vetoable, dumb or makin too much of it

[Sho Nuff 720]

So when Randy Moss was traded to New England in the offseason for a 4th round pick, the Indianapolis Colts were screaming into the NFL commissioner's ear to veto the trade because what New England did was unfair. Moss for a 4th round pick? That's ridiculously unfair. And isn't fantasy football supposed to emulate the NFL?

 

Nope. I wouldn't whine about the trade. I would manage my team as best as I could the rest of the year, and let karma take care of the rest.

 

K.A.R.M.A. It's a hell of a thing.

 

Except that its not even close to the same thing.

And many thought paying anything for Moss was too much.

 

Don't try and equate real NFL trades with fantasy football...it is a bit different.

[DankNuggs 305]

Last comment - you have this annoying habit of projection - here you do it again. You project that I only use ADP when I have thrice stated that I use the rankings of 4 respected websites and my own intuition IN ADDITION TO ADP.

 

Again, that is why you are now deemed unworthy of future responses. Good luck.

all the websites use the same ADP... But i understand your thought process of seeking out several 'unbiased' (but skewed) info sources

 

 

If you are going to be completely formulaic....why not set a rule that says "Player A can only be traded for PLayer B, if A and B are within 10 spots of ADP on www.bogusrankningssite.com

 

 

If you are going to put a full body cast on the league, at least spell it out in writing.

[PatsFanatic 0]

So when Randy Moss was traded to New England in the offseason for a 4th round pick, the Indianapolis Colts were screaming into the NFL commissioner's ear to veto the trade because what New England did was unfair. Moss for a 4th round pick? That's ridiculously unfair. And isn't fantasy football supposed to emulate the NFL?

 

Nope. I wouldn't whine about the trade. I would manage my team as best as I could the rest of the year, and let karma take care of the rest.

 

K.A.R.M.A. It's a hell of a thing.

 

You can't compare fantasy football to the NFL. In the NFL there is personal attitudes, salaries, contracts, ect to deal with. In FF its usually a one year team that gets redrafted each year. In the NFL they are getting paid millions to make these decisions while in FF they don't lose their job if they make a bad trade. Apples to oranges.

[usmcwar85 0]

This coming from the guy who has "projected" how RBs and WRs will finish this season and deemed trades "fair" or "unfair" based on those projections. Hmmm.

 

let me ask you this RenoZ...would you trade your starting RB and WR for another teams bench RB and WR??? be honest..i know you wouldn't

[Guest _my_2_cents_]

I am talking about HIS rankings, you are talking about MY rankings. Conversation over.

 

I have NEVER said that I would even put them in the same general category. Not even close. I simply said that you CANNOT do his rankings for him.

 

Ok, last time - because catching up with all the posts you seem to have been proven wrong because we now know the respective team manager's rankings:

Here's how they drafted

Team A: #72 Caddy, #145 Kennison

Team B: #32 Jacobs, #41 An. Johnson

 

So Caddy was drafted 40 spots lower than Jacobs and Kennison was drafted 104 spots lower than AJonson.

 

Ergo, you've been pwnd completely. The rankings of me as commish are moot. The rankings of CBS, FFT, AntSports and TSN are moot. All that matters is where these players were drafted respectively. If the Jacobs owner wanted Caddy & Kennison it appears he had plenty of opportunity (3 rounds and 9 rounds later respectively) to draft those players. Dealing for them now is incongruent with how the managers themselves drafted.

 

topic over. Aside from your next round of hate fuelled spewing of personal attacks that is.

[FantasyKing 4]

According to who?

And who the FOCK is going to collude before season starts?

 

Someone who knows they can't win with the way their draft turns out but thinks their buddy can win but is just missing a few crucial pieces of the puzzle.

[DankNuggs 305]

Except that its not even close to the same thing.

And many thought paying anything for Moss was too much.

 

Don't try and equate real NFL trades with fantasy football...it is a bit different.

This is true... i think the first thing to do is have the Kennison/Caddy team explain the rationale behind the trade. that will be the determining factor.

[phillybear 366]

Except that its not even close to the same thing.

And many thought paying anything for Moss was too much.

 

Don't try and equate real NFL trades with fantasy football...it is a bit different.

 

I'm trying to put some real life perspective on this. "Unfair" trades happen all the time, in fantasy sports, and in real sports.. But we don't know how it will turn out until we go further down the line. Trades being vetoed seems incredibly short sighted to me.

 

I have to get some work done. I expect that this thread will go 7+ pages before I get back. Carry on.

[PatsFanatic 0]

all the websites use the same ADP... But i understand your thought process of seeking out several 'unbiased' (but skewed) info sources

If you are going to be completely formulaic....why not set a rule that says "Player A can only be traded for PLayer B, if A and B are within 10 spots of ADP on www.bogusrankningssite.com

If you are going to put a full body cast on the league, at least spell it out in writing.

 

Why does everything has to be to such an extreme with the people arguing that the trade should go through? The leauge just drafted these players and nothing has changed but its fine with you that a team trades away players that they just selected ahead of the players that they are receiving? It makes no sense whatsoever. According to you it would be fine to trade Kennison straight up for LT, you know because we don't want anyone messing with trades between owners even if it screws the league. (See what I did right there with the LT-Kennison trade, yeah thats what you guys have been doing.)

 

This is true... i think the first thing to do is have the Kennison/Caddy team explain the rationale behind the trade. that will be the determining factor.

 

Now theres something we can agree on. I would want to hear an explaination before I would vote either way although it would have to be a damn good one to change my mind.

[DankNuggs 305]

Ergo, you've been pwnd completely. The rankings of me as commish are moot. The rankings of CBS, FFT, AntSports and TSN are moot. All that matters is where these players were drafted respectively. If the Jacobs owner wanted Caddy & Kennison it appears he had plenty of opportunity (3 rounds and 9 rounds later respectively) to draft those players. Dealing for them now is incongruent with how the managers themselves drafted.

 

topic over. Aside from your next round of hate fuelled spewing of personal attacks that is.

Well, the order of draft is alot more important that www.garbagerankings.com

 

 

and this info is worthy of asking the kennison/caddy for a "Statement of Rationality" i.e. why the trade makes sense...

[FantasyKing 4]

So when Randy Moss was traded to New England in the offseason for a 4th round pick, the Indianapolis Colts were screaming into the NFL commissioner's ear to veto the trade because what New England did was unfair. Moss for a 4th round pick? That's ridiculously unfair. And isn't fantasy football supposed to emulate the NFL?

 

Nope. I wouldn't whine about the trade. I would manage my team as best as I could the rest of the year, and let karma take care of the rest.

 

K.A.R.M.A. It's a hell of a thing.

 

I'm pretty sure Indianapolis could give a sh!t about it, a 4th round pick for a player who once was a superstar but has appeared over the last few years to be washed up with an injury history is not that bad.

[Guest _my_2_cents_]

It sounds like a lot of people here get pissed off that they can't collude, or trade injured players to unsuspecting owners, and they hold commissioners as deserving of contempt. Somebodies got to provide oversight.

 

Very good observation. it's lik reading the responses on the David Boston topic - they think the cop is a pr!ck because they hate cops.

 

Clearly some of these posters hold commissioners in contempt.

[phillybear 366]

Someone who knows they can't win with the way their draft turns out but thinks their buddy can win but is just missing a few crucial pieces of the puzzle.

 

Asking this rhetorically, why would anybody help their buddy?

 

I would punch my buddy's mother in the face and kill his cat if it allowed me to make a waiver move that would help me and screw him in a football league. There isn't a lot that is more satisfying.

[Guest RenoZ]

let me ask you this RenoZ...would you trade your starting RB and WR for another teams bench RB and WR??? be honest..i know you wouldn't

 

Nope....wouldn't even think about it. That is why I wouldn't be kicked out of your league next year. But this guy is a different story.

 

You are talking about smart trade. I am talking about a legal trade.

[tiggo25 4]

This thread is hilarious. Given the initial parameters of this league, which includes veto power for the owners, then yes I would veto this trade.

 

Discussion about the merits of veto versus non-veto leagues are irrelevant in this thread. The OP insinuated that there was some sort of veto abilitiy in this league. He was not clear if it was a vote or if the commish had the authority. He was asking if you would veto. Period.

 

Reason to veto: It's still focking preseason and these players could have been drafted if you wanted them. Nothing has changed in the past week to change the oweners mind. WTF? Now if it were 6 games into the season , I would not veto the trade no matter what the stats said as long as all four players are not injured and are actively starting on there teams. I go under the assumption that each manager is a grown man and can make up his own mind regarding a trade. Of course I may not invite him to play again the following year.

 

Again, the dipstick should have drafted Caddy and Kennison if he wanted them enough to trade for them.

[Sho Nuff 720]

I'm trying to put some real life perspective on this. "Unfair" trades happen all the time, in fantasy sports, and in real sports.. But we don't know how it will turn out until we go further down the line. Trades being vetoed seems incredibly short sighted to me.

 

I have to get some work done. I expect that this thread will go 7+ pages before I get back. Carry on.

 

Who says the Moss trade is unfair?

 

There is risk involved...which is why he only cost a 4th round pick.

[DankNuggs 305]

Very good observation. it's lik reading the responses on the David Boston topic - they think the cop is a pr!ck because they hate cops.

 

Clearly some of these posters hold commissioners in contempt.

You have to remember what the agenda is of these other owners, to prevent teams from improving themselves.

 

 

In terms of process... .They shouldn't actively have to "agree" to trades... Commish should redflag suspect deals and bring them to the notice of the league, then let them vote

[Guest _my_2_cents_]

This coming from the guy who has "projected" how RBs and WRs will finish this season and deemed trades "fair" or "unfair" based on those projections. Hmmm.

 

Yet another baseless projection, wildly misrepresenting me despite my posting exactly how I make determinations.

 

Irony.

 

[Guest RenoZ]

Ok, last time - because catching up with all the posts you seem to have been proven wrong because we now know the respective team manager's rankings:

So Caddy was drafted 40 spots lower than Jacobs and Kennison was drafted 104 spots lower than AJonson.

 

Ergo, you've been pwnd completely. The rankings of me as commish are moot. The rankings of CBS, FFT, AntSports and TSN are moot. All that matters is where these players were drafted respectively. If the Jacobs owner wanted Caddy & Kennison it appears he had plenty of opportunity (3 rounds and 9 rounds later respectively) to draft those players. Dealing for them now is incongruent with how the managers themselves drafted.

 

topic over. Aside from your next round of hate fuelled spewing of personal attacks that is.

 

You haven't proven jack sh1t except that one owner in the league is a moron. I've never argued that. Ever.

 

I just had a bad draft on Saturday that I wish I could fix. Who's to say this guy didn't go back through the draft and realize that he made some real bad picks and is now attempting to fix it? I have no idea and neither do you.

 

Again (for the tenth and final time), if you think it is collusion: Veto it. If you (in your heart) think it is just a real dumb trade, leave it alone and kick him out next year.

[Voice_Of_Reason 0]

Seriously, dude, get off your high horse and let guys trade who they want to trade.

 

I absolutely HATE when commissioners (and league members) try to cancel a trade because a team gets better. Isn't that the point of the trade?

thread over.

[Guest RenoZ]

Yet another baseless projection, wildly misrepresenting me despite my posting exactly how I make determinations.

 

Irony.

 

 

Are you or are you not "projecting" that Jacobs and Johnson will outscore Williams and Kennison? Please just answer the question.

 

BTW, unless you get paid by some website/magazine, projecting season stats for the rest of the league is NOT your job.

[killersquids 3]

Wrong. it most certainly does matter what I think. in the league constitution the league members elected me as that governing party. So again - your reasoning here is flawed. It's not like as commish I just step in and shoot it down.

 

The context of my determination is that more than 1/2 the league has voted agian st this deal and in the constitution the league has authorized me to be the final authority on whether that deal in that circumstans is approved.

 

This whole, "who are you to decide whether it's a fair deal" is just a load of crap - I'll tell you who I am: I am the guy who the league elected to be the guy to make that determination. If I am involved in the deal, the co-commish is the one to determine it, and it it's a deal between I and the co-commish we have a 3rd league member as an alternate to make the determination.

 

This is why we have a league constitution and have a league voting process for trades. If you don't like it, great - don't play in my league. But don't go telling me I have no right to make the decision, because it is precisely my call to make once 6 of 12 league members voiced their opinion as to vote down the deal.

 

And again: think outside the box. 1/2 the league or more votes a deal down for imbalance, and the commish says, "well they're not cheating even though one guy is clearly raping the other, so I'm approving it" - hey, good luck filling your league next year because none of the people who voted it down will want to play in that league the next year.

 

 

So where is the point that a trade goes thru? I agree that this looks shady and I would definately investigate, but to just blatently veto it is ridiculous. Some trades are lopsided, some owners are desparate, some are not as savvy.....whatever the reason, there is no way I veto this without further evidence.

 

My questions are when was the draft and where were these players taken. I have not read thru this entire thread but answers to these questions are a big factor.

[Guest RenoZ]

thread over.

 

...and that was a LONG time ago. Problem is that these little guys can't get their foot down to the stirrup to climb down.

[Guest _my_2_cents_]

You haven't proven jack sh1t except that one owner in the league is a moron. I've never argued that. Ever.

 

I just had a bad draft on Saturday that I wish I could fix. Who's to say this guy didn't go back through the draft and realize that he made some real bad picks and is now attempting to fix it? I have no idea and neither do you.

 

Again (for the tenth and final time), if you think it is collusion: Veto it. If you (in your heart) think it is just a real dumb trade, leave it alone and kick him out next year.

 

This is nonsense. You're reaching now, really.

 

According to you it went down like this:

Owner #1, " I took Jacobs in the 3rd and AJ in the 4th, but what I really wanted was Caddy in the 4th and Kennison in the 4th. Never mind that I could have just drafted Caddy at any point in the next 3 rounds since he didn't get taken until 40 picks later, and ignoring that I could have just taken Kennison as a WR6 9 rounds later since there were 104 picks between when i wanted him and when he was taken....I need to correct this immediately - lemme see if Owner #2 is interested in fisting me anally without lube!

 

:dials phone:

 

Owner #2, "yes? what? Sure - you know I nearly took Jacobs in the 6th round, but you beat me too him just barely. and Kennison is going to be a STUD! You're going to be thrilled with this deal!"

 

Owner #1, "great!

 

 

I give that a gigantic

 

And yes, that was me projecting just a bit - it's kind of fun, so I see why you guys do it so much.

[usmcwar85 0]

...and that was a LONG time ago. Problem is that these little guys can't get their foot down to the stirrup to climb down.

 

NO...problem is that some people :coughs and points to you: wouldn't recognize collusion if it hit them in the face

[Guest RenoZ]

This is nonsense. You're reaching now, really.

 

According to you it went down like this:

Owner #1, " I took Jacobs in the 3rd and AJ in the 4th, but what I really wanted was Caddy in the 4th and Kennison in the 4th. Never mind that I could have just drafted Caddy at any point in the next 3 rounds since he didn't get taken until 40 picks later, and ignoring that I could have just taken Kennison as a WR6 9 rounds later since there were 104 picks between when i wanted him and when he was taken....I need to correct this immediately - lemme see if Owner #2 is interested in fisting me anally without lube!

 

:dials phone:

 

Owner #2, "yes? what? Sure - you know I nearly took Jacobs in the 6th round, but you beat me too him just barely. and Kennison is going to be a STUD! You're going to be thrilled with this deal!"

 

Owner #1, "great!

I give that a gigantic

 

And yes, that was me projecting just a bit - it's kind of fun, so I see why you guys do it so much.

 

This showed us all how irrational and juvenile you are...thanks.

 

Now, back on topic: Are you going to answer my previous question? Projecting BJ/AJ vs. CW/EK?

[Guest _my_2_cents_]

Are you or are you not "projecting" that Jacobs and Johnson will outscore Williams and Kennison? Please just answer the question.

 

Again: my projections are not in question here. As stated, as soon as the draft positions became known it doesn't matter what I personally think. You keep harping on this and accusing me of avoiding the question, but you keep ignoring that it doesn't matter nor is this accurate.

 

My projections don't matter. TSN, RotoWorld, CBS, mockdraftcentral's projections don't matter - what matters is that this owner picked players in the 3rd/4th rounds and is dealing them for players taken in the 6th/14th rounds.

 

Try to read that slowly, and several times if needs be for it to sink in. this whole, "ignore the post, project something to help me win the debate" nonsense is getting really old.

 

BTW, unless you get paid by some website/magazine, projecting season stats for the rest of the league is NOT your job.

And again, as the commish in a situation when 50% of the league votes against something, per our league constitution it is absolutely my job. Uh, for the 11th time.

[Guest _my_2_cents_]

My questions are when was the draft and where were these players taken. I have not read thru this entire thread but answers to these questions are a big factor.

 

It was posted. This is a 3rd and 4th rounder being dealt for a 6th and 15th rounder.

 

S my rankings/projections/ADP - all that goes out the window. This is either collusion or retardation and 100% vetoable in any circumstance.

 

RenoZ and DankNuggs are just embarassed to back down and lose face.

[Guest RenoZ]

NO...problem is that some people :coughs and points to you: wouldn't recognize collusion if it hit them in the face

 

ROTFLMAO

 

I've said before (and will provide links if needed), if the OP thinks it is collusion and has the power to veto, he probably should. If he thinks that it is a dumb trade, he probably shouldn't.

 

Are we all clear now or should I slow down a bit?

[killersquids 3]

I've changed my stance after reading this last page....Caddy was drafted 40 spots later!! Kennison drafted 100 spots later!!!

 

WHEN WAS THIS DRAFT HELD? Has this question been answered yet?

 

The fact is I hate vetoing trades, but c'mon people. I want to know what the owner's explanation is before officially vetoing but this is beyond fishy.

[Guest RenoZ]

If I say it three more time, that will make an even 100:

 

"I've said before (and will provide links if needed), if the OP thinks it is collusion and has the power to veto, he probably should. If he thinks that it is a dumb trade, he probably shouldn't."

[Guest RenoZ]

If I say it two more times, that will make an even 100:

 

"I've said before (and will provide links if needed), if the OP thinks it is collusion and has the power to veto, he probably should. If he thinks that it is a dumb trade, he probably shouldn't."

[darwin 0]

If you let all trades (like this one go through), you end up with groups of teams instead of individual team owners. 12 guys draft and 1 day later, they get togethor in little groups and re form the teams into a few powerhouse and leftovers. Nothing kills a league faster than allowing unregulated trading.

Groups of guys, pooling their money for a number of teams, and then stringing togethor a series of trades resulting in a team no one can beat. Unless their are two or three groups of teams just like that.

 

If that's the kind of league you want, fine. But most people don't want to join a league like that.

And this league has veto rules to prevent this, as do most. Clearly, the two owners involved are trying to subtly pool their resources.

[Guest RenoZ]

If I say it one more time, that will make an even 100:

 

"I've said before (and will provide links if needed), if the OP thinks it is collusion and has the power to veto, he probably should. If he thinks that it is a dumb trade, he probably shouldn't."

 

[Guest _my_2_cents_]

This showed us all how irrational and juvenile you are...thanks.

 

Wow - more ad hominem.

 

In fact, I was simply illustrating the logic presented in the post I quoted - the "second thoughts" theory. The illustration seems juviline because of the utterly ridiculous nature of the example. How else does one demonstrate why a guy picked players in the 3rd and 4th rounds then turned around to deal them to a guy for players taken in the 6th and 13th rounds? Players he could himself have drafted as backups with several rounds of cushion?

 

There is no explanation. That's the point. But instead of you ackknowledging the ridiculous nature of this trade and accepting the valid logic presented to you that demonstrates why it's ridiculous, you ignore that and attack the poster with more ad hominem. That's your style so I don't know why I expect better of you, but your credibility here becomes less with every instance of this. just a tip.

 

Now, back on topic: Are you going to answer my previous question? Projecting BJ/AJ vs. CW/EK?

 

Another assertion of my "ignoring" your challenge - despite it being untrue since I already addressed it previously. And I was responding to it a second time when you were posting this challenge. You're a weird dude.

[Pinto 0]

Okay, I'll say it. Instead of vetoing the trade, why don't you go to the dumb owner's house and punch him in the face in front of his wife and kids? I think that's a fair compromise.

[Guest _my_2_cents_]

I've changed my stance after reading this last page....Caddy was drafted 40 spots later!! Kennison drafted 100 spots later!!!

 

WHEN WAS THIS DRAFT HELD? Has this question been answered yet?

 

The fact is I hate vetoing trades, but c'mon people. I want to know what the owner's explanation is before officially vetoing but this is beyond fishy.

 

bingo. common sense on that one.

[usmcwar85 0]

all in favor of the trade being collusion win...case closed

 

sucks to be you RenoZ (you definitely are hard headed)

[Guest RenoZ]

I've never in my life (nor would ever want to) owned Cadillac Williams or Eddie Kennison. This year, though, I am a huge fan of both. Both of these owners are getting focked if you veto this trade before the season even starts. Bad precedent.

[kwhiz73 0]

So if the owner feels this way then why did they draft Jacbos instead of Caddy and then again draft Johnson instead of Kennison? Can you just answer that? Because you certainly would have to pick them in that order to get them.

 

I'm not sure how to answer that. If I had a dime for every dumb draft mistake I've seen over the last 15 years in my league....So you want me to measure another drafters stupidity? Or another's sales ability?

 

Listen: If you honestly think Andre Johnson and Brandon Jacobs are going to "make the difference" then I will discontinue my debate on this subject. Does this really improve his team all that much? During last years preseason (for the sake of argument give Jacobs equal value) I would have taken Caddy and Kennison in a hearbeat for AJ and Jacobs. This year I would say Jacobs and AJ are a bit better--but to the point of vetoing a trade--not even close. It could very well be a good trade for the player getting Caddy when its all said and done.

 

 

Not all players remember the exact draft position they take a player. Not all players pay attention to values placed on players pre-season. Not all players fall into the "geek" category and read this material several times a day to increase their ff knowledge Calling this collusion (unless you have some specific information not mentioned here) is simply inaccurate and nit picky.