The Martz Hype...

[Wildman 0]

I see a lot of threads about what Martz will bring to Detroit's skill positions. Kevin Jones is now a sleeper, Jon Kitna is a fashionable late-round guy, and Williams is going to generate breakout numbers. I'm guilty of some of these thoughts (mainly the last two points).

 

But there is something that irks me lately as I consider Marc Bulger moving to an offense that should emphasize the running game and short passing game to an extent that the Rams QB should take fewer hits (less 7-step drops, intermediate/deep routes in pressure situations, etc.).

 

Anyone else thinking we need to analyze the Detroit o-line, first? Depending on what we find, we might be able to see if the Lions QBs are about to be in for one of the worst beatings of their lives or the hype is worth considering.

 

Just from a cursory look, Detroit allowed 31 sacks last year, tied for 10th best in the NFL. I then looked closer at sacks/attempt and they were 11th best. Looks pretty good. I know Detroit gets a lot of ribbing on this forum, but this is the type of team where we should study them enough to make good decisions on mid-late round players that could be the difference in you winning/losing your league....

 

Any changes to the Detroit offensive line? Should we expect a rise or drop in the sacks allowed? I would think we would see more sacks due to more chances to throw. Detroit was 14th in passing attempts. This means their sack/attempt ratio was actually pretty good, but Mariucci ran a more west coast oriented attack. A downfield attack like Martz's requires more time to hold onto the ball.

 

Any thoughts to add that might help us consider if the hype is more about Martz's rep is more about the match between Martz and the talent?

[Kilroy 0]

I can't say I know enough to analyze the Lions O-line, but the only player I'd be excited about on that team right now is Roy Williams. He's impressed me whenever I've seen him and in my opinion he's such a talent that regardless of where he plays, he will always be a dominant presence. Being in Martz' system should clearly benefit him as he is likely to get a lot of deep balls, but the guy is alread averaging over 15 a catch his first two years in the league. If he stays healthy he should have a great season.

 

There's good reason for Kitna to be seen as a nice late round pick, but I don't see him being someone I'll regret passing on if he's nabbed before I can get him. He should make a solid #2QB, but does anyone really see him jumping to a level where you'd consider starting him every week? I just don't see it happening. Not many coaches can take over a bad team and turn around in year one. It's not a knock on the staff or even Kitna himself, it's just something that is difficult to do.

 

Kevin Jones should be a solid back if he stays healthy, but I'm not picturing his best case scenario being much higher than the 18-24 range in RB rankings by years end.

[Parkers99 0]

Great post. No doubt the O line will make or break this offense... isn't that true everywhere? Kitna certainly won't have the benefit of Orlando Pace watching his blind-side.

 

Truthfully, Detroit has been a fantasy wasteland for so long, I've not really followed their O'line very well. I hope we can get some quality input from the Lion homers. Here is a list to get us started:

 

Pos. No. Name Ht. Wt . Age Exp. College

C 51 Dominic Raiola 6-1 295 27 6 Nebraska

C 60 Dave Pearson 6-3 287 24 1 Michigan

G 61 Frank Davis 6-4 326 24 R South Florida

G 63 Brock Gutierrez 6-3 304 32 10 Central Michigan

G 64 Rick DeMulling 6-4 304 28 6 Idaho

G 65 Damien Woody 6-3 325 28 8 Boston College

G 66 Levi Newton 6-4 310 22 1 South Florida

G 67 Fred Matua 6-2 307 22 R Southern California

G 68 Barry Stokes 6-4 310 32 7 Eastern Michigan

G 69 Tyrone Hopson 6-2 300 29 5 Eastern Kentucky

G 70 Matt McGhghy 6-3 296 24 1 Northern Illinois

G 73 Ross Verba 6-4 305 32 10 Iowa

G 74 Rex Tucker 6-5 315 29 8 Texas A&M

T 61 Tom Kaleita 6-6 318 22 1 Eastern Michigan

T 62 Clint Stickdorn 6-5 307 23 1 Cincinnati

T 66 Jonathan Scott 6-6 315 23 R Texas

T 76 Jeff Backus 6-5 305 28 6 Michigan

T 77 Courtney VanBuren 6-6 350 26 4 Arkansas-Pine Bluff

T 79 Kelly Butler 6-7 334 23 3 Purdue

 

 

Interesting (but not very useful) link on the Detroit O'line below:

http://www.detroitlions.com/document_displ...ument_id=445306

 

I recently ranked what I consider to be the top 20 O'lines for this season. Detroit didn't make the cut, but truthfully, they are in such a state of flux I haven't any idea where to rank them... 23rd maybe?

http://www.fftodayforums.com/forum/index.p...howtopic=212833

 

I googled "offensive line rankings" and came up with this:

http://www.fantasytailgate.com/O-LINE.html

I've never been to that site & I don't know who wrote the ranking... but since his top 20 are similar to mine, I'm going to assume he's a genius

[sharkie22 0]

Also a good idea to consider it took Martz a couple seasons to get the St. Louis offense clicking and that was begun with (in my opinion) better personnel than what he has in Detroit. To compare Kevin Jones to Marshall Faulk is a stretch to say the least and as good as Roy Williams may prove to be he doesn't have the benefit of learning from a veteran as Holt did with Bruce. I also don't know what to make of the Lions o-line but they've had their fair share of injuries to key players so even being optomistic about them I'd say they aren't as good as what Martz started with in St. Louis either. For this season, the only way I'd draft a Lions player is if he falls below where they are being taken now.

[luckdogg17 0]

actually, the rams won the superbowl in martz's first year in saint louis.

 

still, i think martz is over-rated and was a flash in the pan. for the last few years i think a big reason the rams posted good offensive numbers was more about bad defense, playing from behind, and constant passing and less about martz's alleged offensive genius.

 

some improvement in detroit wouldn't surprise me though. i'm not that familiar with the situation in detroit but it seems like the most important thing this coaching staff can do is instill some discipline and work ethic in this team and hopefully change the loser attitude.

 

there also seems to be a risk of the players revolting and not wanting to buy in to the changes. personally, i wouldn't mind if this happened because i've grown to not particularly care for martz after the last few years of his nonsense in saint louis.

[t.j 35]

Wildman, you bring up an important point that Detroit's sack numbers likely having benefitted from the west coast offense. But perhaps the answer you are looking for is that Martz offense doesn't seem to require low sack numbers in order to be effective. The Rams have ranked 27th, 27th, 29th, 28th, and 20th in sacked allowed dating back to 2001. Yet they've ranked 9th, 6th, 9th, 13th, and 1st in total offense in those years. That tells me that the chances they are taking are paying off, at least in terms of yardage. Martz seems willing to sacrifice a few drives per game due to sacks in order to gain yardage in bigger chunks.

 

Can we expect Detroit's sack ranking to drop from T10th? Absolutely. But they could drop 17 spots and it not be a big concern, because that would put them where the Rams have been! Granted, if the Lions get sacked as often as the Rams but have lesser skill position talent, their numbers won't be as good. But there's definitely reason to hope that they'll end up looking something like 22nd in sacks allowed and 10th in total offense. (Which would be a huge jump as they were 27th in total offense last year.)

 

still, i think martz is over-rated and was a flash in the pan. for the last few years i think a big reason the rams posted good offensive numbers was more about bad defense, playing from behind, and constant passing and less about martz's alleged offensive genius.

 

The offensive genius label is one that is always going to have a backlash from fans (just ask Brian Billick). There are different types of offensive coaching prowess. For example, Bill Parcells and Bill Cowher aren't known as great offensive minds, but they are among the best at what Martz is most criticized for... game management and strategy through play-calling. Both Parcells and Cowher are conservative as hell with the lead and aggressive as hell when behind. And they're good coaches because they know how to build a team that can be successful both ways. Martz drives people nuts because he is aggressive as hell all the time. But what he has special talent at is downfield passing. There are a lot of head coaches and offensive coordinators who simply don't have a clue how to consistently get 10-20 yard gains with the passing game. Who are terrified of 3rd and long. That's where Martz is great. A lot of teams desperately need that ability and that's why he gets an offensive genius label.

 

Offensive genius is not really an accurate label for Martz because offensive genius implies overall offense and Martz specializes in a part of offense. That said, it's the part of offense that is most responsible for racking up yardage and points, and that's why FF owners are excited. (Detroit fans, on the other hand, should temper their expectations because it comes with drawbacks in ball control and clock management.)

[Wildman 0]

Good point T.J. (and good posts everyone else)...I guess my concern is the depth with Detroit. When Warner went down, Bulger took his place. Then again after Bulger there really wasn't much but the skill positions were good enough to possibly make it easier on the QB? Is there enough depth in Detroit to keep the offenise humming? I just don't see it. I've never been a Josh McCown fan.

[pollardposse 0]

Where the hell do some people get their information? Who just posted "it took martz a couple years......." WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!

The Rams LED THE LEAGUE in scoring in Martz's FIRST SEASON as the offensive guru. LOOK ###### UP BEFORE YOU POST.

Jesus, there is more BS posted at this site.......

[Wildman 0]

Not any more mistakes than you'll find other places. I know it can be frustrating to see inaccuracies sometimes, but there were enough good posts about this topic that we don't have to dwell on an inaccurate take if we don't want to...

 

Anyone else have a take on the Lions offensive line meshing with Martz's system and what it means for fantasy skill players?

[famousb 11]

Anyone else have a take on the Lions offensive line meshing with Martz's system and what it means for fantasy skill players?

 

ask Kurt Warner if he thinks Martz had a good offensive line in all of those years in STL... from looking at those stats, i think the only coach that cared less about protecting his QB was Steve Spurrier...

 

Seriously though, i think t.j. said it pretty good. Martz never seemed to worry about how many times the QB got sacked in that system, but then again (and my timeline may be off going off the top of my head here), they did have one outstanding T there in Orlando Pace, and one very good (yet insane) one in Kyle Turley. It would be interesting (yet there is almost no way to do it) to know the "average play time per sack" to see if most of those sacks in STL were due to poor line blocking and quick blitzes (which seems to have been the problem in DET because Joey and Jeff were getting no time), or if it was more from the QB holding onto the ball a little too long waiting for a WR to get open. Just looking at the Ts they had in STL I would guess it would've been the later, but i also don't really remember too much of those games anymore - at least not to that detail level. That would not bode well for DET if that was the case...

[Zackattack 0]

detroits offense has to get better guys c'mon. Roy will play hard this year and be huge. Martz is no the head coach any way. He is not making all the calls on offense.

[uubeee 0]

If I remember correctly, STL had a very impressive OL. Pace, Turley, Timmerman, etc. The fact that the QB was sacked so much, IMHO, had to do with 2 things...

 

1. Warner often held onto the ball too long.

2. The longer drops gave the opposing teams more time to rush the passer.

 

Warner started to develop quick feet, got antsy in the pocket. Look at his TD/INT ratio the longer he was in the system...

 

41/13

21/18

36/22

3/11

 

He had 31 fumbles over that span and lost 12 of them.

 

Based on my observations, I think DET might put up good numbers on offense, but unless the QB is tough as nails, it won't be long before the INT's or injuries start to mount.

 

Some of other observations...

 

1. Kevin Jones is no Marshall Faulk.

2. Jon Kitna is no Kurt Warner(of old).

3. DET OL is not as good as the STL OL was.

4. DET WR's are not as good as the STL WR's were.

 

While Detroits numbers should most definately rise with Martz in place, however, it seems unlikely that they will produce like the ST Louis team did under his direction.

[paulinstl 295]

Also a good idea to consider it took Martz a couple seasons to get the St. Louis offense clicking and that was begun with (in my opinion) better personnel than what he has in Detroit. To compare Kevin Jones to Marshall Faulk is a stretch to say the least and as good as Roy Williams may prove to be he doesn't have the benefit of learning from a veteran as Holt did with Bruce. I also don't know what to make of the Lions o-line but they've had their fair share of injuries to key players so even being optomistic about them I'd say they aren't as good as what Martz started with in St. Louis either. For this season, the only way I'd draft a Lions player is if he falls below where they are being taken now.

 

 

Good post. The only thing I disagree with is that Martz took a couple of years to get Rams' offense clicking. His first year as Offensive Coordinator, the Rams led the league in scoring with 526 points, or over 32 points per game. They were #1 in passing yards, passing TDs and yards per attempt. They were 5th in rushing yardage and 2nd in rushing yards per attempt. The 2nd rated offense that year had 83 fewer points scored and over 600 fewer yards gained.

[t.j 35]

1. Warner often held onto the ball too long.

2. The longer drops gave the opposing teams more time to rush the passer.

 

Warner started to develop quick feet, got antsy in the pocket. Look at his TD/INT ratio the longer he was in the system...

 

41/13

21/18

36/22

3/11

 

He had 31 fumbles over that span and lost 12 of them.

 

Based on my observations, I think DET might put up good numbers on offense, but unless the QB is tough as nails, it won't be long before the INT's or injuries start to mount.

 

It's not really fair to include the 4th year with those numbers, that can be attributed to his thumb injury. I think defenses also started to figure out how to defend the Rams after the first year. The first year was also the only one that Faulk started all 16 games. They also lost RT Fred Miller after that first year. (Turley actually didn't come to STL until 2003). I think it's true that he developed happy feet somewhat, but I think there were bigger factors that contributed to the decline in his numbers.

 

Some of other observations...

 

1. Kevin Jones is no Marshall Faulk.

2. Jon Kitna is no Kurt Warner(of old).

3. DET OL is not as good as the STL OL was.

4. DET WR's are not as good as the STL WR's were.

 

While Detroits numbers should most definately rise with Martz in place, however, it seems unlikely that they will produce like the ST Louis team did under his direction.

 

I agree with you in general. I like Jones but Faulk was just about as good as they come. I'm not sure Kitna is a lesser QB than Warner. Who was Warner before Martz? Who was Bulger for that matter? We'll see what Martz can do with Kitna, and McCown for that matter, both of whom have been productive QBs in the past (although they have not won a lot). I don't know enough about the Detroit OL to say if it's comparable. I like Woody, Raiola, and Backus. Pace and Timmerman were great and Nutten was a good center for the Rams, but their other linemen were garbage. I agree about the WRs, but they could surprise. Holt has hands on Roy Williams but RW is a superior athletic talent who has shown that he can dominate. Rogers has a long way to go to prove he deserves to be compared to Bruce, and St. Louis also had very effective #3 and #4 WRs in Hakim and Proehl.

[sharkie22 0]

To all concerned, please accept my formal apology for mistakenly saying it took Martz a couple years before the Rams offense clicked. I erroneously believed he was in his second year when they won the Superbowl. Obviously I did not double check the facts before I typed this and will certainly make it a point to check on future comments. Thank you for your understanding.

[swamp dog 0]

i see a lot of posts that badmouth martz, claim he's a poser who rode the coattails of star players to success. not sure what threads it is you're talking about.

 

people want to slice and dice him and make it negative because it concerns the lions. obviously, the lions can do nothing--nothing--right, right? hence any move they make is obviously a bad one. the minute martz was hired everyone started looking for all the problems with the hire and everything that was wrong about the hire.

 

knowing that, you can chill and relax now.

[t.j 35]

i see a lot of posts that badmouth martz, claim he's a poser who rode the coattails of star players to success. not sure what threads it is you're talking about.

 

people want to slice and dice him and make it negative because it concerns the lions. obviously, the lions can do nothing--nothing--right, right? hence any move they make is obviously a bad one. the minute martz was hired everyone started looking for all the problems with the hire and everything that was wrong about the hire.

 

knowing that, you can chill and relax now.

 

Dude, you need to take a chill pill and save paranoid rants like this for the geek board.

[swamp dog 0]

Dude, you need to take a chill pill and save paranoid rants like this for the geek board.

 

no worries. i could care less one way or the other. just pointing out the obvious. what anyone thinks--positively or negatively--here won't affect any nfl team or its record this year.

 

cheers.

[t.j 35]

no worries. i could care less one way or the other. just pointing out the obvious. what anyone thinks--positively or negatively--here won't affect any nfl team or its record this year.

 

cheers.

 

You're right, swamp, the opinions on this board won't affect the records of the NFL teams this year. Hopefully, though, they'll affect the records of the FF teams of the members here. Which is the purpose of this site. (Just pointing out the obvious... but you seem to have forgotten.)

[swamp dog 0]

You're right, swamp, the opinions on this board won't affect the records of the NFL teams this year. Hopefully, though, they'll affect the records of the FF teams of the members here. Which is the purpose of this site. (Just pointing out the obvious... but you seem to have forgotten.)

 

don't let roy williams slip too far in your drafts, then.

 

there's your free ff tip for the day.

[Walter34 3]

People seem to give Martz far too much credit for SL's success. He certainly had a part in their success, but there was more to it than just Martz.

 

1. People seem to forget about Vermeil's role in SLs success. Under his leadership, the O was the best SL had for the past number of years. #1 overall, #1 passing, #5 rushing. Vermeil was able to run a balanced offence and produced better numbers in SL and then subsequently in KC, produced better numbers than Martz with arguably less talent. Green/Holmes/Gonzo vs Bulger/Faulk/Holt/Bruce?

 

The following shows the overall rank, breakdown of pass and rush ranks and then record for both martz and vermeil since 1999:

 

Martz

-------Rank - Pass - Rush - Record
1999	1	  1	  5	  13-3 (OC)
2000	1	  1	  17	 10-6
2001	1	  1	  5	  14-2
2002	9	  2	  30	 7-9
2003	7	  2	  30	 12-4
2004	6	  4	  25	 8-8
2005	6	  2	  22	 6-10

Vermeil

-------Rank - Pass - Rush - Record
1999	1	  1	  5	  13-3	
2000	8	  4	  25	 7-9
2001	4	  6	  6	  13-3
2002	5	 12	  3	  8-8
2003	2	  4	  15	 13-3
2004	1	  3	  5	  7-9
2005	1	  5	  4	  10-6

 

Vermeil had better ranking overall and had arguably less talent to work with. He posted great numbers with passing Os in SL, but also added a strong rush game to his teams. As the numbers above show, martz is just a passing coach and not an overall offensive "genious". The point is that while martz was certainly a factor in the Ram's success, I think he had shortcomings that didnt take that offence as far as it could have gone and that Vermeil was just as likely the builder that put it in place.

 

2. Too many people are not respecting the players that SL had. Mentioning that warner was made by Martz or others flourished under him. This team was loaded and the talent was legit.

• Faulk had great years previously. 1804 yds and 12 TDs as a rookie. 2227 yds the year before he went to SL. He did thrive under Martz and Vermeil, but the talent and production was there to begin with.
  
• Bruce had the 2nd best WR year of all time before Martz or Vermeil ever came to SL and another 1300 yd season. Again, the talent was there.
  
• Warner is the favourite target of the Martz - genious camp, but simple coaching cannot produce the staggering numbers he put up. He had both accuracy (career 65%) and a very high yds / attempt (career 8.2). In 1999, SL was 20th in pass attempts, yet they were 5th in completions and 1st in yards passing. In simple terms, this tells us that they didnt throw even at an average pace, yet the numbers were awesome based on the qbs ability to throw the accurate long ball. People are selling Warner short here by giving all the credit to coaching. Despite being a late bloomer, Warner had rare talent. Even in NY and Arizona, his accuracy was still there.
  

 

The point here is not to dismiss Martz's contributions or talents, but to illustrate that there was alot of things that came together to make SL a great O. Head coach, OC, HOF and all pro talent, turf, and opposition in a weaker division.

 

In Detroit, the question now is how much will the O improve. It likely will based solely on the players themselves. Younger players will be better this year just based on another years experience. QB should be better because it couldnt be much worse than last year. The same can be said for coaching where the Mooch / Jauron combo was extremely ineffective last year.

 

Even still, some things need to happen to show improvements:

 

Consistency at qb. Kitna has had some success in the past. He can do it again, but has been on the shelf for two years. In his most recent games, he has not been very effective. Over the past 9 games he has played, he has a 59% comp %, 6 Tds and 10 INTs. He now learns a new system that might favour a qbs pass numbers, but may have a learning curve. Kitna eventually had good numbers in Cinci, but his 1st year there was pretty bad as he adjusted to the new environment.

 

Coaching philosophy. Marinelli is a defensive coach that wants to run the ball. Martz is an offensive coach that wants to throw. Part of a D coach's philosophy is ball control where you dont leave your D on the field too much and establish a ground game. This goes against what martz has traditionally done. How will the disparate philosophies mix and when push comes to shove, will Martz have to change his game plan? He may say that he will establish the run, but has claimed this before and then abansoned it by the 2nd quarter. Will the egos clash? This is Rod's team and he is there for the long haul. martz may have his eye on a head coach job for 2007. How Martz buys into the 2nd fiddle role is critical to Det's success.

 

WRs need to step up. The group obviously has the talent but have under achieved dramatically. Roy is the best of the bunch, but has had work ethic and team work issues. Can he focus and be coached? Can he stay healthy or play through the nagging injuries? Not too many worries with him, but some areas that need improvement for sure. Rogers and to a lesser extent MW need to rise up from the ashes. These two are a much larger concern. No need to rehash the questions around these two.

 

The oline needs to improve. 26th ranked in rushing with a 3.6 avg. Can this line open holes for the RBs? Another big red flag to be concerned about. Last years signing of Demulling was a gaffe and we dont see a legit fillin for this season. Several journeymen or spare parts have been brought in, but its iffy if we will see any improvement.

 

The RBs appear in good shape with some quality and depth.

 

As others have mentioned, there is no comparison to the Rams teams that martz lead:

 

SL Qbs > Kitna

Faulk > Jones

SL WRs > Det WRs

SL OL > Det OL

Dome / Turf > Ford Field

 

Overall, Det ranked 26th in rushing and 26th in passing. How much improvement can we expect in a new system, new coaches, a decent journeyman qb and the maturation of young players? Some definately, but until we see some preseason action, there will be alot of ifs and maybes involved.

 

Things to keep an eye out for are:

 

* Team buyin and hard work

* Offensive game plans - run vs pass

* Qb / Wr timing

 

The bottomline, if Det can get both their rushing and passing ranks into the 15-20 range, it will be a great success for this season.

[swamp dog 0]

walter, how in the hell do you find the time to post such a treatise with a new baby at home

 

but thanks for proving the theory i presented in my earlier post.

 

for the record, the lions signned 6 o-linemen in free agency (including verba, who showed up last week in great shape and whom beightol said looked "awesome"), and drafted 2: scott (who may start his career at guard) and matua of osc.

 

granted, these aren't hutchinsons but there is upgrade in there at the guard position.

 

the line will be better than most people think--simply because most people (like you) think it will be god-awful.

[Walter34 3]

the line will be better than most people think--simply because most people (like you) think it will be god-awful.

 

good theory.

 

The throw shiat against a wall and see what sticks approach is one way to go about it. Good luck with that.

 

You may seem persecuted or that the world is against the Lions, but it is what it is. History is against you and they still have to prove themselves before the doubters will be silenced. If you read the post, I did predict some improvement and outlined what has to happen in order for that to happen. If you disagree with any of the points, by all means address them.

 

As for the baby, I started this reply yesterday some time and couldnt finish it until today. If I'm slow to respond to a post, you know why. Having a great time with the little one.

[Savage Beast 1]

Where the hell do some people get their information? Who just posted "it took martz a couple years......." WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!

The Rams LED THE LEAGUE in scoring in Martz's FIRST SEASON as the offensive guru. LOOK ###### UP BEFORE YOU POST.

Jesus, there is more BS posted at this site.......

 

No kidding. 99% of the posters around here are fantasy football numb nuts, and can't figure out their elbows from their a-holes when it comes to their fantasy drafts and fantasy teams. I mean you have guys comparing K.Barlow to R.Brown in the RB skill department????????????? WTF????????????? numb nuts.

[NOSRAC247 0]

Walter, great research, thank you for clearing things up for all these guys.

[t.j 35]

The following shows the overall rank, breakdown of pass and rush ranks and then record for both martz and vermeil since 1999:

 

Martz

-------Rank - Pass - Rush - Record
1999	1	  1	  5	  13-3 (OC)
2000	1	  1	  17	 10-6
2001	1	  1	  5	  14-2
2002	9	  2	  30	 7-9
2003	7	  2	  30	 12-4
2004	6	  4	  25	 8-8
2005	6	  2	  22	 6-10

Vermeil

-------Rank - Pass - Rush - Record
1999	1	  1	  5	  13-3	
2000	8	  4	  25	 7-9
2001	4	  6	  6	  13-3
2002	5	 12	  3	  8-8
2003	2	  4	  15	 13-3
2004	1	  3	  5	  7-9
2005	1	  5	  4	  10-6

 

Vermeil had better ranking overall and had arguably less talent to work with. He posted great numbers with passing Os in SL, but also added a strong rush game to his teams. As the numbers above show, martz is just a passing coach and not an overall offensive "genious". The point is that while martz was certainly a factor in the Ram's success, I think he had shortcomings that didnt take that offence as far as it could have gone and that Vermeil was just as likely the builder that put it in place.

 

In 2000 and 2001, Martz had more talent to work with, when Warner was healthy and Faulk was still on top of his game, and Hakim and Proehl were still around. And the Rams were still the #1 offense without Vermeil.

 

Since then, Warner's been gone, Bulger hasn't been able to stay healthy, and Faulk has declined physically at a rapid pace. Beginning in 2002, Kansas City's offense has had far superior talent. Trent Green (who Martz trained in both Washington and St. Louis), that dominant offensive line, the then-best tight end in the game, and Priest Holmes. Having Al Saunders as his OC didn't hurt him from a coaching standpoint either.

[onejayhawk 3]

Not any more mistakes than you'll find other places. I know it can be frustrating to see inaccuracies sometimes, but there were enough good posts about this topic that we don't have to dwell on an inaccurate take if we don't want to...

 

Anyone else have a take on the Lions offensive line meshing with Martz's system and what it means for fantasy skill players?

According to the Footballoutsiders rankings, Detroit was middle of the league in line play last year, #14 overall. They have some tools.

 

To those that think Martz was the genius behind the Ram's run, remember he was the new OC, but Vermiel was in his 3rd year.

 

J

[famousb 11]

In 2000 and 2001, Martz had more talent to work with, when Warner was healthy and Faulk was still on top of his game, and Hakim and Proehl were still around. And the Rams were still the #1 offense without Vermeil.

 

Since then, Warner's been gone, Bulger hasn't been able to stay healthy, and Faulk has declined physically at a rapid pace. Beginning in 2002, Kansas City's offense has had far superior talent. Trent Green (who Martz trained in both Washington and St. Louis), that dominant offensive line, the then-best tight end in the game, and Priest Holmes. Having Al Saunders as his OC didn't hurt him from a coaching standpoint either.

 

so basically you are saying that Martz is good at taking the personnel that someone else put together, and made into a winning team, and keeping it that way, but is incapable of bringing in more good players to perpetuate that winning tradition. Whereas Vermeil can take a team, judge good players, put them together and can build a winning program??

 

So who was the better coach, Jimmy Johnson or Barry Switzer? Switzer put together 3 winning seasons w/ Johnson's personnel - but you don't ever see any interviews with Switzer trying to get him to come back and be a head coach again...

[t.j 35]

so basically you are saying that Martz is good at taking the personnel that someone else put together, and made into a winning team, and keeping it that way, but is incapable of bringing in more good players to perpetuate that winning tradition. Whereas Vermeil can take a team, judge good players, put them together and can build a winning program??

 

No, that's not remotely close to being basically what I was saying. At any rate, Martz is now an OC, not a HC, for good reason.

[Walter34 3]

No, that's not remotely close to being basically what I was saying. At any rate, Martz is an OC now now a HC, for good reason.

 

Without splitting hairs, a key flaw with Martz is his inability to implement a balanced offence. With no commitment to the run, you need all world talent in the passing game to succeed. How Marinelli will influence their game plan is huge. If they are run first and ball control, does that cut martz strength off? If the throw all day, do they have the talent to pull it off like SL did? Will the two egos clash eventually? Interesting questions.

[uubeee 0]

You know, it's a funny thing about the "Genius" label. Many guys have been labeled "Genius" and many guys have been labeled "bust". But different situations call for different labels. Some guys have been labeled both.

 

For instance....

 

1. Bill Belichek was labeled a "bust" or "loser" for his HC stint in Cleveland. And he was, but he was labeled a defensive "Guru" in his DC stints with Parcells. And now as a "Genius" as the NE HC. And last season without his OC and DC from past years, was kinda a flop.

 

2. Brian Billick was labeled a OC "Genius" in Minny and as such, got a HC gig in Balt. But hasn't done much since that 1 SB title that was won on the DC side of the ball.

 

3. Mike Holmgren was labeled a "Genius" during his stay in GB, and then again recently in Seattle. But there was about 10 years seperation there.

 

4. Mike Martz was labeled a "Genius" for his work in STL. But he showed some decline in his Offensive "Guru" ways the last couple of seasons.

 

So my question to all of you is.....

 

Is the label "Genius" based more on situations and the ability to surround yourself with both the talent of players and the talent of coaches? Or is "Genius" just the ability to take a franchise to a SB victory?

 

I think "Genius" is labeled far too often. IMHO. I think great coaches know how to surround themselves with great coaches and know how to scout great players. I think great coaches don't come in a turn a franchise around in 1 year. I don't think Martz turned the Rams into a SB team in 1 year. I think he improved upon what was already in place. I think Bill Belichik built himself a great team of players with some frigin awesome staff around himself. I think the likes of Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcells, Tom Landry, etc etc have been able to surround themselves with great talent both in coaches and in players. I think guys like Jimmy Johnson come in and build. They don't turn things around in a season. Cowher has moved OC's and DC's around for years. He gets good guys to help him build. And it makes or breaks his teams.

 

So, that's my opinion. Martz has talent to coach an offensive up. But is his talent enough to take what has been falling apart in Detroit for years under Millen and gang, and build it into a winner? I guess we'll see....

[swamp dog 0]

According to the Footballoutsiders rankings, Detroit was middle of the league in line play last year, #14 overall. They have some tools.

 

To those that think Martz was the genius behind the Ram's run, remember he was the new OC, but Vermiel was in his 3rd year.

 

J

 

yep, that stat has been thrown around here a few times--and quickly and quietly ignored.

 

again, detroit's line isn't as bad as some (*cough* walter) are making it out to be. but when you're on the 1-yard line and run 4 plays right at grady jackson--with raiola matched up 1-on-1 and the defense knowing your calls--your line is going to look and play terrible. there was a lot of that going on last year: poor line calls, defensive jumps on the ball. a LOT of that.

 

 

Without splitting hairs, a key flaw with Martz is his inability to implement a balanced offence. With no commitment to the run, you need all world talent in the passing game to succeed. How Marinelli will influence their game plan is huge. If they are run first and ball control, does that cut martz strength off? If the throw all day, do they have the talent to pull it off like SL did? Will the two egos clash eventually? Interesting questions.

 

martz's success isn't predicated on throwing the ball 60 times a game--it's predicated on the type of play/route used when he does call a pass play. you imply here that it's sheer numbers: martz is successful by sheer volume of pass plays or something.

[Cavaliere19 0]

Lions homer here (not a fan, just a witness to the car accident of a franchise)

 

One point to make here about the o-line that is being underscored is Marinelli. I know he's known for his defensive coaching, but I think you'll see that mentality rub off on the o-line. They have talent, but Mooch was a tentative a playcaller as he was a coach. Marinelli is anything but from all accounts I've heard. O-line is as much about attitute as it is about talent.

 

More than anything else, this Lions team needed an attitude adjustment, and I think they are getting it. The previous coaching staff was never aggressive in the playcalling, and Martz is going to change that. The Lions have offensive skill players (namely Roy and KJ) that thrive off of attacking based schemes. Mooch was happy with playing safe and getting 5 yards a play.

[9-Route 0]

great posts guys, especially walt/matt/tj.

 

i remember once upon a time in high school, we told a girl that coaches in the booth actually play madden and figure out which plays work---then call those plays to the coaches on the field and thats what they run. she bought it.

 

martz is like that madden player---when he finds a play that works, he milks it. he doesnt care about down and distance, because he knows if executed correctly, the pass plays can/should/will produce big yardage gains (20+yds). martz has that swagger of the madden player who says, "i dont care what the score or situation is, im going with what got me here, and what makes me look cool." look at holt and bruce---they are in the top 7 as far as 20yd-reception totals and % of rec that net 20yds. this is because of aforementioned 5 and 7 step dropbacks, as well as sacks worsening the down and distance.

 

i like the point about the quality of the ram o-line in its prime. pace and turley were machines, and timmerman was still a top6 guard leaguewide; yet, as stated, the qbs endured some big hits and fumbled a lot. i think peak personnel had a lot more to do with their success than martz. for example, everyone ranks bulger highly, and i always post a rebuttal highlighting his paltry(?) td totals. in its prime, the ram pass game was indeed a juggernaut, but hardly at such a level anymore.

 

whether martz can take what talent and pieces the lions have and turn it into a "mini-rams offense" remains to be seen. i tend to lean towards 'no', but thats just me.

[t.j 35]

i like the point about the quality of the ram o-line in its prime. pace and turley were machines, and timmerman was still a top6 guard leaguewide

 

Again, Turley was only played for the Rams one year, 2003. Bulger had a pretty good year that year, but Faulk missed 5 games.