Detroit Fans

[wiffleball 4,790]

Can you 'splain to me

 

1) What Det's fascination with WR's is? and, more importantly -

 

2) Why so many supposedly great college WR's that Det has picked up just sucked so bad? (System? QB? Player?)

 

3) And - where those receivers (over the past 4-5 years) that did get drafted are now?

[Jarvis Basnight 119]

Can you 'splain to me

 

1) What Det's fascination with WR's is? and, more importantly -

 

2) Why so many supposedly great college WR's that Det has picked up just sucked so bad? (System? QB? Player?)

 

3) And - where those receivers (over the past 4-5 years) that did get drafted are now?

 

 

Not a fan but I live in Michigan and I don't think this joke is old at all.

 

Detroit took a physical freak in Rogers who everyone else wanted at the time. Had character/personal issues and early injury problems. They made a poor decision in taking Mike Williams who very obviously had character/personal issues and they should have stayed away but a lot of teams thought he was BPA at the time.

 

Roy Williams is one of the premier wr's in the NFL.

 

Calvin Johnson is considered a physical freak and a once in a lifetime talent......plus he's one of the highest character guys in this years draft.....plus he's very smart.....plus he's a gym rat.....plus, plus, plus. There isn't a minus about the guy. The Lions did what they were supposed to do with the #2 pick overall. They took a franchise player who's as close to a sure thing as you can get. Very few questions about him.

[RLLD 4,247]

Calvin Johnson was a superb selection, he will be the WR that Rodgers and Mike Williams wish they could have been, and actually play as well as people expect him to, unlike Roy....

[jgcrawfish 232]

IMO, Calvin just made RW better. They have a sick combination of speed/size/physicality on the outside of that field. The only question is can two huge receivers work in a Martz offense. His gameplan is predicated on exact routes and crisp breaks, but these guys are so big, will it work?

[Jarvis Basnight 119]

IMO, Calvin just made RW better. They have a sick combination of speed/size/physicality on the outside of that field. The only question is can two huge receivers work in a Martz offense. His gameplan is predicated on exact routes and crisp breaks, but these guys are so big, will it work?

 

I think Martz system is flawed if he can't fit these 2 wr's into it. Besides, when Martz leaves next year the Lions will still have a fantastic pair of wr's that will fit well into the next system.

[swamp dog 0]

Calvin Johnson was a superb selection, he will be the WR that Rodgers and Mike Williams wish they could have been, and actually play as well as people expect him to, unlike Roy....

 

roy went to the pro bowl last year

 

the only pick criticized AT THE TIME was mike williams. the talking heads loved the rogers pick. gushed about joey. no one said boo about roy (and rightly so). with the exception of mike, it's been revisioinist history where the very same people who were applauding the drafting of guys like rogers and harrington were also the first to line up and laugh at millen once those players busted.

 

if cj works out millen is batting 50/50 on those wr picks...without looking it up, i'd say that's about the average bust rate for wrs taken in high in round 1...the only difference is that instead of these 4 wrs being drafted by 4 different teams, they've all been drafted by one team. the bust rate isn't any higher; it's just concentrated on the one team.

 

the past is the past. you can criticize the past but if you're trying to angle the lions made a bad choice in taking calvin johnson, you are about the only person on planet earth taking such a stance this morning.

 

IMO, Calvin just made RW better. They have a sick combination of speed/size/physicality on the outside of that field. The only question is can two huge receivers work in a Martz offense. His gameplan is predicated on exact routes and crisp breaks, but these guys are so big, will it work?

 

martz wanted cj. he left prank notes all around the lions head quarters addressed to marinelli signed from "calvin johnson" (true story )

 

i can't see martz having a problem with having both calvin johnson and roy williams to work with...just a wild hunch.

[yostevo 0]

Can you 'splain to me

 

1) What Det's fascination with WR's is? and, more importantly -

 

2) Why so many supposedly great college WR's that Det has picked up just sucked so bad? (System? QB? Player?)

 

3) And - where those receivers (over the past 4-5 years) that did get drafted are now?

 

The simplest answer I can give you to all these questions is the fact that Matt Millen became our GM when the Ram's juggernaut offense was going strong. He became enamored with it, tried to copy it, failed miserably because he didn't take character into his drafting thought process.

 

As other posters have mentioned, the guys he drafted were going to go about where we drafted them. CRog was a definite top 10 pick and BMW was either the #1 or #2 receiver on most boards. He rolled the dice and crapped out. Other GMs would have made the same mistakes, it's just more magnified because it's Millen.

 

Now he's gone as far as to get Martz to run his version of the greatest show on turf and it requires a very good trio of receivers. Bottomline. Agree with it or disagree with it, it is what it is. He will sink or swim trying to emulate the success of the Rams.

[SoloAJ 0]

Swamp is right. Everyone was gushing over every pick he made until Mike Williams. And I thought it would turn out to be a good move personally becuase there was no guarantee of Rogers/Williams working out, so it was still a need. Too bad it still didn't work.

 

As someone said, if it still isn't shored up, and is still a need, no reason not to take another 1st round WR. Furrey is good and all, but I think we can all agree that WR is still actually a need for Detroit. They have no depth behind Furrey, might as well draft CJ and make Furrey the depth.

[jdon 28]

Can you 'splain to me

 

1) What Det's fascination with WR's is? and, more importantly -

 

2) Why so many supposedly great college WR's that Det has picked up just sucked so bad? (System? QB? Player?)

 

3) And - where those receivers (over the past 4-5 years) that did get drafted are now?

 

1.) they want to do what noone else has done: get three wideouts in the pro bowl. I think they see indy, and what St. louis was, and think : who can stop us? the problem of couse is that we have no offensive line and insist on building from the outside in. Personally I don't htink the lions philosophy could be more doomed to fail; i believe recievers are the last person to touch the ball and therefore should be the last person purchased... but, like I said the lions are chasing a dream as impossible as the fountain of youth.

 

2.) see one: we fail because its a flawed system and we have no oline.

 

3.) Charles Rogers was a stud, got hurt, and never recovered. it happens.

Roy williams is a stud and played in the pro bowl this year.

Mike williams? what a joke. But he looked like an amazing pick whent hey took him.

CJ? he has all the intangibles and the attitude: dude is a winner

 

 

4.) bonus points: lets look at the other guys taken right next to our wide outs

2003 Andre johnson has beter stats than rogers, but he never hit his expectaions, while dewayne robertson, terrance newman (who we talked about), jonathan sullivan, and bryon leftwhich aren't exactly lighting up th eleague

2004 Williams was the right pick

2005: the most indicting piece of evidence: mike williams fails, ware and merriman are the next two picks. That is embarrassing. Though I must say what have braylon edwards or troy williamson done (both taken before mike williams), or matt jones and mark clayton (taken after mike williams), clayton may be turning the corner but the other three haven't done ######.

 

I'll say it again: the lions believe in, and are chasing, a dream within which they have five awesome recievers who put up 60 pionts a game. Worse yet wea re chasing at all costs, and failing again again and again.

the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Next year roy and CJ will have tremendous stats and the team will have 3 wins. Look out for the mario manningham jokes...

jdon

[Durtee 0]

Rogers was a freak in college and had a few minor issues at the time. But in the end his off the field issues and durability killed him. Roy Williams was a great pick. Some say he drops to many easy passes, but he has all the physical tools needed in a #1. He will be a top 5 WR this year. Mike Williams has a horrible work ethic and turned out to be slower than anyone ever imagined. The thing about the NFL draft is that it's just one big crap shoot. Every team takes the player that has the greatest value and can help their team, sometimes they hit, sometimes they miss. The lions just happen to miss way more than they hit. However, is it possible to get a steal with the 2nd pick in the first rd? If it is then the lions did with CJ2. This guy is about as close to can't miss as you can get. IMO the lions now have the best WR depth in the league. CJ2 and Roy on the outside, Furrey in the slot, McDonald as the 4 and Marcus Robinson and Edell Shepherd. Not to mention speedster Tatum Bell catching passes out of the backfield. It's hard for Lions fans to get excited for obvious reasons and besides CJ2 they really didn't have that great of a draft, but I am a little excited to see how many points this offense can put up this year.

[yostevo 0]

Calvin Johnson was a superb selection, he will be the WR that Rodgers and Mike Williams wish they could have been, and actually play as well as people expect him to, unlike Roy....

 

I'm confused by this statement. Roy made the pro bowl in his third pro season. Can he better? Absolutely, because he can improve his route running and quit relying on his superior athletic abilities in order "win" receptions away from DBs which he has a tendency to do. He needs to get more seperation but to be dogging him a bit after only his third year is a reach.

[swamp dog 0]

1.) they want to do what noone else has done: get three wideouts in the pro bowl. I think they see indy, and what St. louis was, and think : who can stop us? the problem of couse is that we have no offensive line and insist on building from the outside in. Personally I don't htink the lions philosophy could be more doomed to fail; i believe recievers are the last person to touch the ball and therefore should be the last person purchased... but, like I said the lions are chasing a dream as impossible as the fountain of youth.

 

2.) see one: we fail because its a flawed system and we have no oline.

 

3.) Charles Rogers was a stud, got hurt, and never recovered. it happens.

Roy williams is a stud and played in the pro bowl this year.

Mike williams? what a joke. But he looked like an amazing pick whent hey took him.

CJ? he has all the intangibles and the attitude: dude is a winner

4.) bonus points: lets look at the other guys taken right next to our wide outs

2003 Andre johnson has beter stats than rogers, but he never hit his expectaions, while dewayne robertson, terrance newman (who we talked about), jonathan sullivan, and bryon leftwhich aren't exactly lighting up th eleague

2004 Williams was the right pick

2005: the most indicting piece of evidence: mike williams fails, ware and merriman are the next two picks. That is embarrassing. Though I must say what have braylon edwards or troy williamson done (both taken before mike williams), or matt jones and mark clayton (taken after mike williams), clayton may be turning the corner but the other three haven't done ######.

 

I'll say it again: the lions believe in, and are chasing, a dream within which they have five awesome recievers who put up 60 pionts a game. Worse yet wea re chasing at all costs, and failing again again and again.

the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Next year roy and CJ will have tremendous stats and the team will have 3 wins. Look out for the mario manningham jokes...

jdon

 

 

the line can be improved, but it's also incorrect to say the lions haven't been working on that and the lions have "no line" whatsoever. they got foster via trade, scott is entering year 2 (started near the end of last season and did well), they've added a good value pick in ramirez in this year's draft, plus signed several free agents this offseason (mulitato, spelling butchered, and piller most notibly).

 

just because they didn't draft joe thomas doesn't mean they haven't been working on the line.

 

they won't have the best line in the league this year, but it will be solid and much improved.

[wiffleball 4,790]

thanks. really don't keep up with the lions. thanks for the info. Easier to read up on it than live it!

 

- Detroit's got the tools. (Millen's the biggest one) If they fail to produce this year....

[mozzy84 0]

the line can be improved, but it's also incorrect to say the lions haven't been working on that and the lions have "no line" whatsoever. they got foster via trade, scott is entering year 2 (started near the end of last season and did well), they've added a good value pick in ramirez in this year's draft, plus signed several free agents this offseason (mulitato, spelling butchered, and piller most notibly).

 

just because they didn't draft joe thomas doesn't mean they haven't been working on the line.

 

they won't have the best line in the league this year, but it will be solid and much improved.

Not buying it over here unless solid means very average or not on an oakland level of oline.

 

I honestly thought for sure they were going to trade CJ, hearing some of the crazy offers that were being thrown around had me worried they might actually improve there overall team with that pick, not just the offense/wide out core.

[Jarvis Basnight 119]

Not buying it over here unless solid means very average or not on an oakland level of oline.

 

I honestly thought for sure they were going to trade CJ, hearing some of the crazy offers that were being thrown around had me worried they might actually improve there overall team with that pick, not just the offense/wide out core.

 

Honestly, as a Packer fan, the Lions scare me more getting Calvin Johnson than they would have with very good talent they would have gotten in with the 2 2nd rounders and even a 1st rounder next year, or whatever else they were being offered. Johnson could be a beast THIS year and you know the Lions passing game alone is a threat to your defense in Minnesota. No one can run against the Vikings defense but you can pass against them.

 

Who would they have projected to add that would have made them more of a threat? Sure, their defense is still an absolute joke but they're going to be trying to outscore opponents this year and Martz will be whipping it up to Calvin and Roy all day.

[santa*69 0]

This is the problem with sucking year after year. You pick at the top and when it gets right down to it this is hit and miss.

 

I never liked Rogers but hard to questions the other picks.

 

They need a change of attitude. The right guy can do it and do it fast. They have a lot of talent in skill positions.

 

I just think of the Saints last year. One guy Payton that organization changed overnight. One solid draft and Brees made the difference.

 

 

That said I think Millen has to go. Too much baggage tot he past.

[swamp dog 0]

Honestly, as a Packer fan, the Lions scare me more getting Calvin Johnson than they would have with very good talent they would have gotten in with the 2 2nd rounders and even a 1st rounder next year, or whatever else they were being offered. Johnson could be a beast THIS year and you know the Lions passing game alone is a threat to your defense in Minnesota. No one can run against the Vikings defense but you can pass against them.

 

Who would they have projected to add that would have made them more of a threat? Sure, their defense is still an absolute joke but they're going to be trying to outscore opponents this year and Martz will be whipping it up to Calvin and Roy all day.

 

that's what turned my thinking on the trade-down scenario: i envisioned the lions getting all these picks and filling holes with decent players...but having them have to watch calvin every sunday on the highlight reel and every february in hawaii. not good.

 

the det media today quotes millen as saying the trade-down ideas were never really that serious and that the lions were pretty much committed to taking calvin and hanging onto him after his visit to detroit a couple of weeks ago.

 

but at message boards of the nfcn teams, i'd put it at about 80 percent of the vike, packer, and bear fans mocking the pick and ridiculing it...only about 20 percent are honest enough to go show any concern about it. pretty funny.

[Belushi 9]

As much as everyone critizices Millen, I think he made the right pick with Calvin if he couldn't get a decent deal for the #2 pick. Past draft picks should have no bearing on this pick. CJ looks like a future stud.

 

But if he passed on a fair deal for multiple picks, then I'd say it was a bad pick. I don't know what teams were offering, but Detroit has allot more holes than one WR is going to fill.

 

They'll score allot of points, but mostly in the 4th quarter I'd imagine as they're trying to come from behind. I'm not sure Kitna can take another season of getting hit all the time. Look what it did to Carr.

 

It's still going to be many years before Detroit is contending for the division. If KJ doesn't come back, they've got no running game, an average (at best) O-line, and a porous D. Lucky for them the Vikings will still suck, and the Packers still look like an 8-8 team.

[Jarvis Basnight 119]

that's what turned my thinking on the trade-down scenario: i envisioned the lions getting all these picks and filling holes with decent players...but having them have to watch calvin every sunday on the highlight reel and every february in hawaii. not good.

 

the det media today quotes millen as saying the trade-down ideas were never really that serious and that the lions were pretty much committed to taking calvin and hanging onto him after his visit to detroit a couple of weeks ago.

 

but at message boards of the nfcn teams, i'd put it at about 80 percent of the vike, packer, and bear fans mocking the pick and ridiculing it...only about 20 percent are honest enough to go show any concern about it. pretty funny.

 

They got that pick right but I'm sorry, I do not agree with the trade down for Stanton while letting Posluzny go to the Bills. Horrible call. Stanton is not that good and I don't see his upside over even Orlovsky. Posluzny would have been a great addition to a defense that, if nothing else, could use some toughness and grit. Not to mention they could have gotten Edwards in the 3rd round if they'd wanted a qb.

 

just me opining.

[Belushi 9]

They got that pick right but I'm sorry, I do not agree with the trade down for Stanton while letting Posluzny go to the Bills. Horrible call. Stanton is not that good and I don't see his upside over even Orlovsky. Posluzny would have been a great addition to a defense that, if nothing else, could use some toughness and grit. Not to mention they could have gotten Edwards in the 3rd round if they'd wanted a qb.

 

just me opining.

 

You're defence sucks and you spend a high pick on a backup QB that is generally regarded to not have allot of upside. Poor choice. Seems like Martz was in on that one. Didn't he draft Smoker a few years back too?

[swamp dog 0]

You're defence sucks and you spend a high pick on a backup QB that is generally regarded to not have allot of upside. Poor choice. Seems like Martz was in on that one. Didn't he draft Smoker a few years back too?

 

hmm...gosslein and foxsports say stanton has lots of upside depends on who you talk to.

 

it's not like the lions ignored defense: wr, qb, de, s/cb, cb, ol, lb, cb. they got the guys they wanted (trading up 3 times into the second round). i count 5 picks made on defense.

 

jesus, they end up with 3 picks in round two and take defense 2 of the 3 and people biatch because they didn't spend all 3 picks on defense. and they would have biatched had they not drafted a qb because "kitna's ancient and they're grooming no one behind him" right?

 

they had 5 picks in the first three rounds. cj was a slam dunk, so let's look at the other FOUR PICKS: THREE DEFENSE, ONE OFFENSE

 

(but you in particular, i understand how you would say that ).

[mozzy84 0]

Honestly, as a Packer fan, the Lions scare me more getting Calvin Johnson than they would have with very good talent they would have gotten in with the 2 2nd rounders and even a 1st rounder next year, or whatever else they were being offered. Johnson could be a beast THIS year and you know the Lions passing game alone is a threat to your defense in Minnesota. No one can run against the Vikings defense but you can pass against them.

 

Who would they have projected to add that would have made them more of a threat? Sure, their defense is still an absolute joke but they're going to be trying to outscore opponents this year and Martz will be whipping it up to Calvin and Roy all day.

the lions could pass on the vikes d anyways probably, I have seen swamp post "we had two 1000 yard guys last year" all the time, I just don't see that much higher of a ceiling at the moment. I like CJ I just don't get what the lions are trying to do as a franchise. getting 3-4 extra first day picks and a #1 next year like some people were reporting could have been huge for them long term imo. But the 1 sure thing maybe is better with millen in charge.

[jdon 28]

hmm...gosslein and foxsports say stanton has lots of upside depends on who you talk to.

 

it's not like the lions ignored defense: wr, qb, de, s/cb, cb, ol, lb, cb. they got the guys they wanted (trading up 3 times into the second round). i count 5 picks made on defense.

 

jesus, they end up with 3 picks in round two and take defense 2 of the 3 and people biatch because they didn't spend all 3 picks on defense. and they would have biatched had they not drafted a qb because "kitna's ancient and they're grooming no one behind him" right?

 

they had 5 picks in the first three rounds. cj was a slam dunk, so let's look at the other FOUR PICKS: THREE DEFENSE, ONE OFFENSE

 

(but you in particular, i understand how you would say that ).

 

seriously, those two second round picks were jokes: a DE that just started playing two years ago and another safety. Two positions we already had addressed. What we need is a MLB and some corners, we passed on the Penn state guy for a backup quarterback.

 

Bottom line: we picked 4 picks in the top60, and only one of them CJ will start next year. We are going to run it in reverse next year. 0-16

 

and to address your point on the line getting better, come on, they suck. We lead the league in sacks, we can't run, and we got a value pick in the 4th round? amazing.

 

jdon

 

 

I'm not trying to be a pessimist but that draft did nothing to help us next year. nothing.

[Belushi 9]

hmm...gosslein and foxsports say stanton has lots of upside depends on who you talk to.

 

it's not like the lions ignored defense: wr, qb, de, s/cb, cb, ol, lb, cb. they got the guys they wanted (trading up 3 times into the second round). i count 5 picks made on defense.

 

jesus, they end up with 3 picks in round two and take defense 2 of the 3 and people biatch because they didn't spend all 3 picks on defense. and they would have biatched had they not drafted a qb because "kitna's ancient and they're grooming no one behind him" right?

 

they had 5 picks in the first three rounds. cj was a slam dunk, so let's look at the other FOUR PICKS: THREE DEFENSE, ONE OFFENSE

 

(but you in particular, i understand how you would say that ).

 

Think you missed the point. I was just pointing out that the Stanton pick that high didn't make allot of sense. Sure they picked D later, but they could have gotten a better player on D in that spot rather than taking a luxury pick on a backup QB that allot of scouts don't think will turn into a starter. There were allot of other QB's who were ranked similar or better that got taken later that the Lioins could have had instead. Stanton might be better than those guys, but they had more important holes to use in that spot.

 

And before you start dumping on someone, you might want to read all of my posts in this thread where I say that Millen did a good job taking CJ in that spot. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're out to get you. Take it easy.

[swamp dog 0]

seriously, those two second round picks were jokes: a DE that just started playing two years ago and another safety. Two positions we already had addressed. What we need is a MLB and some corners, we passed on the Penn state guy for a backup quarterback.

 

Bottom line: we picked 4 picks in the top60, and only one of them CJ will start next year. We are going to run it in reverse next year. 0-16

 

and to address your point on the line getting better, come on, they suck. We lead the league in sacks, we can't run, and we got a value pick in the 4th round? amazing.

 

jdon

I'm not trying to be a pessimist but that draft did nothing to help us next year. nothing.

 

yeah, they should have just picked up a $4.99 draft guide at the grocery store and went for name recognition across the board. that probably would have made a lot of people here happy.

 

sounds like you've got it figured out. at least you'll know enough in advance not to waste your time watching them this year

[Jarvis Basnight 119]

hmm...gosslein and foxsports say stanton has lots of upside depends on who you talk to.

 

Have you watched him much b/c I've watched him a lot. He's had flashes that make him look decent but overall I don't see much success for him in the NFL based on what I've seen. I could be wrong but I thought it was too high for a dime a dozen QB when they could have gotten a LB that may be special. Posluzsny is a football player, and Detroit could use more football players, especially on the defensive side.

 

It's too early to say whether they made the wrong pick or not with Stanton.....I'm just calling em like I see em from how much football I've seen Stanton play.

[swamp dog 0]

Think you missed the point. I was just pointing out that the Stanton pick that high didn't make allot of sense. Sure they picked D later, but they could have gotten a better player on D in that spot rather than taking a luxury pick on a backup QB that allot of scouts don't think will turn into a starter. There were allot of other QB's who were ranked similar or better that got taken later that the Lioins could have had instead. Stanton might be better than those guys, but they had more important holes to use in that spot.

 

And before you start dumping on someone, you might want to read all of my posts in this thread where I say that Millen did a good job taking CJ in that spot. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're out to get you. Take it easy.

 

from fftoolbox.com (and scott wright and others more legit say essentially the same thing):

 

"This guy (stanton) has a ton of potential. He has a good chance to make a much bigger impact in the NFL than he did at the college level. Granted, Stanton was by no means a disappointment at Michigan State, but the Spartans consistently underachieved the past few seasons. Stanton has adequate size and a good arm, but his greatest asset is his mobility and escape ability. Not only can he avoid the rush with his feet, but Stanton's pinpoint accuracy does not fail him even when he's on the run. He possesses all the essential intangibles, too, as he almost always makes good decisions with the football and is a natural-born leader."

 

 

now: i have no idea how he'll turn out. but here's the kicker: neither do you. the double kicker: he went right where he was slotted to go in the draft. there certainly are conflicting scouting reports about him. but that's the point: none of us know squat on how this is all going to turn out. that's why this year i haven't commented negatively on any overall draft of any team. we don't know the future. we know about 50 names or so and gravitate to those on draft day and grade drafts based on name recognition. as soon as well all can admit that, the better off we'll be. i guarantee that if the lions did not draft a qb in day 1 of the draft people would be howling about kitna being ancient and the lions not developing any qbs

 

so let's say the lions don't trade down in the 2nd and instead trade polusknsnerzzni89y (or however you spell his name). okay. we all recognize the name so we love the pick next pick: 3rd round. take a qb there? okay: cj, polz, qb on the board. next stop: 4th round.

 

don't take a qb with pick 3? okay: cj, polz, cb/lb on board. through 3 rounds.

 

instead the lions end up with cj, stanton, s/cb, de through 3 rounds.

[jdon 28]

yeah, they should have just picked up a $4.99 draft guide at the grocery store and went for name recognition across the board. that probably would have made a lot of people here happy.

 

sounds like you've got it figured out. at least you'll know enough in advance not to waste your time watching them this year

 

 

You are missing my main point: we have done nothing to address our weakest positions, namely CB, MLB, and OL. We drafted a QB who won't play next year, a WR who will help and could play well (fine), a DE who needs time to adjust, and a safety who won't start next year. Plain and simple we did nothing to help us win in 07 outside of CJ who comes to a spot where we already had two 1000 yard recievers last year.

 

The are going to lose a lot of games next year. Good luck contending that statement; you'll have history, logic, and reason against your blind faith.

 

again, I am not trying to be a pessimist it just is what it is. for example: I like stanton, I think he'll do fine in a couple years, but I would rather have a linebacker, or when we traded up with the third we gained I would rather take someone other than a DE when we just signed redding last year, white this year, and have good tackles.

 

And we will regret not taking joe thomas; great left tackles are drafted, they aren't traded for, they aren't picked up in free agency, they are drafted. Backus is not it.

 

for now we can agree to disagree but know this I am saying right now that we will be lucky to win 4 games next year. (I don't even want to get into our schedule).

jdon

[swamp dog 0]

You are missing my main point: we have done nothing to address our weakest positions, namely CB, MLB, and OL. We drafted a QB who won't play next year, a WR who will help and could play well (fine), a DE who needs time to adjust, and a safety who won't start next year. Plain and simple we did nothing to help us win in 07 outside of CJ who comes to a spot where we already had two 1000 yard recievers last year.

 

The are going to lose a lot of games next year. Good luck contending that statement; you'll have history, logic, and reason against your blind faith.

 

again, I am not trying to be a pessimist it just is what it is. for example: I like stanton, I think he'll do fine in a couple years, but I would rather have a linebacker, or when we traded up with the third we gained I would rather take someone other than a DE when we just signed redding last year, white this year, and have good tackles.

 

And we will regret not taking joe thomas; great left tackles are drafted, they aren't traded for, they aren't picked up in free agency, they are drafted. Backus is not it.

 

for now we can agree to disagree but know this I am saying right now that we will be lucky to win 4 games next year. (I don't even want to get into our schedule).

jdon

 

 

they had more holes than draft picks. we all knew that (or should have known that) going in. as for cb, they did sign fisher and drafted alexander and davis on day 1. not saying that's an instant cure but it's a tad better than "doing nothing" you claim they've done with the cb position.

 

i guess i'm trying to figure out the angst...did you think they were going to contend this year? i didn't. still don't. i guess that's why i don't have as much of a problem with the picks (like stanton) who won't help this year. if you can spot me where i've said they'll contend this year, go for it. regardless of what happened in the draft, i had them probably 3-4 in the division somewhere. still do.

 

this is only year 2. marinelli is purging the roster and it's still not there yet. this draft was never going to be a miracle fix for THIS year--even if they had drafted a linebacker instead of stanton in round 2

 

regret taking cj over joe thomas? never. there surely would have been regret had the lions taken thomas instead of calvin. you never ever never draft need over a once-every-ten-years talent at the top of the draft. never.

 

a lot of the talking heads are giving the lions draft grades in the A-B range...which doesn't mean squat right now, today, but at least it's worth pointing out

[Flea 0]

Think you missed the point. I was just pointing out that the Stanton pick that high didn't make allot of sense. Sure they picked D later, but they could have gotten a better player on D in that spot rather than taking a luxury pick on a backup QB that allot of scouts don't think will turn into a starter. There were allot of other QB's who were ranked similar or better that got taken later that the Lioins could have had instead. Stanton might be better than those guys, but they had more important holes to use in that spot.

 

And before you start dumping on someone, you might want to read all of my posts in this thread where I say that Millen did a good job taking CJ in that spot. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're out to get you. Take it easy.

 

The point your missing though, is they got a 3rd rd pick to move down 10 spots before they took Stanton. Sure the LB would have been nice, but maybe Marinelli didn't think he was a good fit for what he wants to do. Either that or he threw Martz a bone and said here you go, now leave me to my job of fixing this Def. Either way, they don't end up with 3 second rd picks without trading down and passing on the Penn LB. I'm not sure how any of these players will turn out, but they got the best player in the draft and still ended up with 3 second rd picks which was a job well done. The players they drafted all have one thing in common, they are all hard working, good character players which is better then what we had before the house cleaning started. Will these guys end up starting some day, who knows, but they did address the defense and until you see what Marinelli does to coach these guys up I think its a little unfair to judge whether taking Stanton ruined their draft or not.

[swamp dog 0]

The point your missing though, is they got a 3rd rd pick to move down 10 spots before they took Stanton. Sure the LB would have been nice, but maybe Marinelli didn't think he was a good fit for what he wants to do. Either that or he threw Martz a bone and said here you go, now leave me to my job of fixing this Def. Either way, they don't end up with 3 second rd picks without trading down and passing on the Penn LB. I'm not sure how any of these players will turn out, but they got the best player in the draft and still ended up with 3 second rd picks which was a job well done. The players they drafted all have one thing in common, they are all hard working, good character players which is better then what we had before the house cleaning started. Will these guys end up starting some day, who knows, but they did address the defense and until you see what Marinelli does to coach these guys up I think its a little unfair to judge whether taking Stanton ruined their draft or not.

 

martz was at edward's pro day and worked him out. martz was at stanton's pro day and worked him out. martz and the lions were linked to stanton after that pretty consistently. i've seen the pros and cons written about stanton...at the end of the day martz likes him so let's see what martz can do with him. the scuttlebutt is the lions and martz think stanton's mechanical issues are easily fixable--but that the intangibles are the intangibles: either you have them or you don't. they seem to think stanton has it.

 

don't know. but let's have martz have at him and see what happens.

[Flea 0]

martz was at edward's pro day and worked him out. martz was at stanton's pro day and worked him out. martz and the lions were linked to stanton after that pretty consistently. i've seen the pros and cons written about stanton...at the end of the day martz likes him so let's see what martz can do with him. the scuttlebutt is the lions and martz think stanton's mechanical issues are easily fixable--but that the intangibles are the intangibles: either you have them or you don't. they seem to think stanton has it.

 

don't know. but let's have martz have at him and see what happens.

 

I think it was a good pick myself and I was actually agreeing with you, jdon's quote didn't paste in my post I guess. I was commenting on his post where he said you missed the point.

[jdon 28]

remember this when you are looking to the future swamp: Martz wants to look good so he can move on to be a coach again. You think he gives a ###### about wins and losses? He wants to score points, at all cost. Our first two picks benefited Mike Martz more than anyone else in that ###### organization and it is he who will benefit from the 42-38 losses all next year.

 

Careful who you put your faith in my friend, I respect your oppinion on contributions around here but our team is a farce right now with Millen acting as lead clown in the three ring circus of Marinelli men and Martz acrobatics. I am angry and I will remain angry until we stop acting like a third rate sideshow and start making the moves to become a winning team: look at SF, NO, even arizona the last couple years, they were right where we were and have made major headway in what is a very weak NFC.

 

jdon

[swamp dog 0]

remember this when you are looking to the future swamp: Martz wants to look good so he can move on to be a coach again. You think he gives a ###### about wins and losses? He wants to score points, at all cost. Our first two picks benefited Mike Martz more than anyone else in that ###### organization and it is he who will benefit from the 42-38 losses all next year.

 

Careful who you put your faith in my friend, I respect your oppinion on contributions around here but our team is a farce right now with Millen acting as lead clown in the three ring circus of Marinelli men and Martz acrobatics. I am angry and I will remain angry until we stop acting like a third rate sideshow and start making the moves to become a winning team: look at SF, NO, even arizona the last couple years, they were right where we were and have made major headway in what is a very weak NFC.

 

jdon

 

martz won't get serious consideration as a hc unless the lions start winning. martz made a 100-catch/1000-yard wr out of mike furrey last year and didn't hardly get a nibble in the hc circles.

 

it's already established he's an offensive guru. the lions piling up points this year won't increase his hc stock. winning will do that.

 

not saying the lions will win, just refuting your claim that martz doesn't care, or have a stake, in the lions win-loss column.

 

and if martz does like stanton, i'm not sure how that's a bad thing? the lions needed to draft a qb to develop--a desperate long-term need. therefore i think them using a 2 on a qb wasn't a bad move at all. i highly doubt the lions win-loss record was affected this year by them taking stanton instead of a linebacker at that spot. that's the bottomline.

[Jarvis Basnight 119]

martz won't get serious consideration as a hc unless the lions start winning. martz made a 100-catch/1000-yard wr out of mike furrey last year and didn't hardly get a nibble in the hc circles.

 

it's already established he's an offensive guru. the lions piling up points this year won't increase his hc stock. winning will do that.

 

not saying the lions will win, just refuting your claim that martz doesn't care, or have a stake, in the lions win-loss column.

 

and if martz does like stanton, i'm not sure how that's a bad thing? the lions needed to draft a qb to develop--a desperate long-term need. therefore i think them using a 2 on a qb wasn't a bad move at all. i highly doubt the lions win-loss record was affected this year by them taking stanton instead of a linebacker at that spot. that's the bottomline.

 

I firmly believe Martz is gone next year as he will either leave for another HC position or leave for an OC position with a team who's ownership/management cares about winning and is willing to pay him a lot to come in. Isn't his contract up after this year anyway? Someone else will offer him more money and I don't know why Martz would want to stay in that wreck of an organization, in that wreck of a city for any more time than that. He's gone either way so I hope Stanton can learn the West Coast or some other system because it's coming.

[Melissa Stark 1]

his greatest asset is his mobility and escape ability. Not only can he avoid the rush with his feet,

 

 

They definitely need a mobile Qb, I don't see any problem drafting him, heck look at how high the Iggles took Kolb?

 

I like the CJ pick and I don't see any other options they had.

 

If Joe Thomas was the next Orlando Pace, then probably go with him instead, but I don't recall anyone putting him up to that category

[swamp dog 0]

I firmly believe Martz is gone next year as he will either leave for another HC position or leave for an OC position with a team who's ownership/management cares about winning and is willing to pay him a lot to come in. Isn't his contract up after this year anyway? Someone else will offer him more money and I don't know why Martz would want to stay in that wreck of an organization, in that wreck of a city for any more time than that. He's gone either way so I hope Stanton can learn the West Coast or some other system because it's coming.

 

martz can only leave for a hc spot. no sideways moves allowed in the nfl.

 

this is year 2 of a 3-year deal. if he gets offered a hc spot next year, he'll be gone. if not, he won't.