I'm teaching a class at church......

[footballpowers 0]

I have to give Fumble some credit here. From what I have seen, he has not pushed his religion on others. While making his feelings and beliefs known, he has shown discretion and an acceptance of others.

 

I would say that this thread is an example of such.

 

 

Strongly agree w/ this. While I completely disagree w/ his religious beliefs I respect him and his religious convictions. He doesn't judge or push them on anyone.

It is not religious people like him I have issues w/. It is those who judge and use religion to discredit others...

[TyCobb 0]

Frankly, the arrogance of believing "I have the right religion, all you heathens believe in the wrong God" is irritating as hell. By this logic, every Muslim should be telling every other religion that they are fools and damned, and every Buddhist, etc, etc. By this logic, the act of the Mormon church collecting log books of Holocaust victims to baptize them under the Mormon church 'as an option in the afterlife' is to be lauded. And I don't believe either of the previous points to be legitimate ones, same as I look down on the "I'm saving you from your own wickedness" aspect of evangelism.

 

Agreed. That's why it's so important to analyze the claims themselves, along with the evidence, to find out which if any are compelling and which are easily falsifiable. And on that count, I'll put the claims of the Bible up against anything in history all day every day.

 

Sounds like one of us is interested in a comparative search + dialogue, and one of us is just interested in hurling insults. I'll let you be the judge as to whether that indicates anything about our worldviews or not.

[Blitzen 0]

Why not simply believe in a higher power, not linked to any of the religious flavors? My best friend has this type of faith and I frankly have less of a problem with that. If you have faith, why do you need a book, a chunk of the cross, a man wearing a tarp and pontificating to you or whatever other paraphernalia to support your faith? He doesn't go to Church and still has powerful faith. Why would any God have a problem with this approach?

 

If it's so laughable for the universe to have come out of nowhere, why is it not as equally laughable for a God to have come out of nothing? If God has always existed, why is it not possible for the Universe to have always existed?

 

If free will exists, then why was the Book of Revelations written and why is it even in the Bible? Revealing the end kinda takes away from the belief that there is actually free will at play. If the rest of the Bible is OK despite being written by men because they were God-inspired, then the Book of Revelations had to be God-inspired and therefore reveals that there is no free will. If that Book needs to be taken with a grain of salt then why not all of the others? Once you see that free will is a crock then going through the flood, killing everyone on earth despite knowing full well that nothing would change would be tantamount to murder.

 

In fact, if you're a God, why bother with a flood? Just make everyone disappear in front of Noah and his folks. In fact, if you already know that the second experiment will fail, why even bother? Do you not have a problem with a God so vain that He/She will decide to kill billions of people down the road in order to have a few more faithfuls worshipping him/her in Heaven? If God's ultimate goal is to get people to love/worship him/her, then wouldn't that love be truer if it wasn't derived as an alternative to spending eternity in Hell? Don't tell people what the alternative is and those who still believe and love you will be the ultimate faithfuls.

[brinett9 0]

Here's something that might tend to discourage belief in young people:

 

The Virgin Mary Grilled Cheese Effect

 

I think most young people laugh this kind of thing off: the grilled cheese, claiming a chemical stain on an office building window is "a miraculous appearance of Mary", etc. etc. Examples abound.

 

But some young people are probably looking at these phenomena and wondering, "is all religion this brain-dead and retarded?"

[Bigtraine 30]

Hey Fumbleweed, I was wondering which of topics from this thread you used (or are planning to use) in your class, and what your rebuttal to them was to your students (i.e. "they said this, but they are wrong because"...).

[Voltaire 5,317]

I missed this the first time because it coincided with my travel back to the US and my brother's wedding and such. Read the whole thing and want to bump it for Bigtrain's question.

 

Surprisingly good responses with very limited flamethrown.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

I missed this the first time because it coincided with my travel back to the US and my brother's wedding and such. Read the whole thing and want to bump it for Bigtrain's question.

 

Surprisingly good responses with very limited flamethrown.

 

Can I throw out an :FU: so that you don't feel that you have stepped into the Twilight Zone?

[Fumbleweed 547]

Hey Fumbleweed, I was wondering which of topics from this thread you used (or are planning to use) in your class, and what your rebuttal to them was to your students (i.e. "they said this, but they are wrong because"...).

 

Well, I took all the feedback in this thread and over the years and was able to come up with seven categories by which people reject God, Christianity, etc.,....

 

1. Not enough proof for them

2. Too much pain and suffering in this world for God to be real

3. The Bible is not inspired, authentic

4. God fails to meet expectations of what a "God" should be

5. Too much difference between God's way and the hypocritical actions of His people

6. There are lots and lots of "religions"- who's to say which one is right.

7. Christianity contains myths that were used to explain things before other explanations came forth

 

So far, we've talked about proof of God's existence and inspiration of the Bible. Those are foundational elements that pave the way to tackle the tougher questions about who God is. If you don't believe in a Higher Power and/or don't believe the Bible to be inspired by God, the other stuff is somewhat irrelevant...so we've started there.

 

I don't have time to give you a full account of everything so far, but remember this is a class in a church setting. I don't have "students" per se....although I understand your use of that word.

[Ilov80s 0]

I still have yet to see my question addressed and I am quite curious to hear some thoughts on it:

 

If God raised man above all the animals by giving us the ability to reason, then why would he force us to defy logic to find faith in him.

[Fumbleweed 547]

I still have yet to see my question addressed and I am quite curious to hear some thoughts on it:

 

If God raised man above all the animals by giving us the ability to reason, then why would he force us to defy logic to find faith in him.

 

You're assuming that no logic exists for His presence. When you look at complexities of countless systems on earth, the order and function of those systems....even the multiple systems at work in the human body....the theory for randomness goes out the window for me. God could make his presence known such that everyone would serve Him out of fear, IMO, but His desire according to Bible seems to be devotion out of love and not fear. So, for those who seek Him, reason is satisfied....at least for many including me.

[BRANDON ROSS 0]

Well, I took all the feedback in this thread and over the years and was able to come up with seven categories by which people reject God, Christianity, etc.,....

 

1. Not enough proof for them

2. Too much pain and suffering in this world for God to be real

3. The Bible is not inspired, authentic

4. God fails to meet expectations of what a "God" should be

5. Too much difference between God's way and the hypocritical actions of His people

6. There are lots and lots of "religions"- who's to say which one is right.

7. Christianity contains myths that were used to explain things before other explanations came forth

 

So far, we've talked about proof of God's existence and inspiration of the Bible. Those are foundational elements that pave the way to tackle the tougher questions about who God is. If you don't believe in a Higher Power and/or don't believe the Bible to be inspired by God, the other stuff is somewhat irrelevant...so we've started there.

 

I don't have time to give you a full account of everything so far, but remember this is a class in a church setting. I don't have "students" per se....although I understand your use of that word.

 

Good stuff. I'm doing something similiar at my church, and I may use this list for part of it if that's ok.

[Rybo5 0]

How the heck did I miss this thread?

[Ilov80s 0]

You're assuming that no logic exists for His presence. When you look at complexities of countless systems on earth, the order and function of those systems....even the multiple systems at work in the human body....the theory for randomness goes out the window for me. God could make his presence known such that everyone would serve Him out of fear, IMO, but His desire according to Bible seems to be devotion out of love and not fear. So, for those who seek Him, reason is satisfied....at least for many including me.

 

I agree all logic points to the existance of a "god", but I don't agree that logic points to the existance of god as represented by the Old and New Testaments. Despite the apparent randomness, there is a logic and order to the world we live in. It is like an Impressionistic painting by Monet: from up close it all seems chaotic and meaningless, but from a distance every stroke was perfectly placed to create an amazing whole. IMO, God lies at the heart of logic and rational thought. God makes sense because the world we live in somehow makes sense. To unlock the meaning is to find God. Therefore, there is very much an inconsonance between the Christian god and logic. Christianity asks that we find god with blind faith. I believe we find God with our eyes, ears, and minds. We should use rational thought to find god, not abandon it for faith in a 2000 year old book.

 

Also: God could make his presence known so that all serve him out of fear or

God could make his presence known so that all serve him out of loving devotion...it would just depend on how he chose to make his presence known.

[OD99 0]

Bottom line of why religion is around is the question, "Why?"

 

Doesn't matter what religion you believe in, it is supposed to answer the Why question.

 

Why do bad things happen to me?

 

Why can't I get a decent job?

 

Why did my child get molested?

 

That last one was over the top on purpose - people want something, anything to justify why things happend and absolutely NO ONE has answers, so...must be someone or something "else" that is pulling the stings.

 

Opiate of the masses IMHO and nothing more.

[garrowl 0]

http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/

[Electric Mayhem 35]

Why not simply believe in a higher power, not linked to any of the religious flavors? My best friend has this type of faith and I frankly have less of a problem with that. If you have faith, why do you need a book, a chunk of the cross, a man wearing a tarp and pontificating to you or whatever other paraphernalia to support your faith? He doesn't go to Church and still has powerful faith. Why would any God have a problem with this approach?

 

If it's so laughable for the universe to have come out of nowhere, why is it not as equally laughable for a God to have come out of nothing? If God has always existed, why is it not possible for the Universe to have always existed?

 

If free will exists, then why was the Book of Revelations written and why is it even in the Bible? Revealing the end kinda takes away from the belief that there is actually free will at play. If the rest of the Bible is OK despite being written by men because they were God-inspired, then the Book of Revelations had to be God-inspired and therefore reveals that there is no free will. If that Book needs to be taken with a grain of salt then why not all of the others? Once you see that free will is a crock then going through the flood, killing everyone on earth despite knowing full well that nothing would change would be tantamount to murder.

 

In fact, if you're a God, why bother with a flood? Just make everyone disappear in front of Noah and his folks. In fact, if you already know that the second experiment will fail, why even bother? Do you not have a problem with a God so vain that He/She will decide to kill billions of people down the road in order to have a few more faithfuls worshipping him/her in Heaven? If God's ultimate goal is to get people to love/worship him/her, then wouldn't that love be truer if it wasn't derived as an alternative to spending eternity in Hell? Don't tell people what the alternative is and those who still believe and love you will be the ultimate faithfuls.

 

lots of great debate topics here