Shohei Ohtani - 1st 75 million per season athlete?

[posty 2,700]

19 hours ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

This should not be legal 

Agreed, but the wave of the future for contracts now...  Probably in most sports now...

[TBayXXXVII 2,546]

On 12/9/2023 at 11:17 PM, Voltaire said:

This is the best two-way pitcher/batter since Babe Ruth.  He dominates in both aspects. If the 2nd Tommy John surgery doesn't work out well, the Dodgers are paying for what he did with the Angles, not what he'll do for them. But what he did for the Angles is focking incredible. He's been the best player of our lifetime.

Babe Ruth, being a 2-way player is a massive overstatement even in itself.  Ignoring his 2 weeks in 1914, in his first 3 years when he was pitching (1915-1917), he TOTALED 397 plate appearances.  This isn't special.  There was no DH until the 70's, so every pitcher hit back then.  He didn't have any more PA's than the next guy.  For example, Red Faber of the White Sox was also playing his first 3 (full years), the same time Ruth, and in those 3 years, he totaled 283 plate appearances.

Now, don't take that to mean Faber was just as good.  He was a terrible hitter... that's not my point.  My point is, during those first 3 years, Babe Ruth was a pitcher who hit in the lineup when he pitched... and not much more.  Basically, the extra 100 plate appearances over 3 years essentially equates to 1 PH appearance every 4+ (regular season) games.

It wasn't until 1918 where he started to become a bigger hitting focal point... which coincides with him becoming less of a pitcher.  In 1917, he had 142 plate appearances and pitched in 41 games, in 1918 he jumped up to 382 plate appearances and dropped down to 20 games pitched.  The following year, the transition was complete... he had 543 plate appearances and 17 games pitched.  That's it.  That's the end.  In 1920 he was traded to the Yankees and pitched in 1 game, 2 the following year... throwing only 13 innings total.  At no point in his career can you say he pitched like a pitcher and hit like a hitter.  In 1918, he was a part-time hitter and part-time pitcher.  In 1919 he was a full-time hitter and part-time pitcher.  Why do I say part-time pitcher?  Because back in that day, pitchers pitched in 40 games a year.  Once he went over 200 PA's, he never pitched in more than 20 games.

[posty 2,700]

The DH killed baseball for sure...  Pitchers should still be hitting...

[TBayXXXVII 2,546]

1 minute ago, posty said:

The DH killed baseball for sure...  Pitchers should still be hitting...

Agreed.

[edjr 6,592]

26 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Babe Ruth, being a 2-way player is a massive overstatement even in itself.  Ignoring his 2 weeks in 1914, in his first 3 years when he was pitching (1915-1917), he TOTALED 397 plate appearances.  This isn't special.  There was no DH until the 70's, so every pitcher hit back then.  He didn't have any more PA's than the next guy.  For example, Red Faber of the White Sox was also playing his first 3 (full years), the same time Ruth, and in those 3 years, he totaled 283 plate appearances.

Now, don't take that to mean Faber was just as good.  He was a terrible hitter... that's not my point.  My point is, during those first 3 years, Babe Ruth was a pitcher who hit in the lineup when he pitched... and not much more.  Basically, the extra 100 plate appearances over 3 years essentially equates to 1 PH appearance every 4+ (regular season) games.

It wasn't until 1918 where he started to become a bigger hitting focal point... which coincides with him becoming less of a pitcher.  In 1917, he had 142 plate appearances and pitched in 41 games, in 1918 he jumped up to 382 plate appearances and dropped down to 20 games pitched.  The following year, the transition was complete... he had 543 plate appearances and 17 games pitched.  That's it.  That's the end.  In 1920 he was traded to the Yankees and pitched in 1 game, 2 the following year... throwing only 13 innings total.  At no point in his career can you say he pitched like a pitcher and hit like a hitter.  In 1918, he was a part-time hitter and part-time pitcher.  In 1919 he was a full-time hitter and part-time pitcher.  Why do I say part-time pitcher?  Because back in that day, pitchers pitched in 40 games a year.  Once he went over 200 PA's, he never pitched in more than 20 games.

Babe Ruth is the least impressive athlete of all time. Played against milkmen and mailmen    

[TBayXXXVII 2,546]

Just now, edjr said:

Babe Ruth is the least impressive athlete of all time. Played against milkmen and mailmen    

Is that it or was Babe Ruth so great, that he made every other player he played against, look like milkmen and mailmen.

[edjr 6,592]

Just now, TBayXXXVII said:

Is that it or was Babe Ruth so great, that he made every other player he played against, look like milkmen and mailmen.

Show me the list of non-whites he played against?

Look at MLB now. Imagine how bad it would be if only white guys could play. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,546]

2 minutes ago, edjr said:

Show me the list of non-whites he played against?

Look at MLB now. Imagine how bad it would be if only white guys could play. 

That's the worst argument I've ever heard.  LOL

[edjr 6,592]

4 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

That's the worst argument I've ever heard.  LOL

Yeah. it would be a terrible product. How many Pedro Martinez's you think Fat Ruth played against.

Just like it was in the 20s

[TBayXXXVII 2,546]

1 minute ago, edjr said:

Yeah. it would be a terrible product. How many Pedro Martinez's you think Fat Ruth played against.

Just like it was in the 20s

Stop while you're behind.

[edjr 6,592]

segregation - always where we get our best athletes. 

[Voltaire 5,316]

2 hours ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Babe Ruth, being a 2-way player is a massive overstatement even in itself.  Ignoring his 2 weeks in 1914, in his first 3 years when he was pitching (1915-1917), he TOTALED 397 plate appearances.  This isn't special.  There was no DH until the 70's, so every pitcher hit back then.  He didn't have any more PA's than the next guy.  For example, Red Faber of the White Sox was also playing his first 3 (full years), the same time Ruth, and in those 3 years, he totaled 283 plate appearances.

Now, don't take that to mean Faber was just as good.  He was a terrible hitter... that's not my point.  My point is, during those first 3 years, Babe Ruth was a pitcher who hit in the lineup when he pitched... and not much more.  Basically, the extra 100 plate appearances over 3 years essentially equates to 1 PH appearance every 4+ (regular season) games.

It wasn't until 1918 where he started to become a bigger hitting focal point... which coincides with him becoming less of a pitcher.  In 1917, he had 142 plate appearances and pitched in 41 games, in 1918 he jumped up to 382 plate appearances and dropped down to 20 games pitched.  The following year, the transition was complete... he had 543 plate appearances and 17 games pitched.  That's it.  That's the end.  In 1920 he was traded to the Yankees and pitched in 1 game, 2 the following year... throwing only 13 innings total.  At no point in his career can you say he pitched like a pitcher and hit like a hitter.  In 1918, he was a part-time hitter and part-time pitcher.  In 1919 he was a full-time hitter and part-time pitcher.  Why do I say part-time pitcher?  Because back in that day, pitchers pitched in 40 games a year.  Once he went over 200 PA's, he never pitched in more than 20 games.

I didn't know this. What a waste. I presumed they would pitch him 40 times a year then , between starts, they would (do something like) park his ass at first base for the other 120 games. Why let that bat ride the bench?

[posty 2,700]

29 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

I didn't know this. What a waste. I presumed they would pitch him 40 times a year then , between starts, they would (do something like) park his ass at first base for the other 120 games. Why let that bat ride the bench?

Because he wasn't even 23 yet and didn't have the pop for home runs in his bat...

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ruthba01.shtml

[Mike Honcho 5,281]

Quote

 

In an effort to enable the Los Angeles Dodgers to continue spending around stars Ohtani, Mookie Betts and Freddie Freeman, Ohtani agreed to defer all but $2 million of his annual salary — $68 million of his $70 million per year — until after the completion of the contract. The deferred money is to be paid out without interest from 2034 to 2043.

The previously unreported deferrals were said to be suggested by Ohtani himself as the negotiations vaulted the figure towards $700 million, the person briefed on the terms told The Athletic. The deal is expected to soon be finalized.

The unusual structure is intended to provide the Dodgers additional cash flow and payroll flexibility. In the meantime, Ohtani continues to bring in big dollars elsewhere from endorsements and off-the-field ventures. Ohtani is believed to make $50 million per year annually away from the diamond, the person briefed on the terms told The Athletic.

The deferrals also give Dodgers extra freedom navigating the competitive balance tax, or luxury tax as it’s called. For CBT purposes, the expected average annual value on the contract is said to be about $46 million per year, people briefed on the terms said. The $46 million average annual value is still the highest in MLB history, topping the $43.3 million average annual value Max Scherzer received in agreeing to a three-year deal with the New York Mets in 2021.

 

 

So even after averaging his contract until 2043, it's still the highest average annual value in baseball! 

[Voltaire 5,316]

9 minutes ago, Mike Honcho said:

 

So even after averaging his contract until 2043, it's still the highest average annual value in baseball! 

Ohtani gives you two elite players in one roster spot. Of course, you risk them both getting hurt at the same time.

[Mookz 1,348]

16 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

Ohtani gives you two elite players in one roster spot. Of course, you risk them both getting hurt at the same time.

They should really take separate plane flights just to be safe. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,546]

21 hours ago, posty said:

Because he wasn't even 23 yet and didn't have the pop for home runs in his bat...

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ruthba01.shtml

Yup.  Prior to becoming a true power presence, Ruth had a total of just over 400 plate appearances and 890 IP over 3+ seasons.  In that same time frame, which you may hear people argue is a harder brand of baseball ,  Greg Maddux had 250 plate appearances 674 IP.  I guess Maddux was a great two-way player too.  

[TBayXXXVII 2,546]

Back to Ohtani, on the field he will NEVER be worth his pay.  Next year he won't pitch at all, maybe in the post-season.  To some, that may justify the money.  The thing is, he's had 2 TJ's in the last 5 years.  One more, and he literally may never pitch again.  Let's say that based on averages, he's likely to get one in 2027... so he'll pitch ever 6 days (like with the Angels... maybe even less), and hit as DH for the 3 seasons after next.  The final 6 years of his deal, he'll be a $70M AAV designated hitter.  So, 0% chance that he actually earns his money on the field.  Where he'll earn the money (for the Dodgers), is off the field.  There, he'll probably be making pennies on the dollar compared to what the Dodgers make.  Again, this is why baseball needs a salary cap.

[League Champion 1,911]

I bet he's good at ping pong

[Voltaire 5,316]

24 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Back to Ohtani, on the field he will NEVER be worth his pay.  Next year he won't pitch at all, maybe in the post-season.  To some, that may justify the money.  The thing is, he's had 2 TJ's in the last 5 years.  One more, and he literally may never pitch again.  Let's say that based on averages, he's likely to get one in 2027... so he'll pitch ever 6 days (like with the Angels... maybe even less), and hit as DH for the 3 seasons after next.  The final 6 years of his deal, he'll be a $70M AAV designated hitter.  So, 0% chance that he actually earns his money on the field.  Where he'll earn the money (for the Dodgers), is off the field.  There, he'll probably be making pennies on the dollar compared to what the Dodgers make.  Again, this is why baseball needs a salary cap.

Well, one thing, he won't be doing much DHing. He could do that with the Angels but now he's in the National League.

[TBayXXXVII 2,546]

Just now, Voltaire said:

Well, one thing, he won't be DHing. He could do that with the Angels but now he's in the National League.

National League converted to the DH 2 years ago.

[Voltaire 5,316]

3 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

National League converted to the DH 2 years ago.