To those who don't understand why so many of us hate organized religion

[davebg 0]

Unfockingbelievable. YOUR religion promotes the belief that you need to convert these deceased people, which completely tramples their religious beliefs and the Mormon church has the balls to say that nobody has the right to make them change their beliefs!?!

 

What a bunch of focking dooshbags. Unfrotunately, this is an all-too-common theme amongst those who "have religion." If you've got strong religious beliefs, good for you, but don't shove them down the throats of everyone else. It's one thing to attempt to insert your religious beliefs into our (supposedly) secular government...at least those who do not share your beliefs can speak their mind on the subject. However, to desecrate the dead like this is reprehensible.

Holocaust survivors said Monday they are through trying to negotiate with the Mormon church over posthumous baptisms of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps, saying the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.

 

Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints say they are making changes to their massive genealogical database that will make it more difficult for names of Holocaust victims to be entered for posthumous baptism by proxy, a rite that has been a common Mormon practice for more than a century.

 

But Ernest Michel, honorary chairman of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, said that is not enough. At a news conference in New York City on Monday, he said the church also must "implement a mechanism to undo what you have done."

 

"Baptism of a Jewish Holocaust victim and then merely removing that name from the database is just not acceptable," said Michel, whose parents died at Auschwitz. He spoke on the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Nazi-incited riots against Jews.

 

"We ask you to respect us and our Judaism just as we respect your religion," Michel said in a statement released ahead of the news conference. "We ask you to leave our six million Jews, all victims of the Holocaust, alone, they suffered enough."

 

Michel said talks with Mormon leaders, held as recently as last week, have ended. He said his group will not sue, and that "the only thing left, therefore, is to turn to the court of public opinion."

 

In 1995, Mormons and Jews inked an agreement to limit the circumstances that allow for the proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims. Ending the practice outright was not part of the agreement and would essentially be asking Mormons to alter their beliefs, church Elder Lance B. Wickman said Monday in an interview with reporters in Salt Lake City.

 

"We don't think any faith group has the right to ask another to change its doctrines," Wickman said. "If our work for the dead is properly understood ... it should not be a source of friction to anyone. It's merely a freewill offering."

 

Michel's decision to unilaterally end discussion of the issue through a news conference leaves the church uncertain about how to proceed, Wickman said.

 

Baptism by proxy allows faithful Mormons to have their ancestors baptized into the 178-year-old church, which they believe reunites families in the afterlife.

 

Using genealogy records, the church also baptizes people who have died from all over the world and from different religions. Mormons stand in as proxies for the person being baptized and immerse themselves in a baptismal pool.

 

Only the Jews have an agreement with the church limiting who can be baptized, though the agreement covers only Holocaust victims, not all Jewish people. Jews are particularly offended by baptisms of Holocaust victims because they were murdered specifically because of their religion.

 

Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers.

 

"They tell me, that my parents' Jewishness has not been altered but ... 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?" Michel said Monday.

 

Wickman said the practice in no way impinges upon a person's "Jewishness, or their ethnicity, or their background."

 

Under the agreement with the Holocaust group, Mormons could enter the names of only those Holocaust victims to whom they were directly related. The church also agreed to remove the names of Holocaust victims already entered into its massive genealogical database.

 

Church spokesman Otterson said the church kept its part of the agreement by removing more than 260,000 names from the genealogical index.

 

But since 2005, ongoing monitoring of the database by an independent Salt Lake City-based researcher shows both resubmissions and new entries of names of Dutch, Greek, Polish and Italian Jews.

 

The researcher, Helen Radkey, who has done contract work for the Holocaust group, said her research suggests that lists of Holocaust victims obtained from camp and government records are being dumped into the database. She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate baptisms had been conducted for Holocaust victims as recently as July.

 

Wickman said lists of names have been entered into the database by a small number of well-meaning members who were acting "outside of policy." He said that church monitors have identified and removed 42,000 names from the database on their own, and that the church welcomes research from others.

 

Church officials say a new version of the database, called New Family Search, is being tested overseas and should reduce the problems. In the works for six years, the new database will discourage the submission of large lists of unrelated individuals. It will also separate names intended for temple rites from those submitted purely for genealogical purposes, the church states in a letter sent to Michel on Nov. 6.

 

"The names of any Holocaust victims we can identify in the database are to be flagged with a special designation -- not available for temple ordinances," the letter states.

 

The church also proposes jump-starting a monitoring committee formed in 2005 to review database entries. The committee has met just once since 2005.

 

In May, the Vatican ordered Catholic dioceses worldwide to withhold member registries from Mormons so that Catholics could not be baptized.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/11/baptizing...s.ap/index.html

[Recliner Pilot 61]

So you are gonna take your mile wide brush and paint all organized religion as the same because of this one incident?

 

Exactly how does this affect you again?

[Snoopy1 0]

So you are gonna take your mile wide brush and paint all organized religion as the same because of this one incident?

 

 

Yeah, you've never been guilty of that....

[TimmySmith 2,783]

It appears you hate organized religion right up to the point that Judaism is brought into play.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

Yeah, you've never been guilty of that....

 

link to me painting all organized religion with one brush?

[davebg 0]

It appears you hate organized religion right up to the point that Judaism is brought into play.

Nah...I hate Judaism too. I feel that the notion that people should subscribe to a set of beliefs for no other reason than that's what their parents believed is the product of a small mind.

[Snoopy1 0]

link to me painting all organized religion with one brush?

 

I didn't say specifically you've done that with religion..just about every topic regarding politics though...

[GettnHuge 2]

link to me painting all organized religion with one brush?

 

rink

[davebg 0]

So you are gonna take your mile wide brush and paint all organized religion as the same because of this one incident?

 

Exactly how does this affect you again?

This isn't one incident. This is an ongoing, repeated effort on the part of one of the larger, more influencial religious organizations in the world to impose their beliefs upon the dead, who can't defend themselves and their beliefs.

 

How does this impact me? Not directly, but I do have deceased family who lived their lives as Jews. I may think that organized religion is stoopid, but I still respect their right to believe it. Why should any religous organization be able to trample anyone's beliefs like this?

[Recliner Pilot 61]

This isn't one incident. This is an ongoing, repeated effort on the part of one of the larger, more influencial religious organizations in the world to impose their beliefs upon the dead, who can't defend themselves and their beliefs.

 

How does this impact me? Not directly, but I do have deceased family who lived their lives as Jews. I may think that organized religion is stoopid, but I still respect their right to believe it. Why should any religous organization be able to trample anyone's beliefs like this?

 

So now it's "one"group, yet you condemn all organized religion.

 

Exactly how are they able to "trample" the beliefs of dead people?

[TimmySmith 2,783]

Nah...I hate Judaism too. I feel that the notion that people should subscribe to a set of beliefs for no other reason than that's what their parents believed is the product of a small mind.

Happens in every facet of life, not just religion. Some parents are excellent, some are not.

 

My opinion on faith is that it is a product of strength, not weakness. To each his own.

[Voltaire 5,491]

One of the side benefits of Mitt Romney's presidential campaign wsa learning all about Mormons. I thought this was pretty funny.

[Terrapin Flyer 0]

Nah...I hate Judaism too. I feel that the notion that people should subscribe to a set of beliefs for no other reason than that's what their parents believed is the product of a small mind.

 

 

Couldn't agree more. The vast majority of people don't find God through thought, philosophy, and education, they find him in Sunday school. They let other people do their thinking for them. I will not denounce any religion nor will I embrace any one. All religions have been edited and corrupted by man over time. I trust God completely but I don't trust man. People that try to shove their religion down your throat are generally not trying to convince you that they're right but instead are trying to convince themselves. They need your affirmation.

[surferskin 31]

To each his own.

Not according to people like Dave. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion as long as it's the right(his) one.

[wiffleball 4,797]

It appears you hate organized religion right up to the point that Judaism is brought into play.

wtf?

[davebg 0]

Not according to people like Dave. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion as long as it's the right(his) one.

Not really sure how you could come to that conclusion based upon anything I wrote in this thread.

 

People should be able to believe whatever they want, as long as their beliefs don't trample on the beliefs of others. More specifically, in this case, the Mormon belief in this "freewill offering" of converting the dead should not be allowed to trump the religious beliefs of the dead.

 

Itsatipthat if they wanted to convert from Judaism to Mormonism, then they had ample opportunity to do so while they were alive.

 

I mean, if Mormons can convert the dead against their beliefs, then what's to keep them from converting the living? Oh, that's right, the dead can't speak up for themselves, so they make easy pickings.

[surferskin 31]

Not really sure how you could come to that conclusion based upon anything I wrote in this thread.

 

People should be able to believe whatever they want, as long as their beliefs don't trample on the beliefs of others. More specifically, in this case, the Mormon belief in this "freewill offering" of converting the dead should not be allowed to trump the religious beliefs of the dead.

 

Itsatipthat if they wanted to convert from Judaism to Mormonism, then they had ample opportunity to do so while they were alive.

 

I mean, if Mormons can convert the dead against their beliefs, then what's to keep them from converting the living? Oh, that's right, the dead can't speak up for themselves, so they make easy pickings.

I don't think you'll find anyone to defend what your OP was about but when you start a thread out by "Reasons to hate organized religion", it's obvious that this is just another attempt to bash people of faith.

[wiffleball 4,797]

Not really sure how you could come to that conclusion based upon anything I wrote in this thread.

 

People should be able to believe whatever they want, as long as their beliefs don't trample on the beliefs of others. More specifically, in this case, the Mormon belief in this "freewill offering" of converting the dead should not be allowed to trump the religious beliefs of the dead.

 

Itsatipthat if they wanted to convert from Judaism to Mormonism, then they had ample opportunity to do so while they were alive.

 

I mean, if Mormons can convert the dead against their beliefs, then what's to keep them from converting the living? Oh, that's right, the dead can't speak up for themselves, so they make easy pickings.

 

Why somewhere I think I agree with your premise about organized religion, the above post makes me . I mean, 100 years from now, the Pongo-Pongo religion could induct me into their Hall of Fame. Make me Grand Poobah of their religion. WTF do I care? WTF does God care? It's harmless. If it makes their living members happy, what's the harm?

 

That's it - I'm making Elvis and my GrandPa an honorary Geek.

[davebg 0]

I don't think you'll find anyone to defend what your OP was about but when you start a thread out by "Reasons to hate organized religion", it's obvious that this is just another attempt to bash people of faith.

This isn't some offshoot renegade church that's doing this. We're not talking about that scumbag Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church. This is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is a church that controls the entire state of Utah. This is a church that has not hesitated to use their influence throughout the country, as evidenced by a number of individual state ballot initiatives this past election.

 

So, yes, I am using a pretty big brush here to paint organized religion. That's because the Mormon church carries a pretty big brush themselves and they're not afraid to use it.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

People should be able to believe whatever they want, as long as their beliefs don't trample on the beliefs of others. More specifically, in this case, the Mormon belief in this "freewill offering" of converting the dead should not be allowed to trump the religious beliefs of the dead.

 

No, this is just another bash religion thread, unless you can explain:

 

How does the Mormon church "trample" and "trump" the religious beliefs of people who have been dead for over 60 years? Are you claiming the souls of those people have been hovering in limbo for this long waiting for what someone in the Mormon church says?

 

Seems to me that those Jews and God would have sorted out their religions standing long ago.

[davebg 0]

Why somewhere I think I agree with your premise about organized religion, the above post makes me . I mean, 100 years from now, the Pongo-Pongo religion could induct me into their Hall of Fame. Make me Grand Poobah of their religion. WTF do I care? WTF does God care? It's harmless. If it makes their living members happy, what's the harm?

 

That's it - I'm making Elvis and my GrandPa an honorary Geek.

Look, like I've said, religion is not a big part of my life. For other people it is and for those people being baptised and converted in death is a big deal. If the importance of religious affiliation in death didn't matter to anyone, then we wouldn't have all of these rituals and there wouldn't be cemetaries devoted to specific religious groups. You'd walk through Arlington National cemetary and you wouldn't see row upon row of heastones in the shape of a cross.

[surferskin 31]

Actually, after reading the article more, what's the big deal anyways? You're making it sound like they're digging up bodies to dunk them. Sounds like it has more do with the family members in the church than the deceased.

[davebg 0]

No, this is just another bash religion thread, unless you can explain:

 

How does the Mormon church "trample" and "trump" the religious beliefs of people who have been dead for over 60 years? Are you claiming the souls of those people have been hovering in limbo for this long waiting for what someone in the Mormon church says?

 

Seems to me that those Jews and God would have sorted out their religions standing long ago.

I'll keep that in mind when your loved ones die and a bunch of self-important Jews decide that they are going to convert them to Judaism. Of course, if they convert your mother, then that kind of makes you a Jew too b/c the Jewish religion believes that if your mother is Jewish, then you are Jewish.

 

Welcome to the Tribe, my friend. L'Chaim!!!

[Durtee 0]

This isn't some offshoot renegade church that's doing this. We're not talking about that scumbag Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church. This is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is a church that controls the entire state of Utah. This is a church that has not hesitated to use their influence throughout the country, as evidenced by a number of individual state ballot initiatives this past election.

 

So, yes, I am using a pretty big brush here to paint organized religion. That's because the Mormon church carries a pretty big brush themselves and they're not afraid to use it.

 

There are plenty of people of faith that would agree with you to a certain extent, however your problem is that you are comparing this Mormon church to every other denomination which is ignorant. Mormons and Jehova witnesses are very different from, Catholics, Methodists, Penecostals etc.... It is very ignorant to condemn people of religious faith as a whole because of the actions of a few.

[davebg 0]

Sounds like it has more do with the family members in the church than the deceased.

I think you missed the part of the article where members of the church have taken lists of names of Holocaust victims from camp and government records and then dumped them into the church's database.

[surferskin 31]

I think you missed the part of the article where members of the church have taken lists of names of Holocaust victims from camp and government records and then dumped them into the church's database.

But aren't they just "baptizing" the ones they're related to?

[davebg 0]

There are plenty of people of faith that would agree with you to a certain extent, however your problem is that you are comparing this Mormon church to every other denomination which is ignorant. Mormons and Jehova witnesses are very different from, Catholics, Methodists, Penecostals etc.... It is very ignorant to condemn people of religious faith as a whole because of the actions of a few.

As I said, this is exhibit A. There are many other examples of other religious groups trying to impose their beliefs on others. They've been debated ad nauseum here at the Geek Club.

 

The funny thing is, every time one such story gets discussed, the same excuse is trotted out. Namely, that it's just this one religion.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

I'll keep that in mind when your loved ones die and a bunch of self-important Jews decide that they are going to convert them to Judaism. Of course, if they convert your mother, then that kind of makes you a Jew too b/c the Jewish religion believes that if your mother is Jewish, then you are Jewish.

 

Welcome to the Tribe, my friend. L'Chaim!!!

 

What the Jews decide to do on behalf of any of my family members before or after death would have no bearing on me whatsoever.

 

Now, explain how those dead people had thier religious beliefs "trumped" and "trampled" again?

[davebg 0]

But aren't they just "baptizing" the ones they're related to?

In short, no. Entire lists of names were added, supposedly by rogue church members. The church has promised to clean up their list and "fix" the problem. However, the committe put together to monitor this has met once since its inception in 2005.

 

Meanwhile, the Catholic Church has gone as far as withholding their own member registries from Mormons to prevent this exact same thing from happening en masse to their members.

The researcher, Helen Radkey, who has done contract work for the Holocaust group, said her research suggests that lists of Holocaust victims obtained from camp and government records are being dumped into the database. She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate baptisms had been conducted for Holocaust victims as recently as July.

 

Wickman said lists of names have been entered into the database by a small number of well-meaning members who were acting "outside of policy." He said that church monitors have identified and removed 42,000 names from the database on their own, and that the church welcomes research from others.

 

Church officials say a new version of the database, called New Family Search, is being tested overseas and should reduce the problems. In the works for six years, the new database will discourage the submission of large lists of unrelated individuals. It will also separate names intended for temple rites from those submitted purely for genealogical purposes, the church states in a letter sent to Michel on Nov. 6.

 

"The names of any Holocaust victims we can identify in the database are to be flagged with a special designation -- not available for temple ordinances," the letter states.

 

The church also proposes jump-starting a monitoring committee formed in 2005 to review database entries. The committee has met just once since 2005.

 

In May, the Vatican ordered Catholic dioceses worldwide to withhold member registries from Mormons so that Catholics could not be baptized.

[wiffleball 4,797]

For those people being baptised and converted in death is a big deal.

 

What, you commune with the dead now? Having Seyonces with Murray Finklestein are we??

[Recliner Pilot 61]

I think you missed the part of the article where members of the church have taken lists of names of Holocaust victims from camp and government records and then dumped them into the church's database.

 

Exactly what affect does their named being in some database 60+ years after their death have on the dead?

[davebg 0]

What, you commune with the dead now? Having Seyonces with Murray Finklestein are we??

These are people who were killed over their religious beliefs. If they were willing to face death rather than abandon their relgious beliefs, then I think it's a safe assumption that they'd consider this a big deal. Of course, as I pointed out earlier, the Mormon's are too chickenshit to go after living people who can defend themselves and their beliefs.

 

ETA: The Mormon church isn't only doing this to Jews. In fact, the Jews are the only group that has any sort of agreement with the Mormon church on this practice. They do this for other religions and for people who weren't exterminated in the Holocaust (hence the Catholic Church's restriction on giving their member lists to Mormons.)

 

The justification that the Mormon's use is that they are trying to unite families in heaven. Well, if what they're doing is so good and well meaning, then why didn't they get permission to convert people while they were alive? Obviously, this wouldn't apply to the Holocaust victims, but what about other instances?

 

If Joe the Mormon wants to see his grandfather Tom the Catholic in heaven, then why doens't Joe get Tom to convert in life? Why does Joe wait until Tom is dead and buried to convert him? Again, it's because it's easier to take advantage of the dead than it is the living.

[wiffleball 4,797]

These are people who were killed over their religious beliefs. If they were willing to face death rather than abandon their relgious beliefs, then I think it's a safe assumption that they'd consider this a big deal. Of course, as I pointed out earlier, the Mormon's are too chickenshit to go after living people who can defend themselves and their beliefs.

 

ETA: The Mormon church isn't only doing this to Jews. In fact, the Jews are the only group that has any sort of agreement with the Mormon church on this practice. They do this for other religions and for people who weren't exterminated in the Holocaust (hence the Catholic Church's restriction on giving their member lists to Mormons.)

 

The justification that the Mormon's use is that they are trying to unite families in heaven. Well, if what they're doing is so good and well meaning, then why didn't they get permission to convert people while they were alive? Obviously, this wouldn't apply to the Holocaust victims, but what about other instances?

 

If Joe the Mormon wants to see his grandfather Tom the Catholic in heaven, then why doens't Joe get Tom to convert in life? Why does Joe wait until Tom is dead and buried to convert him? Again, it's because it's easier to take advantage of the dead than it is the living.

 

Yer cracking me up. Look, I don't want anybody to take my liver right now. I'm (ab)using it. I'm VERY vehement about this. But, once I'm dead, I'm okay with it. -Not that anybody would want it, mind you. They're DEAD! DEAD! They are an EX-LIFE! They are heart-beat challenged! Wormfood! Muerte! Kaput! Hell, they probably don't like having a nail driven through the top of their mouth, their organs removed and sawdust stuffed in them either. But their FAMILY does! The shiit they do to the dead to make them look purty for a funeral would make a billy-goat puke! But the FAMILY wants it. This is no different. - Except it's a shiitload sillier and FAR more harmless.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

Dave, we get it. You hate religion. However, bringing this example to justify your hatred is a huge fail on your part.

 

You should delete this thread while you are behind.

[davebg 0]

Yer cracking me up. Look, I don't want anybody to take my liver right now. I'm (ab)using it. I'm VERY vehement about this. But, once I'm dead, I'm okay with it. -Not that anybody would want it, mind you. They're DEAD! DEAD! They are an EX-LIFE! They are heart-beat challenged! Wormfood! Muerte! Kaput! Hell, they probably don't like having a nail driven through the top of their mouth, their organs removed and sawdust stuffed in them either. But their FAMILY does! The shiit they do to the dead to make them look purty for a funeral would make a billy-goat puke! But the FAMILY wants it. This is no different. - Except it's a shiitload sillier and FAR more harmless.

Look, personally, I agree. Life ends at death. However, the foundation of belief for many religions is based upon there being an afterlife. To those that believe in an afterlife this is a direct violation of their beliefs.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

Look, personally, I agree. Life ends at death. However, the foundation of belief for many religions is based upon there being an afterlife. To those that believe in an afterlife this is a direct violation of their beliefs.

 

No, it isn't.

 

It has no bearing on my beliefs. It certainly doesn't have a bearing on those dead for decades. Seems like the only person it has a bearing on is you.

[surferskin 31]

Look, personally, I agree. Life ends at death. However, the foundation of belief for many religions is based upon there being an afterlife. To those that believe in an afterlife this is a direct violation of their beliefs.

There's noway this could be less direct than it already is.

[MedStudent 56]

No, it isn't.

 

It has no bearing on my beliefs. It certainly doesn't have a bearing on those dead for decades. Seems like the only person it has a bearing on is you.

 

It probably has a bearing on the families of the dead and it probably upsets them for no good reason. So, why do they have to do this? I am not a particularly religious person but I respect people's beliefs and let them be.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

It probably has a bearing on the families of the dead and it probably upsets them for no good reason. So, why do they have to do this? I am not a particularly religious person but I respect people's beliefs and let them be.

 

Possibly upsetting family members is one thing, and I agree with you on that point. But Dave claims the dead had their religions beliefs "trumped", "trampled", and "violated". When asked how he has nothing.

 

This is nothing more than a feeble attempt to justify his hatred.

[MedStudent 56]

Possibly upsetting family members is one thing, and I agree with you on that point. But Dave claims the dead had their religions beliefs "trumped", "trampled", and "violated". When asked how he has nothing.

 

This is nothing more than a feeble attempt to justify his hatred.

 

You're probably right on that but I'm not sure how that stuff works. Do you automatically lose your Jew card if someone throws holy water on your dead corpse