What's your annual family income?

[Savage Beast 1]

Personally, I think it's time that we make a dramatic shift from the policies that have landed us in this horrific position. I liked Obama anyways, but I believe that McCain would be an absolute disaster as President, possibly worse than Bush when all is said and done, so that only strengthens my support for Obama.

 

Both McCain and Obama suck, but the liberal judges that Obama will appoint are what scares me about him. At least McCain will not put abortion mill judges on the stand, liberal welfare state judges, and gay marriage legalizing evil b@stards as judges.

 

You want to see our society change, then you need look no farther then the judges who run this country. The president doesn't run this country, nor does congress or the senate, the judges do. HTH

[Rattlesnake 0]

Both McCain and Obama suck, but the liberal judges that Obama will appoint are what scares me about him. At least McCain will not put abortion mill judges on the stand, liberal welfare state judges, and gay marriage legalizing evil b@stards as judges.

 

You want to see our society change, then you need look no farther then the judges who run this country. The president doesn't run this country, nor does congress or the senate, the judges do. HTH

 

Well, that's an understandable argument. If you're concerned about social issues and are a staunch conservative, then I understand why Obama may not be appealing. Of course, McCain probably isn't, either. Personally, issues like abortion and gay marriage are always on the back burner for me, as they shouldn't be political issues anyways and I certainly wouldn't ever vote for someone (or not vote for someone) based on them.

 

It's this "Obama is a socialist" thing that I obviously take issue with, because it's absurd.

[TD Ryan2 314]

I do. A buddy of mine whose family income is over $260K compared hours with me 2 years ago. He works in the business world, as do most of you, based on past conversations. He counted his hours for a 12-month period and so did I. My count was higher, and it wasn't even close.

 

I've mentioned this on here before. Due to a labor dispute, teachers in my corporation tracked hours a couple of years ago (during a school year). The results showed that the average teacher worked their "summer vacation" between August and June. For many teachers, like myself, enough hours were logged to average up to 14-15 months of work, even though we "only work 9.5-10 months a year". It's too bad that about 3-5% of the teachers were apparently lazy bastards and they literally only worked the 9.5-10 months. A few were less. Otherwise, our average would have been insane.

 

 

see, then why not just get another job? a better paying job? instead of comparing notes and figuring out how much you're getting screwed and taking the whole "whoa is me" or even (god forbid) "I'm owed" angle?

You have an education, there's nothing stopping you.

 

I understand how important teachers are.

I also understand how demanding the job is... you can't go to the freakin' bathroom or get a cup of coffee.

Frankly, that's why I didn't become a teacher (that, and the fact that I made as much money with 2 crappy part time jobs as I would have as a full time teacher).

 

But why on earth would you go to work for 40 - 50 hours a week for $30k? How can you possible think that's sane?

And I'm sorry but the whole "I love what I do" goes out the window the minute you start figuring out how much you have to work and how you're getting screwed.

 

Until there are no more qualified people that will enter the teaching profession, the pay won't go up. We're probably on/near the brink of not having qualified people in the teaching profession.

But in the end, supply and demand will sort itself out and for those of you smart and capable enough to find another occupation, you should do so.

[jerryskids 5,215]

Assumptions are fun, aren't they?

 

I realize that the rich bastards out there all worry about his tax plan. That's fine, I understand why, to a degree. As I've stated many times here, I support Obama because of a few major things: foreign policy strategy, the fact that he places such an emphasis on education and has such a good plan (for both secondary and college levels), and because he's an intellectual leader whose honesty is refreshing and is someone that would represent us well around the world. Personally, I think it's time that we make a dramatic shift from the policies that have landed us in this horrific position. I liked Obama anyways, but I believe that McCain would be an absolute disaster as President, possibly worse than Bush when all is said and done, so that only strengthens my support for Obama. Most of the reasons that I support him have nothing to do with money. Of course, while money is important to me, I'm not one of those people who only thinks about my own pocketbook when I'm standing in the polling booth on election day......and if I do, it's usually as I lament the amount of money that's been wasted on "defense" overseas.

 

While the notion that Obama supporters are simply lazy bastards who don't want to work for themselves obviously helps some of you get through the day, as it is a very self-fulfilling statement to make, it's just ignorant and flat out wrong. Sure, it's true that some of his supporters are like that, and you'll always have that. To attempt to say that his base is made up of primarily those kinds of people just isn't true, however. I realize that it makes some of you feel good to say it, though, as it justifies your own existence. In truth, Obama has a lot of supporters like myself.......college graduate, working in a civil service job, currently enrolled in a Master's program.......and would rather see our government spend money within our borders as opposed to in the Middle East.

 

Keep telling yourselves whatever you need to, though.

Assumptions? Like, all rich people are bastards? Or perhaps, all rich people who want to maximize the amount of their hard-earned money they can keep are bastards?

 

I never said that all Obama supporters are "simply lazy bastards who don't want to work for themselves." Some are of course. I said in 04, I'll say again now, and I'll say again as the election approaches: I don't put a lot of weight into the soundbites that candidates say. Part of their job is to get elected, I understand that. Instead, I try to determine their underlying beliefs. With Kerry I couldn't figure that out, hence I didn't vote for him. Unfortunately for Obama, I believe that his underlying belief is that the rich should give to the poor. I also try to determine their credentials for POTUS. McCain has a ton of experience and survived years of torture, I'm pretty sure he won't freeze up in a pressure situation. Obama is young, inexperienced, and says nice werds. The potential of him having his finger on the big red button frightens me.

[Frank M 181]

see, then why not just get another job? a better paying job? instead of comparing notes and figuring out how much you're getting screwed and taking the whole "whoa is me" or even (god forbid) "I'm owed" angle?

 

Perhaps money isn't the determining factor for some people in deciding what they want to do.

[TD Ryan2 314]

Perhaps money isn't the determining factor for some people in deciding what they want to do.

 

Being responsible and accountable for one's self should be the determining factor.

I'd love to play Madden football for a living.

I'd love to teach kids the finer techniques of dodge ball for a living.

But if I choose to do those things, I'm really not going to become self-sufficient. I'm really not going to be able to be responsible for and accountable for myself.

[Birdseed 1]

Perhaps money isn't the determining factor for some people in deciding what they want to do.

 

Perhaps, but then I don't want to hear the bitching about it.

[Strike 3,999]

Being responsible and accountable for one's self should be the determining factor.

I'd love to play Madden football for a living.

I'd love to teach kids the finer techniques of dodge ball for a living.

But if I choose to do those things, I'm really not going to become self-sufficient. I'm really not going to be able to be responsible for and accountable for myself.

 

Obama will take care of you. No need to do it yourself.

[Frank M 181]

Perhaps, but then I don't want to hear the bitching about it.

 

I think your take is that Rattlesanke is bitching about it. I don't read it that way.

[kpbuckeye 2]

so this thread was so you could b1tch and moan about being a teacher.

 

heard it.

[Frank M 181]

Being responsible and accountable for one's self should be the determining factor.

I'd love to play Madden football for a living.

I'd love to teach kids the finer techniques of dodge ball for a living.

But if I choose to do those things, I'm really not going to become self-sufficient. I'm really not going to be able to be responsible for and accountable for myself.

 

 

So, the responsible thing is to make as much money as you possibly can?

 

Thank god for people who don't think like that. We'd have no teachers, nurses, cops or a multitude of other professions if everyone did.

[Rattlesnake 0]

see, then why not just get another job? a better paying job? instead of comparing notes and figuring out how much you're getting screwed and taking the whole "whoa is me" or even (god forbid) "I'm owed" angle?

You have an education, there's nothing stopping you.

 

I understand how important teachers are.

I also understand how demanding the job is... you can't go to the freakin' bathroom or get a cup of coffee.

Frankly, that's why I didn't become a teacher (that, and the fact that I made as much money with 2 crappy part time jobs as I would have as a full time teacher).

 

But why on earth would you go to work for 40 - 50 hours a week for $30k? How can you possible think that's sane?

And I'm sorry but the whole "I love what I do" goes out the window the minute you start figuring out how much you have to work and how you're getting screwed.

 

Until there are no more qualified people that will enter the teaching profession, the pay won't go up. We're probably on/near the brink of not having qualified people in the teaching profession.

But in the end, supply and demand will sort itself out and for those of you smart and capable enough to find another occupation, you should do so.

 

But......I do love what I do, so that's the rub. I've made the decision to do what I love in spite of adverse consequences, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be treated fairly and AT LEAST get cost-of-living raises.

 

I will say that I'm currently working on a Master's in Psychology and that could easily take me out of education, if I choose to go that route. I don't know what I'll do when that time comes, though. I really enjoy working with the age group I see every day and get along great with several of my co-workers. I also love the subjects that I'm teaching.

[Rattlesnake 0]

so this thread was so you could b1tch and moan about being a teacher.

 

heard it.

 

I don't recall bringing up teaching. I merely responded to others. Nice try.

 

I wanted to see if we had a standard bell curve here, or if this site would lean slightly towards the top. I was curious. I appreciate the fact that I've gotten 68 responses to the poll.

[Rattlesnake 0]

Assumptions? Like, all rich people are bastards? Or perhaps, all rich people who want to maximize the amount of their hard-earned money they can keep are bastards?

 

I never said that all Obama supporters are "simply lazy bastards who don't want to work for themselves." Some are of course. I said in 04, I'll say again now, and I'll say again as the election approaches: I don't put a lot of weight into the soundbites that candidates say. Part of their job is to get elected, I understand that. Instead, I try to determine their underlying beliefs. With Kerry I couldn't figure that out, hence I didn't vote for him. Unfortunately for Obama, I believe that his underlying belief is that the rich should give to the poor. I also try to determine their credentials for POTUS. McCain has a ton of experience and survived years of torture, I'm pretty sure he won't freeze up in a pressure situation. Obama is young, inexperienced, and says nice werds. The potential of him having his finger on the big red button frightens me.

 

Rich bastards is more of a phrase, said in jest. I call one buddy of mine a "goofy bastard" all the time. Does that mean I think that he's a bastard? Most of my family is rich, and I love them. Great people. Pretty selfish, though. I call my one uncle a rich bastard all the time and he just laughs it off. He realizes that I don't think he's actually a bastard, or whatever word you want to use.

 

I agree, Kerry was a douche. Too bad that Dubya was even worse.

 

McCain's war experience carries no weight with me, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Using that logic, anyone who was a POW has at least some of the credentials necessary to be POTUS. McCain seems even more ignorant than Bush is, which is pretty unbelievable. Bush may be more hee-haw and socially conservative, but I see him as being slightly cunning in some respects. McCain's just a guy who has been a senator for a long time - nothing more, nothing less. Personally, I like the idea of a POTUS (who has his finger on the proverbial red button) who isn't a war-hawk that is looking for any opportunity to make a pre-emptive strike.

[Rattlesnake 0]

Being responsible and accountable for one's self should be the determining factor.

I'd love to play Madden football for a living.

I'd love to teach kids the finer techniques of dodge ball for a living.

But if I choose to do those things, I'm really not going to become self-sufficient. I'm really not going to be able to be responsible for and accountable for myself.

 

I do love how people always use the lazy-ass PE teachers as the example for education. I teach Psychology and AP Psychology, for the record. I taught AP US History for the last 4 years, but will not do it this year because the Psych program has grown pretty rapidly.

[TD Ryan2 314]

But......I do love what I do, so that's the rub. I've made the decision to do what I love in spite of adverse consequences, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be treated fairly and AT LEAST get cost-of-living raises.

 

I feel for you Rattle, but I disagree with you.

I've worked at companies before where there were no regular raises or there were unpaid shutdowns.

The fact is that if the money isn't there, the money isn't there.

If the employees don't like it or want/need more compensation, they have to go work for a different company.

And if the work environment and compensation is that bad, the company will soon find that it can not attract qualified employees.

 

This is the way the private sector works and it is the way the public sector has to start thinking.

You can't get raises just "because it's raise time".

 

 

As for Frank's comment about police and nurses... I have a number of close friends that are cops, fireman, and nurses. They are all doing pretty well financially, many of them making near $100k with overtime, details, and shift-differential pay.

[Rattlesnake 0]

The fact is that if the money isn't there, the money isn't there.

 

What about when money's there, but the corporation/school board simplies lies to the uneducated public about its whereabouts?

 

As I said, I'm taking home less (net) than I was two years ago. I'm pretty sure that I'm not just after my "annual raise". I'm after something that isn't a pay cut for once in my career.

[kpbuckeye 2]

I don't recall bringing up teaching. I merely responded to others. Nice try.

 

I wanted to see if we had a standard bell curve here, or if this site would lean slightly towards the top. I was curious. I appreciate the fact that I've gotten 68 responses to the poll.

 

yea, you seemed to have found ways to insert your whining throughout the thread.

 

I do. A buddy of mine whose family income is over $260K compared hours with me 2 years ago. He works in the business world, as do most of you, based on past conversations. He counted his hours for a 12-month period and so did I. My count was higher, and it wasn't even close.

 

 

Those who can, do. those who can't.........teach and b1tch about it.

[TD Ryan2 314]

I do love how people always use the lazy-ass PE teachers as the example for education. I teach Psychology and AP Psychology, for the record. I taught AP US History for the last 4 years, but will not do it this year because the Psych program has grown pretty rapidly.

 

my dodgeball comment wasn't intended to be an attack on the PE teachers but I understand how it came out that way.

 

Again, don't get me wrong Rattlesnake. I applaud you for what you do. History is underrated. Kids need more of it. They need to put some sort of "civics" back into school too.

But until the whole, "I do the job because I love it" stuff stops and all the truly qualified teachers decide that they won't teach anymore, things won't change.

The qualified (or good) teacherswill be lumped in the the "lazy Phys Ed" types.

And the kids know which ones are which... it's no mystery. Yet they all have to be under the same contractual agreement.

[TD Ryan2 314]

What about when money's there, but the corporation/school board simplies lies to the uneducated public about its whereabouts?

It's no different than when you see the CEO and Board of Directors getting their year end bonuses when no raises are given out.

And the answer is the same, you go work for a different company.

 

The thing that kills me about the teachers is that they do have an education.

We all pretty much agree that education is the key.

 

When you get some poor guy working on a manufacturing floor and he's been there for 10+ years and worked himself up to $40k per year with 10 years worth of raises, he's screwed when the company stops paying, moves locations, etc. The only way he gets back to that $40k is by doing another 10 years at a new manufacturing job *IF* he can even find one.

Teachers have an education. They can read, write, and think critically. They should be pretty decent public speakers. Teachers, unlike the manufacturing guy, have the toolkit needed to change or improve if they want to.

[Rattlesnake 0]

Teachers have an education. They can read, write, and think critically. They should be pretty decent public speakers. Teachers, unlike the manufacturing guy, have the toolkit needed to change or improve if they want to.

 

Is it the teacher's fault that the manufacturing guy didn't go out and work his ass off to get that toolkit (college)??? I mean, you seem to assume that teachers were handed this education. Some people, many people, just seem to have no idea what teachers have to do now in order to get licensed. Again, many things have changed. I agree with these changes, for the record. It shouldn't be easy to be a teacher.

 

As I just said in two other threads.......some of these people are thinking about the horrible teachers they had back in the day. I understand that. I had a lot of bad teachers, too. Things have changed a lot. Some people choose to dog teachers and blame us for everything and I'm certainly not going to change that, even though it's unfortunate. I'm sure it's very beneficial, however.

[edjr 5,587]

I'm starting another new job tomorrow. It's actually within walking distance of where I live.

 

My chick and I make a lot and we have no kids or dishwasher

[yambo24 0]

$400K - which equals approximately 275K euro.

 

Voting for Obama.

[PistonSteve 0]

Um....Rattlesnake...as a fellow teacher, please quit bringing up your complaints about the salaries teachers make and the hours they work. As an education person, I assume you have seen by now that your comments do not result in any sort of sympathetic reaction. Rather, they tend to make people think even worse about educators. As I've said elsewhere on this site, nobody should complain about their income. This is a free country and we all have hte opportunity to educate ourselves in order to go into whatever career path we choose....complaining about what you make and how much you work comes across as a whining a$$.

 

TIA

[Call me...Tim? 0]

Both McCain and Obama suck, but the liberal judges that Obama will appoint are what scares me about him. At least McCain will not put abortion mill judges on the stand, liberal welfare state judges, and gay marriage legalizing evil b@stards as judges.

 

Be more concerned about judges who think the Commerce Clause gives the US Congress the authority to legislate on any matter (Breyer is an example). Of course, those are the judges that Obama is more likely to appoint. Which is why I'll vote for McCain if I can find the will to participate in this corrupt process.

[edjr 5,587]

It's no different than when you see the CEO and Board of Directors getting their year end bonuses when no raises are given out.

And the answer is the same, you go work for a different company.

 

The thing that kills me about the teachers is that they do have an education.

We all pretty much agree that education is the key.

 

When you get some poor guy working on a manufacturing floor and he's been there for 10+ years and worked himself up to $40k per year with 10 years worth of raises, he's screwed when the company stops paying, moves locations, etc. The only way he gets back to that $40k is by doing another 10 years at a new manufacturing job *IF* he can even find one.

Teachers have an education. They can read, write, and think critically. They should be pretty decent public speakers. Teachers, unlike the manufacturing guy, have the toolkit needed to change or improve if they want to.

 

 

I have no education and I make more than 90% of teachers.

 

Add in my side business and DJing and I should be rich. Where the fock is it all?

[CantTouchThis 23]

Me? I am a 19 y/o college student, i might make 10K this year, next year could potentially be my first year when i make some true money, potentially more than 20K.

 

My family, for many years they made, with both parents working, between 55 and 75K, with 4 kids that went basically no where other than a home, food, some luxuries, and so on. Then there were a couple really tough years, now my dad works 80 hours a week and mom just finished a program in billing where she could find a good job. Dad pulls down 90K w/80hr weeks, once mom find a job they will be pulling down 120+k, and with all the kids grown could actually save some money for retirement...considering they have 0 saved and they are in their 50s....