GM going under

[pimptastic69 0]

Anyone remember that movie "Tucker"? Maybe it's time to break up the "big 3" into the "more manageable 27" or something. Maybe that way we could get some more American competition going on and no one in the industry would be too big to fail.

[RLLD 3,505]

Where the fock are you getting this $72/hr number from??? I guarantee you, there is no hourly operator in a manufacturing facility of the Big 3 in the US is making anywhere close to $72/hr. As a previous poster has said, this value is closer to an all-inclusive dollar amount including beneifits/pension funding/etc, not what these people are grossing per hour.

 

I focking got it from GM, and surpisingly the amount IS all inclusive, even more surprising is the fact that actual cost to the organization is what is important. Unless you want to pretend that GM would not be impacted, like being forced into bankruptcy or something

[supermike80 1,317]

Something else that bothers me tremendously: There are other U.S. corporations far bigger than GM. One example would be Walmart. If Walmart, hypothetically, was on the brink of collapse, would the government proffer taxpayer money to bail them out as well? Somehow I don't think so.

 

And please don't tell me a Walmart collapse wouldn't have far-reaching implications. Can you fathom the workforce numbers that would be laid off and the resultant unemployment benefit submissions? Can you imagine the manufacturing contingent that would be affected?

 

The collective dynamics of this "crisis" can be argued, spun and dissected ad infinitum, but I simply don't buy some of the please-bail-us-out arguments GM is presenting. How about GM quit paying the top brass millions upon millions of $$$ each year. I shudder to think what their annual bonuses may be, or historically have been. How about they figure out how to modernize and become competitive again. How about they figure out how to manage their operations better, just as every other focking business entity has to.

 

Ok.. First of all, and importantly, this isnt JUST GM, it is GM, Ford, Chrysler. One by itself is possible, all three is a huge problem. Walmart by itself? Maybe not....seeing as they are the largest employer in the WORLD...I bet they would get a little more atttention than you think. However, for your argument to have merit, it has to be Walmart, Target, and maybe Kohl's. Think THEN that might garner some goverment attention? Yeah I think so.

 

The auto companies need to figure out a way to make their businesses run better, I don't disagree with that...but I think we can help them.

A single auto plant within a city employs thousands-- THOUSANDS......Walmart employs what? 1 to 2 hundred? This doesn't even count the support to keep that plant running. Suppliers fail, communities fail, cities fail.

 

A plant shutting down in my city will have MASSIVE negative effects on nearly every aspect of this community, a Walmart failure? Meh--not nearly as critical. It's a poor comparison.

 

Oh yeah, don't discount the fact that people don't need loans to shop at Walmart. You generally have to in order to buy a car. 700 billion dollars was just paid out to get banks to lend again, so there is obviously a serious credit issue in the US right now..why should the auto companies suffer for that? Do we have a responsibilty to support them while we bail out the rest of the economy?

 

Whats the single biggest loan Americans take? Mortgages...We just helped that issue out. Next up? Cars. Nothing for them? Zip?

[supermike80 1,317]

Don't forget about environmental regulations in this. It's like we are shooting ourseelves in the foot. We make ourselves follow these regulations, which increases cost, but none of the other countries have to follow the same rules, in any aspect of this be it regulations, safety, wages, etc....

 

Ah..now you are getting closer to some of the issues faced by the auto companies.

[buffalobillsffl2003 0]

don't nearly dead people buy gm automoobeeles?

 

Buick? dead people....and the obamagolfer.

 

Oldsmobile...dead...real dead.

[Strike 4,051]

Ah..now you are getting closer to some of the issues faced by the auto companies.

 

When Toyota goes bankrupt this will be a valid argument. You can't say environmental regs are killing the big three when the Jap manufacturers are going to get through this without charity.

[supermike80 1,317]

When Toyota goes bankrupt this will be a valid argument. You can't say environmental regs are killing the big three when the Jap manufacturers are going to get through this without charity.

 

If this continues, Toyota will also be facing serious economic problems. Read their press releases. They aren't immune to this either. Not even close.

 

It isn't just environmental regs, but that is a consideration. I wouldn;t try to convince anyone that this is the ONLY reason.

 

Their business model if FUBAR..their labor agreements are hugely restrictive, so much so that I am not 100% convinced that they will be able to get out of them even if they declared bankruptcy.

[supermike80 1,317]

You have to save them. Its sick but we cant allow them to fail. It would wreak havoc on our economy in the U.S. and it would KILL the state of Michigan. Like I said if you do in fact step in and save them you HAVE to have them retool ALL of their plants to make more fuel efficient cars/trucks.

Yeah, here's the problem with that and what gets me mad.

People WANTED these g0ddamn SUV's. Do people think that John Q Public walked into a dealer and said "I want a practical, fuel efficient automobile" and GM, Ford, and Chrysler said "No sir, you WILL buy this big truck"

Fock No.

They built what people wanted........all this blame went on the auto companies for creating this terrible problem when it was the consumers that drove this.

 

If anything, the auto companies need to simplify what they do and not be such whoores to the consumers' whimsical nature..

Remember the saying Ford had? "You can get this Model A in any color you want, as long as it's black" Maybe a little too far fetched, but might not be a bad idea.

Less colors, less models, less options. Quicker turnaround time. People are fundamentally stupid and change their minds and preferences with the wind. Look around.....see an increase in people driving SUV's and trucks now that gas prices are back toward $2/gallon? I do. When it was $4/gallon, it was quite different.

 

The true winner, the true car company that can succeed is one that can react QUICKLY to the economic swings. Think Toyota had this great wonderful business model? They didn't. They existed traditionally in a car driven society(Asia, Europe)....so they already had the infrastructure in place to build these fuel efficient models.

 

Toyota went into pickups, remember the Tundra? Miserable focking failure, still is. They went into this right as gas prices decided to go through the roof....and it bit them in the azz.

[Strike 4,051]

Their business model if FUBAR..their labor agreements are hugely restrictive, so much so that I am not 100% convinced that they will be able to get out of them even if they declared bankruptcy.

 

Oh, well let's just give them $50 BILLION dollars to fock around with and pray they don't just blow it huh? How about we just divide that 50 billion by 300 million people and send people a check? That seems more fair to me and it might even help your neighbor out.

[Strike 4,051]

Yeah, here's the problem with that and what gets me mad.

People WANTED these g0ddamn SUV's. Do people think that John Q Public walked into a dealer and said "I want a practical, fuel efficient automobile" and GM, Ford, and Chrysler said "No sir, you WILL buy this big truck"

Fock No.

They built what people wanted........all this blame went on the auto companies for creating this terrible problem when it was the consumers that drove this.

 

Blah blah blah. The last time I checked the Japs still make Sentras, Corollas, and other small fuel efficient cars. Ford actually CANCELLED just such a project a few years ago because they realized they couldn't manufacturer the vehicle profitably due to their union contracts. You can keep whining but nothing you've said so far is compelling.

[supermike80 1,317]

Blah blah blah. The last time I checked the Japs still make Sentras, Corollas, and other small fuel efficient cars. Ford actually CANCELLED just such a project a few years ago because they realized they couldn't manufacturer the vehicle profitably due to their union contracts. You can keep whining but nothing you've said so far is compelling.

 

Blah blah blah isn't much of an argument..not sure of your point with that but ok.

And you are right...Like I said, I'm not defending the auto companies completely...but bankruptcy may not be the save all everyone thinks it is. It will probably cost more.

[Captain Allen 0]

This is what I think a lot of people are missing. People with valuable skills will find new jobs where they can have a more positive impact. Those that can't... well... we have welfare for them. Let's call it what it is. At least we'll be helping them directly rather than paying for executive bonuses.

 

This seems to be very narrow-minded thinking. If GM goes "away" it's not just the 200,000+ GM employees, there are numerous auto supplier's that employ a very large group of people that would also lose their jobs.

 

I focking got it from GM, and surpisingly the amount IS all inclusive, even more surprising is the fact that actual cost to the organization is what is important. Unless you want to pretend that GM would not be impacted, like being forced into bankruptcy or something

 

Right, so these hourly employees are not grossing $72/hr. It'd be interesting to see what the hourly cost totals are for other employees in different industries. My guess is that it's fairly high when everything is factored in. Now, that being said, hourly operators at these GM plants definitely make more than what they are worth considering they have no true skill.

[Captain Allen 0]

Any of you heard of GM's EV1? Google it, you might be surprised.

[Strike 4,051]

Right, so these hourly employees are not grossing $72/hr. It'd be interesting to see what the hourly cost totals are for other employees in different industries. My guess is that it's fairly high when everything is factored in. Now, that being said, hourly operators at these GM plants definitely make more than what they are worth considering they have no true skill.

 

Toyota is paying between $42-48 for the same people GM is paying $72. You do the math.

[Strike 4,051]

The city of Detroit is now asking the Feds for a $10 billion dollar bailout of it's own, separate from the auto industry. Oh, and so is Atlanta. CA asked for a loan a few weeks ago too. I guess we give all those entities money too just cause someone might go hungry if we don't.

[buffalobillsffl2003 0]

Isn't much of this for the retired bastages to keep their health care and pension money going?

 

How did that work out for Bethlehem Steel recently?

 

[thetxstang 0]

Ok.. First of all, and importantly, this isnt JUST GM, it is GM, Ford, Chrysler. One by itself is possible, all three is a huge problem. Walmart by itself? Maybe not....seeing as they are the largest employer in the WORLD...I bet they would get a little more atttention than you think. However, for your argument to have merit, it has to be Walmart, Target, and maybe Kohl's. Think THEN that might garner some goverment attention? Yeah I think so.

 

The auto companies need to figure out a way to make their businesses run better, I don't disagree with that...but I think we can help them.

A single auto plant within a city employs thousands-- THOUSANDS......Walmart employs what? 1 to 2 hundred? This doesn't even count the support to keep that plant running. Suppliers fail, communities fail, cities fail.

 

A plant shutting down in my city will have MASSIVE negative effects on nearly every aspect of this community, a Walmart failure? Meh--not nearly as critical. It's a poor comparison.

 

Oh yeah, don't discount the fact that people don't need loans to shop at Walmart. You generally have to in order to buy a car. 700 billion dollars was just paid out to get banks to lend again, so there is obviously a serious credit issue in the US right now..why should the auto companies suffer for that? Do we have a responsibilty to support them while we bail out the rest of the economy?

 

Whats the single biggest loan Americans take? Mortgages...We just helped that issue out. Next up? Cars. Nothing for them? Zip?

 

I guess you missed the part where I stated, "The collective dynamics of this "crisis" can be argued, spun and dissected ad infinitum..."

 

It's evident you have a particularly forceful opinion about this matter. I respect your views and concerns, and certainly hope for the best for your community. It appears you live in an area particularly sensitive to this "crisis."

 

The bailout will happen, fortunately or otherwise, so you will have your wish. Time will either vindicate or crucify the decision makers. I fear the latter, but pray for the former.

[Strike 4,051]

Here's a great article:

 

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../A01-351179.htm

 

But yeah, the unions have NOTHING to do with this problem.

[Captain Allen 0]

Here's an interesting site that shows the broad impact on the US if the auto industy were to collapse: www.gmfactsandfiction.com

[SUXBNME 1,348]

Toyota is paying between $42-48 for the same people GM is paying $72. You do the math.

Also, the average small business owner is at $17.00 an hour.

 

I'm currently trying to find a video of the the hearing yesterday that Dodd presided over with the big 3 and some smart little dooshe with a red bowtie that I guess just PWNED the big 3 execs.

Help?

[Strike 4,051]

Also, the average small business owner is at $17.00 an hour.

 

I'm currently trying to find a video of the the hearing yesterday that Dodd presided over with the big 3 and some smart little dooshe with a red bowtie that I guess just PWNED the big 3 execs.

Help?

 

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/

[SUXBNME 1,348]

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/

Thanx

Watch the below at about 30:08

The guys from the big 3 have already given their reasons why they need the money, and this dood comes in and pretty much rips them a new one.

http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/inde...cts_id=282453-2

[RLLD 3,505]

Right, so these hourly employees are not grossing $72/hr. It'd be interesting to see what the hourly cost totals are for other employees in different industries. My guess is that it's fairly high when everything is factored in. Now, that being said, hourly operators at these GM plants definitely make more than what they are worth considering they have no true skill.

 

 

Link to where I stated this was gross wages?

 

Link to ANY corporate HR review of wrap rates where the total employee benefits are not part of the cost calculation?

 

You can certainly feel free to "guess" all you want, autoworker unions have established the total corporate costs for labor at disproportionate level compared with jobs of similar requirements.

 

The unions are the not only cause of the destruction of the domestic auto industry, but they were the biggest factor. Lucky for them they will be their own creative destructive force, and in the end as they struggle to feed, clothe and house their families they can at least have the satisfaction that they took way more than they were due, and screwed themselves as well as their employers.

 

Maybe from the ashes of companies like GM can rise organizations that can avoid falling prey to unions....

[tubby_mcgee 691]

Miserable focking failure, still is

 

It's failing "less than the others"---at least in TX.

 

 

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/01/16/t...s-truck-market/

 

 

Not sure if this has been posted yet....

but....

 

Once you are tenured (not sure on how long that is), and a member of the Automakers Union....that you get all of your health insurance paid for...that includes no deductible, no copay....and that is for the rest of your life. ALSO...your offspring get the exact same deal. $1700 of each vehicle purchase by the public goes to pay for this.

[Greedo 13]

Thanx

Watch the below at about 30:08

The guys from the big 3 have already given their reasons why they need the money, and this dood comes in and pretty much rips them a new one.

http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/inde...cts_id=282453-2

 

They call him "the mouse that roars."