to make a profit, and the insurance companies have to make a profit. If you don't see that it means you are paying more than you should, well, hey, I can't give you more brain cells than God left you with.

 

Use a paragraph, for Christ sake.

 

You are talking about something that should be covered by health insurance. Just because some insurance company refuses to pay doesn't mean the system is broken. It means the insurance company should pay.

 

Like I said, I have never been to a doctor that takes less than what he charges for anything. I don't know if it doesn't work like that everywhere, I am not an expert and I didn't mean to get into a discussion with someone about this particular aspect. You obviously have more experience in dealing with insurance companies than I have. I can only tell you of my experiences and that comparing the LCD market to health care in economic terms is not intellectually honest.

 

Also, remember. If you don't like the way insurance treats you, don't buy any.

[Toro 1]

I hate to tell you but if your "theory" was right, insurance companies wouldn't be making any money, because all the freeloaders would be using up the system For some reason though, the insurance companies are still making buttloads of money. Hmmmmm, wonder why.

 

Let's make this easy.

 

Patient 1: Insurance. Has Broken Arm.

Patient 2: No Insurance and no money, illegal and doesn't care. Has Broken Arm.

 

Broken Arm typically would cost 200 to fix.

 

Patient 2 doesn't pay sh*t. Hospital costs for both patients: 400 bucks. Guess what they are going to charge patient 1? That's right. 400 bucks.

 

Take Patient 3: blue collar, family of 3. Patient 3 has crappy insurance and insurance only pays 100. Patient 3 owes 300 bucks. If the hospital didn't have to cover for patient 2, he would only owe 100. Instead, he spend 6 years paying off the balance because he can't afford to file for bankruptcy.

 

Take this instance. Multiply times millions.

 

 

ETA: My brother's baby was 3 months preme. She was in level 3 NICU for 3 weeks, level 2 for 3 more and level 1 for another. During that time, we saw family after family of people who obviously were illegals. In level 3 NICU for weeks. No insurance. You want to cry to someone about how much it costs, go cry to them.

[BLS 314]

Let's make this easy.

 

Patient 1: Insurance. Has Broken Arm.

Patient 2: No Insurance and no money, illegal and doesn't care. Has Broken Arm.

 

Broken Arm typically would cost 200 to fix.

 

Patient 2 doesn't pay sh*t. Hospital costs for both patients: 400 bucks. Guess what they are going to charge patient 1? That's right. 400 bucks.

 

Take Patient 3: blue collar, family of 3. Patient 3 has crappy insurance and insurance only pays 100. Patient 3 owes 300 bucks. If the hospital didn't have to cover for patient 2, he would only owe 100. Instead, he spend 6 years paying off the balance because he can't afford to file for bankruptcy.

 

Take this instance. Multiply times millions.

 

Do you think you've "dumbed it down" enough for her, or will she never "get it"?

 

What I can't understand...for the LIFE of me, is why anyone would want federal ANYTHING. Money isn't free...someone has to pay for it.

That means more taxes.

 

The REAL problem in all of this is LOBBYISTS and POLITICIANS who fail to represent their constituents.

[Mephisto 15]

Point 1 - I have an excellent understanding of supply and demand and the drivers which affect pricing.

 

Point 2 - I don't know under what rock you've been living if you believe that insurance companies pay the full balance of any bill, hospital, doctors, specialists after you pay your co-pay.

[jerryskids 6,797]

If my insurance company only pays my doctor, say... $30 for my doctor visit... how much do you think I would have to pay the doctor for my visit if I didn't have insurance?

Sorry, but that is non-responsive.

 

Also, I apologize that I won't have much time online tonight to debate, but let me rephrase anyway: do you honestly believe that the business plan of the medical industry is to gouge those without insurance, who one would reasonably presume is in a much lesser position to pay such costs?

[make me mona 0]

I like how you add the "illegals" in there, as if no US Citizens are affected Have a read: http://focus.hms.harvard.edu/2004/Jan23_2004/forum.html You have no idea how insurance works. You have no idea how a doctor sets his prices and how he is reimbursed for these expenses. You have no idea what it is like to choose not to go to the doctor because you have no insurance. Cancel your policy for a year and then tell me how you deal with illnesses that crop up. Also make sure you can't use your savings when something does appear, like the US Citizens that live paycheck to paycheck. And no, not all of them have low paying jobs, a lot of them are small business owners who simply can't afford the large payments while being raped on taxes by our big business friendly government. It's easy to argue this stuff while you sit in your luxury condo with your $10 copays.

[Toro 1]

Do you think you've "dumbed it down" enough for her, or will she never "get it"?

 

What I can't understand...for the LIFE of me, is why anyone would want federal ANYTHING. Money isn't free...someone has to pay for it.

That means more taxes.

 

The REAL problem in all of this is LOBBYISTS and POLITICIANS who fail to represent their constituents.

 

If you add the federal gov't on top of this, add another 20% of cost.

 

I don't mind universal healthcare for children and the indigent (old, retarded, etc). If the US gov't wants to provide health, do it like they did in Mass. If you have your own insurance, then you are good. If not, you are required to purchase it (at a discount) from the state.

[Toro 1]

I like how you add the "illegals" in there, as if no US Citizens are affected Have a read: http://focus.hms.harvard.edu/2004/Jan23_2004/forum.html You have no idea how insurance works. You have no idea how a doctor sets his prices and how he is reimbursed for these expenses. You have no idea what it is like to choose not to go to the doctor because you have no insurance. Cancel your policy for a year and then tell me how you deal with illnesses that crop up. Also make sure you can't use your savings when something does appear, like the US Citizens that live paycheck to paycheck. And no, not all of them have low paying jobs, a lot of them are small business owners who simply can't afford the large payments while being raped on taxes by our big business friendly government. It's easy to argue this stuff while you sit in your luxury condo with your $10 copays.

 

So now it's my responsibility to pay for those who can't pay for themselves?

 

If you want to pay for them, write a check but get your focking hands out of my pockets. I'm trying to pay for my own focking family.

 

And you are right. It is focking easy for me to sit here and argue wit my "luxury condo" and $10 copays. You know why? Because I put myself here. No one handed my life to me. Maybe if you worked a little harder when you were younger, you could enjoy the benefits I receive.

[Mephisto 15]

So now it's my responsibility to pay for those who can't pay for themselves?

 

If you want to pay for them, write a check but get your focking hands out of my pockets. I'm trying to pay for my own focking family.

 

Whaddya think you're doing now, jackass?

 

Hey mona, do you think that BLS and Toro will ever "get it."

[Mephisto 15]

And that is why I am voting against democrats who want to just give it away.

 

So just because it's happening, that makes it right?

 

Maybe if you and Mona spent more time doing something other than posting on a message board, you might be able to afford better insurance.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how you freak and spazz and get so far off topic and bring sh!t into a discussion that isn't even part of it... it's complete focking entertainment, Toro. It also explains why everything thinks you're a complete focking retard, too!

 

[make me mona 0]

And that is why I am voting against democrats who want to just give it away.

 

So just because it's happening, that makes it right?

 

Maybe if you and Mona spent more time doing something other than posting on a message board, you might be able to afford better insurance.

 

LOL, yea, I've posted here 5 times in a year. Read up on DRG's, and you'll see my point, here I'll help you out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis-related_group Or maybe you'll play dumb still because it helps your republican ass feel better about the poor getting put where they belong.

[make me mona 0]

So now it's my responsibility to pay for those who can't pay for themselves?

 

If you want to pay for them, write a check but get your focking hands out of my pockets. I'm trying to pay for my own focking family.

 

And you are right. It is focking easy for me to sit here and argue wit my "luxury condo" and $10 copays. You know why? Because I put myself here. No one handed my life to me. Maybe if you worked a little harder when you were younger, you could enjoy the benefits I receive.

 

I worked harder than you sweetheart, I live in a luxury home. Some of us are able to think outside our own lives, God Bless you for not procreating.

[Mephisto 15]

I'm just going to sit back and watch mona school Toro on the Geek Board, yet again!

 

 

You go girl!!! Of course, it's not that hard to make Toro look like a complete jackass, but it's still fun to watch! I eagerly await Toro's next post of buffoonery!

[Toro 1]

I worked harder than you sweetheart, I live in a luxury home. Some of us are able to think outside our own lives, God Bless you for not procreating.

 

Good for you, lady. I am sure you worked really hard and that you and Meph are doing well.

 

I just find it ironic that you can make comments blasting others for not believing what you believe. You think everyone in the world should just hold hands, open their wallets and sing ######-bay-yah. That's not the way the world works, but you can continue to cry about what you believe is fair and not fair. People disagree with you. I disagree with you. Get over yourself thinking you are high and mighty because you think that everyone should get health care for free. It's not like it's your focking idea. You are just in a long line of people with great, touchy-feely, flowers-and-rainbows ideas that have no way to actually work in the real world.

 

So you and Meph can sit back and sniff each other's asses, crying about how unfair your lives are. To be honest, after having to pay for six years for medical payments and Meph scratching a check every month to pay for the ex-wife and kids that left his ass, I would be the same way - broken and bitter.

 

Good luck with your life and I will be procreating a lot - creating lots of little republicans to make sure your poor kids have an HMO as well.

[jerryskids 6,797]

Yet another strawman argument: "It has to be OUR way, or Canada's way."

 

Incidentally, you can bash Canada's system all you want, but I know first hand that their system can, literally, mean life or death for some people. I have a close family member who (luckily) was able to go back there for a heart operation, without which she would be dead by now, and which she was unable to get here in the states because it wasn't "cost effective" to keep her alive.

 

It's all "socialism" until you're faced with it. I pray you never are, sincerely.

 

Really now? Because I can ASSURE you that that is the fundamental flaw with conservative policies, ie, you can spend as much as you want, cut taxes as much as you want, and simply ignore the red ink.

 

Do you have health insurance? Ever tried to live without it? Ever been forced to choose between medicine and food?

 

I realize you may or may not be an "I-got-mine-so-fock-you-and-everyone-else" conservative, but do you realize just how much the current system COSTS those who actually have health insurance annually? When someone has to file Chapter 11 bk because they had to go into the hospital for two days, who do you suppose pays for that?

 

"They just write it off." --Cosmo Kramer

You were the poster who said Lincoln was a racist, right?

 

Anyway, thanks for not reading my post and picking a few topics for your response. If you had, you would have seen that I might support catastrophic insurance. Which would have helped your close family member.

 

Also, your close family member... you said "go back." Is she Canadian? If so, why should the USA subsidize her operation in any model?

 

I am the type of conservative who thinks that government is inherently inefficient; that less government is almost always better; that competition is almost always more efficient; and that people perform better when they have expectations on them.

[Snoopy1 0]

I am the type of conservative who thinks that government is inherently inefficient; that less government is almost always better; that competition is almost always more efficient; and that people perform better when they have expectations on them.

 

 

On a cost basis that's not the case though. Insurance companies spend 8--16% strictly on admininstration. Compare that to Medicare where overhead is 5.2% of the total cost. Goverment insurance is between 2 to 3 times more effiencient then private.

 

Link

 

For what it's worth, that's the most "conservative" link I found. Some estimates have private insurance adminstration running in the 20-25% range.

[RLLD 4,230]

Imagine how much school would cost if the government didn't provide it for free; also, imagine how much money teachers would make.

[Franknbeans 46]

NOTHING is free.

 

Let's start there.

this forum is free