Vikings4ever 550 Posted August 19, 2006 Now that you have posted the rules it is even more clear to me that you play in a league full of retards. Just tell the dipwads that they have to declare their keepers before they trade if it is that big a deal. Or maybe your commish should grow a set and make a decision that does not require screwing someone over BIG TIME!!!!!!!!! P.S I may be a di*k, but your league is filled with a bunch of as*holes!!!!! Retarded As*holes. No reason at all that there has to be a redraft. If the vote comes in as a tie, the commish's vote breaks the tie. If I were the guy with LJ and Fitz, I'd be threatening to quit too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadow2k 0 Posted August 19, 2006 Yeah, completely trashing the keepers is way too drastic. Let the trade stand, as per the written rules. Let the owners vote on whether they want to amend the rules for next year. You do not change rules mid-season (your season is draft to draft). Unless you can get 100% of the owners to agree to change it mid-season...but my league would never even consider holding that vote, we'd just deal with it and change it for next year. Only fair way to do it, everyone plays by the same rules, not just until someone doesn't like the outcome of one of them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomServo 0 Posted August 19, 2006 After seeing these very basic rules, it's completely obvious that THERE IS NO REASON TO RE-DRAFT. Vote to allow the trade, or to invalidate the trade, and that's all that's necessary, as that's the only missing rule in this mess. Screwing everyone else's teams over to make up for the commish's mistake is just stupid. In my league, we allow pre-keeper offseason trades, but we're an auction league, so there's no draft pick association... you're not required to keep a traded-for player, since NOBODY knows who's going to get injured prior to the keeper deadline. As it is, offseason trades (including draft picks) are allowed, so it boggles the mind how the argument even got this far. Oh, and just so you know, you're being a holier-than-thou do-no-wrong type, and it's taken you ten posts to give the forum readers what they asked for. You wrongly assume we're all a bunch of self-centered egotists, when the majority of respondents probably commish or co-commish leagues. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shakespeare 0 Posted August 19, 2006 After seeing these very basic rules, it's completely obvious that THERE IS NO REASON TO RE-DRAFT. Vote to allow the trade, or to invalidate the trade, and that's all that's necessary, as that's the only missing rule in this mess. Screwing everyone else's teams over to make up for the commish's mistake is just stupid. In my league, we allow pre-keeper offseason trades, but we're an auction league, so there's no draft pick association... you're not required to keep a traded-for player, since NOBODY knows who's going to get injured prior to the keeper deadline. As it is, offseason trades (including draft picks) are allowed, so it boggles the mind how the argument even got this far. Oh, and just so you know, you're being a holier-than-thou do-no-wrong type, and it's taken you ten posts to give the forum readers what they asked for. You wrongly assume we're all a bunch of self-centered egotists, when the majority of respondents probably commish or co-commish leagues. Actually, Servo, I'm just trying to string everyone along to get this topic up to 10 pages. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rye & Leaf 0 Posted August 19, 2006 a keeper league is a keeper league....no start overs.....wtf do you think you are doing?...democracy, right mob rules... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NAn 39 Posted August 19, 2006 Where to start: Agreed that there is no need for a redraft...I'm at the point where I even question if those are the actual rules being debated. You want to paint the owner as a jerk, when it's your league fault for taking what could have been a simple solution of validating/invalidating a trade into a whole redraft. You and your 'upstanding, salt of the earth' buddies as a whole did this...not him. Whining and taking my ball and going home...selfish? Well, let's say my ball is a soccer ball. And let's say I've sucked so I've worked hard on my dribbling and kicking. And let's say I meet my 'totally unselfish, take one for the team, salt of the earth, give their last meal to a pauper' friends for a soccer match. And let's say, since we're all friends, we divvy up teams and put a little friendly wager on the line. And let's say we start to play and I'm told: 'No, no...we're not playing that way anymore...those are the old rules. We don't have to use our feet anymore...we can use our hands to throw the ball around if we want.' I may be inclined to 'take my ball home' too. Get off your own high horse and that of your 'upstanding buddies'..these are quotes from your own posts: RE: US DEGENERATES: I guess I take for granted that most people (as evidenced by the posts on this topic) simply care more about their teams than the overall health of their league. That's fine. That's human nature. I'm not putting anyone down for feeling this way. RE: LEAGUEMATES: So, the vote is split 50/50 on this issue. We were at a standstill. And, not to mention, we're asking owners involved in the vote to vote on what they thought the rules are. So the vote was 50/50...so which half are the 'upstanding guys' that put the league first and which half are the selfish bastards like ourselves? I would think if they were ALL about league first, after the vote was 50/50, other guys would say 'aw forget it, let's just all agree. It's about the league first after all' before having to go to any drastic solutions. Again, below is your quote: 'It's not fair to ask owners to vote for/against their own interests.' Umm...that is essentially the basis for your whole 'democratic, utopian kumbayah league...you guys vote on everything! You've put yourself in a very safe place Shakespeare (what a fitting name, with the 'drama' you started and all in your league and on the board): Yes, we vote on problems...but I always take the high road and do what's best for the league. Others who actually have the audicity to want to defend/stake a claim to a team they built...well their just selfish.' So is it hard to see where your going with your nose up like that? Last quote: 'We've learned our lesson.' As is evident from comments in this thread, that I've heard nothing of changing the voting process moving forward, and the league's 'solution'...apparently not. Last thing: Who's the more upstanding guy? The guy who has a blow up amongst friends or the guy who airs his 'friend's' dirty laundry on a public site? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ratbastard1 0 Posted August 19, 2006 First of all, I'm kind of proud that this has become such a hot topic. And, though I've spelled out the rules partially, it's clear that everyone wants the real-deal, word for word rules. But before that, I never insulted or attacked anyone (at least, not before being insulted or attacked myself). So, I'm not sure where all this hostility is coming from. Being a member here long enough, I guess it just comes with this site. Some people here are just dicks, I guess... So... without further adeu: Keeper Rules: - Each team may keep up to 2 players from the previous draft. - Free agents/waver-wire pickups may not be kept. - In order to keep a player, a team must give up the draft position 3 places above where that player was drafted. The same will be true of 2nd year keepers and so on until that player can no longer be kept. - If a player is traded, the new team inherits the draft position and keeper status of that player. - Teams are not required to declare their keepers until the Draft. Trades: - The trade deadline is the 11th Sunday of the season. - Trades must be announced no later than 72 hours prior to the respective player(s) next game for the roster change to apply for that game. - Off-season trading is permitted. This includes draft position trading. - Trades do not affect the player(s) original draft position. Keeper status will remain unchanged. 1st off you are a bit of a jerk for taking this long to post this. And you are amazingly condescending towards many here. TDRyan was willing to help you early and you danced like an idiot. 2nd what actually is the problem? Is it: "- In order to keep a player, a team must give up the draft position 3 places above where that player was drafted. The same will be true of 2nd year keepers and so on until that player can no longer be kept."? Specifically: "The same will be true of 2nd year keepers and so on until that player can no longer be kept."? Thats the only problem i see and I also see it as fixable. Simply add the byline: If a keeper is in his second season of being kept he requires the surrender of his draft pick +3+1, 3rd season original pick+3+2 or whatever way you want to word it or whatever picks you want to add. It trully seems that this was the intent but wasnt clarified deep enough. Throwing it all in and redrafting is so over the top its ridiculous. The intent of the rules is obvious. You seem to not want a keeper 2 be able to be kept forever. The vote should have been on how to fix the rule which would only affect a few owners. Your commish should have streamlined the issue and the vote should have happened between each owner and only him. Then he should have made the decision. League votes should be only used to aid the commish who in the long run should have the gonads and integrity to rule the best way for the league and if someone quits so be it. Too much unnessesary talk happened. Which is why i believe in my sig and the way you have acted in this thread is why the last sentence in my sig reminds me of you.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrJ 0 Posted August 19, 2006 I still say this doesn't give us the full picture. What part of that changed last offseason? If those were the rules last season too, then it's focking simple! If you have allowed trades in the past, you allow this one. If you haven't, you don't. You can't tell me that after 6 years of being a keeper league, this is the first time that you have ever had a trade in the offseason. Why is it sooooo hard to get the whole story here? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr Venture 0 Posted August 19, 2006 This topic was no heated it made me get an ID so i could post....I have questions concerning the league...Was the player with LJ/FITZ involved in the dubious trades? If he wasnt, and those trades caused everyone to want to start over- I would be hella pissed! Did the trades happen, and then time went by, and then suddenly the GM that traded find out out they were screwed under this new interpretation? (Im just trying to figur out how this issue could make an entire league want to call "do over!"- And that drug rule nonsense? I question the mental strength of any league that would have that...Shakespear, you say you "refused" to use those drug points...(better than quiting, right?)-but doesnt that mean you are ignoring the (since removed, it seems) rules of your league? Does that speak of integrity? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joefry 0 Posted August 19, 2006 Final Analysis: Shakespear is an A#1 do*chbag. He is sour because the perrenial league doormat finally had some luck, and now he is looking to find ways to keep him down. You should be banned on this site just for your below base opinions as, in my opinion, they are worse than the crudest profanity I could imagine. I would rather drink a full glass of grandma's fermented period blood, combined with a spash of hobo urine and sprinkled with pubes and boogers, than be in your so-called 'democratic league'. Hopefully, after this abomination of a post, there will be nothing left to say on this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Freak Jones 0 Posted August 19, 2006 He should get 1, 2 and 15 if you want to make it fair. The people who had crap for keppers should forfit their picks to accomodate, that would make it 'fair'. Why should someone who mismanaged their team in a keeper be rewaded with a mulligan? Sounds like a third grade Pokemon tournament is more competitive than this league. I agree with Joefry completely here. Obviously this won't be your solution, but come on! Who in their right mind wouldn't be completely hacked off with this if it happened to them. It can be awful hard not to go off when you're being completely ripped off. Honestly it seems like the real deal is 1/2 the owners are using this trading issue as a frickin excuse to redraft because they're jealous of how well he set up his team. Lets recap. This guy never wins. So then last year he makes some great keeper picks and ends up with the opportunity to have this as his top 3 players. 1. LJ 2. Fitz 3. 1st pick in the first round = LT/SA We even offered him the #1 pick Gee! What a load of _ _ _ _! What do you mean you offered him that. So instead of 2 of the top 3 picks he get #1 and #24? So, not only would he only get 1 of the big 3, he probably wouldn't even end up with Fitz either. Talk about rubbing salt in the wound. He's not even the best team in terms of keepers/draft picks. 2 of the big 3 and Fitz + who care what draft picks isn't the best team on paper? Get real. Seriously, be thankful if this guy doesn't go postal on your a$$e$. Cause he really got the shaft in this one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicewolf64 0 Posted August 19, 2006 I've never played in a keeper league before but it seems like the rule is pretty straight forward. If I got a guy in round 10 last year, I have to give up my 9th pick this year to keep him. If I trade him, then the new owner gives up his 6th pick. The next year would require the 3rd pick, then after that he'd be a free agent again because there is no 0 round pick. If a trade was made and the 2 owners did not understand the rule, then the trade is simply nullified because as in contract law, both sides must understand what they are getting. If one side thought one differently, then no contract exists. So how does this get drawn out to screw over the other 10 owners? And I'd love to see the teams of the 6 owners saying that a redraft would be "in the best interests of the league". When bragging rights and money are involved, the only interest most are interested in, is their own. Let the flaming begin............................ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeso 0 Posted August 19, 2006 The guy was right to say he was gonna quit. If you run a keeper league the moves/trades you do during a season and at the draft are all based on keeping players. If you change the rules then you basically screwed the guy. He may have drafted or made trades totally different the year before. You establish rules and live by them. It's okay to tweek rules to make the league more competitive, but noway do you do what your league proposed to do. That's crappy! You need to have a commish with common sense run the league. Sounds like your league has too many chiefs and not enough Indians! Don't get me wrong, it sounds like you have a good league. A good group of friends/guys. But you have to have one commish to run the show or you run into problems like you had. Hope everything turns out okay for you. i totally agree with what he said....shiet if i had to lose LJ and fitz and redraft i would be pissed...btw, why did u need to redraft anyways? its a keeper league.....prob some guy had a crappy keepers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DonS 3,292 Posted August 19, 2006 I would rather drink a full glass of grandma's fermented period blood, combined with a spash of hobo urine and sprinkled with pubes and boogers, than be in your so-called 'democratic league'. Hopefully, after this abomination of a post, there will be nothing left to say on this. Nothing to add that hasn't already been said, but this made me almost spit beer on my monitor! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fizzelps 0 Posted August 19, 2006 Shadow, I've given the problem. Take a look at my previous posts. Most people think the trade should not go through because you have to declare keepers *before* you're allowed to trade them. That's fine. But half the league disagrees with this, which is why we have a 50/50 split. SO... how can we move on? What is the solution when the league is divided on an issue? And don't say the commish decides. That may be how you run your leagues, but we don't do it that way. We vote on every issue. Man, this has been a tough read! I really just wanted to flame you for causing this thread to get so long, but I will hold off. If your league votes on everything, then I would assume a majority is needed to "change a rule" or " veto a trade". So, you don't have that, so the trade would go through if it fits in the framework of the rules as they are written.......which I know people have been begging to see! This is even if the rule, as it was passed by the league, has some unforeseen consequences.....like being able to trade a player before keepers have been declared. People may quit over the whole thing……that happens, even among friends. Just form up another league with as many as you can, and for gods sakes, get the rules straight in advance. *****EDIT***** Ok, you posted the rules in question, yeah you. It seems cut and dry to me. The trade is allowed per the rules. What I said above about majority would still stand. Oh yeah.....quit being an a$$hat! I couldn't resist Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Moz 69 Posted August 19, 2006 I can't believe I wasted 10 minutes reading this garbage ! A. This is indeed Bush league ! and that guy should quit. B. When a League is a keeper league - you can never have a redraft again no matter what becasue it is not gonna be fair. Better off scrapping the league totally and starting over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaveJ 0 Posted August 19, 2006 The rest of the owners should be lined up and de-nutted..... you sound like the friggin UN. The teams have played for 6 years with these rules and your collective decision is to throw everyone back into the pot?? That's insane, I would walk too. If you can't get at least 75% voting in favor of something, then you let it be and the whinny lil panzies can leave or stay. You do NOT disassemble teams in a keeper, especially if its a money league. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steelers2101 7 Posted August 19, 2006 Sorry buddy, but you're wrong. And you still haven't explained why the new rules force you to throw everyone back in the pool because of some trades. It seems that throwing the players back into the pool is completely unnecessary considering trades that came after the fact are what have made the problem with the rules evident. So either, those who relied on making the trades are screwed, or those with the better keepers are screwed. Considering that keepers came before these trades came, the people making the trades should be screwed, you fix the rules, and they can easily mitigate how much they are screwed by making another trade. Those with an advantage based on their keepers can't mitigate how much they are screwed because in a redraft everyone is technically on even ground. My guess is some of you are thinking more about yourselves, and it's pretty low of you to make it seem otherwise ("so lucky to be in a league with guys thinking about the league instead of themselves...blah blah blah"). this is your solution. and of course, the keepers stay put. I agree with Joefry completely here. Obviously this won't be your solution, but come on! Who in their right mind wouldn't be completely hacked off with this if it happened to them. It can be awful hard not to go off when you're being completely ripped off. Honestly it seems like the real deal is 1/2 the owners are using this trading issue as a frickin excuse to redraft because they're jealous of how well he set up his team. Lets recap. This guy never wins. So then last year he makes some great keeper picks and ends up with the opportunity to have this as his top 3 players. 1. LJ 2. Fitz 3. 1st pick in the first round = LT/SA Gee! What a load of _ _ _ _! What do you mean you offered him that. So instead of 2 of the top 3 picks he get #1 and #24? So, not only would he only get 1 of the big 3, he probably wouldn't even end up with Fitz either. Talk about rubbing salt in the wound. 2 of the big 3 and Fitz + who care what draft picks isn't the best team on paper? Get real. Seriously, be thankful if this guy doesn't go postal on your a$$e$. Cause he really got the shaft in this one. You couldn't have put it any better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lobo237 0 Posted August 19, 2006 First I don't understand why you made it like pulling teeth to get the rules in question out of you? You ask about alternatives yet don't provide information so of course it's going to come off badly. You say this is for the good of the league, but then expect everyone to take you word on it unquestioned when you can't show us the justification for such radical changes. Next I ask what is the purpose of having a commish? After all any sane league is going to have their rules and bylaws written down so why do we need a commish? IMO a commish serves a couple of purposes. Firstly the commish organizes everything from setting up draft date, maintaining the website, etc... and just in general keeping things running smoothly. Secondly and MOST IMPORTANT IMO it's the commish's job to interpret the written rules when they come into question. IMO it sounds like your league runs totally by mob rule and of course in the end something like this is bound to happen. A commish who refuses to make a decision serves no purpose. I'm a first time commissioner right now, and overall it's a rewarding experience. My league has IMO a good group of people and nothing major has come up, but we have had some issues. Now I seek advice from my two very capable vice commissioners but in the end my word is law. I say this is how the rule is written and this is how I understand it so that's how we'll play it this year. At the end of the season when we do our rules meeting we can revise or reword it, but until then my ruling is the final word on the situation. Are my rulings going to always be met with unanimous approval? Hell no, but my leaguemates joined because they trust me and have faith that I'll make my decisions with the interest of the entire league and not just my team in mind. This to me is a situation where the commissioner needs to make a unilateral decision on how the rule is interpreted rather than redo the entire league from scratch. In this owners position I would react the same way because it's an unneeded fix that doesn't address the problem in the first place. If your commish can't make a decision then why is he the commissioner? Get someone into the posistion who can decide without needing to check in with every owner in the league. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creepin'Camel-Toe 0 Posted August 19, 2006 Holy Crap I can't believe I read all this in one sitting. You can't have a 100% democratic league. Believe me I tried. If a vote is tied in the House/Senate what happens? Throw the constitution out the window and start over? To answer your question, there can be no ties. The Commish & Co-Commish would discuss the issue and the COMMISH would interpret the rule. Break the tie. Don't have a Co-Commish? Get one. Unfortunately, I think you are being the most selfish in a way. You know the trade would be voted on by the Commish (tie-breaker). You don't like how he would decide, selfish or not. So you decide a re-draft. All because you guys didn't think far enough ahead. The vice-president has the tie-breaker vote in the house/senate. The Commish is your Vice-President. Welcome to Democracy BABY!. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mossome84 0 Posted August 19, 2006 From all the crap that I just got done reading the thing that is the most perplexing is the quote "doing what is best for the league". If screwing over an owner because half of the owners agree with it, how is that "doing what is best for the league". If one team is in an extremely favorable situation by the way the rules are set up and no one else likes it and 90% vote against the owner in the favorable situation than 90% of the league just voted for what is NOT in the best interest of the league. If there are 10 friends and they are all at a party and everyone of them is plastered off their asses is it in the betterment of the group if 9 of them decide to get in a van and drive 100 MPH down the road while swerving in and out of traffic. Thats the type of BETTERMENT that I want to be involved in, NOT. It sounds like this league is in that van heading aimlessly down that road towards certain demise. The point is just because a majority or in this case a split vote goes a certain way doesn't make it right. As unfortunate as it is most people are going to vote for their best interests before they will actually vote for what is best for the league. That is why a competant commish is needed. Sometimes doing what is right is standing up for the minority in certain situations. The majority can be a very powerfull force to deal with. The majority no matter how wrong can make the minority no matter how right make it appear that the majorities interests are the right interests. This kind of sounds like politics to me. I really feel sorry for the screwed over guy in that league. He is being jerked around. If this guy actually went to extreme measures I could see him actually sueing the league for past money that he has put into the league based upon a breech of contract. Usually I am against people that are sue happy but if this guy actually hired a lawyer over this, now that would be the ultimate payback for this CRAP DEAL that he got. Imagine what kind of a benchmark case he would have. The Case of Mr. Disgruntled Vs the Shakespere league. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creepin'Camel-Toe 0 Posted August 19, 2006 Actually, after giving the topic a little more thought I sympathize with your position. 2 years ago our league's TE scoring was screwed up by me and after week one. 1/2 the league wanted it changed. The other half didn't. I asked for help on this board and was told by almost everyone in their own crass way how to handle the situation. I didn't agree with them at first but after thinking about it over a few days I came to find out they were right. I made a commissioner decision and I was unpopular with the league for a few weeks but they got over it. No one quit. I think what no one in your league is saying is they don't trust your current commissioner that far. Maybe you should let him leave and dissolve the league. Allow any who want out to go. Next time choose a new commissioner that you trust with this kind of decision and give him the power to break ties, after the issue is voted on twice, if it makes you feel better. Think of all the heartache it will save... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thurman 0 Posted August 19, 2006 I think that when we reached a 50/50 stalemate, we all started to look at alternatives. It was clear that we weren't going to get a break in the trade issue, so we tried our best to come up with a solution that was, again, **as fair as possible** to everyone. I won't disagree that this was a drastic measure, but aside from the commish (who isn't me, by the way) unilaterally saying 'yea' or 'nay' - what should we have done? We debated this issue for a week and no one was budging. If anyone has a legitimate solution, I'm open to hearing it...This is my point. So next season, when I disagree with a rule or a vote, I just say, "It's my way, or I'm leaving..."? This is the way we resolve all conflicts? I know many of you disagree with me, and that's fine. I'm not interested in being in a league with a bunch of robots. But doesn't threatening to leave and take your ball with you a little, well... childish? A few thoughts on this subject, even though I haven't read through to the end of this thread. The commissioner should take control of this mess and simply TELL people the correct interpretation of the rule. What he says is right. That's his job. Now... if people don't like his ruling, that's when you suggest a rule 'fix', and you all vote on the proposed fix, and the change should go into effect the next year, not this. Since your league is a democracy the majority must win... a 50/50 vote is NOT majority and the new rule suggested does not win, the commissioner's ruling stands, end of subject. If the vote gets passed, you put it into effect next year and problem solved. If the guy still threatens to leave after whichever solution wins, let him. Both sides of this situation are handling it poorly. There, that's how you handle this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TD Ryan2 316 Posted August 19, 2006 So... without further adeu: I stopped reading right there. When Shakespeare spells "adieu" wrong, it's over... completely focking over. and DrJ is correct. You've finally posted your league rules yet 4+ pages later, you still haven't painted a clear picture of what happened with the trade(s) and disagreement. All I really know is the list of rules and the you *may* have gotten Tiki Barber. I don't know what to tell you man. You're pretty sad. There's a bunch of people on this site who were willing to give you an honest opinion and try to help out but you're happier because your thread is "hot" and has so many views. Bouve used to get lots of views/replies. It ain't all it's cracked up to be. Good Luck screwing all your friends though! I still say this doesn't give us the full picture. What part of that changed last offseason? If those were the rules last season too, then it's focking simple! If you have allowed trades in the past, you allow this one. If you haven't, you don't. You can't tell me that after 6 years of being a keeper league, this is the first time that you have ever had a trade in the offseason. Why is it sooooo hard to get the whole story here? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duffman 0 Posted August 19, 2006 So, let me give you some background... The owner in question has 2 keepers: L.J. and Fitz. He also landed the #1 pick in this year's draft. So, I just want to point out up front that he's got a strong team heading into this season. We have a very democratic league. Sure, we have a commish. But we put every rule change, every problem to vote. It's worked great for the past 6 years. This season, we had a major disagreement on the written keeper rules. Half the league saw them one way. Half saw them another. 50/50 split. And what made matters even worse was that voting on these rules in the middle of trading season forced owners to chose between what they thought was best for the league and what was best for their team. Can we say, 'Conflict of interest?' Anyway, a solution was proposed where we all sat down and agreed on new keeper rules. Then, we throw everyone back into the draft pool and redraft. Certainly, the owner in question stood to lose the most. But he wasn't the only one. A lot of owners stood to lose a lot in terms of keepers and extra draft picks. EDIT: We even offered the owner the #1 pick in the draft* We had 1/2 the league vote 'yes' to this solution. And before a few more owners could provide the majority votes, this owner wrote an email to the league threatening to leave if we continued with this idea. In the end, we have a lot of nice guys in our league and even though they agreed with the solution, they backed down out out of friendship. Essentially, they took the high road so that the owner in question wouldn't get so upset. How do you guys feel about this? Is it ever okay for an owner to give the league an ultimatium? Or, do you think his response was appropiate considering his keepers? How would you respond if this happened in your league? You did the right thing, putting things to a vote, no matter how small, keeps a league strong and fresh. Our league does the same thing. We've been growing since our small 8 teamer in '92. Today we have 16 teams with more people wanting to get in. I believe you did the right thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murf74 461 Posted August 19, 2006 a keeper league is a keeper league....no start overs.....wtf do you think you are doing?...democracy, right mob rules... Great post. I mean isn't the entire idea of a keeper league is keeping someone? YOU JUST TURNED YOUR KEEPER LEAGUE INTO A REDRAFT LEAGUE.........and you expect everyone to be cool with it. You as commish should be fired or you should resign because this is corruption at it's highest degree. If I was that guy with LJ, Fitz and the #1, I wouldn't have threatened to quit, I just would have quit and found a real KEEPER league with a trustworthy commish. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marty-mar 0 Posted August 19, 2006 I don't care what the rule change was, YOU DON'T REDRAFT IN A KEEPER LEAGUE. Would the NFL throw every player back "into the pot" and repick teams? I've finished out lots of redraft seasons with shady leagues & commissioners and quietly disappeared for the following season for things much less severe, but this "redraft" idea takes the cake. I just can't think of one reason to make a decision like the one your league supposedly made. Well, essentially you ended your keeper league and started a new one... so I side with anyone who wants to leave. PS: you're a shitty commissioner. mm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray_T 753 Posted August 19, 2006 well, I dont fully know what this is all about but here is a situation that may make you guys think about it. the Year that Priest holmes got hurt, I had a stacked team. We expanded and I knew I couldnt keep everyone. Priest was hurt and at the time looked like his career may be over. I didnt keep him. I kept Tomlinson and McNabb instead. draft day (one hour before the draft) I traded priest holmes for a first and a 2nd round pick and I gave up my 6th and 8th round picks. the league later that day decided that allowing this was not really in the best interest of the league to allow someone to trade a player you werent keeping, but since there was no rule preventing it, we voted and created a rule. but we still allowed the trade to go through. I benefited from it, and had a strong team that year finishing #1 but as luck would have it, I had injuries and lost in the playoffs. the new rule took effect effective the end of the season and read something like this: Once the trade deadline comes, rosters are frozen from trades until the end of the season. At this point ONLY Declared Keepers may be traded. If you choose to make an offseason trade prior to declaring keepers (there is a date where we need to declare them), any player you acquire via trade MUST be used as a keeper. what this means is, if I traded Tomlinson today and our keeper deadline is next week, the player(s) I acquire for him MUST be used as keepers. either way, the trade wasnt vetoed but we learned our lesson and made sure it didnt happen again. if they would have Vetoed the trade, I probably would have grumbled a bit, but I wouldnt have quit or threatened to quit. As for the guy who is threatening to quit. Threats are stupid. either you quit or you dont. but dont hold it over everyones head as a threat. That's why so many are choked about it here. to those who are in the league: if he walks away, you find someone else to play in your league. It's not like we've ever had problems replacing people who quit in some of our other fantasy leagues. there's usually a waiting list of people waiting for a spot to open up so they can join. But remember, if you dont take the right steps when making rule changes, you're gonna have things like this happen. I dont know if the above situation I described helps you guys come to a conclusion or not, but here is some more info for you guys. If there is no parity in the league, you dont need to throw all keepers back in the pool. While it is possible that this may be the only solution if the parity is that horrible, there are other options. 1) reduce the number of keepers that you can keep at the end of this season. If you currently keep 5, drop it to 3 or 2. and have this rule take effect for the next draft (not this one) I would think that everyone has at least 1 top end player worthy of keeping. then the pool of good players that one can rebuild with is larger. our league keeps 3, and for a team ravaged by injuries/retirement it probably takes an average GM 2 years to rebuild unless he really picks up some amazing free agents or drafts well. if it takes longer, he's probably screwing up his drafts or making bad roster moves. To Me, This is acceptable. 2) put in a rule to prevent offseason trades other than keepers. 3) Remember: regardless of what you do for rules, there will never be complete parity in the league, because some people just dont know as much about football as others. Just cuz one team is winning doesnt mean the league needs to be turned upside down. (unless that team exploits a loophole to gain an advantage) 4) Remember also: last place means #1 draft pick overall. if you cant put your team on the right track with a #1 pick overall, you probably dont deserve to be there. Do your homework and draft smart. 5) Veto excessively stupid or unfair trades to prevent this sort of thing in the future. 6) quit whining. this league was presumably created so you guys can have fun, watch some games together over beers and give each other a hard time about their teams. If you're in it to make money you should pay to get in some big online draft with people you dont know or care about. These are supposed to be your buddies. Treat them as Friends. then everyone is happy (I hope) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joefry 0 Posted August 19, 2006 well, I dont fully know what this is all about but here is a situation that may make you guys think about it.the Year that Priest holmes got hurt, I had a stacked team. We expanded and I knew I couldnt keep everyone. Priest was hurt and at the time looked like his career may be over. I didnt keep him. I kept Tomlinson and McNabb instead. draft day (one hour before the draft) I traded priest holmes for a first and a 2nd round pick and I gave up my 6th and 8th round picks. the league later that day decided that allowing this was not really in the best interest of the league to allow someone to trade a player you werent keeping, but since there was no rule preventing it, we voted and created a rule. but we still allowed the trade to go through. I benefited from it, and had a strong team that year finishing #1 but as luck would have it, I had injuries and lost in the playoffs. the new rule took effect effective the end of the season and read something like this: Once the trade deadline comes, rosters are frozen from trades until the end of the season. At this point ONLY Declared Keepers may be traded. If you choose to make an offseason trade prior to declaring keepers (there is a date where we need to declare them), any player you acquire via trade MUST be used as a keeper. what this means is, if I traded Tomlinson today and our keeper deadline is next week, the player(s) I acquire for him MUST be used as keepers. either way, the trade wasnt vetoed but we learned our lesson and made sure it didnt happen again. if they would have Vetoed the trade, I probably would have grumbled a bit, but I wouldnt have quit or threatened to quit. As for the guy who is threatening to quit. Threats are stupid. either you quit or you dont. but dont hold it over everyones head as a threat. That's why so many are choked about it here. to those who are in the league: if he walks away, you find someone else to play in your league. It's not like we've ever had problems replacing people who quit in some of our other fantasy leagues. there's usually a waiting list of people waiting for a spot to open up so they can join. But remember, if you dont take the right steps when making rule changes, you're gonna have things like this happen. I dont know if the above situation I described helps you guys come to a conclusion or not, but here is some more info for you guys. If there is no parity in the league, you dont need to throw all keepers back in the pool. While it is possible that this may be the only solution if the parity is that horrible, there are other options. 1) reduce the number of keepers that you can keep at the end of this season. If you currently keep 5, drop it to 3 or 2. and have this rule take effect for the next draft (not this one) I would think that everyone has at least 1 top end player worthy of keeping. then the pool of good players that one can rebuild with is larger. our league keeps 3, and for a team ravaged by injuries/retirement it probably takes an average GM 2 years to rebuild unless he really picks up some amazing free agents or drafts well. if it takes longer, he's probably screwing up his drafts or making bad roster moves. To Me, This is acceptable. 2) put in a rule to prevent offseason trades other than keepers. 3) Remember: regardless of what you do for rules, there will never be complete parity in the league, because some people just dont know as much about football as others. Just cuz one team is winning doesnt mean the league needs to be turned upside down. (unless that team exploits a loophole to gain an advantage) 4) Remember also: last place means #1 draft pick overall. if you cant put your team on the right track with a #1 pick overall, you probably dont deserve to be there. Do your homework and draft smart. 5) Veto excessively stupid or unfair trades to prevent this sort of thing in the future. 6) quit whining. this league was presumably created so you guys can have fun, watch some games together over beers and give each other a hard time about their teams. If you're in it to make money you should pay to get in some big online draft with people you dont know or care about. These are supposed to be your buddies. Treat them as Friends. then everyone is happy (I hope) I think that in this situation, it is good to make a threat. Obviously, making threats as a matter of course is stupid, but this is an extreme situation. This guy has LT/SA, LJ and Fitz, then will probalby be able to a Harrison/Gates and then take some nice chances on rookies for next year. Anyone who is a serious ffplayer and has put themselves in that situation would be estatic because that, simply, is as good as it gets. If I had that, and sombody tried to screw me out of it, I would use all means necessary including threats to preserve that status. So, for those of you who are chastising this guy, I guess I just don't get it. If they don't give in, then he can quit, but he may as well find out what would happen. After all, those morons decided to try to find out what would happen if they disolved all keepers. IMO, they are starting it off by hitting below the belt, so why play by the rules at that point. As far as setting a bad precedent, lets face it, not many people are going to threaten to quit over a trade being denied, or a rule being tweaked. This is a case of a person's entire body of work being wiped out and requires extreme measures, IMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aggiewildlife 0 Posted August 19, 2006 First, this owner does sound like a whiny biotch. But the league commish needs some balls too. Tell me, what's the purpose of the commish if your league votes on everything? It seems that the first rule should be that when the voting is split, it's up to the commish to decide what to do. And then if owners want out, let em go. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicewolf64 0 Posted August 19, 2006 I think for the good of this league, at mid season, they should do another re-draft to give everyone a chance to win. We had a team dominate last year, and now this year, we all want to kick is butt. Now THAT is good for a league. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Natural Lights 0 Posted August 19, 2006 Seems to me since it was a poorly worded rule regarding trading of players and draft picks, and since your league can not agree to a solution to the dispute that one of two things should be done. #1 The commish should break the tie. #2 Disallow every trade made in the off season, with no trading allowed until the rule is clarified on draft day. This would be fairer to the league members as a whole, and would be more pertinent to the issue that started this whole mess to begin with. I guess I would ask you as a league are you going to start over every single time there is a 50/50 split on a rules decision? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray_T 753 Posted August 19, 2006 I think that in this situation, it is good to make a threat. Obviously, making threats as a matter of course is stupid, but this is an extreme situation. This guy has LT/SA, LJ and Fitz, then will probalby be able to a Harrison/Gates and then take some nice chances on rookies for next year. Anyone who is a serious ffplayer and has put themselves in that situation would be estatic because that, simply, is as good as it gets. If I had that, and sombody tried to screw me out of it, I would use all means necessary including threats to preserve that status. So, for those of you who are chastising this guy, I guess I just don't get it. If they don't give in, then he can quit, but he may as well find out what would happen. After all, those morons decided to try to find out what would happen if they disolved all keepers. IMO, they are starting it off by hitting below the belt, so why play by the rules at that point. As far as setting a bad precedent, lets face it, not many people are going to threaten to quit over a trade being denied, or a rule being tweaked. This is a case of a person's entire body of work being wiped out and requires extreme measures, IMO. Just how many keepers are allowed in your league anyhow? and why would you allow one guy to get so many studs on one team. LJ I could see, cuz he unexpectedly took the job mid season, but LT and SA??? if he has LT, LJ, SA and Fitz as keepers there is no way the parity will be repaired for years. totally redrafting is obviously unfair, but I dont think it's unreasonable to reduce the number of keepers for future years. if this is a draft where you keep 4 or 5, that number is a little bit high. you can lower the keepers by 1 or 2 so that everyone keeps 3. this will keep the whining to a minimum and still preserve the order of the league. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Freak Jones 0 Posted August 19, 2006 Just how many keepers are allowed in your league anyhow? and why would you allow one guy to get so many studs on one team. LJ I could see, cuz he unexpectedly took the job mid season, but LT and SA??? if he has LT, LJ, SA and Fitz as keepers there is no way the parity will be repaired for years. totally redrafting is obviously unfair, but I dont think it's unreasonable to reduce the number of keepers for future years. if this is a draft where you keep 4 or 5, that number is a little bit high. you can lower the keepers by 1 or 2 so that everyone keeps 3. this will keep the whining to a minimum and still preserve the order of the league. Hey Ray T. Instead of having people rehash crap, why don't you just read the information already provided? 2 keepers and the guy had the #1 pick. Which would be? LT or SA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicewolf64 0 Posted August 19, 2006 Why would either LT2 or SA be available? What owner(s) would drop them? If each team keeps 2, then its like starting the draft with 3rd round players available. If any top RB/WR are available in this draft, then the owners arent as smart as advertised (not that I dont already seriously doubt that claim) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Freak Jones 0 Posted August 19, 2006 Why would either LT2 or SA be available? What owner(s) would drop them? If each team keeps 2, then its like starting the draft with 3rd round players available. If any top RB/WR are available in this draft, then the owners arent as smart as advertised (not that I dont already seriously doubt that claim) Dude, read the frickin info. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VivaFletcher 0 Posted August 19, 2006 Specifics aside, there are two rules to which all fantasy players should adhere: 1) It's bad form to threaten to quit if you don't like the way a vote is going. You shouldn't pout and cry to try and get your way. 2) If, at any time (before the start of the season) you don't like the way the league is headed...quit. This is very different from threatening to quit, being a drama queen and stamping your feet. Accept whatever vote occurs, and then exit with dignity. They made their decision, now you make yours. I wouldn't blame the guy with good keepers for being angry. Teams with weaker players are voting away his hard-earned advantage. But it's wrong to threaten to bolt if owners don't vote the way you want. You should simply make your case and decide what to do after the vote. If they start over, find a new league. Easy as that. And nobody should worry about leaving a "long-standing" league. When a keeper league throws all its players back into the pool...the old league is dead. It's an entirely new league and you have every right to choose not to participate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cyeaser 3 Posted August 19, 2006 first of all 2 pages ago I ASKED TO SEE WHO THE KEEPERS EVERY OTHER OWNER HAD TO DROP....GUESS THATS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN....and i am the commish in one of my leagues, i believe the commish shouldnt be the "do all say all" of the league...with certain siutations i know the commish has to be, but on this issue, a vote was already counted and a 50/50 split occured.............thats it half the league believes the decision was WRONG......whatever there reasons for voting no was "thier keepers" whatever it DONT matter....if the commish wanted to veto this shyt, or change the rule, it should not a been 2 weeks before the FOCKING season is about to start...YOUR SOLUTION IS EVERYTHING STAYS THE SAME..IN THE OFFSEASON MAKE THE FOCKING CHANGES....... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicewolf64 0 Posted August 19, 2006 So, let me give you some background... The owner in question has 2 keepers: L.J. and Fitz. He also landed the #1 pick in this year's draft. So, I just want to point out up front that he's got a strong team heading into this season. We have a very democratic league. Sure, we have a commish. But we put every rule change, every problem to vote. It's worked great for the past 6 years. This season, we had a major disagreement on the written keeper rules. Half the league saw them one way. Half saw them another. 50/50 split. And what made matters even worse was that voting on these rules in the middle of trading season forced owners to chose between what they thought was best for the league and what was best for their team. Can we say, 'Conflict of interest?' Anyway, a solution was proposed where we all sat down and agreed on new keeper rules. Then, we throw everyone back into the draft pool and redraft. Certainly, the owner in question stood to lose the most. But he wasn't the only one. A lot of owners stood to lose a lot in terms of keepers and extra draft picks. EDIT: We even offered the owner the #1 pick in the draft* We had 1/2 the league vote 'yes' to this solution. And before a few more owners could provide the majority votes, this owner wrote an email to the league threatening to leave if we continued with this idea. In the end, we have a lot of nice guys in our league and even though they agreed with the solution, they backed down out out of friendship. Essentially, they took the high road so that the owner in question wouldn't get so upset. How do you guys feel about this? Is it ever okay for an owner to give the league an ultimatium? Or, do you think his response was appropiate considering his keepers? How would you respond if this happened in your league? Where in here does it say that either LT2 or SA will be available? If you are going to everytime YOU misread, you are going to end up with a very lumpy head You probably don't want to use anything other than what the original poster says, because a good number of people are making up their own assumptions. And you know what that means..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kb4all 2 Posted August 19, 2006 ...we throw everyone back into the draft pool and redraft. I would bail this league in a heartbeat. That is just plain wrong to throw everyone back into the draft. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites