Astros pitcher intentionally throws at Bonds

[RLLD 4,230]

So as an analogy of this logic:

 

if person A commits murder, but besides that is a generally nice fellow, it is okay. But if person B commits murder and is an a-hole, he should be hung.

 

 

I am not sure I am ready to shift gears assess murderers, perhaps in another thread? This one is about Bonds being a d!ckhead, not about murder

 

HTH

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

ummm link?

 

 

this is what i was talking about. some people have no clue about what is really happening.

 

MLB banned the use of amphetamines a year after they banned the use of steriods. Some writers and critics cried for MLB to ban them both a couple of years ago. But they did not.

Here is a good document:

http://www.willamette.edu/org/sls/journal/...uscharticle.pdf

In 1983, four current and former players from the Kansas City Royals (Willie

Aikens, Jerry Martin, Vida Blue and Willie Wilson) pleaded guilty to misdemeanor

charges of attempted cocaine possession, and each received a three-month jail sentence

and a fine. In baseball's history, they became the first active MLB players to serve jail

time. Commissioner Kuhn suspended Aikens, Martin, Blue and Wilson from baseball

for a year without pay for illegal use of drugs.

 

You are confusing the addition of drug testing and drug use. Illegal drug use has been banned for quite some time (Steve Howe, anyone?), but there was never a mechanism for testing because the MLBPA never allowed it. Go back to the mid-80's and you will see that owners attempted to insert drug testing clauses into individual player contracts, only to be ruled against in arbitration because those terms needed to be negotiated with the entire Players' Association and not individuals.

[IN$TANT REPAY 11]

Here is a good document:

http://www.willamette.edu/org/sls/journal/...uscharticle.pdf

You are confusing the addition of drug testing and drug use. Illegal drug use has been banned for quite some time (Steve Howe, anyone?), but there was never a mechanism for testing because the MLBPA never allowed it. Go back to the mid-80's and you will see that owners attempted to insert drug testing clauses into individual player contracts, only to be ruled against in arbitration because those terms needed to be negotiated with the entire Players' Association and not individuals.

 

 

What I am trying to tell posters like you is that Amphetamines were legal in MLB from WWII until 2005. Now in 2006, they are not legal. You can be suspended for using them now. You could not be suspended for using them last season. David Wells said in his book that he used amphetamines. He admitted to using a substance that is currently banned by MLB. Willie Mays had a special drink that he sipped on. Dominican players had a special coffee that they kept in the dugout.

 

I am not talking about cocaine. Ofcourse it is not legal to use cocaine...duh!

[George Carlin 1]

I am not talking about cocaine. Ofcourse it is not legal to use cocaine...duh!

 

It was for Steve Howe.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

What I am trying to tell posters like you is that Amphetamines were legal in MLB from WWII until 2005. Now in 2006, they are not legal. You can be suspended for using them now. You could not be suspended for using them last season. David Wells said in his book that he used amphetamines. He admitted to using a substance that is currently banned by MLB. Willie Mays had a special drink that he sipped on. Dominican players had a special coffee that they kept in the dugout.

 

I am not talking about cocaine. Ofcourse it is not legal to use cocaine...duh!

 

Wake up. Illegal drugs (steroids have been illegal in the US for quite some time) have been banned by MLB for quite some time. Same thing with amphetamines. Just because there was no mechanism for testing and the enforcement of the provision was weakened by arbitrators too stupid to see the long term impact, does not make it any less illegal.

 

If you would like to go with the torridjoe defense of "they were illegal, but it was not a crime", I would suggest a different path.

 

Let me give you a different perspective from Gordon Edes of the Boston Globe:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...kedes/04_03_06/

 

What exactly were the rules in MLB about steroid use in the 1990s? I hear a lot of people arguing that what Barry Bonds supposedly did was OK, because steroids weren't against the rules when he apparently did them. I thought steroids were banned in the early 1990s. Is this true?

Ryan Frazer, Claremont, Calif.

 

A: While the federal government identified steroids as an illegal controlled substance in the early '90s and commissioner Fay Vincent sent a letter to all clubs in 1991 stipulating that steroid use was banned in baseball, it wasn't until late in 2002 that baseball agreed to a steroid-testing policy, negotiated between the players and owners as part of the collective bargaining agreement. That agreement was widely ridiculed by critics as hopelessly weak -- most players were tested just once, and the tests were anonymous, so no penalties could be imposed on any players that tested positive.

[IN$TANT REPAY 11]

Illegal drugs (steroids have been illegal in the US for quite some time) have been banned by MLB for quite some time. Same thing with amphetamines.

 

you do not know what the heck you are talking about!

 

i hope that you are a better expert on birth control than MLB's amphetamines policy.

 

have a good day...

[George Carlin 1]

Wake up. Illegal drugs (steroids have been illegal in the US for quite some time) have been banned by MLB for quite some time. Same thing with amphetamines. Just because there was no mechanism for testing and the enforcement of the provision was weakened by arbitrators too stupid to see the long term impact, does not make it any less illegal.

 

If you would like to go with the torridjoe defense of "they were illegal, but it was not a crime", I would suggest a different path.

 

Let me give you a different perspective from Gordon Edes of the Boston Globe:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...kedes/04_03_06/

 

Driving without a license is illegal, but millions do it everyday.... perhaps congress needs to get involved....

 

Steroids hurts one person, the person that takes it... Driving without a license or drunk, could injure a lot more... yet no one cares. Why is this? Because they aren't going for a record in baseball.

[RLLD 4,230]

being in this country illegally is not a crime

[surferskin 30]

steriod use is a status, not a crime.

[t.j 35]

i guess you really are as dumb as everyone says.

 

you really can't see the similarity between the 2 arguments?

 

Oh, he's every bit as dumb as you can possibly imagine...

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

you do not know what the heck you are talking about!

 

i hope that you are a better expert on birth control than MLB's amphetamines policy.

 

have a good day...

You wanted a link, so I gave you two. You are worse than torrid the other day in that you can't admit that you are wrong.

 

How about another one (from Fay Vincent to all teams in 1991):

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/for...memo=1991&num=1

 

Page 2 explicitly denotes that

... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids...

 

How about this one (from 1997 to all teams):

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/for...memo=1997&num=1

 

Again note page 2 for the same clarification of steroids as an illegal drug.

 

If you want to have a realistic debate, fine. If you want to keep your head in the sand that these players (and I am not singling out Bonds here) knew what they were doing was prohibited by baseball and that they would probably not get caught, then you are naive.

 

As far as Amphetamines go, they were deemed illegal in the US in 1965. http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/amp01.htm

 

Still want to debate the issue?

[George Carlin 1]

You wanted a link, so I gave you two. You are worse than torrid the other day in that you can't admit that you are wrong.

 

How about another one (from Fay Vincent to all teams in 1991):

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/for...memo=1991&num=1

 

Page 2 explicitly denotes that

How about this one (from 1997 to all teams):

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/for...memo=1997&num=1

 

Again note page 2 for the same clarification of steroids as an illegal drug.

 

If you want to have a realistic debate, fine. If you want to keep your head in the sand that these players (and I am not singling out Bonds here) knew what they were doing was prohibited by baseball and that they would probably not get caught, then you are naive.

 

As far as Amphetamines go, they were deemed illegal in the US in 1965. http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/amp01.htm

 

Still want to debate the issue?

 

You know what's hilarious about this?

 

You get what? a slap on the wrist if you test positive for drugs, but a 50 game suspension if you test positive for Steroids. or if you're steve howe, you can test positive for cocaine 8 times and still not be banned for life. Oh MLB, you sure do have your sh!t together. Way to let them kids know, it's ok to snort coke, but DON'T DO STEROIDS!!

 

 

If all these records hadn't been broken, or about to be broken, no one would give a fock about steroids. Can't any of you see how focked up that is?

[IN$TANT REPAY 11]

You know what's hilarious about this?

 

You get what? a slap on the wrist if you test positive for drugs, but a 50 game suspension if you test positive for Steroids. or if you're steve howe, you can test positive for cocaine 8 times and still not be banned for life. Oh MLB, you sure do have your sh!t together. Way to let them kids know, it's ok to snort coke, but DON'T DO STEROIDS!!

If all these records hadn't been broken, or about to be broken, no one would give a fock about steroids. Can't any of you see how focked up that is?

 

 

someone gets it....

 

[NewbieJr 541]

someone gets it....

 

Cocaine(or marijuana) is detrimental to performance. Ask Daryl Strawberry, Steve Howe, Dwight Gooden.

Steroids give an unfair advantage.(see 73, 70,66 home runs)

This isn't really that hard to figure out, is it?

[RLLD 4,230]

Cocaine(or marijuana) is detrimental to performance. Ask Daryl Strawberry, Steve Howe, Dwight Gooden.

Steroids give an unfair advantage.(see 73, 70,66 home runs)

This isn't really that hard to figure out, is it?

 

Damb you and your logic......

[George Carlin 1]

Cocaine(or marijuana) is detrimental to performance. Ask Daryl Strawberry, Steve Howe, Dwight Gooden.

Steroids give an unfair advantage.(see 73, 70,66 home runs)

This isn't really that hard to figure out, is it?

 

Oh my god.

 

So as a society, hitting more home runs matters more than snorting cocaine? BWahAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[IN$TANT REPAY 11]

Cocaine(or marijuana) is detrimental to performance. Ask Daryl Strawberry, Steve Howe, Dwight Gooden.

Steroids give an unfair advantage.(see 73, 70,66 home runs)

This isn't really that hard to figure out, is it?

 

so when have giambi, palmiero, lawton, sanchez or sheffield hit 73, 70 or 66 home runs in season?

 

 

 

Oh my god.

 

So as a society, hitting more home runs matters more than snorting cocaine? BWahAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

 

take it easy on them...

 

[NewbieJr 541]

Oh my god.

 

So as a society, hitting more home runs matters more than snorting cocaine? BWahAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh, you're talking about society?

No, then cocaine is a more serious offense.

 

I thought we were talking about baseball.

My bad.

[IN$TANT REPAY 11]

You wanted a link, so I gave you two. You are worse than torrid the other day in that you can't admit that you are wrong.

 

How about another one (from Fay Vincent to all teams in 1991):

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/for...memo=1991&num=1

 

Page 2 explicitly denotes that

How about this one (from 1997 to all teams):

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/for...memo=1997&num=1

 

Again note page 2 for the same clarification of steroids as an illegal drug.

 

If you want to have a realistic debate, fine. If you want to keep your head in the sand that these players (and I am not singling out Bonds here) knew what they were doing was prohibited by baseball and that they would probably not get caught, then you are naive.

 

As far as Amphetamines go, they were deemed illegal in the US in 1965. http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/amp01.htm

 

Still want to debate the issue?

 

yawn.....

 

please tell me why should i admit that i am wrong?

 

did you know that MLB players said that the way to get around the current amphetamine ban is to have your doctor diagnose you with ADD. then you can get a prescription for amphetamines.

 

like i said, you do not know the half of it.....

[RLLD 4,230]

Oh, you're talking about society?

No, then cocaine is a more serious offense.

 

I thought we were talking about baseball.

My bad.

 

I can start a thread on society and drug use....

[NewbieJr 541]

I can start a thread on society and drug use....

As someone who has done both, I consider my cocaine use to be much worse for me.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

yawn.....

 

please tell me why should i admit that i am wrong?

 

did you know that MLB players said that the way to get around the current amphetamine ban is to have your doctor diagnose you with ADD. then you can get a prescription for amphetamines.

 

like i said, you do not know the half of it.....

 

Top 10 signs that you have taken the wrong side of a debate on FFToday:

10. You use the KKK-defense of racism, by saying that someone is not racist if they have a friend in high school who was the other race

9. You deny that Barry Bonds was an adulterer by saying that “she cheated on him”

8. Your proof of said infidelity is actually an article about Bonds pushing his wife around

7. You believe that birth control pills are required right before you have sex

6. You discard all references to Bonds use of steroids as a vendetta against a black man when those references come from a book that also implicates a white man (Giambi)

5. You state that steroids were not banned by MLB until 2003, but dismiss multiple MLB internal memos that show they were banned dozens of years before

4. You state that amphetamines have been legal in baseball since WWII and yet dismiss proof that amphetamines have been illegal in the US since 1965

3. You attempt to cloud the fact that Bonds used steroids by saying that they are not nearly as bad as amphetamines

2. Your best comeback to mountains of facts and links against your argument is the term, “yawn”

1. Your biggest advocate in the debate is edjr/George Carlin

[NewbieJr 541]

Top 10 signs that you have taken the wrong side of a debate on FFToday:

10. You use the KKK-defense of racism, by saying that someone is not racist if they have a friend in high school who was the other race

9. You deny that Barry Bonds was an adulterer by saying that “she cheated on him”

8. Your proof of said infidelity is actually an article about Bonds pushing his wife around

7. You believe that birth control pills are required right before you have sex

6. You discard all references to Bonds use of steroids as a vendetta against a black man when those references come from a book that also implicates a white man (Giambi)

5. You state that steroids were not banned by MLB until 2003, but dismiss multiple MLB internal memos that show they were banned dozens of years before

4. You state that amphetamines have been legal in baseball since WWII and yet dismiss proof that amphetamines have been illegal in the US since 1965

3. You attempt to cloud the fact that Bonds used steroids by saying that they are not nearly as bad as amphetamines

2. Your best comeback to mountains of facts and links against your argument is the term, “yawn”

1. Your biggest advocate in the debate is edjr/George Carlin

Never a good sign.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Never a good sign.

 

That is why it was #1. I had to shorten the list to keep it to ten.

[RLLD 4,230]

Never a good sign.

 

[KSB2424 3,148]

I've got a few questions.

 

1. Why hasn't Bonds, Canseco, Mac, Giambi, Sheff been prosecuted by the law? If of course it is "proven" that they are steroid users.

 

2. If steroids / greenies ect. were a banned substance, then why did it take MLB until 2003 to test for it and officially ban someone for it.

 

3. If steriods reared its ugly head in 98' then why did MLB not test then? Why wait until Bonds?

 

4. If you break a rule/law and you are a good guy is it Okay?

[George Carlin 1]

That is why it was #1. I had to shorten the list to keep it to ten.

 

you mothafockah! Well played.

 

 

I am not denying Bonds' steroid use. What I want to know is, why MLB cares more about steroid use than cocaine use (or any other drug)

 

Oh, well, the children have to know steroids are bad for you.

 

It's ok to do cocaine though, you can get suspended for it 8 times and STILL keep your job. That's a great message for the kids.

[RLLD 4,230]

1. Why hasn't Bonds, Canseco, Mac, Giambi, Sheff been prosecuted by the law? If of course it is "proven" that they are steroid users. i dont know, nor do I really care

 

2. If steroids / greenies ect. were a banned substance, then why did it take MLB until 2003 to test for it and officially ban someone for it. I dont know, or care

 

3. If steriods reared its ugly head in 98' then why did MLB not test then? Why wait until Bonds? Doesnt it have something to do with BALCO and Canceco's book? I think so, if Bonds werent playing I doubt anyone would care. But since he is playing, and is a complete d!ck, I say lets roast him

 

4. If you break a rule/law and you are a good guy is it Okay? Prolly not ok per se, but you are less likely to get roasted

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

I've got a few questions.

 

1. Why hasn't Bonds, Canseco, Mac, Giambi, Sheff been prosecuted by the law? If of course it is "proven" that they are steroid users.

 

2. If steroids / greenies ect. were a banned substance, then why did it take MLB until 2003 to test for it and officially ban someone for it.

 

3. If steriods reared its ugly head in 98' then why did MLB not test then? Why wait until Bonds?

 

4. If you break a rule/law and you are a good guy is it Okay?

 

Let me take a stab

1. There is a different burden of proof for criminal prosecution. If a person (like Canseco) were to admit to using steroids in an article, they would have a hard time proving it because that is not testimony and I doubt that Canseco would testify against himself. With respect to Bonds et al, I believe that they were given immunity against prosecution on drug charges (but not perjury)

 

2. Read the article that I put out there which describes the history. Testing and punishment needs to either be negotiated in the Collective Bargaining Agreement (which is was in 2002) or it is subject to review by an arbitrator. Back in 1980, the first such case to go before the arbitrator (Ferguson Jenkins) went heavily in favor of the players, which put the league in a position where they could do very little without the players association agreeing.

 

3. See the answer for number 2. Testing and punishment falls into the same problem with MLB.

 

4. Nope. I consider Giambi as a cheater. Same with Palmeiro. Same with Sheffield. There are some other guys that I suspect of it, but there is not nearly the mountain of evidence against them, so I keep that sort of thing in my own mind.

[IN$TANT REPAY 11]

Top 10 signs that you have taken the wrong side of a debate on FFToday:

10. You use the KKK-defense of racism, by saying that someone is not racist if they have a friend in high school who was the other race

9. You deny that Barry Bonds was an adulterer by saying that “she cheated on him”

8. Your proof of said infidelity is actually an article about Bonds pushing his wife around

7. You believe that birth control pills are required right before you have sex

6. You discard all references to Bonds use of steroids as a vendetta against a black man when those references come from a book that also implicates a white man (Giambi)

5. You state that steroids were not banned by MLB until 2003, but dismiss multiple MLB internal memos that show they were banned dozens of years before

4. You state that amphetamines have been legal in baseball since WWII and yet dismiss proof that amphetamines have been illegal in the US since 1965

3. You attempt to cloud the fact that Bonds used steroids by saying that they are not nearly as bad as amphetamines

2. Your best comeback to mountains of facts and links against your argument is the term, “yawn”

1. Your biggest advocate in the debate is edjr/George Carlin

 

It is obvious that you are challenged in the comprehension department. there are soo many misquotes of what i wrote and the stance that I have on the whole subject that it is laughable.

 

I would rather spend the rest of my luch break monitorig cole hammels.....

 

1. GC and I agree that posters like you do not make sense.

 

2. If that was a mountain of facts and links against my argument, then you must love A-cups.

 

3. Huh? Please tell me, when did I "say that steriods are not nearly as bad as amphetamines?"

 

4. You do not know the history of baseball.

 

5. I simply said that roids were oficially banned by MLB before amphetamines.

 

6. Did you know that there are white people in the media and general public who feel that way? Shocking isn't it?

 

7. Never said, that never thought that. BTW...you would make a horrible comedian and columnist.

 

8. I used that article to support my arguement of Bonds' suspicion only. you got other things out of it...good for you tiger.

 

9. And Babe Ruth cheated on his wife too, so what?

 

10. No, I am saying that Barry Bonds is not a racist. But he is anti-social.

 

 

I've got a few questions.

 

1. Why hasn't Bonds, Canseco, Mac, Giambi, Sheff been prosecuted by the law? If of course it is "proven" that they are steroid users.

 

2. If steroids / greenies ect. were a banned substance, then why did it take MLB until 2003 to test for it and officially ban someone for it.

 

3. If steriods reared its ugly head in 98' then why did MLB not test then? Why wait until Bonds?

 

4. If you break a rule/law and you are a good guy is it Okay?

 

1. Because they are not about to pass an old fat drunk's record.

 

2. Because Barry is about to pass an old fat drunk's record.

 

3. Steroids were around long before 98. But he is about to pass an old famous fat drunk's record.

 

4. Yes, if you are a fat drunk.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

I would rather spend the rest of my luch break monitorig cole hammels.....

 

 

Certainly explains a lot of things.

[hoytdwow 202]

It is illegal to possess/take steroids without a prescription. It doesn't matter if they are "banned substances" or not. Same with amphetamines. If you get caught with these substances, you'll be seeing a judge.

MLB never had a comprehensive "ban" or testing progam in place until recently because the Players' Union wouldn't allow them to be included in the Collective Bargaining Agreements. Public furor has finally caused them to cave.

 

Barry Bonds took steroids and HGH. If you don't believe he did, then all of this arguing is pointless. Gaining muscle mass and weight naturally do not cause your cranium to expand. There are mountains of anecdotal, statistical, and visual evidence for his drug use. He lied to a Federal Grand Jury about it. Therefore he is a criminal and a cheater. Read "Game of Shadows." And don't give me this Liberal Media Bias crap either.

 

All the other players mentioned here got caught and served their penalties. They are not relevant to a Bonds discussion.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

It is illegal to possess/take steroids without a prescription. It doesn't matter if they are "banned substances" or not. Same with amphetamines. If you get caught with these substances, you'll be seeing a judge.

MLB never had a comprehensive "ban" or testing progam in place until recently because the Players' Union wouldn't allow them to be included in the Collective Bargaining Agreements. Public furor has finally caused them to cave.

 

Barry Bonds took steroids and HGH. If you don't believe he did, then all of this arguing is pointless. Gaining muscle mass and weight naturally do not cause your cranium to expand. There are mountains of anecdotal, statistical, and visual evidence for his drug use. He lied to a Federal Grand Jury about it. Therefore he is a criminal and a cheater. Read "Game of Shadows." And don't give me this Liberal Media Bias crap either.

 

racist !

[IN$TANT REPAY 11]

 

Certainly explains a lot of things.

 

 

i will be back A-cup boy...

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

i will be back A-cup boy...

 

I don't want you to miss your lunch break. The fries will burn.

[KSB2424 3,148]

It is illegal to possess/take steroids without a prescription. It doesn't matter if they are "banned substances" or not. Same with amphetamines. If you get caught with these substances, you'll be seeing a judge.

MLB never had a comprehensive "ban" or testing progam in place until recently because the Players' Union wouldn't allow them to be included in the Collective Bargaining Agreements. Public furor has finally caused them to cave.

 

Barry Bonds took steroids and HGH. If you don't believe he did, then all of this arguing is pointless. Gaining muscle mass and weight naturally do not cause your cranium to expand. There are mountains of anecdotal, statistical, and visual evidence for his drug use. He lied to a Federal Grand Jury about it. Therefore he is a criminal and a cheater. Read "Game of Shadows." And don't give me this Liberal Media Bias crap either.

 

All the other players mentioned here got caught and served their penalties. They are not relevant to a Bonds discussion.

 

I thought the discussion was about the treatment of Bonds by fans and the media, and what MLB should do.

 

I don't see in this whole thread where someone is arguing that Bonds never took a performance enhancing drug. Sure he prolly did, but I will wait to make those definitive accusations that you state as fact, when it is actually proven. Not just written about by journalists whom got their so called facts from "un-named sources". I'm not saying they are lying, but I don't believe every single thing I read either.

 

What penalties has Sheffield served? He is linked at the hip in the BALCO investigation as well as "Game of Shadows".

[surferskin 30]

I thought the discussion was about the treatment of Bonds by fans and the media, and what MLB should do.

 

I don't see in this whole thread where someone is arging that Bonds never took a performance enhancing drug. Sure he prolly did, but I will wait to make those definitive accusations that you state as fact, when it is actually proven. Not just written about by journalists whom got their so called facts from "un-named sources". I'm not saying they are lying, but I don't believe every single thing I read either.

 

What penalties has Sheffield served? He is linked at the hip in the BALCO investigation as well as "Game of Shadows".

 

dude, it's pretty simple: "the bigger they are, the harder they fall"

 

and bonds has been the biggest name in baseball for YEARS...do you honestly not understand why he's the main target?

[hoytdwow 202]

What penalties has Sheffield served? He is linked at the hip in the BALCO investigation as well as "Game of Shadows".

That investigation is ongoing, as is Sen. Mitchell's separate investigation. I hope Sheff fries.

[KSB2424 3,148]

dude, it's pretty simple: "the bigger they are, the harder they fall"

 

and bonds has been the biggest name in baseball for YEARS...do you honestly not understand why he's the main target?

 

I understand fine, I just think it is hypocritical and unjust.

[surferskin 30]

I understand fine, I just think it is hypocritical and unjust.

 

who ever told you life would be fair?