Fantasy Football Sites Being Shut down?

[Theyhateme459 0]

This was posted on another forum from an administrator of that Fantasy Football Website.

 

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Well, it is happening, the NFLPA is starting to systematically shutdown fantasy league sites that do not have an NFLPA license. To boot, only 5 licenses will be granted.

 

In light of this and to avoid a lawsuit, stadium.com has been shutdown. NOW, before everyone starts screaming, if you go to stadium.com you will be redirected to XpertSports.com. You should be able to sign in with your username and get access to your leagues. We are working to make sure this works correctly.

 

Again, we apologize but this came out of the blue today. PLEASE, let me know if you have any issues. I will do all I can to get things fixed as quickly as possible.

 

Thank you

 

Do you know who the 5 sites are that are getting these licenses?

 

From what I have heard FanBall got one. I am guessing the others would be CBS, ESPN, Fox and Yahoo. Just a guess at this stage. Some may operate without a license but the could be steep penalties. Not sure right now.

 

here is a link to a list list of all the NFLPA Licensees for Fantasy Football

 

http://www.nflplayers.com/licensing/licensees.aspx#Fantasy

 

I have asked the folks at MFL about this and we will see what happens.

Good question would be though, I dont see xpertsports.com on the list, so how long before they are gone as well?

 

OR is it a political thing and Ryan speaking out on National TV about it PISSED them off???

 

MAybe it is something minor, I really do hope so. I've seen this debated on Outside The lines earlier this season, and I think it will be a horrible move for the NFLPA if they start shutting down sites and charging $$$$$ for the use of their stats. I really believe it would hurt them because it is the Fantasy Fans who are giving the NFL websites all their traffic, it is the fantasy fans who are ordering sunday ticket, it is the fantasy fans buying all their magazines, so to try and pass on cost to us for playing would be the worst move the NFLPA could make IMO. But hopefully it is nothing, but I do know that stadium.com did get shut down in the middle of the season, so it seems to be reliable information. I guess we just wait an see.

[nflocd 0]

holy crap and a half - if there's any truth to this story then

i will take a big dump on the nfl and never look back

[Mel Kiper 0]

They don't own the stats! Don't worry

[Wildman 0]

I found this...Source

 

Long, but will tell you probably even more than you want to know...

 

 

The Future of Fantasy Sports

 

FUTURE OF FANTASY SPORTS

 

Many of you have heard about the shake down in fantasy baseball with the MLB attempting to control the industry. There have been other posts about this topic but let me summarize the current arguments that are being discussed in the landmark case CDM Distribution & Marketing v. MLB Advanced Media and the onslaught of legal questions that are bound to be circulating.

 

The case that has been referred to as being the silver bullet for the right to use statistics is: NBA v. Motorola and STATS, Inc.

 

http://legal.web.aol.com/decisions/dldecen/nbadec.html

 

I can write 10 pages about this case but here it is in a nutshell.

 

Prior to March 1996 Motorola, Inc. had a service called SPORTSTRAX that provided real time statistics of NBA games to pagers. STATS, Inc. was the provider of this information. NBA sued for copyright infringement for the publishing of player statistics. At first the NBA won only on the rights to REAL-TIME stats but that decision was later overturned in a federal Appellate court ruling that displaying the raw stats was not a re-representation of the game.

 

Copyright Infringment or Publicity Rights?

 

As most already know, CDM Sports has filed a lawsuit against the MLB for the right to use statistics without a license. But I have been amazed that in actuality the case has very little to do with the rights to stats.

 

MLB has painted themselves into a corner. They KNEW they couldn't win on the rights to raw data. They are very well aware of the case law that exists. From the second the suit was filed the MLB agreed with CDM that statistics are in the public domain. However, it is the Players' Names that violate publicity rights. A bold move to put all of your eggs in one basket. This is quite a little twist because copyrights are protected by federal law while publicity rights are different for each state. We'll see how that plays out.

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"It's about the commercial exploitation of players' names or likenesses," said Bob Bowman, MLB Advanced Media chief executive. "It's one thing to say here's the box score from the game; it's another thing to say we've created a separate thing called fantasy baseball. We're no longer reporting the facts; we've now created a game."

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

MLB figures that it doesn't matter if they win on stats because if they win on player names then the games still can't be played without a license... (or can they).

 

John Hunt (USA Today) brought up a good point:

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Of course, a company might, say, allow customers to fill their rosters not with "Johan Santana" but with "Minnesota 57." Where should the line be drawn, if at all?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Of course every company wants to use the player names but if the CDM case was lost, would you rather have a player reference on your site or pay a licensing fee and a percentage of gross? (remember this applies to the NFL Players Association too which typically takes between 10-15% gross plus a $20k minimum.)

 

Let's go a step further, shall we? What if a single trusted entity like the Fantasy Sports Trade Association (FSTA) created a master player list of the 4 major sports and their corresponding references? A list of standards that the entire fantasy community could use for free.

 

Again, this is only assuming CDM loses the case which I don't think will happen. But consider it a Plan B.

 

We know what the fans want!

 

Listen, this entire thing is about the greed of MLB. This has nothing to do with the fans. CDM's lawyer, Rudy Telscher said "the MLB already suffers from the image that it's too greedy." He believes it is trying to monopolize the fantasy market. The Internet and fantasy games have revived the baseball industry, and now MLB just wants a bigger piece of the pie.

 

"Now that [fantasy baseball] has become so popular, MLB looks at the revenue and says, 'We want to exclusively control it,'" Telscher said.

 

Let's take a look at some of the nonesense that has been spewing out of the MLB Advanced Media (MLBAM).

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"All of the [players associations] across the major sports have generally held that the commercial use of player names without a license is an infringement of their rights," Bowman said.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

My View: Everyone else is doing it, so that makes it ok. Well hell, the Mafia has been around for over a hundred years. I guess that is ok too.

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bowman says there's only one goal: "We want more fans playing more fantasy baseball."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

My View: Let's start by limiting the number of companies, and forcing those who created the darn industry to go out of business, especially one that had 35,000 customers last year.

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"We are especially pleased that every fantasy game licensee from last year, with only one exception, will be part of the 2005 fantasy game licensing program," said George Kliavkoff, senior vice president of business development for MLBAM.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

My View: Interesting how they suddenly award licenses now that they are being sued, thereby trying to isolate CDM from the rest of the fantasy community. In essence they can now say... "see, all of these other companies don't have a problem with our license."

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"To say we need to stay with the status quo is unacceptable," Bowman said. "The core fantasy players, we want them to keep playing, of course. But what else can we do to make this more accessible and more entertaining for a much broader fan base? That's what we're trying to find out."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

My View: So you have no clue what the fans want, do you? You just said you are "trying to find out". All you really know is that whatever it is they want, you want your cut.

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bowman believes that what's needed is innovation, such as fantasy games where players get online video highlights and news updates via cell phone about their rosters.

And it's not uncommon for sports leagues to thin out the ranks of its licensees, such as when the NFL let Reebok handle sales for all its game jerseys and Electronic Arts handle its video games. Says Bowman, "It appears that licensors think they can create a bigger business by concentrating licensees."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

My View: Let me get this straight...You woke up one morning with the divine vision that what the fans want are video highlights and cell phone updates and instead of just creating those features and finding out if the fans actually do want it, you dictate to the entire industry that they have no choice but to license this crap from you or go out of business. And of course, at first, the licenses weren't even offered. You see, the first deal on the table was, "Give us all of your customers that you've accumulated over the years and we'll give you the privilege of taking a 10% finders fee." So when CDM's lawsuit in essence says, "F**k You, you arrogant a**hole!", you then turn around and award everyone licenses and pretend you were going to do it all along.

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If you're more than 5,000 (customers), we want to have a conversation and understand your marketing commitment," Bowman said. The Sports Business Journal reported that MLB was seeking about $3-million each from its largest fantasy partners in this new agreement. Negociations start at $2 per customerif you want to sell your customer base to them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

My View: --Translation-- If you don't have over 5000 customers, you aren't worth our time and don't deserve to be in business. We will LET you sell your customers to us but we won't let you continue to operate your puny business.

 

You're right Bowman... it's not about the money... it's all about the fans.

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim Gallagher, senior vice president, corporate communications for MLB Advance Media, said that baseball officials are not claiming exclusive rights to player statistics. But if a company is trying to use those statistics as a means of financial gain, he said, then MLB has a legal right to demand a license for their use.

 

"Player statistics are in the public domain. We've never disputed that," Gallagher said. "But if you're going to use statistics in a game for profit, you need a license from us to do that. We own those statistics when they're used for commercial gain."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

My View: OH MY GOD, SOMEONE TACKLE THIS GUY!

This is the Senior Vice President and doesn't know what the heck he is saying. First he says that player statistics are in the public domain. BUT, if you are making money THEN "we own those statistics". Are you f**king kidding me? If that is not the most backwards load of garbage I've ever heard. So, if you're making money, they own the stats. If you're not, they are public domain.

 

If I were the MLBAM lawyers, I'd be begging these guys not to say ANYTHING!

 

OK, I've gone on enough. It is making me sick, so let's get to the actual legal issues here.

 

As reported by Tresa Baldas of The National Law Journal:

 

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Intellectual Property litigator Kent Goss, who represents athletes with regard to their rights of publicity, believes that MLB will have a tough time convincing a court that player statistics warrant copyright protection. He said that the test will be weighing MLB's copyrights and the publicity rights of players against what the public wants.

 

"The public is fascinated with sports, and in particular baseball. Essentially, they can't get enough of stats," Goss said. "I think the courts are going to want to protect the fans' rights to use the stuff."

 

Goss, a partner in Pillsbury Winthrop's Los Angeles office, cited a 2001 case in which the California Court of Appeal upheld Major League Baseball's right to use historical players' names and statistics. A group of former players sued MLB for printing their names and stats in game programs, claiming their rights to publicity were violated. But the court held that they were historical facts, part of baseball history, and MLB had a right to use them. Gionfriddo v. Major League Baseball, 94 Cal. App. 4th 400 (2001).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

So, the Players even sued MLB for the use of their names and stats and the MLB won since it was historical data. Now CDM is claiming the SAME thing. How much more ironic can it get?

 

THREE FINAL ARGUMENTS

 

If the MLB loses on the rights to stats AND loses on the use of player names violating publicity rights, they can still argue three more positions.

 

1) They can claim that the methods of compiling stats are copyrightable. I can't see this holding up in court because there are several companies that compile stats (Sportsticker, STATS Inc., TQ Stats, and XML Team just to name a few). Even if you need to pay those companies to get the stats, it has nothing to do with an MLBAM license.

 

2) It isn't the fact that a player name is used to reference a statistic. That is generally considered "fair use" and the MLB has already said that they have no issue with it. But they could argue that it is the cumulative list of player names that makes the fantasy game possible. Their argument could be that without the player names, there can be no game and therefore their "property" is the determining factor in a fantasy company's ability to produce a commercial gain. Basically, they may believe that the games could not work without the player names and therefore they are not merely suplemental "information or news" but rather an integral piece to the success of the contest and its ability to generate revenue.

 

Though this is a better argument, I can't see this holding up either. You see, it isn't because of the player names that people play fantasy sports. The competition, the challenge, the bragging rights, and the prizes are the reasons why people play. AND it isn't the player names that create the game either. The interface, the rules, the scoring, and even the presentation and technological process is what "MAKES" the fantasy game. And THAT, the MLB has no right to. It takes a creative effort for each company to produce the end product that the users interact with.

 

3)What about endorsement? MLB could claim that the list of player names is an implied endorsement of the players. This of course is ridiculous but they can argue the point nonetheless. All it would take is for every company to make every customer agree to a "non endorsement" clause. Heck, users already agree to the Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.

 

It would be easy to simply have them click a box saying:

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"I agree that [company name] is not endorsed by the MLB, any individual player, the MLB Players Association, MLB Advanced Media, or any MLB Team. I further understand that a list of player names for the purpose of creating a roster DOES NOT imply endorsement from any of the aforementioned."

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

That solves that one. Takes any possible confusion out of it.

 

I have two more little provoking thoughts:

 

First, when a Las Vegas casino makes a betting line on a fight or game they often use player names. Does that somehow imply endorsement to the casino? Are publicity rights of players or copyrights of those sports organizations being violated? Is it not being used for "commercial gain"? Yet those casinos don't pay a dime. Please explain that one to me MLB.

 

And let us not even get into the fact that newspapers have been displaying stats, pictures (or player likenesses), and player names for decades. Most argue that news outlets are prodected by free speach. True, but is it not also being used for "commercial gain"? Would they sell the exact number of copies if there were no box scores?

 

Second, why is it that in the NFL Players Association group licensing agreement, it states that any company with 6 or more players is a violation of publicity rights and therefore must be licensed. Ok, so 5 players means no violation but 6 players means you owe them thousands of dollars. What kind of moronic b*llsh*t is that? That isn't how the law works. It seems that these giant companies have simply dictated their own RULES that have no backing in law. Just because you SAY something doesn't mean it is legal. EVEN if the players agree to it doesn't mean it's legal. There is either copyright infringement or there isn't. You can't say that 5 players is ok but 6 means you're screwed. Why 6? Why not 4? Why not 50?

 

What the MLBAM and the NFLPA don't realize is that they are going to make their money from the big 3 companies (Yahoo, ESPN, and Sportsline) REGARDLESS. THERE IS VALUE in being the "officially licensed" game of the MLB. The CDM case will have little or no bearing on the licensing agreement of those companies. They are going to pay to be endorsed!

 

If they were even half as smart as the common tree stump, they would pour millions into out-marketing everyone else. Get the players endorsing their games saying:

 

"If you aren't playing an officially licensed game, then you aren't playing fantasy baseball."

 

or

 

"MLB.com, the ONLY place that the players endorse."

 

The idiots don't need to force licensing or limit competition to win in this industry. It is amazing that with all of the money they have and important people they hire, they fail in the most fundamental marketing and business concepts.

 

Sincerely,

 

Devoted Fantasy Football Fan

 

[Edited on 3/12/2005 by fantasysportsfan]

 

[Edited on 3/12/2005 by fantasysportsfan]

[Mile High Drunk 13]

I found this...Source

 

Long, but will tell you probably even more than you want to know...

 

 

The Future of Fantasy Sports

 

FUTURE OF FANTASY SPORTS

 

Many of you have heard about the shake down in fantasy baseball with the MLB attempting to control the industry. There have been other posts about this topic but let me summarize the current arguments that are being discussed in the landmark case CDM Distribution & Marketing v. MLB Advanced Media and the onslaught of legal questions that are bound to be circulating.

 

The case that has been referred to as being the silver bullet for the right to use statistics is: NBA v. Motorola and STATS, Inc.

 

http://legal.web.aol.com/decisions/dldecen/nbadec.html

 

I can write 10 pages about this case but here it is in a nutshell.

 

Prior to March 1996 Motorola, Inc. had a service called SPORTSTRAX that provided real time statistics of NBA games to pagers. STATS, Inc. was the provider of this information. NBA sued for copyright infringement for the publishing of player statistics. At first the NBA won only on the rights to REAL-TIME stats but that decision was later overturned in a federal Appellate court ruling that displaying the raw stats was not a re-representation of the game.

 

Copyright Infringment or Publicity Rights?

 

As most already know, CDM Sports has filed a lawsuit against the MLB for the right to use statistics without a license. But I have been amazed that in actuality the case has very little to do with the rights to stats.

 

MLB has painted themselves into a corner. They KNEW they couldn't win on the rights to raw data. They are very well aware of the case law that exists. From the second the suit was filed the MLB agreed with CDM that statistics are in the public domain. However, it is the Players' Names that violate publicity rights. A bold move to put all of your eggs in one basket. This is quite a little twist because copyrights are protected by federal law while publicity rights are different for each state. We'll see how that plays out.

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"It's about the commercial exploitation of players' names or likenesses," said Bob Bowman, MLB Advanced Media chief executive. "It's one thing to say here's the box score from the game; it's another thing to say we've created a separate thing called fantasy baseball. We're no longer reporting the facts; we've now created a game."

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

MLB figures that it doesn't matter if they win on stats because if they win on player names then the games still can't be played without a license... (or can they).

 

John Hunt (USA Today) brought up a good point:

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Of course, a company might, say, allow customers to fill their rosters not with "Johan Santana" but with "Minnesota 57." Where should the line be drawn, if at all?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Of course every company wants to use the player names but if the CDM case was lost, would you rather have a player reference on your site or pay a licensing fee and a percentage of gross? (remember this applies to the NFL Players Association too which typically takes between 10-15% gross plus a $20k minimum.)

 

Let's go a step further, shall we? What if a single trusted entity like the Fantasy Sports Trade Association (FSTA) created a master player list of the 4 major sports and their corresponding references? A list of standards that the entire fantasy community could use for free.

 

Again, this is only assuming CDM loses the case which I don't think will happen. But consider it a Plan B.

 

We know what the fans want!

 

Listen, this entire thing is about the greed of MLB. This has nothing to do with the fans. CDM's lawyer, Rudy Telscher said "the MLB already suffers from the image that it's too greedy." He believes it is trying to monopolize the fantasy market. The Internet and fantasy games have revived the baseball industry, and now MLB just wants a bigger piece of the pie.

 

"Now that [fantasy baseball] has become so popular, MLB looks at the revenue and says, 'We want to exclusively control it,'" Telscher said.

 

Let's take a look at some of the nonesense that has been spewing out of the MLB Advanced Media (MLBAM).

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"All of the [players associations] across the major sports have generally held that the commercial use of player names without a license is an infringement of their rights," Bowman said.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

My View: Everyone else is doing it, so that makes it ok. Well hell, the Mafia has been around for over a hundred years. I guess that is ok too.

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bowman says there's only one goal: "We want more fans playing more fantasy baseball."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

My View: Let's start by limiting the number of companies, and forcing those who created the darn industry to go out of business, especially one that had 35,000 customers last year.

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"We are especially pleased that every fantasy game licensee from last year, with only one exception, will be part of the 2005 fantasy game licensing program," said George Kliavkoff, senior vice president of business development for MLBAM.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

My View: Interesting how they suddenly award licenses now that they are being sued, thereby trying to isolate CDM from the rest of the fantasy community. In essence they can now say... "see, all of these other companies don't have a problem with our license."

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"To say we need to stay with the status quo is unacceptable," Bowman said. "The core fantasy players, we want them to keep playing, of course. But what else can we do to make this more accessible and more entertaining for a much broader fan base? That's what we're trying to find out."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

My View: So you have no clue what the fans want, do you? You just said you are "trying to find out". All you really know is that whatever it is they want, you want your cut.

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bowman believes that what's needed is innovation, such as fantasy games where players get online video highlights and news updates via cell phone about their rosters.

And it's not uncommon for sports leagues to thin out the ranks of its licensees, such as when the NFL let Reebok handle sales for all its game jerseys and Electronic Arts handle its video games. Says Bowman, "It appears that licensors think they can create a bigger business by concentrating licensees."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

My View: Let me get this straight...You woke up one morning with the divine vision that what the fans want are video highlights and cell phone updates and instead of just creating those features and finding out if the fans actually do want it, you dictate to the entire industry that they have no choice but to license this crap from you or go out of business. And of course, at first, the licenses weren't even offered. You see, the first deal on the table was, "Give us all of your customers that you've accumulated over the years and we'll give you the privilege of taking a 10% finders fee." So when CDM's lawsuit in essence says, "F**k You, you arrogant a**hole!", you then turn around and award everyone licenses and pretend you were going to do it all along.

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If you're more than 5,000 (customers), we want to have a conversation and understand your marketing commitment," Bowman said. The Sports Business Journal reported that MLB was seeking about $3-million each from its largest fantasy partners in this new agreement. Negociations start at $2 per customerif you want to sell your customer base to them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

My View: --Translation-- If you don't have over 5000 customers, you aren't worth our time and don't deserve to be in business. We will LET you sell your customers to us but we won't let you continue to operate your puny business.

 

You're right Bowman... it's not about the money... it's all about the fans.

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim Gallagher, senior vice president, corporate communications for MLB Advance Media, said that baseball officials are not claiming exclusive rights to player statistics. But if a company is trying to use those statistics as a means of financial gain, he said, then MLB has a legal right to demand a license for their use.

 

"Player statistics are in the public domain. We've never disputed that," Gallagher said. "But if you're going to use statistics in a game for profit, you need a license from us to do that. We own those statistics when they're used for commercial gain."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

My View: OH MY GOD, SOMEONE TACKLE THIS GUY!

This is the Senior Vice President and doesn't know what the heck he is saying. First he says that player statistics are in the public domain. BUT, if you are making money THEN "we own those statistics". Are you f**king kidding me? If that is not the most backwards load of garbage I've ever heard. So, if you're making money, they own the stats. If you're not, they are public domain.

 

If I were the MLBAM lawyers, I'd be begging these guys not to say ANYTHING!

 

OK, I've gone on enough. It is making me sick, so let's get to the actual legal issues here.

 

As reported by Tresa Baldas of The National Law Journal:

 

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Intellectual Property litigator Kent Goss, who represents athletes with regard to their rights of publicity, believes that MLB will have a tough time convincing a court that player statistics warrant copyright protection. He said that the test will be weighing MLB's copyrights and the publicity rights of players against what the public wants.

 

"The public is fascinated with sports, and in particular baseball. Essentially, they can't get enough of stats," Goss said. "I think the courts are going to want to protect the fans' rights to use the stuff."

 

Goss, a partner in Pillsbury Winthrop's Los Angeles office, cited a 2001 case in which the California Court of Appeal upheld Major League Baseball's right to use historical players' names and statistics. A group of former players sued MLB for printing their names and stats in game programs, claiming their rights to publicity were violated. But the court held that they were historical facts, part of baseball history, and MLB had a right to use them. Gionfriddo v. Major League Baseball, 94 Cal. App. 4th 400 (2001).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

So, the Players even sued MLB for the use of their names and stats and the MLB won since it was historical data. Now CDM is claiming the SAME thing. How much more ironic can it get?

 

THREE FINAL ARGUMENTS

 

If the MLB loses on the rights to stats AND loses on the use of player names violating publicity rights, they can still argue three more positions.

 

1) They can claim that the methods of compiling stats are copyrightable. I can't see this holding up in court because there are several companies that compile stats (Sportsticker, STATS Inc., TQ Stats, and XML Team just to name a few). Even if you need to pay those companies to get the stats, it has nothing to do with an MLBAM license.

 

2) It isn't the fact that a player name is used to reference a statistic. That is generally considered "fair use" and the MLB has already said that they have no issue with it. But they could argue that it is the cumulative list of player names that makes the fantasy game possible. Their argument could be that without the player names, there can be no game and therefore their "property" is the determining factor in a fantasy company's ability to produce a commercial gain. Basically, they may believe that the games could not work without the player names and therefore they are not merely suplemental "information or news" but rather an integral piece to the success of the contest and its ability to generate revenue.

 

Though this is a better argument, I can't see this holding up either. You see, it isn't because of the player names that people play fantasy sports. The competition, the challenge, the bragging rights, and the prizes are the reasons why people play. AND it isn't the player names that create the game either. The interface, the rules, the scoring, and even the presentation and technological process is what "MAKES" the fantasy game. And THAT, the MLB has no right to. It takes a creative effort for each company to produce the end product that the users interact with.

 

3)What about endorsement? MLB could claim that the list of player names is an implied endorsement of the players. This of course is ridiculous but they can argue the point nonetheless. All it would take is for every company to make every customer agree to a "non endorsement" clause. Heck, users already agree to the Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.

 

It would be easy to simply have them click a box saying:

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"I agree that [company name] is not endorsed by the MLB, any individual player, the MLB Players Association, MLB Advanced Media, or any MLB Team. I further understand that a list of player names for the purpose of creating a roster DOES NOT imply endorsement from any of the aforementioned."

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

That solves that one. Takes any possible confusion out of it.

 

I have two more little provoking thoughts:

 

First, when a Las Vegas casino makes a betting line on a fight or game they often use player names. Does that somehow imply endorsement to the casino? Are publicity rights of players or copyrights of those sports organizations being violated? Is it not being used for "commercial gain"? Yet those casinos don't pay a dime. Please explain that one to me MLB.

 

And let us not even get into the fact that newspapers have been displaying stats, pictures (or player likenesses), and player names for decades. Most argue that news outlets are prodected by free speach. True, but is it not also being used for "commercial gain"? Would they sell the exact number of copies if there were no box scores?

 

Second, why is it that in the NFL Players Association group licensing agreement, it states that any company with 6 or more players is a violation of publicity rights and therefore must be licensed. Ok, so 5 players means no violation but 6 players means you owe them thousands of dollars. What kind of moronic b*llsh*t is that? That isn't how the law works. It seems that these giant companies have simply dictated their own RULES that have no backing in law. Just because you SAY something doesn't mean it is legal. EVEN if the players agree to it doesn't mean it's legal. There is either copyright infringement or there isn't. You can't say that 5 players is ok but 6 means you're screwed. Why 6? Why not 4? Why not 50?

 

What the MLBAM and the NFLPA don't realize is that they are going to make their money from the big 3 companies (Yahoo, ESPN, and Sportsline) REGARDLESS. THERE IS VALUE in being the "officially licensed" game of the MLB. The CDM case will have little or no bearing on the licensing agreement of those companies. They are going to pay to be endorsed!

 

If they were even half as smart as the common tree stump, they would pour millions into out-marketing everyone else. Get the players endorsing their games saying:

 

"If you aren't playing an officially licensed game, then you aren't playing fantasy baseball."

 

or

 

"MLB.com, the ONLY place that the players endorse."

 

The idiots don't need to force licensing or limit competition to win in this industry. It is amazing that with all of the money they have and important people they hire, they fail in the most fundamental marketing and business concepts.

 

Sincerely,

 

Devoted Fantasy Football Fan

 

[Edited on 3/12/2005 by fantasysportsfan]

 

[Edited on 3/12/2005 by fantasysportsfan]

Cliff Notes

 

 

[Banana 0]

It doesn't seem like they should be able to do this . . .

 

It'll be really interesting to see what happens in court. It would really suck if the NFLPA got their way on this one. They can't honestly try to copywrite stats, can they? Now it's going to be illegal for me to notice that Clinton Portis gained 116 yards and incorperate it into a game? They're not bullying some big corperation this time, they're bullying the fans.

 

There's nothing they could do to stop people from having a fantasy game and saying "QB #7" though, is there? Madden NFL has been doing that for years with players who do not wish to be included in the game like Lavar Arrington.

 

Won't somebody please think of the fans!

[Theyhateme459 0]

I guess the argument is a company can not use player stats foor a financial gain Example MyFantasyLeague.com without being licensed

 

WHO OWNS STATS?

 

But the litigation goes both ways. Plaintiffs claiming copyright infringement have taken several swings at Major League Baseball (MLB) in recent years.

 

Most recently, CDM Fantasy Sports, a fantasy sports games operator, filed a lawsuit on Feb. 7 in St. Louis against MLB Advanced Media, baseball's interactive division, aiming to retain the rights to produce and promote fantasy games without having to get a license from MLB. CDM Distribution & Marketing v. MLB Advanced Media, No. 4:05CV 22MLM (E.D. Mo.). At issue: Who owns player statistics?

 

According to CDM's lawyer, Rudy Telscher, MLB Advanced Media is expected to decrease "significantly" the number of companies offering its officially licensed fantasy games, therefore denying fantasy leagues the right to use information like player statistics without a license.

 

But CDM is challenging MLB's authority to license anybody, Telscher said, and is specifically seeking to use player statistics without MLB's permission. He said CDM doesn't dispute that it needs an MLB license for trademarked products such as team logos. But statistics are in the public domain, like telephone numbers, he argued.

 

"All we need is the player statistics and we believe we have the right to use them because they're public information," said Telscher of Clayton, Mo.'s Harness, Dickey & Pierce. "The Supreme Court has held that mere raw data where creativity is not involved is not something that would be protected by copyrights. ... I don't see how anyone could argue that player names and stats are something that are protected by copyright."

 

Telscher contends that MLB, which, he said, "already suffers from the image that it's too greedy," is trying to monopolize the fantasy market. He said the Internet and fantasy games have revived the baseball industry, and that MLB just wants a bigger piece of the pie.

 

"Now that [fantasy baseball] has become so popular, MLB looks at the revenue and says, 'We want to exclusively control it,'" Telscher said

 

According to the Fantasy Sports Trade Association, more than 10 million people play fantasy football in the United States. Another 6 million play fantasy baseball, spending an average of $175 a year on the game and making fantasy baseball a $1 billion annual business.

 

Attorney Mike Mellis, in-house counsel for MLB Advanced Media, declined to comment on the suit.

 

Jim Gallagher, senior vice president, corporate communications for MLB Advance Media, said that baseball officials are not claiming exclusive rights to player statistics. But if a company is trying to use those statistics as a means of financial gain, he said, then MLB has a legal right to demand a license for their use.

 

"Player statistics are in the public domain. We've never disputed that," Gallagher said. "But if you're going to use statistics in a game for profit, you need a license from us to do that. We own those statistics when they're used for commercial gain."

 

Meanwhile, Telscher believes his case could have wide implications for the fantasy sports industry. "If the courts issue a ruling that player statistics are in the public domain, it's going to have an effect on the whole industry that would mean that nobody would need a license for these games," Telscher said.

 

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1109128216973

[Theyhateme459 0]

I have read about this in the National News Paper and seen it debated on TV, and I just always hoped the NFL & the NFLPA would be smart enough not to mess a good thing up. From what I have read, if they want to require licenses the courts will probably side with the NFLPA... thats what I have gotten from reading and seeing these debates overtime. And If they do, the cost will get handed down to noone but us, and their will be A huge cutdown in fantasy providers.

[Skanker 0]

They don't own the stats! Don't worry

it will be like the music industry trying to regulate the illegal burning of music...not going to happen.

 

[Theyhateme459 0]

The Licensed companies

 

http://www.nflplayers.com/fantasy/main.aspx

[Banana 0]

They don't own the stats! Don't worry       

it will be like the music industry trying to regulate the illegal burning of music...not going to happen.

 

We'll see about that when the next format after CD comes out.

[nflocd 0]

wow, long read

 

So, the Players even sued MLB for the use of their names and stats and the MLB won since it was historical data. Now CDM is claiming the SAME thing. How much more ironic can it get?

 

this looks like the big difference between the NFL and MLB. if you look on the NFLPA licensing site, NFL.com is a licensee of (presumably stats for) fantasy football. Just the opposite of MLB. In any case, if precedent holds from that initial MLB/MLBPA suit, then this thing should be ruled in favor of CDM, and ultimately everyone who feeds off these stats.

[Skanker 0]

They don't own the stats! Don't worry       

it will be like the music industry trying to regulate the illegal burning of music...not going to happen.

 

We'll see about that when the next format after CD comes out.

won't happen

[Banana 0]

This seems like it's something that's gotten out of hand. It's one thing to use a player's name/likeness to endorse a product. It's something else to talk about that player. I don't understand why these players associations think their players are different from other celebrities who are constantly used in tabloids, TV shows like ET and Hollywood Access, and every other type of entertainment product out there. Celebrities are fair game; it's the way it's always been in America, for better or worse. You can even make and entire TV movie about the Pope or some movie star or whatever without their permission and without paying them a cent. The NFLPA requiring player liscences is just not lawful and now it's starting to spill over into more common sense, everyday issues.

[Banana 0]

They don't own the stats! Don't worry       

it will be like the music industry trying to regulate the illegal burning of music...not going to happen.

 

We'll see about that when the next format after CD comes out.

won't happen

Sorry, but you better think again. Videogame companies have essentially stamped out illegal pirate copies of videogames with advanced anti-piracy measures in their disks for the latest generation of systems. This used to be a millions of dollars black market business. This is a situation where the companies have beaten the hackers.

 

There will be a time when the only music you'll be able to get for free is The Beatles and Eminem, no new stuff.

[football_scooter 0]

Wow - you have to be kidding me.

 

 

This is unreal.

 

Mike(s) - I will support the compiler whether licensed or not. Spell the players names phoenetically or mis-spell them on purpose - I'll know who Turrelle Ownenss, WR Phlidifelpia Eegels is.

[Mel Kiper 0]

If this does happen USA =

 

We waste our time with trying to control stats, fantasy sports, ROIDS!! I hope china or japan takes us over. At least then our money would be spent right. Education and technology ................. not stupid crap.

 

Japan + China =

[iamjustanoob 0]

They don't own the stats! Don't worry       

it will be like the music industry trying to regulate the illegal burning of music...not going to happen.

 

We'll see about that when the next format after CD comes out.

won't happen

Sorry, but you better think again. Videogame companies have essentially stamped out illegal pirate copies of videogames with advanced anti-piracy measures in their disks for the latest generation of systems. This used to be a millions of dollars black market business. This is a situation where the companies have beaten the hackers.

 

There will be a time when the only music you'll be able to get for free is The Beatles and Eminem, no new stuff.

Seems that everytime a new technology comes out to prevent individuals from burning or ripping CDs it alwasy fails. It is just a matter of time before someone figures out how to get around it.

 

When there is a will, there is a way. Do not even forget that.

[iamjustanoob 0]

If this does happen USA =   

I hope china or japan takes us over.

This has to be the most moronic statement ever.

[nflocd 0]

Seems that everytime a new technology comes out to prevent individuals from burning or ripping CDs it alwasy fails. It is just a matter of time before someone figures out how to get around it.

 

When there is a will, there is a way. Do not even forget that.

i don' t think that's the point. i think the point is that if the NFLPA declares a 'tax' on our hobby, then it's time to walk away. It's not time to find a way to beat the tax, it's time to just walk away.

[nflocd 0]

If this does happen USA =   

I hope china or japan takes us over.

This has to be the most moronic statement ever.

Dunno the intent of the author, but he likely means that if this comes to pass, the rights of the individual << the rights of corporate interests.

[Banana 0]

They don't own the stats! Don't worry       

it will be like the music industry trying to regulate the illegal burning of music...not going to happen.

 

We'll see about that when the next format after CD comes out.

won't happen

Sorry, but you better think again. Videogame companies have essentially stamped out illegal pirate copies of videogames with advanced anti-piracy measures in their disks for the latest generation of systems. This used to be a millions of dollars black market business. This is a situation where the companies have beaten the hackers.

 

There will be a time when the only music you'll be able to get for free is The Beatles and Eminem, no new stuff.

Seems that everytime a new technology comes out to prevent individuals from burning or ripping CDs it alwasy fails. It is just a matter of time before someone figures out how to get around it.

 

When there is a will, there is a way. Do not even forget that.

Well, we'll see. What you say has definitely been the case for years, but's it's certainly not anymore. It hasn't been for several years. It seems like the videogame companies are really getting serious now and things have shifted. It has been several years now and people have not cracked these disks. It's true that anything can change, and we'll have to see what happens in a few years, but by the same token it's possible that things can change and now the hackers will perpetually be locked out of these disks, unlike how it was before. The pirates do not have the moral upper ground on this one.

 

Ugh, sorry, I won't hijack this thread anymore.

[garyn_76 0]

Outside the Lines did a show about this last month and after watching it, I wondered what the outcome was going to be.

As a team owner we would not be charged. The company that owns the league will be taxed or pay for the services of stats. We as team owners would have to pay to join (for ones such as Yahoo which some are free).

After the show IMO who ever has the better lawers will win.

As the show aired last month I don't remember the fine details, but all I could think of was, "If NFLPA wins, we the fans lose"

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,282]

PLEASE!!!!!

 

do not quote people who attach 86 pages, we dont need to have to scroll thru it 2x

 

ty

 

HTH

[linkstorinks 0]

and yet they keep coming to "us" the taxpayers for funding for new stadiums, funny. Well. if that is the case you can build them yourselves!

[RickA 0]

Don't these people realize that the real money is in television. I would think FF participants make up a significant percentage of the TV audience. I mean if it wasn't for FF, would any of you reallly give a crap about the Cleveland/Houston game this week. If this does pass, all FF's should boycott watching football for a week and see what kind of pressure the networks put on the NFLPA and the league.

[Guest Rock Hard]

Ahhh - dis is ridiculous... but let's face it... de lawyers will win, "franchise" taxes will be imposed, sites will recover the money from us players by increased fees or other means, we'll whine and b*tch and end up paying for it.... and life will go on...

 

Just another day in de system.... gears mesh, cogs turn, and we'll be still playing FF and happy with this nice distraction from the cold realities of life....

[thunderbolts 0]

The bottom line. If you are making money off the NFL, they want their percentage cut.

 

They also have the right NOT to grant you a license and control the material for themselves.

 

This includes....

 

Jerseys & T-Shirts

Films (DVD, VHS, TIVO)

Books

Video & Computer games

NFL logos

Retired uniforms & retired logos

Sport memorabilia

Sports autographs

Photos of games and players and stadiums

 

and yes finally...........fantasy football

 

Sports is a business, not a free game. Sports is a billions dollar business, they are only protecting their business rights.

 

Remember baseball didn't allow radio broadcasting for the first 15 years because they thought radio would take away money at the gate. The NFL blacks out local TV of games (this been upheld in court several times).

 

If you are playing fantasy football for fun and not for profit, then you have nothing to worry about.

 

But if you have an internet fantasy football site making $100 a pop for each team and you have 10,000 teams playing, thats a gross of 1 million dollars. You making money from the NFL. They are going to come after you. Beacuse they come after the small T-Shirt vendor selling un-license logo t-shirts.

 

If you invent the greatest NFL computer game of all time, you are going to also need a license from the NFL if you sell the game for profit. Unless the game has no NFL logos or NFL players or NFL stadiums.

 

This is a serious business. The NFL has a $16 billion dollar, 6 year, TV rights contract with ESPN, ABC, CBS and FOX.

 

Why do you think there is only one professional football league. Like the mafia they eliminated all the competition.

[markf 0]

As far as stats go, I recall reading that the difference between a "live broadcast" of a game's progress and the "reporting" if a game's progress... for legal purposes... is 15 minutes. No link, sorry. But reporting box scores on a website after 15 minutes could not be considered a re-broadcast.

 

Player names, on the otherhand, is a different matter. Expect services to offer up software that will download or offer player stats without names. City and Jersey only.... but allow the user to enter in the names or upload a "player name" list created by a third party. This absolves the original site or company from the licensed name delimma.

[Grind 0]

USA Today has to be liking this. The sales of their Monday and Tuesday papers will increase dramatically, as leagues go back to manual calculation of weekly scores.

 

Fantasy changes:

 

1. Simpler scoring systems, which make it easier to calculate using the box score in the paper.

 

2. Increase traffic for free web hosting business as leagues create their own basic web sites to pass along weekly stats and information.

[LOD01 198]

Our league will just go back to the way we did it back in the early 90's. I kept the spreadsheets. Takes about 30 minutes to input the scores. F them dead square in the azz.

[nolefan 0]

They can't honestly try to copywrite stats, can they?

I do not see how it is any differnet than a newpapper or ESPN reports the stats

[surferskin 30]

talk about biting the hand that feeds ...i watch MANY more games because of FF.

[hezagenius 0]

It is not that difficult to build a macro in Excel to download the relevant stats from NFL.com (assuming that it remains a free site). I have done this already for other purposes and it isn't that difficult. There is no way the NFL can stop people from getting the stats. Why even try. There are too many sources that it will be impossible to monitor everything.

[NewbieJr 541]

I hope the NFL realizes that 90% of the people who get Sunday Ticket, do so because of fantasy football.

 

If they bite the hand that feeds them, it will be a huge mistake.

[Parja 0]

They don't own the stats! Don't worry       

it will be like the music industry trying to regulate the illegal burning of music...not going to happen.

 

We'll see about that when the next format after CD comes out.

won't happen

Sorry, but you better think again. Videogame companies have essentially stamped out illegal pirate copies of videogames with advanced anti-piracy measures in their disks for the latest generation of systems. This used to be a millions of dollars black market business. This is a situation where the companies have beaten the hackers.

 

There will be a time when the only music you'll be able to get for free is The Beatles and Eminem, no new stuff.

Umm, no. Piracy is still going strong and will continue to. It's a simple matter of effort and knowledge. There's far more people working to crack copy protection than there are creating it. Hell, the license authentication thinger that Microsoft came up with for Windows XP was cracked within two days of it being announced.

 

And no, video game companies have not stamped out pirate copies of games. Name a game and I'll have a pirate copy downloaded by tomorrow morning.

[GhostofMeanMachine99 1]

They don't own the stats! Don't worry       

it will be like the music industry trying to regulate the illegal burning of music...not going to happen.

 

 

Exactly. Worst comes to worst, leagues will start their own web pages, and owners will go back to manually doing the score with newspapers.

 

It sucks because it'll shut this site down, and that really does no good for the NFL.

 

If this happens, everyone who plays FF should never buy another product endorsed by the NFLPA ever again.

[thunderbolts 0]

If you are playing fantasy football for fun and not for profit, then you have nothing to worry about.

 

But if you have an internet fantasy football site making $100 a pop for each team and you have 10,000 teams playing, thats a gross of 1 million dollars. You making money from the NFL. They are going to come after you.

 

intellectual property rights

 

This is the bottom line on fantasy football.

 

These internet football sites which make a profit from the NFL (intellectual property rights) will need a license from NFL License Properties. If the site doesn't operate the site in the best interest of the NFL, then the internet site will have its license taken away.

[RLLD 4,164]

I think we sorta saw this coming. The NFL and the NFLPA have observed the prosperity of the FF hobby, and want to cash in on it.

 

Should they continue down this path the FF world will certainly react, and will abandon pay sites if they begin to gouge us the way stadium and apparel prices have.

 

Let them have at it. I for one will happily help the commish tabulate scores manually rather than pay those overpaid little pvssies a red cent. I love watching football, but the bottom line is that if you are an NFL player......you can go fock yourself.......

 

If you wonder just how much more greedy they can be, I assure you it knows no boundary.

[Grove Diesel 0]

If the courts rule that you have to have a license just for the player names, people need to realize that this won't just affect league hosting services. FFToday would probably be affected as well. So would fantasy football magazines. They all make money off of discussing NFL players and their stats.

 

Of course, the NFLPA really could not enforce their policy without running afoul of the law anyway. If they win exclusive rights to license players' names, then anyone that uses the names of players to make money HAS to be sued, otherwise they lose their copyright. I think it could be argued pretty persuasively that ESPN The Magazine and Sports Illustrated make money off of discussing NFL players. In fact, ANY sports magazine that discussed NFL players would have to be sued. Every single sports almanac would have to be sued as well.

 

If the courts rule in favor of the NFLPA and against fans, I would urge all fans to start swamping their Congressmen with letters asking them to investigate the NFL for being a monopoly. They hold no monopoly exemption like MLB does. The fact that the NFL owns NFL Europe and many NFL owners own teams in the AFL only adds to the monopoly argument. If they want to start playing hardball with fans, the fans need to hit back.