Starting to understand Ron Paul's economic thoughts

[naomi 360]

This whole 111 minute documentary film is worth watching. It begins by going into income tax, but at 57:11 it starts going into the Federal Reserve.

America: Freedom to Fascism

 

"I sincerely believe the banking institutions having the issuing power of money, are more dangerous to liberty than standing armies." -Thomas Jefferson

 

I've head it mentioned that the Fed Reserve isn't constitutional, but I thought it would be defended by those who see constitutional flexibility for having it, and since the constitution allows for some flexibility, the argument would go in circles.

 

The treasury department alone should oversee much of what the FRS does, and congress didn't have the right to relegate authority to it instead. We don't and can't really know who runs it. The only thing Federal about the Federal Reserve is the word being in it's name. It's logical to assume its private owners run it and they're not elected officials, nor are they officials with constitutionally vested authority. That's aside from the fact money is issued without real backing to it. The more national debt we have, the more the Federal Reserve profits.

 

Even though most Americans seem unaware of the current plight of the US dollar, especially in relation to the Euro, there is definitely a dollar crisis in the world economy because of the immense size of the international debt of America. America has now become the largest debtor in history, owing somewhere between $70 and $100 Trillion. The reckless deficit spending by our government, coupled with Federal Reserve currency devaluation, has become one of the greatest threats facing America today. Because Congress is routinely spending more than it can tax or borrow and the Fed is routinely printing “Fiat Money” (Dollars backed by nothing) out of thin air to make up the difference, this classic “one-two punch” threatens to further destroy the value of our dollars.

 

Spending less now isn't the answer, though it's certainly important to do. We'll never truly get on the other side of the dynamic by continuing to vest authority in the extra-governmental Federal Reserve. That's against it's interests. That challenge would be the real challenge to undesirable status quo.

Ron Paul addressing congress about the fed reserve

 

Abraham Lincoln predicted that when the money power was aggregated into the hands of a few (he sensed it coming back in 1863), that's when the republic would be destroyed.

 

 

Ron Paul to Ben Bernake:

Transparency in monetary policy is a goal we should all support. I’ve often wondered why Congress has so willingly given up this prerogative over monetary policy. Congress, in essence, has ceded total control of the value of our money to a secretive central bank. Congress created the Federal Reserve, yet it had no Constitutional authority to do so. We forget that those powers not explicitly granted to the Congress by the Constitution are inherently denied to the Congress. And thus, the authority to establish a central bank is never given. Of course, Jefferson and Hamilton had that debate early on and the debate, seemingly, was settled in 1913.

 

But transparency and oversight are something else and they’re worth considering. Congress, although not by law, essentially has given up all its oversight responsibilities over the Fed. There are no true audits. Congress knows nothing of the conversations, the plans, and the action taken in concert with the other central banks. We get less and less information regarding the money supply each year, especially now that we don’t even have access to M3 statistics. The role the Fed plays in the President’s secretive working group on financial markets goes essentially unnoticed by Congress. The Federal Reserve shows no willingness to inform Congress voluntarily about how often the working group meets, what action it takes that affects the financial markets, or why it takes these actions.

 

But all of these actions directed by the Federal Reserve altered the purchasing power of our money; and that purchasing power is always reduced. The dollar today is worth only four cents compared to the dollar that the Federal Reserve started with in 1913. This has significant consequences on our economy and our political stability. All paper currencies are vulnerable to collapse and history is replete with examples of great suffering caused by these collapses, especially to the nation’s poor and the middle class. This can lead to political turmoil as well.

[RLLD 4,275]

If you like being scared, read about the Triffin dilemma.....

 

Then consider the importance of the emergence of the Euro for which Triffin has not foreseen......if the ECB manages to wrench the dollar from the backing currency, and replace it with the Euro, we are absolutely focked, and I mean it.....FOCKED in a very real way.

[BLS 314]

When you finally grasp the concept that the Federal Reserve is basically the bank to the US, and now even the world, and couple that with the fact that now the US government owns a portion of many of our banks, along with a giant portion of the mortgages in this country, you can start to realize that there's the very real opportunity here for the US government to OWN the United States private companies and land.

 

THAT to me is scary. Very scary.

 

It's all made possible by removal from the Gold Standard and creation of the Federal Reserve.

[naomi 360]

When you finally grasp the concept that the Federal Reserve is basically the bank to the US, and now even the world, and couple that with the fact that now the US government owns a portion of many of our banks, along with a giant portion of the mortgages in this country, you can start to realize that there's the very real opportunity here for the US government to OWN the United States private companies and land.

 

THAT to me is scary. Very scary.

 

It's all made possible by removal from the Gold Standard and creation of the Federal Reserve.

 

 

Bump, because I thought I should put this in simpler terms. I asked my brother why the fed reserve is thought to be unconstitutional since he has agreed with the thought. He offered an answer that isn't the actual one, and I can't blame him for it because I didn't really know either.

 

For the people who could use it in a nutshell: The constitution gives congress the right to issue money and regulate it's value. Congress turned that over to the privately owned Federal Reserve, which we know regulates and tweaks our nation's finances. They've also helped finance our endeavors, and collect interest from doing so.

 

Obviously the design of the constitution was that congress would be exercising its authority there. It's like if the President hands over his powers to someone else. The thought in defense would be akin to...well they're his powers, so he has the power to define how they're carried out, including handing them off to external powers. That's a constitutional FAIL. Congress is supposed to be representative of the people, unlike who the heck actually owns the federal reserve. The design was for them to actively exercise that authority they were given.

 

Relating to what you're saying BLS, I read (haven't confirmed it, maybe you know) that the Fed's owners actually respect having real backing and do own gold. Their gold doesn't belong to the United States though. Some (maybe all?) of it did at some point, but it is theirs. If we collapsed, they would have real true fiscal power, because their money can be honored. I don't think that will happen, but if it's true, it allows for a few to make deals with each other, and that's a good one world scenerio in terms of how the real power is truly concentrated. That's the more conspiratorial conclusions, but the system we do recognize is certainly corrupt in comparison to intentions.

 

This is how someone interviewed in the film put it:

 

It's like organized crime, and you can call the Democrats the "Gambino's" and Republicans the "Genovese's". They (who actually owns the Fed) treat it like one big craps game, and while they might shoot each other once in a while, if anything threatens to upset the whole game they all rally around to protect it. It's just like the mob in New York, and while they may fight about who runs the garbage-racket, they don't want the fact it's a "racket" to be exposed.

[Me_2006 14]

It's starting to creep me out that Ron Paul is right about all this stuff and yet they all just laughed at him and called him a clown and tried to make him look nuts. He may very well be nuts, but he's also right. And that's starting to be a hell of a lot more than can be said about the rest of them.

 

 

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but that's weird.

[BLS 314]

Bump, because I thought I should put this in simpler terms. I asked my brother why the fed reserve is thought to be unconstitutional since he has agreed with the thought. He offered an answer that isn't the actual one, and I can't blame him for it because I didn't really know either.

 

For the people who could use it in a nutshell: The constitution gives congress the right to issue money and regulate it's value. Congress turned that over to the privately owned Federal Reserve, which we know regulates and tweaks our nation's finances. They've also helped finance our endeavors, and collect interest from doing so.

 

Obviously the design of the constitution was that congress would be exercising its authority there. It's like if the President hands over his powers to someone else. The thought in defense would be akin to...well they're his powers, so he has the power to define how they're carried out, including handing them off to external powers. That's a constitutional FAIL. Congress is supposed to be representative of the people, unlike who the heck actually owns the federal reserve. The design was for them to actively exercise that authority they were given.

 

Relating to what you're saying BLS, I read (haven't confirmed it, maybe you know) that the Fed's owners actually respect having real backing and do own gold. Their gold doesn't belong to the United States though. Some (maybe all?) of it did at some point, but it is theirs. If we collapsed, they would have real true fiscal power, because their money can be honored. I don't think that will happen, but if it's true, it allows for a few to make deals with each other, and that's a good one world scenerio in terms of how the real power is truly concentrated. That's the more conspiratorial conclusions, but the system we do recognize is certainly corrupt in comparison to intentions.

 

This is how someone interviewed in the film put it:

 

It's like organized crime, and you can call the Democrats the "Gambino's" and Republicans the "Genovese's". They (who actually owns the Fed) treat it like one big craps game, and while they might shoot each other once in a while, if anything threatens to upset the whole game they all rally around to protect it. It's just like the mob in New York, and while they may fight about who runs the garbage-racket, they don't want the fact it's a "racket" to be exposed.

 

I'm IMPRESSED!!

You've been doing some reading. I love it.

 

The thing is....realizing this, I started doing some research on gold's value vs. the value of the dollar.

And in my findings so far, it's quite simple. The more the value of the dollar drops, the more the value of gold increases.

It appears to be directly related too. My advice to others out there would be; if you believe we might actually see a depression or severe recession, buying gold is a great way to guarantee your wealth. When dollars become so overinflated that they are basically worthless, gold will still buy you very real things in barter.

 

Naomi, nobody really knows where the gold from Fort Knox is. But it is widely believed the Fed has annexed it, and will not allow an audit of it.

I don't know about the Fed's owners....I have done some reading on 'who owns the Fed' and according to some places, it's actually bank presidents and even the common person can purchase 'shares' of the Fed, at a fixed interest rate of 6% annually, but you cannot sell it or trade it for other stocks.

I'm not sure what the 'angle' there is...but I'm sure it's well thought out.

 

The reality is the last President that talked about abolishing the Fed was John F. Kennedy, and it was in a bill he proposed just 3 weeks before he was assassinated. You can google it if you like.

 

I ain't saying.......but.........

 

The Fed runs our finances. Period. They basically own this F'ing country, and I think it's ###### that they can just print money, loan it to banks so they can loan it to us, AND make interest on the loans to the banks. I wish I had a printing press and could just loan out the product for interest.

 

You just can't make this sh1t up.

 

I applaud you for reading up on this stuff. It will change the WHOLE way you look at things. Especially money and credit (mainly borrowing to buy things).

[BLS 314]

It's starting to creep me out that Ron Paul is right about all this stuff and yet they all just laughed at him and called him a clown and tried to make him look nuts. He may very well be nuts, but he's also right. And that's starting to be a hell of a lot more than can be said about the rest of them.

 

 

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but that's weird.

 

 

As I've gotten older, I have tried to learn not to say "I told you so" because it actually turns people off to what they are basically now buying.

I applaud you for noticing that Ron is right alot.

 

If you really read up on his beliefs, you'll find alot of things that make total sense.

There is still a bit of him that buys into conspiracy theories. I've seen videos of him where he stated all the pieces are in place for a 'police state'.

At first I went "oh sh1t....here it is...he IS crazy".

 

Then I read about the Patriotic Act.

Then I read about the Military Commissions Act.

Then I read about Posse Comitatus and it's recent violation in Georgia.

Then I read about FEMA having the right to suspend all civil liberties in a 'time of crisis'.

Then I read about Presdential Directive #51 giving the President the right to declare martial fuckin law in the US!!!!

 

Then I realized....Ron may not be nuts.

[Blitzen 1]

I'm IMPRESSED!!

You've been doing some reading. I love it.

 

The thing is....realizing this, I started doing some research on gold's value vs. the value of the dollar.

And in my findings so far, it's quite simple. The more the value of the dollar drops, the more the value of gold increases.

It appears to be directly related too. My advice to others out there would be; if you believe we might actually see a depression or severe recession, buying gold is a great way to guarantee your wealth. When dollars become so overinflated that they are basically worthless, gold will still buy you very real things in barter.

 

Naomi, nobody really knows where the gold from Fort Knox is. But it is widely believed the Fed has annexed it, and will not allow an audit of it.

I don't know about the Fed's owners....I have done some reading on 'who owns the Fed' and according to some places, it's actually bank presidents and even the common person can purchase 'shares' of the Fed, at a fixed interest rate of 6% annually, but you cannot sell it or trade it for other stocks.

I'm not sure what the 'angle' there is...but I'm sure it's well thought out.

 

The reality is the last President that talked about abolishing the Fed was John F. Kennedy, and it was in a bill he proposed just 3 weeks before he was assassinated. You can google it if you like.

 

I ain't saying.......but.........

 

The Fed runs our finances. Period. They basically own this F'ing country, and I think it's ###### that they can just print money, loan it to banks so they can loan it to us, AND make interest on the loans to the banks. I wish I had a printing press and could just loan out the product for interest.

 

You just can't make this sh1t up.

 

I applaud you for reading up on this stuff. It will change the WHOLE way you look at things. Especially money and credit (mainly borrowing to buy things).

 

I guess my question would be what do you want instead of the current system? A government department running the Fed (most people would say that's a bad idea)? Independent banks all producing currency (which has failed miserably in the past)?

[tikigods 76]

All good points.

 

I've been on the Ron Paul bandwagon for a long time. NH is part of the Libertarian "Free State" project. We're slowly making gains in state and local politics. Too bad the rest of the country is so polarized on the two political parties that keep on spending money with little or no results.

 

1) Abolish the 16th Amendment

2) Base all decisions on Constitutional law

3) All the markets to sort themselves out

4) Leave the UN

5) End Free Trade Agreements

[BLS 314]

I guess my question would be what do you want instead of the current system? A government department running the Fed (most people would say that's a bad idea)? Independent banks all producing currency (which has failed miserably in the past)?

 

 

There would be no Fed. Congress would control the money supply as it should per the Constitution.

One could intelligently argue that our current system is a miserable failure as well.

 

Money needs to be based on gold and silver because it would eliminate SO many of the current problems.

There would NEVER be a housing bubble because there wouldn't be so much credit available. Greed will always exist. You can't legislate it. Period.

 

I would just like to see fiscal responsibility from our government for one thing. And that would HAVE to happen if there were no Fed.

If you can't afford it, you can't just print it. Period.

 

Interesting question though. thanks for the opportunity to answer you and not judge me.

[BLS 314]

All good points.

 

I've been on the Ron Paul bandwagon for a long time. NH is part of the Libertarian "Free State" project. We're slowly making gains in state and local politics. Too bad the rest of the country is so polarized on the two political parties that keep on spending money with little or no results.

 

1) Abolish the 16th Amendment

2) Base all decisions on Constitutional law

3) All the markets to sort themselves out

4) Leave the UN

5) End Free Trade Agreements

 

 

Tiki...you rock. I wish more people were on board with abolishing the 16th, and you wouldn't think it would be that hard to get people to buy into it, but I'm amazed every day at how much people just don't give a sh1t.

[Me_2006 14]

Tiki...you rock. I wish more people were on board with abolishing the 16th, and you wouldn't think it would be that hard to get people to buy into it, but I'm amazed every day at how much people just don't give a sh1t.

I blame Pollock.

 

 

 

 

Seriously though, has anyone ever actually heard a good explanation for giving Congress the power to just tax when they decide they should? What purpose does that serve?

[BLS 314]

I blame Pollock.

 

 

 

 

Seriously though, has anyone ever actually heard a good explanation for giving Congress the power to just tax when they decide they should? What purpose does that serve?

Ah, we've got an informed member. Well done with Pollock.

 

The 'conspiracy' argument is that the income tax was devised to pay the interest on the debt to the Federal Reserve, which is why no one ever challenges it. It's an unapportioned tax, therefore unconstitutional.

[naomi 360]

What Jefferson thought was the greatest affront to liberty is exactly what we have going on now.

 

We stopped mining for gold after getting 19% of it. Almost a side thought, but I don't know what explains Texas in the 1980's. A lot of oil drilling was just shut down. It's like foreign dependence was favored for some reason, but I'm guessing an alternative (likely false) explanation was given at the time.

 

It seems, considering everything mentioned, that if we wanted to truly revolt, we would need to independently go after that gold. But maybe going after it independent of the government is illegal? And if not, it probably would become so. We don't have another land to go to and start anew, we had the one chance . Then even if we did, we couldn't win a war against just one of the major governments as they have the overwhelming weapons advantage. What could really be done? IF there's effective concentration of real power with a few, how do you revolt against that absent any true wealth or any feasible means of defending yourself. It's a defeatist outlook, but it seems to be the realistic one.

[Me_2006 14]

Ah, we've got an informed member. Well done with Pollock.

 

The 'conspiracy' argument is that the income tax was devised to pay the interest on the debt to the Federal Reserve, which is why no one ever challenges it. It's an unapportioned tax, therefore unconstitutional.

Kind of a history dork, so I learned all the junk behind how the amendments came to be.

 

 

 

What I'm saying though, is what did they tell everyone to make us buy that? How do they just come out and say "Congress can tax you whatever they decide to, even if it doesnt make sense" and no one stand up and say "Uh, fock you. No they can't." ?

[naomi 360]

Ah, we've got an informed member. Well done with Pollock.

 

The 'conspiracy' argument is that the income tax was devised to pay the interest on the debt to the Federal Reserve, which is why no one ever challenges it. It's an unapportioned tax, therefore unconstitutional.

 

The video I linked to alleges that income tax revenues do effectively go to that. They don't go to infrastructure or services. So if that's the theory, and that's what's effectively happening...

[BLS 314]

Kind of a history dork, so I learned all the junk behind how the amendments came to be.

 

 

 

What I'm saying though, is what did they tell everyone to make us buy that? How do they just come out and say "Congress can tax you whatever they decide to, even if it doesnt make sense" and no one stand up and say "Uh, fock you. No they can't." ?

 

 

Good question. I don't know the answer to be honest.

Nowadays nobody knows any different. They just seem to comply.

But I'll tell you what...if everyone's 401k's go down the toilet, which is a very real possibility in my world, I think you see some huge changes coming.

Our government doesn't scare me as much as China's does. they're gonna want their money one way or another.

 

Revolution in this country is inevtiable, but I doubt we'll see it in our lifetimes.

The 2nd Amendment was written expressly for this reason. Not for hunting, nor for home protection.

 

What do you think? How do you think they passed the 16th? I'm assuming like most all other major Acts or Amendments; under false pretenses.

Just like SS....how do you think that went over back in the day?

[tikigods 76]

Ah, we've got an informed member. Well done with Pollock.

 

The 'conspiracy' argument is that the income tax was devised to pay the interest on the debt to the Federal Reserve, which is why no one ever challenges it. It's an unapportioned tax, therefore unconstitutional.

 

Bingo

[BLS 314]

What Jefferson thought was the greatest affront to liberty is exactly what we have going on now.

 

We stopped mining for gold after getting 19% of it. Almost a side thought, but I don't know what explains Texas in the 1980's. A lot of oil drilling was just shut down. It's like foreign dependence was favored for some reason, but I'm guessing an alternative (likely false) explanation was given at the time.

 

It seems, considering everything mentioned, that if we wanted to truly revolt, we would need to independently go after that gold. But maybe going after it independent of the government is illegal? And if not, it probably would become so. We don't have another land to go to and start anew, we had the one chance . Then even if we did, we couldn't win a war against just one of the major governments as they have the overwhelming weapons advantage. What could really be done? IF there's effective concentration of real power with a few, how do you revolt against that absent any true wealth or any feasible means of defending yourself. It's a defeatist outlook, but it seems to be the realistic one.

 

If you dont' mind, I'd like to ask you how long you've been reading on this stuff?

You seem very knowledgeable.

 

How do you revolt? I guess I don't know. Legally, the smart way is to elect Constitutional representatives.

Ron Paul has started that movement at the local levels with www.campaignforliberty.com.

One day, he may end up being the true statesman I believe he is trying to be. The question is will people care?

With the photo of the turnout at the Obama rally in St. Louis, I have to believe we are up against a huge hill.

Everybody wants something from the government. I just want them to leave me alone and stop taxing the dogshit out of me.

[BLS 314]

The video I linked to alleges that income tax revenues do effectively go to that. They don't go to infrastructure or services. So if that's the theory, and that's what's effectively happening...

 

 

That means we have to remove the power of the Federal Reserve in some fashion, or we're still going to remain slaves to fiat money and credit.

Either you have to go back to a gold standard, which renders the Fed useless, or you have to overthrow our govt.

 

Either situation is dire....but I'd put my money on going back to the gold standard before a revolution.

[BLS 314]

Bingo

 

Great. Three of us get it. (gotta include the well-read Naomi into this)

 

We only have 299,999,997 people to go.

 

[naomi 360]

If you dont' mind, I'd like to ask you how long you've been reading on this stuff?

You seem very knowledgeable.

 

How do you revolt? I guess I don't know. Legally, the smart way is to elect Constitutional representatives.

Ron Paul has started that movement at the local levels with www.campaignforliberty.com.

One day, he may end up being the true statesman I believe he is trying to be. The question is will people care?

With the photo of the turnout at the Obama rally in St. Louis, I have to believe we are up against a huge hill.

Everybody wants something from the government. I just want them to leave me alone and stop taxing the dogshit out of me.

 

The Federal Reserve stuff was just last night. My mom grew up in California's gold country, and so going off the gold standard and shutting down mining has always been a topic people from there are on top of.

 

I want to think electing people like Ron Paul could be an answer, but I think there's too many factors against that happening, and most of all, of course those actually steering the course will oppose it, and most likely have the ability to do so successfully. Maybe there's a reason our public educational system is really crappy, and it's not simply because we're a large country and all that.

 

If we tried non-peaceful revolt I don't see how we could get anywhere. I can completely understand the importance of the second amendment, but the weapons capabilities the government has would completely own what armed revolt would be possible. This sounds depressing, but I'm throwing it out hoping someone can somehow still see a viable course of action.

[Savage Beast 1]

How do you revolt? I guess I don't know.

 

The only way to overthrow the US federal government is to get the Generals of the military on your side.

 

If this were to happen, I would join the revolution.

 

I'm done with the US Federal Government, which is why I will no longer be voting ever again. I can't with good conscious vote for anybody who runs for the federal government these days, including my own local county and state politicians. They are all liars and thieves, and very much overall a-holes.

[BLS 314]

The Federal Reserve stuff was just last night. My mom grew up in California's gold country, and so going off the gold standard and shutting down mining has always been a topic people from there are on top of.

 

I want to think electing people like Ron Paul could be an answer, but I think there's too many factors against that happening, and most of all, of course those actually steering the course will oppose it, and most likely have the ability to do so successfully. Maybe there's a reason our public educational system is really crappy, and it's not simply because we're a large country and all that.

 

If we tried non-peaceful revolt I don't see how we could get anywhere. I can completely understand the importance of the second amendment, but the weapons capabilities the government has would completely own what armed revolt would be possible. This sounds depressing, but I'm throwing it out hoping someone can still see a viable course of action.

 

Well, if people actually elected Ron Paul, he would be killed within the first year. I have no doubts about it.

I don't think he does either.

 

But what he would espouse would be enough to get people thinking for themselves.

You better believe that there would be opposition...which is why unless we don't get involved, nothing will change.

And yes, it's sad, and it's very hard, to have even the people you're trying to help fight you tooth and nail, not to mention the establishment with all the laws in their favor keeping guys like Paul down.

 

But what I've come to realize is that truth is more powerful than any law or group of people.

People yearn for truth and honesty...and that cannot be counted like money or legislated. And with the way our country is going, it's not hard to see why. All we ever hear about is some corrupt politician or wasted bureaucracy.

 

Either we have to slowly erode the 'hill' that the politicians have laid to keep them in power, or we have to physcially take back our country.

Disinformation is the key......the government and mainstreem media control everything....believe it or not.

 

But if people can convince Joe Army from down the street, or your brother or sister, or whomever that they are sworn to protect the Constitution from both foreign AND domestic enemies, then we can only hope they will see the light and realize if they use their superior weapons on their fellow Americans, it is NOT defending the Constitution, but quite the opposite.

 

I dont' know if my neighbors son, who's in the Army could shoot me on the street of my hometown if I opposed them.

But I dont' like my chances either.

 

That being said...our military isn't even 1/3rd of 1% of the total population of this country.

Thanks to the 2nd amendment....there are a shitton of gun toting folks out there. I'm all about keeping that rule intact.

 

If and when the 2nd is attacked from our Govt....that's when I start to worry.

[Savage Beast 1]

If and when the 2nd is attacked from our Govt....that's when I start to worry.

 

If and when?

 

Where have you been the last 30 years?

 

The Democrats are trying very hard every day to get rid of the 2nd.

[BLS 314]

The only way to overthrow the US federal government is to get the Generals of the military on your side.

 

If this were to happen, I would join the revolution.

 

I'm done with the US Federal Government, which is why I will no longer be voting ever again. I can't with good conscious vote for anybody who runs for the federal government these days, including my own local county and state politicians. They are all liars and thieves, and very much overall a-holes.

 

I agree, but this is where disinformation comes in to play.

Just like with the Patriot Act (which I was ALL FOR BTW...until I learned), they use current events to circumvent the Constitution in order to 'keep you safe'.

 

I think the country would become truly divided right down the line if there was a revolution. There are alot of pansies out there. Trust me.

But let me tell you something...when the local grocery stores are out of food and Walmart doesn't have any more supplies and people are required to grow their own food and provide their own means of transportation, sh1t would change in a hurry.

 

Fortunately, it's the liberals who seem to WANT socialism in this country, would be the first to die off because they don't seem to know how to do anything but b1tch.

[BLS 314]

If and when?

 

Where have you been the last 30 years?

 

The Democrats are trying very hard every day to get rid of the 2nd.

 

I disagree. I realize it's on their list, but they know how to pick their battles.

The NRA is a huge lobbyist. They will use Obama's Presidency to put in more reliance on government first. Then once people are reliant on them, they will threaten to take away those entitlements unless guns go away. That will be the big battle.

 

Freedom is dying.....but it's a slow process. They can't start by fighting the biggest guy on the block.

They'll pick the smaller dude first...and work their way up.

[Savage Beast 1]

I think the country would become truly divided right down the line if there was a revolution. There are alot of pansies out there. Trust me.

But let me tell you something...when the local grocery stores are out of food and Walmart doesn't have any more supplies and people are required to grow their own food and provide their own means of transportation, sh1t would change in a hurry.

 

This would cause mass chaos.

 

Most folks these days don't own hunting guns, so they have no clue how to hunt their own food, grow their own food, or even fish for their own food. They are 100% dependent on the grocery store. They also like you said are pansies, and are 100% dependent on the police to defend them from pilledgers and rapists, because of them being unarmed and overall pacifist wimps, who always let others fight for them.

 

Only about 25% of the citizens of the USA could fend for themselves these days. I sure am glad I grew up poor, in the woods of Oklahoma, where my dad taught me to farm, hunt, fish, and raise livestock. A country boy can survive with literally nothing.

[BLS 314]

This would cause mass chaos.

 

Most folks these days don't own hunting guns, so they have no clue how to hunt their own food, grow their own food, or even fish for their own food. They are 100% dependent on the grocery store. They also like you said are pansies, and are 100% dependent on the police to defend them from pilledgers and rapists, because of them being unarmed and overall pacifist wimps, who always let others fight for them.

 

Only about 25% of the citizens of the USA could fend for themselves these days. I sure am glad I grew up poor, in the woods of Oklahoma, where my dad taught me to farm, hunt, fish, and raise livestock. A country boy can survive with literally nothing.

 

Amen.

 

I grew up learning how to hunt and to fish and how to raise a garden.

To this day my grandmother and mother always can a bunch of food every summer. (although I really don't know how to do it)

 

If winter hit here and there was no natural gas or grocery stores, there would be mass death and rioting.

I however can cut down trees, build a stove out of a 55 gallon drum, hunt and gather my own food.

But I wouldn't say for a second it would be easy.

 

There are so many people out there who would have NO clue it's scary. We're so dependant on society and I truly am afraid our way of life as we know it could be devistated by a economic collapse.

 

Thinning of the herd if you will, as far as I'm concerned.

[naomi 360]

Well, if people actually elected Ron Paul, he would be killed within the first year. I have no doubts about it.

I don't think he does either.

 

But what he would espouse would be enough to get people thinking for themselves.

You better believe that there would be opposition...which is why unless we don't get involved, nothing will change.

And yes, it's sad, and it's very hard, to have even the people you're trying to help fight you tooth and nail, not to mention the establishment with all the laws in their favor keeping guys like Paul down.

 

But what I've come to realize is that truth is more powerful than any law or group of people.

People yearn for truth and honesty...and that cannot be counted like money or legislated. And with the way our country is going, it's not hard to see why. All we ever hear about is some corrupt politician or wasted bureaucracy.

 

Either we have to slowly erode the 'hill' that the politicians have laid to keep them in power, or we have to physcially take back our country.

Disinformation is the key......the government and mainstreem media control everything....believe it or not.

 

But if people can convince Joe Army from down the street, or your brother or sister, or whomever that they are sworn to protect the Constitution from both foreign AND domestic enemies, then we can only hope they will see the light and realize if they use their superior weapons on their fellow Americans, it is NOT defending the Constitution, but quite the opposite.

 

I dont' know if my neighbors son, who's in the Army could shoot me on the street of my hometown if I opposed them.

But I dont' like my chances either.

 

That being said...our military isn't even 1/3rd of 1% of the total population of this country.

Thanks to the 2nd amendment....there are a shitton of gun toting folks out there. I'm all about keeping that rule intact.

 

If and when the 2nd is attacked from our Govt....that's when I start to worry.

 

Personally, as crazy as this will sound, I think we're heading into the end. Yes people have thought it before, yes they've argued the factors were there before, but they have never been there like they are now. Everything down to plans for the temple to be built in Jerusalem to having the technology that would be needed to account for virtually everyone, and a lot more. Anyway, not just sharing that to share it, but I also believe God is sovereign. If there is any validity to the bible, then everything about that time will actually be catalyzed by him. BLS there's a TON to break down about prophecy, in retrospect, and prospect in light of how things are going. It's not something to approach as fact, just observe. A lot of people abuse prophecy and say x,y,z fits it, but that shouldn't distract from what actually does. It's really interesting, but I know people want to throw the baby out with the bathwater because of how religion has played a role in societies. Therefore the bible as a (let alone, any) measure of truth goes out of people's minds. If anything find it interesting that a lot of our framers understood that. There's a lot of quotes that can be provided to show that. It's humanistic thinking that says God can't have a hand in human suffering. He said he'd come back to judge, and there's going to be a struggle in the end. Now that I probably sound like a complete nut to you guys (with the possible exception of Savage Beast), I still do believe that you have to act based on your conscience. Even if things necessarily play out to usher in that time, if there's such a time (mentioning the ifs for the people who find the train of thought nutty...) a person has to go by their conviction of what's just. Pursue that...or even just a rational idea of how society should work in order to provide lasting personal prosperity to others so you can enjoy it too, without opposition.

 

To be honest, things do strike me as inevitably getting worse, and people's idea of how a good society can be set up will morph into something else. Since we've seen how different forms of government work, and we know what = FAIL, when it comes to the joining of governments, it will be new territory and welcomed. The philosophy of how it should operate people won't see opposed by anything in history. Anyway, think that's what has more feasibility, but I like your passion, not being defeatist, and agree we should act according to conscience, period. So even if it seems like your efforts are destined to not win out, at least try.

[Me_2006 14]

Amen.

 

I grew up learning how to hunt and to fish and how to raise a garden.

To this day my grandmother and mother always can a bunch of food every summer. (although I really don't know how to do it)

 

If winter hit here and there was no natural gas or grocery stores, there would be mass death and rioting.

I however can cut down trees, build a stove out of a 55 gallon drum, hunt and gather my own food.

But I wouldn't say for a second it would be easy.

 

There are so many people out there who would have NO clue it's scary. We're so dependant on society and I truly am afraid our way of life as we know it could be devistated by a economic collapse.

 

Thinning of the herd if you will, as far as I'm concerned.

When shiat goes down, I'll meet you halfway in Ohio or something. Deal?

[BLS 314]

Personally, as crazy as this will sound, I think we're heading into the end. Yes people have thought it before, yes they've argued the factors were there before, but they have never been there like they are now. Everything down to plans for the temple to be built in Jerusalem to having the technology that would be needed to account for virtually everyone, and a lot more. Anyway, not just sharing that to share it, but I also believe God is sovereign. If there is any validity to the bible, then everything about that time will actually be catalyzed by him. BLS there's a TON to break down about prophecy, in retrospect, and prospect in light of how things are going. It's not something to approach as fact, just observe. A lot of people abuse prophecy and say x,y,z fits it, but that shouldn't distract from what actually does. It's really interesting, but I know people want to throw the baby out with the bathwater because of how religion has played a role in societies. Therefore the bible as a (let alone, any) measure of truth goes out of people's minds. If anything find it interesting that a lot of our framers understood that. There's a lot of quotes that can be provided to show that. It's humanistic thinking that says God can't have a hand in human suffering. He said he'd come back to judge, and there's going to be a struggle in the end. Now that I probably sound like a complete nut to you guys (with the possible exception of Savage Beast), I still do believe that you have to act based on your conscience. Even if things necessarily play out to usher in that time, if there's such a time (mentioning the ifs for the people who find the train of thought nutty...) a person has to go by their conviction of what's just. Pursue that...or even just a rational idea of how society should work in order to provide lasting personal prosperity to others so you can enjoy it too, without opposition.

 

To be honest, things do strike me as inevitably getting worse, and people's idea of how a good society can be set up will morph into something else. Since we've seen how different forms of government work, and we know what = FAIL, when it comes to the joining of governments, it will be new territory and welcomed. The philosophy of how it should operate people won't see opposed by anything in history. Anyway, think that's what has more feasibility, but I like your passion, not being defeatist, and agree we should act according to conscience, period. So even if it seems like your efforts are destined to not win out, at least try.

 

 

Personally, I don't adopt religion. In any fashion.

I have a hard time buying something that preaches peace, love, friendship and the right to life (roe vs. wade issue for example) and turns around and supports the Republican party with their pre-emptive wars (IE Killing of thousands) in another country.

 

If life is precious, isn't all life precious?

 

It's a bunch of fuckin bullshit if you ask me. You can't have it both ways (not directed towards you BTW...just venting).

 

Religion is the cause of probably 90% of the wars ever written in the history books in one way or another.

I for one, hope that somebody can come up with PROOF god doesnt' exist so people can make a conscious decsion if they want to be a fucktard or a decent human without worrying somebody who doesn't exist is going to judge them when it's all over, even though they can get out of it if they acknowledge they ###### up. It's a stupid fuckin concept.

 

Now...that being said...and now that I feel better.

I don't (believe it or not) ever rag on someone for being religious.

 

I just don't:

1. Wanna have it jammed down my throat.

2. Wanna hear about what guides you.

3. Wanna hear about how it's a must to save fetus' in this country and kill them in Iraq or wherever the current war is.

 

I believe religion can be a good thing....it is a means (IMO) to keep people from being devious, filthy animals, and hey, whatever works, works.

 

But if you do believe in the Bible/Christianity...then yes, I'd be shittin a rubber nickel right now, cuz things ain't looking too rosie.

 

You're a well spoken, intelligent person Naomi. And it took just this thread for me to realize that.

I apologize for not recognizing that before. I have alot of respect for you...even if I were (and I don't) to disagree with your thoughts/beliefs, you're intelligent.

 

And I do not discount your religion....I need to make that clear.

I am fully aware I could end up burning in hell for not accepting JC into my life....

But I'm gonna roll with what I know.

[BLS 314]

When shiat goes down, I'll meet you halfway in Ohio or something. Deal?

 

 

Word.

[naomi 360]

Personally, I don't adopt religion. In any fashion.

I have a hard time buying something that preaches peace, love, friendship and the right to life (roe vs. wade issue for example) and turns around and supports the Republican party with their pre-emptive wars (IE Killing of thousands) in another country.

 

If life is precious, isn't all life precious?

 

It's a bunch of fuckin bullshit if you ask me. You can't have it both ways (not directed towards you BTW...just venting).

 

Religion is the cause of probably 90% of the wars ever written in the history books in one way or another.

I for one, hope that somebody can come up with PROOF god doesnt' exist so people can make a conscious decsion if they want to be a fucktard or a decent human without worrying somebody who doesn't exist is going to judge them when it's all over, even though they can get out of it if they acknowledge they ###### up. It's a stupid fuckin concept.

 

Now...that being said...and now that I feel better.

I don't (believe it or not) ever rag on someone for being religious.

 

I just don't:

1. Wanna have it jammed down my throat.

2. Wanna hear about what guides you.

3. Wanna hear about how it's a must to save fetus' in this country and kill them in Iraq or wherever the current war is.

 

I believe religion can be a good thing....it is a means (IMO) to keep people from being devious, filthy animals, and hey, whatever works, works.

 

But if you do believe in the Bible/Christianity...then yes, I'd be shittin a rubber nickel right now, cuz things ain't looking too rosie.

 

You're a well spoken, intelligent person Naomi. And it took just this thread for me to realize that.

I apologize for not recognizing that before. I have alot of respect for you...even if I were (and I don't) to disagree with your thoughts/beliefs, you're intelligent.

 

And I do not discount your religion....I need to make that clear.

I am fully aware I could end up burning in hell for not accepting JC into my life....

But I'm gonna roll with what I know.

 

Think I'm imposing on your second desire there. All I'll say is that it's hard to use people as representative of what God desires, the only real place offered to go to understand him is his word. Either the bible is, or is not his word, but that's the end of the story. Don't go by people. It heavily warns as much itself.

[BLS 314]

Think I'm imposing on your second desire there. All I'll say is that it's hard to use people as representative of what God desires, the only real place offered to go to understand him is his word. Either the bible is, or is not his word, but that's the end of the story. Don't go by people. It heavily warns as much itself.

 

 

No, you're not imposing. It's ok with me to speak where you get your guidance. Maybe my rule #2 is unfounded or incorrect.

I've been wrong before.

 

But I do agree with your assertation.

 

I also don't believe in doom and gloom via the scriptures though. I believe life is what you make it.

 

BTW...thank you! For a very intellectually stimulating conversation.

[naomi 360]

No, you're not imposing. It's ok with me to speak where you get your guidance. Maybe my rule #2 is unfounded or incorrect.

I've been wrong before.

 

But I do agree with your assertation.

 

I also don't believe in doom and gloom via the scriptures though. I believe life is what you make it.

 

BTW...thank you! For a very intellectually stimulating conversation.

 

I don't either. Although personally it will be gloomy (but not hopeless) if/when it becomes clear that's what happening. But even so, life is still not about that.

 

You're welcome, although everyone adding input has made this interesting for me too

[Savage Beast 1]

Now that I probably sound like a complete nut to you guys (with the possible exception of Savage Beast), I still do believe that you have to act based on your conscience.

 

I'm half crazy Oklahoma redneck myself, but I have Christ in my life to balance me out. I thank God for his Son, or I would probably be in prison right now because of my mean and nasty temper.

[Franknbeans 46]

I read in a local rag that the Bush administration threatened to Congress to declare martial law if the bailout package was not approved in a timely fashion. Has anyone else heard/read this?

[BLS 314]

I read in a local rag that the Bush administration threatened to Congress to declare martial law if the bailout package was not approved in a timely fashion. Has anyone else heard/read this?

 

 

Totally true.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaG9d_4zij8

 

It's Representative Brad Sherman from California (D). He says it plain as day.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

It's starting to creep me out that Ron Paul is right about all this stuff and yet they all just laughed at him and called him a clown and tried to make him look nuts. He may very well be nuts, but he's also right. And that's starting to be a hell of a lot more than can be said about the rest of them.

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but that's weird.

 

A lot of the problem was Paul's "persona." In some of the early debates I saw, he'd get frustrated that everyone, including the moderator, just ignored him, and used him and Alan Keyes as "lunatic fringe minute" to break up the answers from the "serious candidates" that he would get flustered and start sounding like Elmer Fudd.

 

I like Ron Paul a lot, and wish his libertarian ideas would gain traction in this country. I do remember hearing him say something occasionally that was just like "What the fock did he just say?" (Sorry, I can't remember what, it was a long time ago.)