Make a ruling on the Buckhalter TD for our league

[FBH ** 0]

 

This should close the deal. A 37 yard TD reception.

 

 

Chronic You misunderstood the box score, they listed it as a 37 yard recovery for a TD. But it did give credit for the TD to Buckhalter, and not a DST TD.

[mahoney 9]

FYI, for what it's worth (and to add to the confusion)....

While watching the Chargers/Bengals game on CBS, stat tracker that comes across the screen said: PHI DEF 0 sacks, 1 int, 2 TDs.

I say this because the person watching with me said "Damn, Philly Def scored 2 td's"...he was playing against them.

[First and Long 0]

FYI, for what it's worth (and to add to the confusion)....

While watching the Chargers/Bengals game on CBS, stat tracker that comes across the screen said: PHI DEF 0 sacks, 1 int, 2 TDs.

I say this because the person watching with me said "Damn, Philly Def scored 2 td's"...he was playing against them.

 

Never believe what any stat tracker tells you...

[Chronic Husker 85]

Actually it is stating it was a recovered fumble with 37 return yds for a TD

[Ras66not99 0]

How can it possibly be a defensive TD if no member of the defense or special teams is on the field? To me that is the answer to the question. It is a fumble recovery and run for a TD you count the yardage he gained as rushing yards and the TD is a rushing TD. This is very cut and dry to me, I cannot even see the logic that would make this a DST TD.

 

Here is a simplified answer: Is that fumble any different than a lateral? Is a lateral any different than a pitch play? So should every pitch play be scored as a DST TD?

 

This says it all right here

 

 

Also how can any "legit" Commissioner not see everything at some point??

 

I mean I'm insane and I watch pretty much every single play of every game every week along with highlights every week, and I know not everyone is like this, or makes the time, but plays of this magnitude are shown 500 times a week on the NFL Network, ESPN, football shows, etc.... How can people miss them like the original poster said might happen because he doesn't have time to go through every single game?

 

Heres my beef with the OG poster (because I run my league the same way) manually with my own custom website/rules for 10 + years..... Anyway if you're going to invest the time and effort to run your league this way, then you make time to see everything... otherwise leave it to another webiste to determine what they score it as... As for you scoring these plays DEFENSIVE TD's that's just the stupidest thing I've ever heard.... This is why IDP should be a part of all fantasy leagues... or just cut the team D/ST out of it completely. its garbage

[Casey71 0]

It's not listed in any of the front page stats on NFL. Buck has nothing? Just 20 yards rushing.

[cmh6476 767]

Actually it is stating it was a recovered fumble with 37 return yds for a TD

yep, doesnt have anything to do with being a reception.

 

FYI, for what it's worth (and to add to the confusion)....

While watching the Chargers/Bengals game on CBS, stat tracker that comes across the screen said: PHI DEF 0 sacks, 1 int, 2 TDs.

I say this because the person watching with me said "Damn, Philly Def scored 2 td's"...he was playing against them.

i'm using this in my argument as well

[third_and_one 0]

This is probably something that happens once every 5 years. I can see the logic on both sides. I would tend to agree with cmh here for the following reason: Once brown fumbles, it's a live ball. The offense is not playing offense and the defense is not playing defense at that point. It's an all out battle to recover the ball. The instant the ball is fumbled by brown, I think it would make alot of sense to say that both teams are now in special teams mode, trying to get the ball. Here, buckhalter just so happened to get it on the fly, but it doesn't change the fact that the ball was live for an instant. I say award special teams the TD. If you also award the individual for a special teams td (ala a punt return for a TD), then buckhalter also gets points.

[Chronic Husker 85]

yep, doesnt have anything to do with being a reception.

i'm using this in my argument as well

Do they call it a defensive TD at NFL.com right now?

 

Jim's getting bent over.

[Mephisto 15]

Add this to the list of why Sportsline sucks.

 

RTS gives Buckhalter a fumble recovery TD... not the Eagles Defense.

[sanders 0]

Reggie Brown should get credit for a 20 yard reception.

 

Buckhalter should get credit for a 37 yard run and a TD.

 

Score this the same way you would the hook and ladder play. (Where a WR catches the ball and intentionally pitches it to another player) Just because it happened by accident makes no difference. I actually think Reggie may have been trying to get it to Buckhalter but it got affected by the defensive player and worked anyway.

 

Possesion never changed hands. The 'live' ball is still Philly's until Washington gains possesion. If the ball was to go out of bounds the ball would still be Philly's.

[cmh6476 767]

This says it all right here

Also how can any "legit" Commissioner not see everything at some point??

 

I mean I'm insane and I watch pretty much every single play of every game every week along with highlights every week, and I know not everyone is like this, or makes the time, but plays of this magnitude are shown 500 times a week on the NFL Network, ESPN, football shows, etc.... How can people miss them like the original poster said might happen because he doesn't have time to go through every single game?

 

Heres my beef with the OG poster (because I run my league the same way) manually with my own custom website/rules for 10 + years..... Anyway if you're going to invest the time and effort to run your league this way, then you make time to see everything... otherwise leave it to another webiste to determine what they score it as... As for you scoring these plays DEFENSIVE TD's that's just the stupidest thing I've ever heard.... This is why IDP should be a part of all fantasy leagues... or just cut the team D/ST out of it completely. its garbage

 

 

the commissioner doesnt need to watch any of the games to score everything accurately. Not everyone has the ticket, and not everyone is going to see every game. It doesnt mean my commissioners in other leagues arent as good as you because they dont happen to catch every gane.

 

With that said, you should be able to go to NFL.com and deduct all your scoring. It's examples that aren't clear-cut like this is what makes something confusing.

[Chasers Dawg 9]

does anyone remember the Monday Night game about 4 years ago...Tampa Bay vs. Indy (i think)

Buc receiver caught the ball, fumbled it...Colts player picked it up, fumbled it...

Keenan McCardell recoverdd fumble and ran for touchdown.

How was that scored....

(I think same game with Peyton and Colts amazing comeback, into overtime and then victory).

 

 

 

After this game the nfl issued a statement clarifying the Off/Def questions after a change of possesion. The Off does not become the Def and vice versa, however the rules will be applied as if they are. Guy in 1 of my leagues tried to get a Tampa D TD on that play. It was ruled an Off FR TD. Players Off/Def designation at the time of the snap remains whatever happens during the course of a play. At the time we had no scoring for Off FR TD so no points were awarded in our league. Also the week before and week after had the same issues. I think this was the first year they started scoring them as Misc stats so a lot of scoring systems had not adapted to pick them stats up

 

 

 

Also Mike Herrera last week on NFL Net was going on and on about "Bang Bang" plays will be called incomplete after (who?) caught a ball, took 2 steps and then fumbled (and that was a gamechanging play, not a fantasy changing play). If that ball had hit the ground instead of Bucky grabbing it it would have been an incomplete pass

[cmh6476 767]

Do they call it a defensive TD at NFL.com right now?

 

Jim's getting bent over.

yes actually if you looked at the boxscore it would appear the Eagles had 2 defensive TDs on the day.

 

Reggie Brown should get credit for a 20 yard reception.

 

Buckhalter should get credit for a 37 yard run and a TD.

 

Score this the same way you would the hook and ladder play. (Where a WR catches the ball and intentionally pitches it to another player) Just because it happened by accident makes no difference. I actually think Reggie may have been trying to get it to Buckhalter but it got affected by the defensive player and worked anyway.

the difference is the ball went forward before it went backwards and therefore cannot be a lateral and thus not the equivalent of a hook and ladder play

[FBH ** 0]

Add this to the list of why Sportsline sucks.

 

RTS gives Buckhalter a fumble recovery TD... not the Eagles Defense.

 

 

Mephisto,

 

So does my league on sportsline. But keep in mind that I am in no way supporting or endorsing their crappy website.

[cmh6476 767]

Mephisto,

 

So does my league on sportsline. But keep in mind that I am in no way supporting or endorsing their crappy website.

someone has buckhalter on their bench in our league, and he was awarded 2 points for 20 rushing yards. He gets nada for the TD, nor did the Eagles D up to this point.

[Ras66not99 0]

the commissioner doesnt need to watch any of the games to score everything accurately. Not everyone has the ticket, and not everyone is going to see every game. It doesnt mean my commissioners in other leagues arent as good as you because they dont happen to catch every gane.

 

With that said, you should be able to go to NFL.com and deduct all your scoring. It's examples that aren't clear-cut like this is what makes something confusing.

 

It's YOUR JOB to make your rules clear so problems like this do not arise...

 

It simply makes no sense... scoring these defensive TD's... it has nothing to do with D/ST... the teams were on offense.... You really shouldn't have to clarify that D/ST Td's will only count if the defense or special teams are on the field, but if you must, write it in your rules to help YOU out then type it up for next year...

 

Like I originally said if you're not willing to put the time and effort into viewing everything then you shouldn't run your league the way you do.... you should customize your rules through a website that does it for you and go by their ruling... simple solution

[sanders 0]

yes actually if you looked at the boxscore it would appear the Eagles had 2 defensive TDs on the day.

the difference is the ball went forward before it went backwards and therefore cannot be a lateral and thus not the equivalent of a hook and ladder play

 

 

If the ball popped out and went forward 40 yards and Buckhalter ran it in for 10 yards then Reggie still gets the credit for the 20 yards reception. He doesn't get hit for a fumble loss because Philly is in posession unless Washington gets posession. Buckhalter would only get credit for the yardage while he has the ball not the distance the ball traveled while it was fumbled.

 

The only difference between this and the hook and ladder is the slight bit of yardage no one gets credit for while the ball isn't held by anyone.

[FBH ** 0]

It's not listed in any of the front page stats on NFL. Buck has nothing? Just 20 yards rushing.

 

Casey look him up individually, then under Game Logs 06 tab, it has his seasonal stats including the fumble recovery and return for TD.

[AnaheimRams 28]

Wow... ya'll sure are stupid.

 

There are clear cut categories for scores in the NFL stats. Here are ALL the ways an offensive player can be credited with a score (without a change of posession on the play).

 

Rushing TD

Receiving TD

Fumble recovery TD

Field Goal

PAT kick

Rushing 2pt PAT

Receiving 2pt PAT

 

Currently (according to the NFL), this play is being ruled as a completed forward pass, fumble, recovery for touchdown.

 

So... he gets 6 points for a fumble recovery for TD.

 

However, if you're league has no scoring category for "Fumble Recovery" for offensive players, nobody gets the points.

 

This happens every year... and we hafta be subjected to this stupid conversation every freakin' time.

 

GEEZ!

[Chasers Dawg 9]

Casey look him up individually, then under Game Logs 06 tab, it has his seasonal stats including the fumble recovery and return for TD.

 

 

 

Look Here The FR was not a D stat. It is classed as a misc play. I'm having trouble with this in several leagues now. Gamecentre is not automatically showing all stats for every game now. Sometimes they only show regular D, editing out the SpTeams and Misc

[Let Da Big Dog Eat 37]

You have to have a change of possession for the O to become the "D" therefore I don't see how this could be a D TD.

 

That said, you have to have an Official site for stats where this type of thing is resolved. We use NFL.com. Whatever they say goes, right or wrong.

[dambu 0]

If the ball popped out and went forward 40 yards and Buckhalter ran it in for 10 yards then Reggie still gets the credit for the 20 yards reception. He doesn't get hit for a fumble loss because Philly is in posession unless Washington gets posession. Buckhalter would only get credit for the yardage while he has the ball not the distance the ball traveled while it was fumbled.

 

The only difference between this and the hook and ladder is the slight bit of yardage no one gets credit for while the ball isn't held by anyone.

 

I agree with Sanders, doesn't matter that it was unplanned, the ball is live on the fly no matter who touches it, Moe Williams got his touchdown and so should Buckhalter for bein johnny on the spot. It's just a yardage question.

 

If you score it a DT touch, I guess that makes the Immaculate Reception the best "special teams" play of all time.

[cmh6476 767]

You have to have a change of possession for the O to become the "D" therefore I don't see how this could be a D TD.

 

That said, you have to have an Official site for stats where this type of thing is resolved. We use NFL.com. Whatever they say goes, right or wrong.

 

 

this reasoning doesnt make much sense to me. Just because it's your "team defense" doesn't mean the only thing it can stand for is defensive scoring.

 

You get points for special teams and defense, and many leagues use many different means for scoring you on your team defense.

 

The wording in which means more than what you call it.

[Let Da Big Dog Eat 37]

I just checked the leagues I play in, Fanball, CBS and Yahoo. None of them are giving Philly D credit for the TD. Kind of says it all. You are all alone here cmh. Hard to justify your stance that it's a D TD. Sorry.

[cmh6476 767]

I just checked the leagues I play in, Fanball, CBS and Yahoo. None of them are giving Philly D credit for the TD. Kind of says it all. You are all alone here cmh. Hard to justify your stance that it's a D TD. Sorry.

if that's the case then you shouldn't count Longwell's throw for a TD.

 

 

If it looks like a pig, smells like a pig, squeaks like a pig, then I guess you could call it pork

 

 

with as many people that feel this way, I almost feel like I should fight it in my other league

[Durka Durka? 2]

I dont get why this is so confusing? Buckhalter should be awarded an offensive fumble recovery for a touchdown and 37 fumble return yards. In my league, Buckhalter would get 6 points...Because it awards 6 points for offensive fumble recovery touchdowns and 0 points for fumble return yards.

 

Since it's not a lateral you don't give him rushing yards and since he plays on offense you dont give the points to defense or special teams. You're not saying that when the offense recovers its own fumble, that D/ST is awarded with points are you? That would be ridiculous.

 

EDIT: and why would you not count longwell's TD pass? Whatever Longwell does, he gets points for. Whatever the D/ST does, it gets points for. Neither the defense nor special teams was on the field for Buckhalter's play. Longwell was on the field for his, he threw the pass.

[Mephisto 15]

That said, you have to have an Official site for stats where this type of thing is resolved. We use NFL.com. Whatever they say goes, right or wrong.

 

I have a similar rule. It reads something like this... "It is whatever RTS says it is... unless I feel differently about it, then is says what I say."

 

In this case, common sense should prevail. IF RTS had ruled something like this the way CMH has decided to rule it, I would absolutely overrule it. But I have common sense. Some Commish's in this thread apparently do not.

 

 

if that's the case then you shouldn't count Longwell's throw for a TD.

 

That's right. In my league, Ryan Longwell was credited for a TD pass. The Special Teams got nothing.

[cmh6476 767]

you know, I also find it hard to come in and "invent" a rule mid-season to rule this decision one way or the other.

 

Obviously, the fault lies within the definition, and therefore I think you have to do what in your best judgement is defining the rules as they are in place.

 

As best as I see it, the interpretation is that any fumble recovery or interception is ruled a TD, the rules imply that 7 points should be given to the team defense.

 

Now if the NFL comes in and changes the ruling and credits Buckhalter, then I can see justifying crediting him with the score. But the way it is and the way the rules imply, I think you need to give the score to the team defense as it is implied.

 

Then if you want to come in next year and specifically state that team defensive scores are only to be given when the defense ios on the field then fine. But I think you're just punishing me by coming in mid-season and take away points I feel I should be given.

 

I'm not arguing taking them away in the league where it will detriment me, so I'm probably just going to get focked and lose the points that were in my favor

 

I dont get why this is so confusing? Buckhalter should be awarded an offensive fumble recovery for a touchdown and 37 fumble return yards. In my league, Buckhalter would get 6 points...Because it awards 6 points for offensive fumble recovery touchdowns and 0 points for fumble return yards.

 

Since it's not a lateral you don't give him rushing yards and since he plays on offense you dont give the points to defense or special teams. You're not saying that when the offense recovers its own fumble, that D/ST is awarded with points are you? That would be ridiculous.

 

EDIT: and why would you not count longwell's TD pass? Whatever Longwell does, he gets points for. Whatever the D/ST does, it gets points for. Neither the defense nor special teams was on the field for Buckhalter's play. Longwell was on the field for his, he threw the pass.

yes, I'm sure they have been given in the past. In fact, I could probably look it up and find instances of it in both leagues, it had to have happenned in the past.

 

When a team returns a fumble or int then the team gets the credit for it. We have nothing in the rules that state Buckhalter gets credit for an offensive INT return? That would be inventing and implementing a rule we haven't used before as well.

[Mephisto 15]

you know, I also find it hard to come in and "invent" a rule mid-season to rule this decision one way or the other.

 

Obviously, the fault lies within the definition, and therefore I think you have to do what in your best judgement is defining the rules as they are in place.

 

As best as I see it, the interpretation is that any fumble recovery or interception is ruled a TD, the rules imply that 7 points should be given to the team defense.

 

Now if the NFL comes in and changes the ruling and credits Buckhalter, then I can see justifying crediting him with the score. But the way it is and the way the rules imply, I think you need to give the score to the team defense as it is implied.

 

Then if you want to come in next year and specifically state that team defensive scores are only to be given when the defense ios on the field then fine. But I think you're just punishing me by coming in mid-season and take away points I feel I should be given.

 

I'm not arguing taking them away in the league where it will detriment me, so I'm probably just going to get focked and lose the points that were in my favor

yes, I'm sure they have been given in the past. In fact, I could probably look it up and find instances of it in both leagues, it had to have happenned in the past.

 

When a team returns a fumble or int then the team gets the credit for it. We have nothing in the rules that state Buckhalter gets credit for an offensive INT return? That would be inventing and implementing a rule we haven't used before as well.

 

No, I don't have to do any such thing. You see, I have common sense... even if the NFL and you do not.

 

See how that works? As a reasonably thinking human being, I can see the situation and say to myself... "There is no focking way that the score belongs to the D or ST. No way. It can belong to EVERYONE ELSE except that." Then, I change it up accordingly.

 

HTH... even if you continue to stand your ground.

[cmh6476 767]

I have a similar rule. It reads something like this... "It is whatever RTS says it is... unless I feel differently about it, then is says what I say."

 

In this case, common sense should prevail. IF RTS had ruled something like this the way CMH has decided to rule it, I would absolutely overrule it. But I have common sense. Some Commish's in this thread apparently do not.

That's right. In my league, Ryan Longwell was credited for a TD pass. The Special Teams got nothing.

we have a set of league rules. The league rules come first and foremost, CBS sportsline is simply used as a guide to show live scoring. My league website I have setup through my local ISP hosts an uploaded Excel sheet of all my league's activity, the rules are uploaded in Word.

 

I see a need to update my league rules for next year, but until then we must live with what we got.

[Mephisto 15]

we have a set of league rules. The league rules come first and foremost, CBS sportsline is simply used as a guide to show live scoring. My league website I have setup through my local ISP hosts an uploaded Excel sheet of all my league's activity, the rules are uploaded in Word.

 

I see a need to update my league rules for next year, but until then we must live with what we got.

 

You and your league are a bunch of tardbags if you let your ruling stand.

 

HTH!!! You focking tool.

[Durka Durka? 2]

Now if the NFL comes in and changes the ruling and credits Buckhalter, then I can see justifying crediting him with the score.

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235031/gamelogs/2006

 

There ya go. The NFL gives him credit for it. Read the game log.

 

Also, you're right; you can't invent a rule midseason. If your league had not established what to do with offensive TD recoveries and fumble return yards, then you can't give buckhalter any points. But you can't give the defense points either, for the same reason.

 

EDIT: wait, you're saying that your league has credited offensive fumble recovery TD's to the defense in the past? then you have to count it. You can't change rules in the middle of the season, you're right.

 

Same goes with Colston in my yahoo league; I let the guy who has him use him as a tight end. But next year you need to change your league's rules, the same way yahoo will make colston only a WR next year.

[cmh6476 767]

here's the latest email exchange between Jim and I:

 

 

Jim wrote:

 

This is a very interesting situation we have here. Chad I think you are going to beat me anyways, but I am very glad this situation has arisen. Okay lets first start by saying, this is exactly why scoring on a website like cbs comes in handy. It has time to tell exactly what happens on every play. It knows for certain whether, after a fumble, an opposing defense gains possession or not before the ball is potentially recovered by the offense. I totally understand how easily this has been mistaken for years. Unless this happens in a chiefs game or me and craig just happened to be watching the actuall play in the eagles game you would look at the nfl.com stats and see 37 yard fumble return by Buckhalter and automatically think this is a defensive td, but can the offense not recover their own fumble and score a touchdown. I know shawn springs may have touched the ball but it never changed possession. He can touch it all he wants as long as he doesnt actually have two hands on the ball and make a football move in which in turn the eagles offense becomes a defensive team momentarily. It is real simple when you see the play and understand this is a complete offensive touchdown. It just reads in nfl.com like a defensive touchdown. I know we cant see every play but we need to get the scores correct from an integrity standpoint. I will volunteer time in the future to look into the defensive fumble td in fact to see which side of the ball actually scored and email what i come up with if it helps.Something we can easily get right we just need to address it.

 

I replied:

 

all very valid points Jim and very true. The thing is, I'm sure in the 7 years we have been playing, given TDs to teams for offensive fumble recoveries, Foot said he's sure it has happenned in the past.

 

And the points have always gone to the team with that defense, I'm sure I could look it up and find examples even from last year.

 

So then the question comes, do we move forward and implement a new rule to distinguish offensive and defensive fumble recoveries returned mid-season? I could see justifying something after this season and making a case one way or another, but in my opinions I think we would be better served clarifying what we currently have on the books as oppossed to inventing and implementing a new rule that could determine the outcome of the contests.

 

But it's whatever you guys want to do, if you want to vote on it we can and we'll let the league decide...

 

it honestly won't hurt my feelings either way

 

 

I have a feeling though, I'll either miss out on my points and have them used against me and then win both or lose both

 

 

I feel that karma coming on

 

 

 

fwiw:

 

s smith +20 > kasay

 

and

 

9 > kasay

 

[Mephisto 15]

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235031/gamelogs/2006

 

There ya go. The NFL gives him credit for it. Read the game log.

 

[cmh6476 767]

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235031/gamelogs/2006

 

There ya go. The NFL gives him credit for it. Read the game log.

 

Also, you're right; you can't invent a rule midseason. If your league had not established what to do with offensive TD recoveries and fumble return yards, then you can't give buckhalter any points. But you can't give the defense points either, for the same reason.

do i need to go back the last 7 years then and check whether all of my league's fumble recovery returns for the TD were offensive or defensive fumbles?

[Mephisto 15]

do i need to go back the last 7 years then and check whether all of my league's fumble recovery returns for the TD were offensive or defensive fumbles?

 

No, but you can do the right thing for this year and going forward. It's not as difficult as you pretend it is.

[Durka Durka? 2]

do i need to go back the last 7 years then and check whether all of my league's fumble recovery returns for the TD were offensive or defensive fumbles?

read my edit.

[AnaheimRams 28]

I dont get why this is so confusing? Buckhalter should be awarded an offensive fumble recovery for a touchdown and 37 fumble return yards. In my league, Buckhalter would get 6 points...Because it awards 6 points for offensive fumble recovery touchdowns and 0 points for fumble return yards.

 

I'm with you man. This thread is making my brain hurt. I keep thinking the next post I read will say:

 

Ha ha ha!! You guys all bought it!!! Two pages and counting!!!! Did you really think anybody could be stupid enough to NOT know this was a Fumble Recovery for a TD!!?!?!?!?! Suckers!!!!

 

"This is a joke?" - Nigel Tufnel

[cmh6476 767]

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235031/gamelogs/2006

 

There ya go. The NFL gives him credit for it. Read the game log.

 

Also, you're right; you can't invent a rule midseason. If your league had not established what to do with offensive TD recoveries and fumble return yards, then you can't give buckhalter any points. But you can't give the defense points either, for the same reason.

 

EDIT: wait, you're saying that your league has credited offensive fumble recovery TD's to the defense in the past? then you have to count it. You can't change rules in the middle of the season, you're right.

 

Same goes with Colston in my yahoo league; I let the guy who has him use him as a tight end. But next year you need to change your league's rules, the same way yahoo will make colston only a WR next year.

 

 

hell yeah, we've been doing this since back in the days of getting the usa today on monday morning

 

 

you think in all those year's an offensive fumble hasn't been counted as a TD?

 

I think the thing this week was everyone saw how the ball flew out of brown's hands and right into buckhalter's straight to the end zone.

 

Then you have the shock factor, "that's 7 points for their damn defense?"