Poor Dolphins

[Belushi 9]

I'm not saying Ginn will be a bust. And I actually like where Beck was taken. But taking Ginn that high was what made no sense. If Huston or someone else was going to take him after, fine, let them have him. A top 10 pick for a punt returner is ridiculous. Yes, Hester looked great last year and turned games around. But I doubt there's many coaches that would have taken him in the top 10 even knowing this. Dante Hall was great for a few years too and has since faded. Would you use your #9 pick on him?

 

Plus, allot of great college punt returners turn into busts at the NFL level when the competition is much faster. There was just no need to waste a pick on a special teamer at that level. At best he'll be a #2 WR in the NFL.

[pook187 0]

I'm not saying Ginn will be a bust. And I actually like where Beck was taken. But taking Ginn that high was what made no sense. If Huston or someone else was going to take him after, fine, let them have him. A top 10 pick for a punt returner is ridiculous. Yes, Hester looked great last year and turned games around. But I doubt there's many coaches that would have taken him in the top 10 even knowing this. Dante Hall was great for a few years too and has since faded. Would you use your #9 pick on him?

 

Plus, allot of great college punt returners turn into busts at the NFL level when the competition is much faster. There was just no need to waste a pick on a special teamer at that level. At best he'll be a #2 WR in the NFL.

 

It's like saying Reggie Bush will never be a true #1 back. These are unique players that you can move all over the field. And to call him just a punt returner is unfair because the guy roasted some very good DBs as a wide receiver. Check out the Texas and Michigan games from this year.

[MahSoonerz 0]

How're you coming up with your assessment that adding Ginn, Beck and Satele to a lousy offense would be destructive?

 

Ginn can't block or run routes. It's one thing to burn, say, Michael Griffin when he is playing in Austin. Let's see if he can do it when Griffin is playing with 10 other guys who are as good as he is, including one or two that will put Ginn on his ass before he even gets a chance to blow his route.

 

Beck is both a system QB and too old. A lot of his so called maturity for being older reminds me of our formerly alleged savior Chris Weinke. Beck's delivery needs a lot of work, and I don't think he has the patience to stand in the pocket looking for his third option.

 

I wasn't planning to rip on Satele, but since you insist... Satele might work out in a zone blocking scheme. IIRC, that's not what they have in Miami.

[biggtyme13 0]

What you guys dont realize is that Cam Cameron and Randy Meuller want to change what the Phins have been. No more Electric football in Miami. They dont want to have to count on a slow 12 play 75 yard drive everytime they want to score. Charley Casserley Sp? who has been around forever said that Ted Ginn is the second fastest player he has ever scouted other than Daryl Green. With the speed that him and booker bring the phins are a threat to score on every play. There are plenty of small receivers who have been great and Ginn can be up there with them. Phins had Beck over Quinn so they got their guy. Remember speed kills!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zackattack 0]

I was so pissed on draft day. I realize after reading more on why these players were picked to give Cameron a chance. I love the Dolphins even when we suck. I have to trust Cameron will turn it around. The speed will help I agree with that.

[pook187 0]

Ginn can't block or run routes. It's one thing to burn, say, Michael Griffin when he is playing in Austin. Let's see if he can do it when Griffin is playing with 10 other guys who are as good as he is, including one or two that will put Ginn on his ass before he even gets a chance to blow his route.

 

Beck is both a system QB and too old. A lot of his so called maturity for being older reminds me of our formerly alleged savior Chris Weinke. Beck's delivery needs a lot of work, and I don't think he has the patience to stand in the pocket looking for his third option.

 

I wasn't planning to rip on Satele, but since you insist... Satele might work out in a zone blocking scheme. IIRC, that's not what they have in Miami.

 

Hmmmm... let me see... Mueller's been named GM of the year twice, has drafted guys like Walter Jones, Deuce McAllister and Ahman Green and has spent the past 4 months working potential players out personally. MahSoonerz has seen 5 minutes of Youtube highlights. Who to believe?

 

Alex Smith played in the Mountain West and was considered a 'system QB'. He's looking pretty good right now.

 

Frank Coyle on Ginn:

"Dynamic playmaker with the talent to change a game with one play. He should have major impact in the return game and most likely as a rookie. He is the best return specialist I have ever scouted which includes this past year’s rookie sensation Devin Hester who Draft Insiders rated the top returner in the past decade. As a receiver, he has become one of the better deep threats in the country over the past three seasons, displaying the special burst of speed to get behind the secondary and hit the home run. He is smooth and very quick into his routes and cuts with the ability to create consistent separation in his patterns. His release off the line of scrimmage is very good and he eats up the corner’s cushion fast with the ability to retain his speed in his breaks."

[DankNuggs 305]

I like the pick....

 

 

Steve Smith/Santana Moss are much smaller than Ginn, are they kick-returners?

 

 

Ginn was the most dominant force on the most dominent offense in the country. His skill set is different than boldin in many ways, but the college production, and the doubts from ill-based juxtapositions are remarkably similar.

 

 

I am not sold that a guy has to be 6'4 220 to be an impact WR. He can make the spectacular catch, he can seperate, and he's in an offense where Chambers can be the possession guy and he can be the burner.

[MahSoonerz 0]

Hmmmm... let me see... Mueller's been named GM of the year twice, has drafted guys like Walter Jones, Deuce McAllister and Ahman Green and has spent the past 4 months working potential players out personally. MahSoonerz has seen 5 minutes of Youtube highlights. Who to believe?

 

Spoken like a true cult member. Your first point not only is inaccurate - I'm a college fb junkie - it's an argument for blind faith in everyone who gets paid to do this for a living. For you to make sense you would have to dismiss out of hand pretty everything that is ever said on this or any other FF bored. Unless of course it's washing Randy Mueller's balls.

 

Of course I could be wrong and will gladly admit it if so. That's the joy of daring to have an opinion. But if I am right, this will be comedy gold for more than a decade. Get ready.

[MahSoonerz 0]

I got to thinking about the draft genius Randy Mueller. I'm only going to count years he had significant or final say on the picks (so, for example, I won't blame him for choosing Daunte Culpepper over Drew Brees). Let's review all the QBs and WRs he has picked in the first three rounds:

 

1991, Seattle - QB Dan McGwire (1st round), WR Doug Thomas (2), WR David Daniels (3)

 

1993, Seattle - QB Rick Mirer (1 - 2nd overall)

 

1995, Seattle - WR Joey Galloway (1 - 8th overall)

 

2002, NO - WR Donte' Stallworth (1)

 

Based on this article of faith alone, you'll be lucky if Ginn is as good as Joey Galloway, and there is no hope at all for Beck.

[IGotWorms 4,058]

What you guys dont realize is that Cam Cameron and Randy Meuller want to change what the Phins have been. No more Electric football in Miami. They dont want to have to count on a slow 12 play 75 yard drive everytime they want to score. Charley Casserley Sp? who has been around forever said that Ted Ginn is the second fastest player he has ever scouted other than Daryl Green. With the speed that him and booker bring the phins are a threat to score on every play. There are plenty of small receivers who have been great and Ginn can be up there with them. Phins had Beck over Quinn so they got their guy. Remember speed kills!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I thought they were trying to put together a football squad, not a track team.

[pook187 0]

Spoken like a true cult member. Your first point not only is inaccurate - I'm a college fb junkie - it's an argument for blind faith in everyone who gets paid to do this for a living.

 

Incorrect. It's an argument that people that get paid to do this for a living know a whole hell of a lot more than the average fan and considering the players in question haven't played an NFL down yet I'd say your previous assertions are baseless and pure speculation.

 

You mean to tell me you've been slaving over U of Hawaii film when you formed your opinion that Samson Satele won't make it outside of a zone blocking scheme?

 

I like the pick....

Steve Smith/Santana Moss are much smaller than Ginn, are they kick-returners?

Ginn was the most dominant force on the most dominent offense in the country. His skill set is different than boldin in many ways, but the college production, and the doubts from ill-based juxtapositions are remarkably similar.

I am not sold that a guy has to be 6'4 220 to be an impact WR. He can make the spectacular catch, he can seperate, and he's in an offense where Chambers can be the possession guy and he can be the burner.

 

Ginn would've been gone in the next few picks regardless. Which is stunning because you'd think these highly paid professional scouting departments would've checked in with the fantasy football board before they ranked their players.

[biggtyme13 0]

I thought they were trying to put together a football squad, not a track team.

 

C'mon everyone knows that speed is one of the most important attribute of a football player especially Wr. Ginn also doesnt just have strait line speed he has that reggie bush, steve smith, Devin Hester you cant chatch me no metter where i run on the field speed. And to all the people who say he wont be able to get off the line in order to jam him dont miss or its 6.

[MahSoonerz 0]

Incorrect. It's an argument that people that get paid to do this for a living know a whole hell of a lot more than the average fan and considering the players in question haven't played an NFL down yet I'd say your previous assertions are baseless and pure speculation.

 

That McGwire and Mirer were busts is not a matter of speculation. Reminds me, this was also the guy who ran Dave Krieg out of town for Kelly Stouffer.

 

You mean to tell me you've been slaving over U of Hawaii film when you formed your opinion that Samson Satele won't make it outside of a zone blocking scheme?

 

No, I already told you, I watch a lot of WAC football. I love them Rainbows. Satele just strikes me as more of a finesse guy than a true hawg.

 

Ginn would've been gone in the next few picks regardless. Which is stunning because you'd think these highly paid professional scouting departments would've checked in with the fantasy football board before they ranked their players.

 

I never pretended to be anything but a fan with an opinion. But apparently I can still pick QB prospects better than Randy Mueller.

[pook187 0]

Every well-tenured GM has his share of QB busts. It's the nature of the position. He's a top shelf executive, regardless and I trust his judgement.

 

Satele 'strikes you as a finesse guy'? Hudson Houck worked with the guy extensively and would probably have a little better idea if the guy can play in his blocking scheme than you would, dontcha think? The guy's been coaching linemen for 30 years.

 

You're obviously entitled to you opinion but you'd be foolish to think you're a better judge of pro ability than any professional scout and to say unequivocally that players are going to be busts before they've played a down is foolish as well. In other words your layman's opinion means jack squat.

[FlaHawker 24]

I got to thinking about the draft genius Randy Mueller. I'm only going to count years he had significant or final say on the picks (so, for example, I won't blame him for choosing Daunte Culpepper over Drew Brees). Let's review all the QBs and WRs he has picked in the first three rounds:

 

1991, Seattle - QB Dan McGwire (1st round), WR Doug Thomas (2), WR David Daniels (3)

 

1993, Seattle - QB Rick Mirer (1 - 2nd overall)

 

1995, Seattle - WR Joey Galloway (1 - 8th overall)

 

2002, NO - WR Donte' Stallworth (1)

 

Based on this article of faith alone, you'll be lucky if Ginn is as good as Joey Galloway, and there is no hope at all for Beck.

Your way off on your Seahawk history. Randy Mueller had nothing to do with drafting the 1991 class, Rick Mirer, or running Dave Krieg out of Seattle for Kelly Stouffer. That distinction goes to jack asses Tom Flores and Ken Behring. Kill Mueller's picks if you like but kill him for the picks he has actually made.

[MahSoonerz 0]

Your way off on your Seahawk history. Randy Mueller had nothing to do with drafting the 1991 class, Rick Mirer, or running Dave Krieg out of Seattle for Kelly Stouffer. That distinction goes to jack asses Tom Flores and Ken Behring. Kill Mueller's picks if you like but kill him for the picks he has actually made.

 

That might could be true. I base my opinion on the fact that Mueller was Director of Player Personnel at that time. Wouldn't be the first time someone with that title had absolutely no influence on who the player personnel were. Maybe.

 

I forgot to add, this is the guy who also drafted QB Brock Huard and WR Karsten Bailey in the 3rd in 1999.

 

I will give him this: the OL draft choices in the first three rounds of the various Mueller eras were pretty stellar. I'm really only picking on Satele because little pookie insisted.

[pook187 0]

That might could be true. I base my opinion on the fact that Mueller was Director of Player Personnel at that time. Wouldn't be the first time someone with that title had absolutely no influence on who the player personnel were. Maybe.

 

I forgot to add, this is the guy who also drafted QB Brock Huard and WR Karsten Bailey in the 3rd in 1999.

 

I will give him this: the OL draft choices in the first three rounds of the various Mueller eras were pretty stellar. I'm really only picking on Satele because little pookie insisted.

 

L'il Pookie. I'm diggin' that. I may change my handle.

 

To be fair, he did acquire QBs Bulger and Delhomme. I'm not saying he's a QB guru, but overall he's a very good judge of pro talent. And Cameron has developed some very good pro QBs like Green, Brees and Rivers. So all I'm saying is there's a good chance they drafted well based on their track record but to say all three of their first picks will be busts is rediculous.

 

Time will tell. I'm sure I'll end up in your sig if any of the 3 end up playing in Canada.

[MahSoonerz 0]

L'il Pookie. I'm diggin' that. I may change my handle.

 

To be fair, he did acquire QBs Bulger and Delhomme. I'm not saying he's a QB guru, but overall he's a very good judge of pro talent. And Cameron has developed some very good pro QBs like Green, Brees and Rivers. So all I'm saying is there's a good chance they drafted well based on their track record but to say all three of their first picks will be busts is ridiculous.

 

Time will tell. I'm sure I'll end up in your sig if any of the 3 end up playing in Canada.

 

Oh pookacious one, with that reply you just guaranteed that I will respect your opinion even when I disagree with it.

[football_scooter 0]

Oh pookacious one, with that reply you just guaranteed that I will respect your opinion even when I disagree with it.

 

my, but what impressive deflection/denial when pwnd by yet another member. Instead of admitting you're wrong, you compliment and continue to imply that you disagree. Brilliant! Between this and the backtracking, your cred is swan diving to depths as yet unseen at FFT.

 

Pretty soon you'll join Bouve as "most ridiculed member" when it comes to football acumen. Congratulations - that's quite an accomplishment.

 

credibility: 4

mahsoonerz: 0

[MahSoonerz 0]

my, but what impressive deflection/denial when pwnd by yet another member. Instead of admitting you're wrong, you compliment and continue to imply that you disagree. Brilliant! Between this and the backtracking, your cred is swan diving to depths as yet unseen at FFT.

 

Pretty soon you'll join Bouve as "most ridiculed member" when it comes to football acumen. Congratulations - that's quite an accomplishment.

 

credibility: 4

mahsoonerz: 0

 

Glad you are keeping count of the number of times you have stalked me just because I poked a hole in one statistical argument you made in another thread. Saves me the trouble.

 

A more objective reader will see that I didn't say I now agree with pook187, merely that I respected the facts he used to make his case and appreciated that at least one other person around here understands that trading strongly held opinions can be done all in good fun on this bored. You really could learn a lot from the pooktastic one here.

 

Again, you are mistaken if you think I give a flip whether you or anyone else finds me credible. I have my opinions and enjoy expressing them. If others find my words valuable, I am honored. If I am right, well good for me. If I turn out to be wrong and am reminded of it (as happened with my bashing of the Bills draft last year), I'll gladly be the first to admit it. For the sake of pook187 and Dolphins fans everywhere, I hope I am wrong.

 

But none of this gives me any more faith in Ginn or Beck just yet.

[pook187 0]

Get the hell outta our thread, Scooter.

 

[pook187 0]

A few little-known facts about John Beck:

 

John Beck doesn't read playbooks. He stares them down until he gets the information he wants.

 

John Beck was born with his helmet on.

 

John Beck started the Mormon tradition of multiple wives.

 

John Beck has two speeds: walk and touchdown.

 

Tom Landry borrowed that silly hat from John Beck.

 

John Beck is actually 12 years old. He tells people he's 26 so they don't feel bad that a 12 year old just stole their girlfriend.

 

John Beck once lined up to kick the winning field goal in high school. When the football went flat, he persuaded the referees to let him kick the field goal with a 3 month old child. John kicked the baby 90 yards through the uprights and then proceeded to bang every woman in the stadium.

 

John Beck doesn't need to swallow when eating food.

 

John Beck accidentally impregnated his center on a QB sneak. The offspring was Vince Lombardi.

 

John Beck prefers Mr. Pibb to Dr. Pepper. When asked why, he responded, "I dont trust doctors."

 

John Beck frequently donates blood to the Red Cross. Just never his own.

[Ruphus 0]

Well, I delayed commenting on this thread and the Dolphins draft to gather my thoughts on it, and I've come to the conclusion that I am proud of what Randy Mueller and Cam Cameron did on draft day.

 

Watching the draft, and seeing Quinn slide all the way to Miami in the 1st, I was ecstatic, I was calling my friends, hooting and cheering, thinking, "Omg, Brady Quinn is gonna slide to us!" and then I was flabbergasted by the fact that Miami took, Tedd Focking Ginn Jr. I was really questioning my faith in my phins that day.

 

But, I started thinking about it, reading this thread and numerous others concerning these poor draft decisions. And I finally realized, that I probably would have done the same thing.

 

Think about it like you would during your Fantasy Football Draft. Before the draft, you make a "cheat sheet" or a "rankings" of each player and position, at least of the players you want and/or hope to draft.

 

Miami's QB cheatsheet probably looked like this....

 

#1. JaMarcus Russel

 

#2. Brady Quinn

#3. John Beck

#4. Drew Stanton

 

#5. Kevin, Kolb

#6. Trent Edwards

etc etc.

 

Now, if you see Brady Quinn as the #2 QB in your upcoming draft, but you see John Beck and Drew Stanton in the same "tier" it would be most beneficial, and a good decision, to pass on the 2nd rated QB, especially if you KNEW you would get the 3rd or 4th, and they were equal value.

 

Example. Your Fantasy Team is picking in the 7th slot of the 4th round. You can take Tom Brady here, or you KNOW you can take Marc Bulger in round 5. What would you do?

 

Now, Miami was able to get what they felt was the #2 WR on the board, and the #3 QB. If they took Quinn at #9, they would have gotten the #2 QB and about the # 6-7 WR.

 

Now that I have thought about it like that, it all came perfectly clear to me

 

Go Phins!

[pook187 0]

Good analysis. That's exactly how I see it.

[IGotWorms 4,058]

Beck spent three years on a Mormon mission, so...

[mikeso 0]

miami had a wack draft....couldnt believe they passed on brady quinn...they will be suffering for a while..

 

i have the 10th pick this year in a re-draft league and i was targeting ronnie brown but not no mo...

[UncleHulka 0]

miami had a wack draft....couldnt believe they passed on brady quinn...they will be suffering for a while..

 

i have the 10th pick this year in a re-draft league and i was targeting ronnie brown but not no mo...

Don't underestimate Cam. He'll find a way for that offense to move the ball. And even a washed up Trent Green is probably better than a rookie Rick Mirer clone.

[pook187 0]

miami had a wack draft....couldnt believe they passed on brady quinn...they will be suffering for a while..

 

i have the 10th pick this year in a re-draft league and i was targeting ronnie brown but not no mo...

 

And you would have drafted Ronnie had they taken Quinn?

 

You don't think a 4.2 guy on the outside and great field position would help a fantasy back more than a rookie QB?

 

That's some wack reasoning, yo.

[MahSoonerz 0]

I am pretty high on Ronnie Brown and think he will be undervalued fantasy-wise in 2007. Forget Beck, we should still be operating under the assumption that Trent Green will be the QB there next year. The OL has been upgraded. Ricky Williams is an afterthought. Forget Ginn, they still have Chambers (ready to bounce back from an off year), Booker (grossly undervalued imho), and Hagan (almost certainly ready to step up). The only true warning sign really is losing Randy McMichael and replacing him with David Martin. I do think they will miss Welker, but there are plenty of decent WRs without a team right now if they need depth there.

 

In short, I don't see how drafting Ginn and Beck, even if they both are total busts, lowers Ronnie Brown's value for 2007.

[MLCKAA 575]

To be completely honest, I love Beck as their future QB. I am no Dolphins fan, but I look forward to seeing him succeed and play there for a decade. Only knock is his age.

[Durtee 0]

Well, I delayed commenting on this thread and the Dolphins draft to gather my thoughts on it, and I've come to the conclusion that I am proud of what Randy Mueller and Cam Cameron did on draft day.

 

Watching the draft, and seeing Quinn slide all the way to Miami in the 1st, I was ecstatic, I was calling my friends, hooting and cheering, thinking, "Omg, Brady Quinn is gonna slide to us!" and then I was flabbergasted by the fact that Miami took, Tedd Focking Ginn Jr. I was really questioning my faith in my phins that day.

 

But, I started thinking about it, reading this thread and numerous others concerning these poor draft decisions. And I finally realized, that I probably would have done the same thing.

 

Think about it like you would during your Fantasy Football Draft. Before the draft, you make a "cheat sheet" or a "rankings" of each player and position, at least of the players you want and/or hope to draft.

 

Miami's QB cheatsheet probably looked like this....

 

#1. JaMarcus Russel

 

#2. Brady Quinn

#3. John Beck

#4. Drew Stanton

 

#5. Kevin, Kolb

#6. Trent Edwards

etc etc.

 

Now, if you see Brady Quinn as the #2 QB in your upcoming draft, but you see John Beck and Drew Stanton in the same "tier" it would be most beneficial, and a good decision, to pass on the 2nd rated QB, especially if you KNEW you would get the 3rd or 4th, and they were equal value.

 

Example. Your Fantasy Team is picking in the 7th slot of the 4th round. You can take Tom Brady here, or you KNOW you can take Marc Bulger in round 5. What would you do?

 

Now, Miami was able to get what they felt was the #2 WR on the board, and the #3 QB. If they took Quinn at #9, they would have gotten the #2 QB and about the # 6-7 WR.

 

Now that I have thought about it like that, it all came perfectly clear to me

 

Go Phins!

 

 

That is a good analysis. The only problem I have with it is, nobody knows if Ginn can play. We all know that he's fast and could be an explosive punt/kick returner, but he only ran three routes at Ohio St. and every time Troy Smith needed somebody to go to it seems like he went to Gonzalez and not Ginn. I wasn't sold on him being the #2 WR in this draft. Meachem, Bowe and Gonzalez are all more complete WR's and i'm not sure that Ginn's speed makes up for that. I'm not sure if Cameron himself thinks that, all I heard in his press conference was how great of a punt returner he was going to be. IMO if they wanted him they should have traded down a few spots or at least tried to. I'm pretty sure as long as they would have still drafted ahead of Tennessee then Ginn would have still been there.

[pook187 0]

That is a good analysis. The only problem I have with it is, nobody knows if Ginn can play. We all know that he's fast and could be an explosive punt/kick returner, but he only ran three routes at Ohio St. and every time Troy Smith needed somebody to go to it seems like he went to Gonzalez and not Ginn. I wasn't sold on him being the #2 WR in this draft. Meachem, Bowe and Gonzalez are all more complete WR's and i'm not sure that Ginn's speed makes up for that. I'm not sure if Cameron himself thinks that, all I heard in his press conference was how great of a punt returner he was going to be. IMO if they wanted him they should have traded down a few spots or at least tried to. I'm pretty sure as long as they would have still drafted ahead of Tennessee then Ginn would have still been there.

 

That's fair. He's not a slam dunk WR stud. But he'll help them in many ways.

 

Schefter says Houston would've taken him at 10 and the Rams would've probably as well, so I can't fault the Fins for taking the guy they had targeted, even if it was a little bit high.

[skinnyboyfromclevelandoh 0]

Sounds like whistling in the dark to me.

 

 

Frank's whistle tool (__)_):::::