Poker tourney last night. OUCH

[edjr 6,898]

blinds are 2000 - 4000

 

I'm the seat behind the dealer.

 

I get dealt As,Ks and have about 60,000

 

comes to me, 2 limpers before it gets to me. I bump it to 8,000 (it's hard to do 3 times with the stack sizes we have)

 

I get 2 callers.

 

Flop comes 9s,9c,8s.

 

Checked around to me I bet 10k, get 1 caller (he has more chips than me)

 

Turn comes 2s (yahtzee)

 

Guy checks, I bet 10k, he asks how much I have, (sh1t i think to myself, can he really have me beat) says I'll put you all in.

 

I call...

 

he slams down QUAD 9's, I , shake his hand say nice hand then I go cry in my soup.

 

1st time ever getting knocked out by quads.

 

Not many people could lay that hand down in the spot, very few if any actually.

[DankNuggs 305]

Min raising = bad. Raise 2.5x...10k... 99 still calls and you go bust, but at least give yourself an advantage. Playing small ball to win small pots and lose big ones is not long term +ev...

[edjr 6,898]

Min raising = bad. Raise 2.5x...10k... 99 still calls and you go bust, but at least give yourself an advantage. Playing small ball to win small pots and lose big ones is not long term +ev...

 

Thanks Phil Helmuth, I'm sure that extra 2500 makes a huge difference.

 

You don't play in the tourney, not everyone is the same. hth

 

No matter what I did I was going broke.

 

 

a few hands early I had QQ and I raised 3 times the blind and a guy laid down 7's. I lost by raising too much.

 

AK suited is a great drawing hand, I didn't want to lose the guy with 9's. HTH

 

You don't play there, you don't know how people play.

[DankNuggs 305]

Thanks Phil Helmuth, I'm sure that extra 2500 makes a huge difference.

 

You don't play in the tourney, not everyone is the same. hth

your welcome... play that situation 1000's of times... Min raising invites the blinds to take a look and drastically reduces your equity...

[edjr 6,898]

your welcome... play that situation 1000's of times... Min raising invites the blinds to take a look and drastically reduces your equity...

My welcome what?

 

Big blind didn't win, the guy with 9's that would have called no matter what did. you know sh1t. hth

[DankNuggs 305]

 

a few hands early I had QQ and I raised 3 times the blind and a guy laid down 7's. I lost by raising too much.

 

Once blinds get to be worth stealing, raise 2.5x every times you open the pot regardless of stength of hand, you will see your results improve...

[cbfalcon 827]

blinds are 2000 - 4000

 

I'm the seat behind the dealer.

 

I get dealt As,Ks and have about 60,000

 

comes to me, 2 limpers before it gets to me. I bump it to 8,000 (it's hard to do 3 times with the stack sizes we have)

 

I get 2 callers.

 

Flop comes 9s,9c,8s.

 

Checked around to me I bet 10k, get 1 caller (he has more chips than me)

 

Turn comes 2s (yahtzee)

 

Guy checks, I bet 10k, he asks how much I have, (sh1t i think to myself, can he really have me beat) says I'll put you all in.

 

I call...

 

he slams down QUAD 9's, I , shake his hand say nice hand then I go cry in my soup.

 

1st time ever getting knocked out by quads.

 

Not many people could lay that hand down in the spot, very few if any actually.

 

You played it fine.

 

Had you raised more preflop, then making one continuation bet on the flop possibly gets you pot committed even if you miss.

 

And you have to call the all in. The guy could have an overpair (10s-AA). If he is a loose player, he could have a Q-J or J-10 flush, or more likely an A-9 type hand.

 

If quads beat you, then quads beat you.

[DankNuggs 305]

My welcome what?

 

Big blind didn't win, the guy with 9's that would have called no matter what did. you know sh1t. hth

You can play poorly and lose, poorly and win, well and lose, and well and win... the trick to understanding poker is seperating play from results...

[edjr 6,898]

Once blinds get to be worth stealing, raise 2.5x every times you open the pot regardless of stength of hand, you will see your results improve...

 

I DIDNT WANT TO STEAL THE FOCKING BLINDS! I WANTED TO GET CALLERS WITH AK suited and try and hit a flop and get chips.

 

it's a fast tourney, you don't fock around and steal blinds, it gets you nowhere. You win by getting chips.

 

it's a 3 to 4 hour tourney max, we're not there all night, blinds go up every 20 minutes.

 

it's not vegas. HTH

[DankNuggs 305]

I DIDNT WANT TO STEAL THE FOCKING BLINDS! I WANTED TO GET CALLERS WITH AK suited and try and hit a flop and get chips.

 

it's a fast tourney, you don't fock around and steal blinds, it gets you nowhere. You win by getting chips.

 

it's a 3 to 4 hour tourney max, we're not there all night, blinds go up every 20 minutes.

 

it's not vegas. HTH

your animosity and machismo isn't going to help you improve... Unless the opening min-raise pot commits the caller (in which case the opening size doesn't matter at all) it is a bad opening... You have 15bb to open the hand... That is deep enough...

[FeelingMN 273]

Tough beat. You were going to lose no matter what. Crappy way to end your run.

 

In general terms though, I think Dank is right. Minimum raises get you into a lot of trouble. But in ed's case, there probably wasn't much else he could do. Go strong, scare everyone away, then bleed slowly the rest of the night? Or play for the nut flush, trap somebody and scrape together a big pot? ed got what he wanted...just ran into some bad luck.

[patweisers44 865]

Thoughts and Prayers Edjr.

[cbfalcon 827]

I DIDNT WANT TO STEAL THE FOCKING BLINDS! I WANTED TO GET CALLERS WITH AK suited and try and hit a flop and get chips.

 

it's a fast tourney, you don't fock around and steal blinds, it gets you nowhere. You win by getting chips.

 

it's a 3 to 4 hour tourney max, we're not there all night, blinds go up every 20 minutes.

 

it's not vegas. HTH

 

Agreed. In 4 hour tourneys, you are often only going to get a hand as strong as AKs 4 or 5 times. Your plan is such quick tourny's has to be to make as much money as possible on these hands.

 

You try to win small pots with BS cards. You take risks to win big pots when you actually have the goods.

 

How long a tourney lasts is possibly the biggest factor in how you play.

[DankNuggs 305]

Tough beat. You were going to lose no matter what. Crappy way to end your run.

 

In general terms though, I think Dank is right. Minimum raises get you into a lot of trouble. But in ed's case, there probably wasn't much else he could do. Go strong, scare everyone away, then bleed slowly the rest of the night? Or play for the nut flush, trap somebody and scrape together a big pot? ed got what he wanted...just ran into some bad luck.

That hand is toast, was just trying to help they guy out... 2.5x doesn't 'scare anyone away', I agree that 3x does once blinds get big... it makes them pay the see a flop and doesn't give implied odds to the blinds to stick around.

[DankNuggs 305]

Agreed. In 4 hour tourneys, you are often only going to get a hand as strong as AKs 4 or 5 times. Your plan is such quick tourny's has to be to make as much money as possible on these hands.

 

You try to win small pots with BS cards. You take risks to win big pots when you actually have the goods.

 

How long a tourney lasts is possibly the biggest factor in how you play.

Your M (# of SB+BB+Ante per rotation) should determine how you play... Obv correlation to blind structure.

[edjr 6,898]

That hand is toast, was just trying to help they guy out... 2.5x doesn't 'scare anyone away', I agree that 3x does once blinds get big... it makes them pay the see a flop and doesn't give implied odds to the blinds to stick around.

 

I know how to play, as I said I had just raised 3x with QQ and lost a guy that laid down 7's, he showed everyone. he even said, if I raised less he would have called. Doesn't mean I win, but I surely had a 80% chance to win more $ had he called. Instead I wasted QQ

[DankNuggs 305]

I know how to play, as I said I had just raised 3x with QQ and lost a guy that laid down 7's, he showed everyone. he even said, if I raised less he would have called. Doesn't mean I win, but I surely had a 80% chance to win more $ had he called. Instead I wasted QQ

You don't listen. w/e. I concede, you know all.

[edjr 6,898]

You don't listen. w/e. I concede, you know all.

 

Clearly you do.

[FeelingMN 273]

That hand is toast, was just trying to help they guy out... 2.5x doesn't 'scare anyone away', I agree that 3x does once blinds get big... it makes them pay the see a flop and doesn't give implied odds to the blinds to stick around.

 

I agree. Force those fockers to make a decision. Get some info from them...maybe you get a tell from somebody. Raising 2x doesn't do any of that. It's an easy call.

 

But in ed's defense, there was some history leading up to this hand, and besides playing against other players, you're also up against the clock. You gotta make premium hands pay or you'll bleed slowly and are forced to play crappy hands for all your chips. He wasted his QQ and needed to make his AK hold up. He got exactly what he wanted....other dude just ran into a better hand.

 

I don't ever play in timed tourneys, so I don't have a good feel for the dynamic. But I can see where ed is coming from.

 

In any other circumstance though, I totally agree with your approach.

[DankNuggs 305]

Clearly you do.

Nope, you can never have it figured out, the game evolves and being one step above the current trends gives you a leg up.... Played in 2 world series ME's and also played internationally... I have some experience against good competition.

[edjr 6,898]

I agree. Force those fockers to make a decision. Get some info from them...maybe you get a tell from somebody. Raising 2x doesn't do any of that. It's an easy call.

 

But in ed's defense, there was some history leading up to this hand, and besides playing against other players, you're also up against the clock. You gotta make premium hands pay or you'll bleed slowly and are forced to play crappy hands for all your chips. He wasted his QQ and needed to make his AK hold up. He got exactly what he wanted....other dude just ran into a better hand.

 

I don't ever play in timed tourneys, so I don't have a good feel for the dynamic. But I can see where ed is coming from.

 

In any other circumstance though, I totally agree with your approach.

 

I hate timed tournies with a passion, or at least blinds that go up every 20 mins. but its all I have for options where I live... I won the same tourney 6 weeks before, this was my 3rd time playing.

[KSB2424 3,173]

You were prolly going broke no matter what you did. Tough luck.

 

Obviously in poker every hand, table, tournament is different and unique from another. However as a general rule I don't like ever raising one time the blinds. If I raise preflop it's at least 3 times the big blind. Or I simply just call.

 

Not that either would have changed you losing the hand but just sayin' (generally speaking).

[edjr 6,898]

You were prolly going broke no matter what you did. Tough luck.

 

Obviously in poker every hand, table, tournament is different and unique from another. However as a general rule I don't like ever raising one time the blinds. If I raise preflop it's at least 3 times the big blind. Or I simply just call.

 

Not that either would have changed you losing the hand but just sayin' (generally speaking).

 

I agree with you guys 100%, but in this type of tourney 3 times is a huge raise, most people barely raise at all, as the blinds get so high most people limp. When you go 3 times, it scares everyone away

[DankNuggs 305]

I agree. Force those fockers to make a decision. Get some info from them...maybe you get a tell from somebody. Raising 2x doesn't do any of that. It's an easy call.

 

But in ed's defense, there was some history leading up to this hand, and besides playing against other players, you're also up against the clock. You gotta make premium hands pay or you'll bleed slowly and are forced to play crappy hands for all your chips. He wasted his QQ and needed to make his AK hold up. He got exactly what he wanted....other dude just ran into a better hand.

 

I don't ever play in timed tourneys, so I don't have a good feel for the dynamic. But I can see where ed is coming from.

 

In any other circumstance though, I totally agree with your approach.

The blinds are moving just as fast for everyone else... Quicker the structure, the wider range of hands you should be seeing, which puts premiums at that much more of an advantage... AK is only a 60/40 favorite against random junk hands. BB can make a call for 4k to win 30k, with implied odds to take his 60k stack since raising and c-betting is awfully close to pot committed.

[KSB2424 3,173]

it scares everyone away

Sometimes that's a good thing.

 

But you're right. The pace of play on the table dictates more of how you bet than anything else. But maybe, just mabye, if you loosen it up, other would follow. And maybe just maybe if you would have made it $1200 or $1600 the 99 would have had to think about calling a little more and folded.

[edjr 6,898]

Sometimes that's a good thing.

 

But you're right. The pace of play on the table dictates more of how you bet than anything else. But maybe, just mabye, if you loosen it up, other would follow. And maybe just maybe if you would have made it $1200 or $1600 the 99 would have had to think about calling a little more and folded.

 

blinds were 2000/4000, I raised to 8000. if I went to 12000 or 16000, then I am sorta pot commited no matter what the flop is really, if he calls or raises. so if I dont hit an A, k or spades I have to go all in to win and probably get called.

 

if he lays it down, I am collecting 8,000 on another premium hand? No thanks

[DankNuggs 305]

blinds were 2000/4000, I raised to 8000. if I went to 12000 or 16000, then I am sorta pot commited no matter what the flop is really, if he calls or raises. so if I dont hit an A, k or spades I have to go all in to win and probably get called.

 

if he lays it down, I am collecting 8,000 on another premium hand? No thanks

You are minraising AKs to hit an A,K or spade flush? else you are shutting down? And you want to be in a multiway pot... And your pf bet + c-bet is 1/3 your stack... And I'm the idiot... LOL...

[edjr 6,898]

You are minraising AKs to hit an A,K or spade flush? else you are shutting down? And you want to be in a multiway pot... And your pf bet + c-bet is 1/3 your stack... And I'm the idiot... LOL...

 

I won the same tourney 6 weeks prior.

 

let me know when your poker book comes out.

[FeelingMN 273]

The blinds are moving just as fast for everyone else... Quicker the structure, the wider range of hands you should be seeing, which puts premiums at that much more of an advantage... AK is only a 60/40 favorite against random junk hands. BB can make a call for 4k to win 30k, with implied odds to take his 60k stack since raising and c-betting is awfully close to pot committed.

 

Of course, but none of this is happening in a vacuum. Ed thinks he just wasted QQ. He really needs to make AK pay...ASAP. He got the cards he wanted, other dude just found some luck. Whatever, it happens.

 

Bottom line....we're all focusing on his betting. But in this instance, it seems like no matter what he did he was going to lose. If he raises to 12, 99 is still along for the ride. Ed's gotta make a quick decision....all in or bail. With that flop, he's all in on a draw though he's dead.

 

Really, no matter how he plays it, he's going home on that hand unless he's clairvoyant. Just a bad beat....it happens.

[edjr 6,898]

Of course, but none of this is happening in a vacuum. Ed thinks he just wasted QQ. He really needs to make AK pay...ASAP. He got the cards he wanted, other dude just found some luck. Whatever, it happens.

 

Bottom line....we're all focusing on his betting. But in this instance, it seems like no matter what he did he was going to lose. If he raises to 12, 99 is still along for the ride. Ed's gotta make a quick decision....all in or bail. With that flop, he's all in on a draw though he's dead.

 

Really, no matter how he plays it, he's going home on that hand unless he's clairvoyant. Just a bad beat....it happens.

 

And thats the thing... If a spade doesn't come on the turn I can get away from the hand with money left, assuming he bets.

 

if I raise too much on before the flop, I am pot commited no matter what happens in the hand.

[DankNuggs 305]

Of course, but none of this is happening in a vacuum. Ed thinks he just wasted QQ. He really needs to make AK pay...ASAP. He got the cards he wanted, other dude just found some luck. Whatever, it happens.

 

Bottom line....we're all focusing on his betting. But in this instance, it seems like no matter what he did he was going to lose. If he raises to 12, 99 is still along for the ride. Ed's gotta make a quick decision....all in or bail. With that flop, he's all in on a draw though he's dead.

 

Really, no matter how he plays it, he's going home on that hand unless he's clairvoyant. Just a bad beat....it happens.

When i review hands I look at preflop action (disregarding flop cards) then i look at flop action (disregarding turn and river)...etc..etc..

 

Agreed it is a cooler especially in a tourney this fast.. No doubt... I just offered him a generically better line..

[DankNuggs 305]

I won the same tourney 6 weeks prior.

 

let me know when your poker book comes out.

You are too focused on results... You have at best 30% chance of hitting a spade, A, K on the turn there... You are risking 30% of your stack to do so... There is no edge, you might as well roll a dice or flip coins or something...quicker than shuffling cards...

[cbfalcon 827]

You are minraising AKs to hit an A,K or spade flush? else you are shutting down? And you want to be in a multiway pot... And your pf bet + c-bet is 1/3 your stack... And I'm the idiot... LOL...

 

I'm oversimplifying on the math here just to make a point.

 

But by bringing in a caller, Edjr has about a 50% chance of hitting (wins more), a 25% chance of winning even if he misses (wins more) and a 25% chance of losing the hand or going broke.

 

OBVIOUSLY in a long tournament you don't want to take a 25% risk until it's time for the endgame. We've all seen Hellmtuh fold KK early because he knew the other guy was all in with a naked Ace and he wasn't willing to take that risk.

 

But in a 4 hour tournament, the last 90 minutes are pretty much endgame time. You have to take risks, or you die.

 

Granted, I don't have the expertise from playing WSOP main events like people here say they do, but I'm pretty experienced on how you play these 3-5 hour live tournaments.

[cbfalcon 827]

Agreed it is a cooler especially in a tourney this fast.. No doubt... I just offered him a generically better line..

 

You offered him a generically better line for winning the hand. But a worse line for winning the tournament.

 

That's what it all comes down to.

[DankNuggs 305]

I'm oversimplifying on the math here just to make a point.

 

But by bringing in a caller, Edjr has about a 50% chance of hitting (wins more), a 25% chance of winning even if he misses (wins more) and a 25% chance of losing the hand or going broke.

 

OBVIOUSLY in a long tournament you don't want to take a 25% risk until it's time for the endgame. We've all seen Hellmtuh fold KK early because he knew the other guy was all in with a naked Ace and he wasn't willing to take that risk.

 

But in a 4 hour tournament, the last 90 minutes are pretty much endgame time. You have to take risks, or you die.

 

Granted, I don't have the expertise from playing WSOP main events like people here say they do, but I'm pretty experienced on how you play these 3-5 hour live tournaments.

You are taking a hand that likely dominates heads up and turn it into a drawing hand that is likely to lose 3 handed. You are doing this with 15bb and an M of 10... You should't be playing drawing/speculative hands at this point... You are right on the cusp of push/fold poker... Single digit M you should be prepared to showdown when you enter the pot...

[DankNuggs 305]

You offered him a generically better line for winning the hand. But a worse line for winning the tournament.

 

That's what it all comes down to.

Makes a better soundbyte than a point... You got some Bomama in you!

[DanXIII 8]

blinds are 2000 - 4000

 

I'm the seat behind the dealer.

 

I get dealt As,Ks and have about 60,000

 

 

A similar situation happened to me last night. I had AK spades. I was on the button. Similar stack size to yours. Similar blinds. Third hour into a 4-ish hour tournament. I raised 3x the bb. SB and BB folded to a limper, who had roughly 2x my stack size. He called.

 

Flop was 10c 8d 3d. No spades. No aces. No kings. I began to lament ever considering playing AK, as it appears that once again I am going to bust out with it. My previous caller checks to me. I sense weakness, so I move in for a pot-sized bet (I wanted to take that pot down right then and there). He min raises. I call. I'm pretty much pot committed at this point, or at least I felt I was (maybe the beer clouded my judgment a bit). Turn comes 9c. He checks to me again. I put him on a flush draw. I had been playing fairly tight most of the time since I had moved to that table so I figured I could scare him off with a big bet. I went all in. He called and flips over Ad 10d. I flip over my AK spades as nausea set in. He had more outs than I and I'm nearly drawing dead. River is a 2s. He missed his flush but his 10s held up and I'm done for the night.

 

Had an even worse beat last Sat when someone at the table went all in with pocket 10s while I'm holding pocket As. I had to call him. He flopped a set and it held up. I'm really starting to hate the number 10 at this point in my life.

 

[DankNuggs 305]

A similar situation happened to me last night. I had AK spades. I was on the button. Similar stack size to yours. Similar blinds. Third hour into a 4-ish hour tournament. I raised 3x the bb. SB and BB folded to a limper, who had roughly 2x my stack size. He called.

 

Flop was 10c 8d 3d. No spades. No aces. No kings. I began to lament ever considering playing AK, as it appears that once again I am going to bust out with it. My previous caller checks to me. I sense weakness, so I move in for a pot-sized bet (I wanted to take that pot down right then and there). He min raises. I call. I'm pretty much pot committed at this point, or at least I felt I was (maybe the beer clouded my judgment a bit). Turn comes 9c. He checks to me again. I put him on a flush draw. I had been playing fairly tight most of the time since I had moved to that table so I figured I could scare him off with a big bet. I went all in. He called and flips over Ad 10d. I flip over my AK spades as nausea set in. He had more outs than I and I'm nearly drawing dead. River is a 2s. He missed his flush but his 10s held up and I'm done for the night.

 

Had an even worse beat last Sat when someone at the table went all in with pocket 10s while I'm holding pocket As. I had to call him. He flopped a set and it held up. I'm really starting to hate the number 10 at this point in my life.

 

Mistake was better too much on the flop... Avg gimp knows weak/strong... bet 1/2 pot and fold to reraise... The real sticky spot is if he flats your cbet... then it gets read dependant...

[DanXIII 8]

Mistake was better too much on the flop... Avg gimp knows weak/strong... bet 1/2 pot and fold to reraise... The real sticky spot is if he flats your cbet... then it gets read dependant...

 

I'm sure you're right. I also feel like he would have called any bet there just to see another card, especially since I saw him win two hands previously after I arrived at that table with top-pair top-kicker. I don't think he was going anywhere. Still, the variance is getting frustrating. I am beginning to understand Kilroy's angst.

 

[nobody 2,882]

I DIDNT WANT TO STEAL THE FOCKING BLINDS! I WANTED TO GET CALLERS WITH AK suited and try and hit a flop and get chips.

 

25% of your stack was already in the pot. I would have jammed and took a race with the 99's with the extra money in the pot.