ted cruz

[IGotWorms 4,060]

 

Yes, who is a citizen changes over the years. The argument about how the "birthers" were consistent in their treatment of Cruz compared to Obama isn't BS, it's applying the same criteria to both (with the caveat of the hypothetical before you freak out again) using the citizenship test, and expecting a definitive ruling on "Natural Born" by the SC on the resultant lawsuit.

 

So now you're a liberal, and an originalist? Must quite a dilemma for you justifying the tons of gubmint laws, regulations, departments, and programs for which the Founders did not grant power.

 

And there is much argument over what the Founders meant about "Natural Born", correct? Can we ever be positive what that is? There's a lot of differing opinions, and there are quite a few people who think it means someone born in the US to 2 citizen parents, which would disqualify both Obama and Cruz, and if I remember right, a couple of actual past presidents. Do you think if the issue were ever decided by the Court, it might rule that way? I don't. I guess I'm considering the Constitution a "living document" in this regard, lacking any concrete proof of what they meant 225+ years ago. Geez, I guess I'm more liberal than you on this matter, then. How 'bout that?

You have no idea what you're talking about. Which is fine - I assume you have no training or experience in the law so I'm not surprised you aren't knowledgeable at all. It'd be a little like me trying to argue rocket science or open heart surgery.

 

At any rate, this isn't a difference of opinion. It's one dude bloviating on a subject he knows nothing about, in a desperate attempt to justify a movement that was beyond stupid from the get-go.

[Voltaire 5,387]

So why do you keep talking about IF he was born there? If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

Because I asked.

 

I thought it was hilarious how there was a double standard about how Obummer got this treatment but that Cruz didn't. It seemed to me their situation was identical. If Obummer had been born overseas to an American mother as had Cruz, why were/are they treated so differently?

 

It never entered my mind me that there could possibly exist a legitimate difference to allow someone to get p*ssed off about Obummer being born overseas and yet not get pissed off about Cruz being born overseas and still remain consistent.

 

But -oh my god!- one actually is! In the 60s, American citizens under 19 could not pass on citizenship to children born overseas. Therefor, Obummer's mother HAD TO deliver baby Barack in Hawaii to give him US citizenship. I did not know this. Oops.

[HenryHill9323 65]

 

It never entered my mind me that there could possibly exist a legitimate difference to allow someone to get p*ssed off about Obummer being born overseas and yet not get pissed off about Cruz being born overseas and still remain consistent.

 

 

Geography much?

[Voltaire 5,387]

Geography much?

It was hard to type. Michigan has way more in common with Ontario than we do with Alabama or California or Texas or New York or Massachusetts.

 

It's always been weird thinking of Canada as a different country since Windsor, Canada is local. It's essentially another Detroit suburb, much closer to the east side than other suburbs like Dearborn or Lincoln Park I've always been to much more likely to go to Canada than to those western suburbs. Maybe even more than Oakland County. Well, almost.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

Because I asked.

 

I thought it was hilarious how there was a double standard about how Obummer got this treatment but that Cruz didn't. It seemed to me their situation was identical. If Obummer had been born overseas to an American mother as had Cruz, why were/are they treated so differently?

 

It never entered my mind me that there could possibly exist a legitimate difference to allow someone to get p*ssed off about Obummer being born overseas and yet not get pissed off about Cruz being born overseas and still remain consistent.

 

But -oh my god!- one actually is! In the 60s, American citizens under 19 could not pass on citizenship to children born overseas. Therefor, Obummer's mother HAD TO deliver baby Barack in Hawaii to give him US citizenship. I did not know this. Oops.

But in 1787 anyone holding the office of the presidency had to be a natural born citizen.

 

In 2008 Obummer had to be a natural born citizen.

 

In 2016 Ted Cruz would have to be a natural born citizen.

 

What does that term mean? Nobody knows for sure. But one thing I can pretty much guarantee you is it doesn't shift over time on every occasion where Congress decides to tweak immigration law.

 

If it was up to Congress to set the presidency requirements, the Constitution damn well would've said so. Separation of powers and all

[Voltaire 5,387]

But in 1787 anyone holding the office of the presidency had to be a natural born citizen.

 

No. Anyone who was a citizen in 1787 could have become president. Alexander Hamilton, say, born in the British West Indies to non-American parents would have eligible. It's also why Andrew Jackson, born in 1767 to two Irish immigrants deep in the backwoods somewhere along the ill-defined North Carolina/South Carolina border with no issued birth certificate was eligible to run.

[MDC 7,650]

Because I asked.

 

I thought it was hilarious how there was a double standard about how Obummer got this treatment but that Cruz didn't. It seemed to me their situation was identical. If Obummer had been born overseas to an American mother as had Cruz, why were/are they treated so differently?

 

It never entered my mind me that there could possibly exist a legitimate difference to allow someone to get p*ssed off about Obummer being born overseas and yet not get pissed off about Cruz being born overseas and still remain consistent.

 

But -oh my god!- one actually is! In the 60s, American citizens under 19 could not pass on citizenship to children born overseas. Therefor, Obummer's mother HAD TO deliver baby Barack in Hawaii to give him US citizenship. I did not know this. Oops.

Yes that is the excuse du jour for hypocritical birthtard losers.

[HenryHill9323 65]

But in 1787 anyone holding the office of the presidency had to be a natural born citizen.

 

We declared Independence in 1776, so anyone over 11 was disqualified to hold the office of President?

[Thornton Melon 639]

But in 1787 anyone holding the office of the presidency had to be a natural born citizen.

 

 

And you're giving me crap about Constitutional matters???? Holy Shite!!!

[Thornton Melon 639]

By the way, Worms, this is the federal statute I was talking about, right from the State Department website, which you claim you never heard of:

 

 

Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock

A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) of the INA provided the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen, is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen, is required for physical presence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.) The U.S. citizen parent must be the genetic or the gestational parent and the legal parent of the child under local law at the time and place of the child’s birth to transmit U.S. citizenship.

 

http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-child-born-abroad.html

 

So, if Obama had been born abroad, he could not have been a US citizen at birth. Yes, I agree, this does not answer whether he would've been eligible for the Presidency under the "Natural Born Citizen" clause, but it still leaves it open. Absent any concrete proof about what the Founders meant, it would need to go thru the courts. Before you pull the "I'm a lawyer and you're not" crap again, remember that lawyers like yourself, certainly more experienced and intelligent than you, would be arguing the merits of this hypothetical case on both sides; one side claiming that this hypothetical situation would have satisfied the Founders, the other side claiming a Natural Born Citizen can be nothing other than one who obtains citizenship at birth.

 

So, to recap, you cannot claim Obama would be eligible for the Presidency even if he had been born abroad, any more than I can claim he would not be eligible. We'll call it a draw.

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

Don't call it a draw. You both lose, along with the rest of us.

[MDC 7,650]

If Obummer was actually a robot he could not be president!

[IGotWorms 4,060]

By the way, Worms, this is the federal statute I was talking about, right from the State Department website, which you claim you never heard of:

 

 

http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-child-born-abroad.html

 

So, if Obama had been born abroad, he could not have been a US citizen at birth. Yes, I agree, this does not answer whether he would've been eligible for the Presidency under the "Natural Born Citizen" clause, but it still leaves it open. Absent any concrete proof about what the Founders meant, it would need to go thru the courts. Before you pull the "I'm a lawyer and you're not" crap again, remember that lawyers like yourself, certainly more experienced and intelligent than you, would be arguing the merits of this hypothetical case on both sides; one side claiming that this hypothetical situation would have satisfied the Founders, the other side claiming a Natural Born Citizen can be nothing other than one who obtains citizenship at birth.

 

So, to recap, you cannot claim Obama would be eligible for the Presidency even if he had been born abroad, any more than I can claim he would not be eligible. We'll call it a draw.

My god, you've barely understood a word I've said

[IGotWorms 4,060]

BTW you are right that different arguments could be presented. However one such argument could *not* be that Article II of the Constitution meant one thing in 1952 and then magically changed meaning when Congress amended an unrelated statute in 1986, which is the entire premise of your bullsh1t birthtard argument

[hoytdwow 202]

Cruz is just another Eastern intellectual elitist out of touch with real Americans. Princeton, Harvard. Canada.

[Thornton Melon 639]

BTW you are right that different arguments could be presented. However one such argument could *not* be that Article II of the Constitution meant one thing in 1952 and then magically changed meaning when Congress amended an unrelated statute in 1986, which is the entire premise of your bullsh1t birthtard argument

 

Noted, although I'll point out, (not that this is justification for relying on the INA to resolve the issue), but the un-Constitutionality of using the INA to determine eligibility is nowhere near as egregious as the way the enumerated powers and 10th Amendment have been obliterated over time (by both Democrats and Republicans, and the courts).

[mayhem39 3]

I find this whole birther stuff just ridiculous. What is an american? I'm an american because I was born here. In other words I did absolutely nothing to become an "american". Too much emphasis put on terms like this, especially from the right. Conservatives, GOP, right wing, whatever term people want to use stand behind stuff like "american", the "american flag", and "god bless america" as if they really meant something when in actuality all they are is a human being, a piece of colored cloth, and a song.