If you are against universal healthcare...why?

[dolfan06 1]

We already have universal health care. It's called the emergency room, which anyone can go to if they're about to die and have their lives saved if it can be saved regardless of whether they can pay for it. It's also called Medicaid, which provides care for pregnant women, children and poor people, and Medicare, which provides care for old people and disabled people.

 

The question is, how much more care do we want to guarantee for people who can't afford it and how much will that guarantee cost those who can. I truly don't know if I support more universal healthcare than we already have--it seems that we have a hard enough time paying for the care that we're already guaranteeing.

 

The real problem is that we're running out of doctors and their economy practically forces them to specialize. Therefore we're good at taking care of the expensive patients but we're terrible at taking care of them until they become expensive. If you fix our system of primary care delivery and make THAT available to everyone, then yeah, I could be down with that.

[gocolts 300]

Go Colts, if you have a honorable discharge the VA has to take you in no matter what has happened to you, go to the local VA and sign up, it'll take 6 months or so (they'll tell you a couple of weeks), once in the system the care you get isn't all that bad, at least its alot better than I thought it would be.

 

Patiently waiting.

 

Tried that a long time ago. I can't get it. Wrong discharge. I am not worried about it at all as there have been other things available for me like my own health insurance. I use to do pretty good financially. It hasn't been a problem. I tried to get that right away and was denied.

[Baby Jesus 0]

Wrong discharge. I think that's my next alias.

[gocolts 300]

Wrong discharge. I think that's my next alias.

Awesome!!!

[gocolts 300]

Wrong discharge. I think that's my next alias.

I am still an hour after reading this.

[Baby Jesus 0]

Care to explain the wrong discharge?

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Care to explain the wrong discharge?

 

He got a Section 8. Leave Klinger alone!

[gocolts 300]

Care to explain the wrong discharge?

I have already said too much.

[VikesFan 1]

Better yet, go to one of the local "Service" reps - disabled American vets, VFW, etc., and see if they will take up your case. If you leave it just to the VA facility, you may get lucky, but the service reps have people who work with you to get you what you deserve.

 

As to the doctor who put on the form you can't work, this sounds to me like a potential law suit. I guess it depends on your state laws, but if you were fired for being injured, I would think they would be held responsible for workman's comp.

 

Good luck.

 

I dont' know if it has been mentioned or not, but if you want to get an idea on how your universal healthcare would work, take a long long look at how the VA takes care of its patients... It really is sad.

[ERZER 0]

I dont' know if it has been mentioned or not, but if you want to get an idea on how your universal healthcare would work, take a long long look at how the VA takes care of its patients... It really is sad.

 

 

As a retired vet, I am well aware of poorly the government takes care of us. When I enlisted, I was told I would be taken care of for life and so would my wife when/if i got married. Thanks to Hillary's idea, the powers that be decided to change the game plan and our Tri-care is now very similar to what her idea of socialized medicine would be.

 

My current employer found out about a supplement to tri-care called ASI and bought it for us, so I paid nothing. Sweet deal until the military convinced the government to pass a law preventing companies from doing this. Seems our illustrious congress doesn't like it when companies take care of its people when it saves us and the company money in the long run.

 

I can't wait to see what comes next.

[DanXIII 8]

Forgot to add that waiting times at the main hospitals near where I live are often at least 9 hours. Thank god there is a smaller hospital I can go to where waiting times are usually much shorter than that.

 

I spent over 9 hours in an emergency room here in FL with my wife a couple of weeks ago.

 

I also happen to have a stepmother who is alive today because she is a Canadian national and was able to return to Canada for open-heart surgery...a procedure that her stateside HMO refused to cover.

 

I know it's only anecdotal...but from a personal standpoint, I am thankful for Canada's health system. Is it perfect? No, and no system ever will be. It sure as hell beats letting people die because they can't afford procedures like these.

[DanXIII 8]

I dont' know if it has been mentioned or not, but if you want to get an idea on how your universal healthcare would work, take a long long look at how the VA takes care of its patients... It really is sad.

 

Every member of Congress has great health benefits. You can't have a system in place and then blame its failures all on said system. Those in charge must be held accountable.

[DanXIII 8]

We already have universal health care. It's called the emergency room, which anyone can go to if they're about to die and have their lives saved if it can be saved regardless of whether they can pay for it.

 

Right, but is it really a great idea to force people into bankruptcy simply because their bosses don't offer health insurance? I bet you know someone, or know someone who knows someone to whom this has happened.

 

Who loses when this happens? The insured, that's who. They're the ones whose co-pays and premiums will be raised to cover the defaults.

[jerryskids 6,790]

Right, but is it really a great idea to force people into bankruptcy simply because their bosses don't offer health insurance? I bet you know someone, or know someone who knows someone to whom this has happened.

 

Who loses when this happens? The insured, that's who. They're the ones whose co-pays and premiums will be raised to cover the defaults.

I agree with the second paragraph. The first... why should bosses be required to offer health insurance?

[Strike 5,532]

Every member of Congress has great health benefits. You can't have a system in place and then blame its failures all on said system. Those in charge must be held accountable.

 

How is this relevant? They get a health plan that is budgeted for by their employer, which just happens to be the gov't. It's no different than what the private sector does. I bet they don't have the cost of that plan deducted from their paychecks as Hitlery is suggesting. BTW,

 

To begin with, not everyone makes the $165,000 a year or so that members of Congress do. In fact, at least 100,000 federal workers — at least 5 percent of the active work force — do not have health insurance. In many cases, according to the union that represents the workers, they consider even the cheapest options within the federal plan unaffordable. The lowest-priced family coverage offered by Blue Cross, for example, costs the employee about $2,400 a year.

[Strike 5,532]

Right, but is it really a great idea to force people into bankruptcy simply because their bosses don't offer health insurance? I bet you know someone, or know someone who knows someone to whom this has happened.

 

Actually I don't know anyone who has been forced into bankruptcy due to not being able to get health insurance, and noone I know has ever said that they do either.

[Strike 5,532]

I spent over 9 hours in an emergency room here in FL with my wife a couple of weeks ago.

 

How many illegal aliens were cluttering up that emergency room?

[Strike 5,532]

I know it's only anecdotal...but from a personal standpoint, I am thankful for Canada's health system. Is it perfect? No, and no system ever will be. It sure as hell beats letting people die because they can't afford procedures like these.

 

Ok, here's an anecdotal story, of someone who is going bankrupt AND almost died.........BECAUSE of Canada's system.

 

http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/news/sto...1d0&k=82139

 

[Savage Beast 1]

Get a job you lazy losers, and you won't need the government to pay your medical bills.

[dolfan06 1]

How many illegal aliens were cluttering up that emergency room?

 

As a high-powered healthcare executive, I'm wrestling with enforcing a policy of requiring photo ID as a condition of continuing treatment after we've stabilized an emergency. Comparable facilities have attempted this with varying degrees of success.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

As a high-powered healthcare executive, I'm wrestling with enforcing a policy of requiring photo ID as a condition of continuing treatment after we've stabilized an emergency. Comparable facilities have attempted this with varying degrees of success.

 

What do you think of mandates (by State, for example) that everyone has healthcare insurance? Does that really address the key concerns of the hospitals in their ability to make sure that they collect from everyone receiving services? Or is this is a smoke screen that just allows the healthcare industry to increase their overall revenues?

 

I will hang up and listen to your answer. TIA

[phillybear 366]

As a high-powered healthcare executive, I'm wrestling with enforcing a policy of requiring photo ID as a condition of continuing treatment after we've stabilized an emergency. Comparable facilities have attempted this with varying degrees of success.

 

You type like Mike Tyson talks.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

You type like Mike Tyson talks.

 

He types with a lisp?

[DanXIII 8]

How many illegal aliens were cluttering up that emergency room?

 

Well, I didn't bother to take a poll, but I doubt very many. You see, FL doesn't have the problem with "illegal aliens" that TX, AZ and CA face. Lest we forget, we have a "dry land" policy when it comes to Cuban immigrants; if they can get to American soil, they get to stay. I guess their lives are more valuable than Mexican lives, but that is a question for another thread.

 

I would guess that the vast majority of Hispanic immigrants in FL (which is the group identifier I assume you are referring to) are either of Cuban or Puerto Rican nationality (and Puerto Rico is almost another state).

 

I would guess that most folks in that emergency room were poor and uninsured, though.

[DanXIII 8]

Tried that a long time ago. I can't get it. Wrong discharge. I am not worried about it at all as there have been other things available for me like my own health insurance. I use to do pretty good financially. It hasn't been a problem. I tried to get that right away and was denied.

 

So you got too many Article 15's, got your ass booted from the service...and the reason you can't get health coverage is because of "the system?" THE SYSTEM is broken because YOU focked up?

 

How typically right-wing-nut of you. Personal responsibility and all that.

[DanXIII 8]

Ok, here's an anecdotal story, of someone who is going bankrupt AND almost died.........BECAUSE of Canada's system.

 

http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/news/sto...1d0&k=82139

 

 

I never once said Canada's system was without flaws. I said that I personally know a woman who is alive today because she received treatment in Canada that was refused in the US.

 

Your story reads like her doctors dropped the ball on this matter initially...more of a 'human' problem than a systemic one:

 

The problem? She had previously been a patient of a colleague of that doctor and had terminated the relationship, and was told it would be a conflict of interest. "That doctor didn't immediately call the general surgeon, and that doctor sent a note ... saying that I needed to see somebody in London."

 

That said, your own story proves my point. She received for-profit healthcare in the States and is now going bankrupt!

 

Stories like the one you shared are important in reforming any system in need of such reform. That said, I can guarantee you that if you polled Canadians they'd rather keep their system than move to a system like ours. Throwing the baby out with the tepid bathwater is almost never a good idea.

[Bert 1,128]

Hey Guys; I seen on the news up here in Canada where Hillary Clinton introduced her new health

care plan. Something similar to what we have in Canada. I also heard that Michael Moore was raving

about the health care up here in Canada in his latest movie. As your friend and someone who lives

with the Canada health care plan I thought I would give you some facts about this great medical plan

that we have in Canada.

 

First of all:

 

1) The health care plan in Canada is not free. We pay a premium every month of $96. for Shirley and

I to be covered. Sounds great eh? What they don't tell you is how much we pay in taxes to keep the

health care system afloat. I am personally in the 55% tax bracket. Yes 55% of my earnings go to

taxes. A large portion of that and I am not sure of the exact amount goes directly to health care our

#1 expense.

 

2) I would not classify what we have as health care plan, it is more like a health diagnosis system.

You can get into to see a doctor quick enough so he can tell you "yes indeed you are sick or you

need an operation" but now the challenge becomes getting treated or operated on. We have waiting

lists out the ying yang some as much as 2 years down the road.

 

3) Rather than fix what is wrong with you the usual tactic in Canada is to prescribe drugs. Have a

pain here is a drug to take- not what is causing the pain and why. No time for checking you out

because it is more important to move as many patients thru as possible each hour for Government

re-imbursement

 

4) Many Canadians do not have a family Doctor.

 

5) Don't require emergency treatment as you may wait for hours in the emergency room waiting for

treatment.

 

6) Shirley's dad cut his hand on a power saw a few weeks back and it required that his hand be put in

a splint - to our surprise we had to pay $125. for a splint because it is not covered under health care

plus we have to pay $60. for each visit for him to check it out each week.

 

7) Shirley's cousin was diagnosed with a heart blockage. Put on a waiting list. Died before he could get

treatment.

 

8) Government allots so many operations per year. When that is done no more operations, unless you

go to your local newspaper and plead your case and embarrass the government then money suddenly

appears.

 

9) The Government takes great pride in telling us how much more they are increasing the funding for

health care but waiting lists never get shorter. Government just keeps throwing money at the problem

but it never goes away. But they are good at finding new ways to tax us, but they don't call it a tax

anymore it is now a user fee

 

10) My mother needs an operation for a blockage in her leg but because she is a smoker they will not

do it. Despite her and my father paying into the health care system all these years. My Mom is 80

years of age. Now there is talk that maybe we should not treat fat and obese people either because

they are a drain on the health care system. Let me see now, what we want in Canada is a health care

system for healthy people only. That should reduce our health care costs.

 

11) Forget getting a second opinion, what you see is what you get.

 

12) I can spend what money I have left after taxes on booze, cigarettes, junk food and anything else that

could kill me but I am not allowed by law to spend my money on getting an operation I need because

that would be jumping the queue. I must wait my turn except if I am a hockey player or athlete then I

can get looked at right away. Go figger. Where else in the world can you spend money to kill yourself

but not allowed to spend money to get healthy.

 

13) Oh did I mention that immigrants are covered automatically at tax payer expense having never contributed

a dollar to the system and pay no premiums.

 

14) Oh yeh we now give free needles to drug users to try and keep them healthy. Wouldn't want a sickly

druggie breaking into your house and stealing your things. But people with diabetes who pay into the health

care system have to pay for their needles because it is not covered but the health care system.

 

I send this out not looking for sympathy but as the election looms in the states you will be hearing more

and more about universal health care down there and the advocates will be pointing to Canada. I just want

to make sure that you hear the truth about health care up here and have some food for thought and informed

questions to ask when broached with this subject.

 

Step wisely and don't make the same mistakes we have.

[dolfan06 1]

Great post Bert.

 

The question shouldn't be "do we want universal health care?" the question should be "how much health care do we want to guarantee to everyone, given that the more we guarantee the more it will cost in money, quality and access for everyone?"

[DanXIII 8]

How is this relevant? They get a health plan that is budgeted for by their employer, which just happens to be the the US taxpayer. It's no different than what the private sector does. I bet they don't have the cost of that plan deducted from their paychecks as Hitlery is suggesting. BTW,

 

 

Fixed. And it is EXTREMELY relevant in the context above.

 

What you fail to comprehend is the notion that, EVEN IF someone has health insurance that does not automatically mean that said person will have access to needed care. People are denied coverage every day in this country by their HMO's. We can talk about the reasons for these denials from now on, but ultimately people are denied simply because it is more profitable for the HMO to deny coverage and defend itself in litigation than to simply pay the claim.

 

The lowest-priced family coverage offered by Blue Cross, for example, costs the employee about $2,400 a year.

 

Just a guess...but I would be willing to bet that $2400/year family plan comes with a $7500 family deductible. Many working families simply cannot afford that, never mind the "deadbeats" who "don't have insurance because they don't want to pay for it."

[DanXIII 8]

I agree with the second paragraph. The first... why should bosses be required to offer health insurance?

 

They shouldn't, which is why I advocate a single-payer plan that takes "bosses" out of the healthcare loop. Business owners should focus on being profitable, not providing healthcare for their employees.

 

From Physicians for a National Health Program:

 

http://www.pnhp.org/facts/what_is_single_payer.php

 

Single-payer is a term used to describe a type of financing system. It refers to one entity acting as administrator, or “payer.” In the case of health care, a single-payer system would be setup such that one entity—a government run organization—would collect all health care fees, and pay out all health care costs. In the current US system, there are literally tens of thousands of different health care organizations—HMOs, billing agencies, etc. By having so many different payers of health care fees, there is an enormous amount of administrative waste generated in the system. (Just imagine how complex billing must be in a doctor’s office, when each insurance company requires a different form to be completed, has a different billing system, different billing contacts and phone numbers—it’s very confusing.) In a single-payer system, all hospitals, doctors, and other health care providers would bill one entity for their services. This alone reduces administrative waste greatly, and saves money, which can be used to provide care and insurance to those who currently don’t have it.

 

That said, I am NOT in favor of eliminating the option of patients seeking private, out-of-system care on their own. If someone can pay for it they should be able to seek whatever they happen to deem "better" care, if they show choose.

 

Otherwise, it's communism.

[The Moz 69]

Didn't read any posts other than the title

 

Anyway I would be for universal healthcare if it was only used for the US CITIZENS who have jobs that do not provide health insurance coverage and really WANT health insurance coverage at a reasonable low cost. As it is right now the US has basically the best doctors and Hospitals anywhere. Also the US costs prolly more than anywhere else but becasue of that be get the very best healthcare in the world. In socialized healthcare the goberment runs the show and what hasn't the goberment focked up ?

 

In Canada where my wifes family is from they have said that over here ia 100 X better than there. I mean yeah it's free and if your just goingto a gen practice guy and getting a script fine. If you need a operation - good focking luck.

 

I am for universal healthcare as long as it could work with not replace the system we have right now.

[dolfan06 1]

the point of a multi-payer system is so that risk can be spread and payers can compete on efficiency in managing costs and care and reward the providers who do the best job of working within that system. a single-payer system eliminates the incentive to manage costs (to illustrate, the government pays whatever it wants under Medicare/Medicaid, doesn't have to negotiate, and therefore Medicare and Medicaid rates tend not to cover even the most efficient providers' actual costs) and takes away any ability that providers have to ensure that costs and payments are tied to the actual needs of the populations they serve.

the argument over administrative waste from multiple payers and billing systems is overblown. billing systems are largely standardized across payers (with the only differences being the rates payers pay for various services) and dictated by Medicare. i would agree that insurance companies are so powerful that their profit margins could be part of the overall cost crisis in healthcare.

[Voice_Of_Reason 0]

This is why I don't want universal health care....

 

Link

 

A German retiree is taking a hospital to court after she went in for a leg operation and got a new anus instead, the Daily Telegraph is reporting.

 

The woman woke up to find she had been mixed up with another patient suffering from incontinence who was to have surgery on her sphincter.

 

The clinic in Hochfranken, Bavaria, has since suspended the surgical team.

 

Now the woman is planning to sue the hospital. She still needs the leg operation and is searching for another hospital to do it.

[Strike 5,532]

Just a guess...but I would be willing to bet that $2400/year family plan comes with a $7500 family deductible. Many working families simply cannot afford that, never mind the "deadbeats" who "don't have insurance because they don't want to pay for it."

 

Uh, not sure you realize this, but that quote refers to the system congresspeople and other federal employees have access to.

 

But now I get the point of this thread. It wasn't for you to try to understand why people are opposed to universal healthcare. It was for people to list those reasons and you to tell us how wrong we are. Nice job

[The Moz 69]

This is why I don't want universal health care....

 

Link

 

 

 

little late on that one but decent point though

[Blitzen 0]

In Canada where my wifes family is from they have said that over here ia 100 X better than there. I mean yeah it's free and if your just goingto a gen practice guy and getting a script fine. If you need a operation - good focking luck.

 

This is a rather large misconception. It isn't free in Canada, not by a long shot. All I have to do is look at my taxes to realize that.