Jimmy 0 Posted August 28, 2007 I would love to see a poll posed to everyone just to see how many would take Cadillac/Kennison over Jacobs/A.Johnson. Would that poll have the same merit as a poll last season for "How many would take Colston over Horn"? For all of you that are saying "it's completely possible that Caddy/Kennison outperform Jacobs/AJ", what percentage would you go on record with? The whole point is that it does NOT matter what WE think. It only matters what the person making the trade thought. You just can NOT protect people from their own stupidity. Especially since the end results could prove you the stupid one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lambert58 71 Posted August 28, 2007 Pompous because I prefer my league to be competitive rather than filled with morons who would make that trade or try to justify it? Again...you keep calling them "my" projections. How about every projection in the known FF world that has AJ way ahead of Kennison? Herman Moore? Really? Ummm...the next 2 years after that Herman put up 106 receptions...then 104...then 82 (in 15 games). After that he was injurred and did not play full seasons and fizzled out. Terrible comparison. Unless you want to say that AJ is going to back it up with a 106 reception 1300 yard and 9 TD year. Never thought someone would own themselves so badly as you just did. You are going to compare to a FB now? Seriously...quit playing FF today if this is your logic. And you have the balls to question someone else bringing up relevant information? hah!!! So lets see, I bring up 4 year averages to compare the two players hoping that will explain why I believe they are close to being equal. You say we can't do that because 4 years is too long and a better snapshot of the trend of one player is the last year. FINE! You ignore my argument that ADP does not mean anything when regarding player performence. I have repeatedly used the Tatum Bell example and you repeatedly ignore it. FINE! I explain that some people value receivers more than others. Some people will jump at Andre Johnson in the 4th round while others like myself have no problem waiting a lot longer to get a player of similar production thus allowing me to become deeper at running back and quarterback. FINE! I point out that the age of the players do not matter. We are not talking about a dynasty or keeper draft so we should only concern ourselves with this year. You ignore that. FINE! Someone else points out that just 2 years ago Eddie Kennison outperformed Andre Johnson and you say those facts are not relevent. FINE! So basically you are saying that we should only compare last year to prove which player is trending up and which player is declining. You want to play by those rules. FINE. In 2006 Andre Johnson finished with 103 receptions, 1147 yards, and 5 touchdowns. Eddie Kennison 53 receptions, 860 yards , and 5 touchdowns. Clearly an advantage for Johnson. But does that show that Johnson is trending upward more than Kennison? Let's break down those numbers. During the 2nd half of last season (8 games) this is the production of each player. Johnson: 38 Receptions, 395 yards, 1 touchdown. (1 yard catch). Kennison: 24 receptions, 438 yards, 3 touchdowns. So who is trending upwards? Johnson only averaged 10.1 ypc. Kennison averaged 16.5. This tells me that Houston needed to get the ball out quickly to ensure that a sack did not take place. I am not sure they have corrected this. Once again, Houston threw for only 14 touchdowns last year. K.C. 18. Houston scored a total of 27, K.C. scored 35. Since we are playing by your rules, can you please tell me how this shows Johnson has leaped into a top 10 receiver. I still have him and Kennison pretty well dead-even. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blaneyfan 0 Posted August 28, 2007 So lets see, I bring up 4 year averages to compare the two players hoping that will explain why I believe they are close to being equal. You say we can't do that because 4 years is too long and a better snapshot of the trend of one player is the last year. FINE! You ignore my argument that ADP does not mean anything when regarding player performence. I have repeatedly used the Tatum Bell example and you repeatedly ignore it. FINE! I explain that some people value receivers more than others. Some people will jump at Andre Johnson in the 4th round while others like myself have no problem waiting a lot longer to get a player of similar production thus allowing me to become deeper at running back and quarterback. FINE! I point out that the age of the players do not matter. We are not talking about a dynasty or keeper draft so we should only concern ourselves with this year. You ignore that. FINE! Someone else points out that just 2 years ago Eddie Kennison outperformed Andre Johnson and you say those facts are not relevent. FINE! So basically you are saying that we should only compare last year to prove which player is trending up and which player is declining. You want to play by those rules. FINE. In 2006 Andre Johnson finished with 103 receptions, 1147 yards, and 5 touchdowns. Eddie Kennison 53 receptions, 860 yards , and 5 touchdowns. Clearly an advantage for Johnson. But does that show that Johnson is trending upward more than Kennison? Let's break down those numbers. During the 2nd half of last season (8 games) this is the production of each player. Johnson: 38 Receptions, 395 yards, 1 touchdown. (1 yard catch). Kennison: 24 receptions, 438 yards, 3 touchdowns. So who is trending upwards? Johnson only averaged 10.1 ypc. Kennison averaged 16.5. This tells me that Houston needed to get the ball out quickly to ensure that a sack did not take place. I am not sure they have corrected this. Once again, Houston threw for only 14 touchdowns last year. K.C. 18. Houston scored a total of 27, K.C. scored 35. Since we are playing by your rules, can you please tell me how this shows Johnson has leaped into a top 10 receiver. I still have him and Kennison pretty well dead-even. but but but but..... lmfao, wait for it! lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pinto 0 Posted August 28, 2007 Perhaps the "expert" people defending the veto saying ban all vetos should realize they have newbish trollish traits. Just saying...If you count the insults, its clear you're here for the fight not for the topic. And yet you popped in to insult me and not here for the topic. Did you read my reply in there? What part of that was incorrect? I also stated in there that I would veto trades of collusion or severely lopsided ones. So, I would agree with vetoing the prior example of LT2 for Kennison since that's lopsided while I wouldn't veto the OP trade as that's not lopsided--merely a bad/dumb trade. It's a subjective gray area and you have to look at it as a case-by-case basis, where if it's questionable, ask questions and if still unsure, give the benefit of the doubt and let it go. If it's obvious lopsided, then kill it. BTW, I linked that in because this is the first of many many many threads we'll see on this forum of "is this trade fair" and I think many of us regulars are sick of them as they're not posted in the Help section and most would not be vetoable. Prime example--Team A is trading Steve Smith to Team B for Cedric Benson. Team A needs RB while Team B needs a WR. Since SS's ADP is higher, I'm going to veto the trade. Those posts make most people here Is that better for discussing the topic? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lambert58 71 Posted August 28, 2007 No, they're based on the picks these managers actually made. This it is roughly the same as if they made a pre-draft deal of a 3rd and 4th round pick for a 6th and 15th round pick. For the 14th time. Once again, some people value wide receivers differently. So I grab Brandon Jacobs and in the next round someone grabs Caddy. I then grab Andre Johnson thinking there will be a run on the next tier of receivers. Someone grabs Kennison a lot later. I now look at the pre-season week 3 games (the one that counts) and I notice that Caddy starts off with a -5 yard run but then breaks off a 11 yard, 8 yard, 7 yard runs. I start looking at the Giants problems and I start believing that Caddy will now outperform Jacobs and I want him. I also believe that running backs are a hell of a lot more valuable than receivers and I realize that Kennison and Johnson will produce about the same. I also know that the Caddy owner had Caddy ranked higher than Jacobs and if Jacobs and Caddy both fell to the 4th round he would have grabbed Caddy over Jacobs so I need to sweeten the deal to ensure he will trade me Caddy. I offer Jacobs who I now believe will do worse than Caddy, and Johnson who I think will perform about the same as Kennison. The guy accepts and I end up with a player who I now project to do better, Caddy, and a player who I think is equal in production, Kennison. I believe I won the trade. The other owner believes he won the trade. So why do you have a problem with it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lambert58 71 Posted August 28, 2007 but but but but..... lmfao, wait for it! lol I'm sure his next argument will include body-mass index and the alignment of the stars...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeffkomlo 19 Posted August 28, 2007 I still have him and Kennison pretty well dead-even. You're the only one According to fantasy football today projections Johnson 80 receptions 1,088 yards 6 TDs - ranked 15 Kennison 48rec 727yds 4TDs - ranked 40 Show me one place (Website,Cheatsheet, mag,) that shows them close. Show me a draft that shows them close. This is my issue - the Rbs are close so I'm not concerned with that- it's trading a 13th round pick for a 4th round pick Draft kennison in the 4th and see what your fellow owners say. Lamebert Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fantasymind 1 Posted August 28, 2007 Sorry you're so judgemental and project so many things onto me. The fact is that each time I used the term for the fallacy presented it was in context with the appropriate post quoted. Simply put, I grew tired very quickly of being called an "idiot" and other insults and personal attacks, and rather than sink to the level of the insulting poster as I may have in the past I chose to take the enlightened approach and point out each occasion it was done. I'd respond to the attacker's point, and they would ignore the response and cast an insult. Sorry if your delecate sensibilities were put off by that style, but I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I choose to wallow in the muck with those who's vocabulary is based around calling people names, I get suspended or banned. If I instead point out what they are doing, I get called pretentious, or someone (like you) assumes I'm posting $5 words just to sound smart. Maybe you struggled in English class - I majored in it in college. Sue me if I have an above average vocabulary I guess. Ironic being put off by someone's use of words on a message board, no? Don't mind a bit, so long as you drop your incessant need to attack me with your presumption and pseudo psychoanalysis. So because you have a pet peeve with an expression, that equates to me being "smart and contrarian" and as in your thinly veiled assertion, smug and deserving of your contempt? Again - I refuse to respond in kind, but I will point out what a raging ass that makes you sound. You know, while we're in the business of analyzing each other. So to answer your question, it's simple: the poster I was addressing at the time kept using projection over and over again to insinuate various things. First I had no business stepping in, and it was terrible of me as commish to do so *only* because of ADP. I corrected that and pointed out that it was not just on ADP, but rather on a combo of the league vote, ADP, and the rankings of several sites. He then responded saying how horrible a commish I was if I were to vote down such a trade based *only* on my judgement and projection. Time and again, despite being told directly otherwise, he continued to assert that I was somehow using a singular basis for veto. TIme and again he was corected and ignored it. Additionally, he asserted that the ONLY reason to veto a deal is for collusion. I happen to find that a very narrow minded approach, and have gone into great detail as to why I believe that and provided examples of other reasons why a deal should be vetoed. That's what I mean by "thinking outside the box". So whether you have some strange aversion to that expression or not, it fits. Thanks for your completely asinine analysis of my posts and my motives - you're completely off base, but you've made so many snap judgements about me that I won't bother correcting you. So, I went to work today, returned this evening and was greeted by this response to my original post (and about two full pages of replies from both sides of this argument)...After reading all of this, I think I have re-affirmed a few things: I tried in my initial post to point out what I found annoying about the manner in which My2cent was arguing, while also pointing out that my issue wasn't with the points he was making, but with how he was making (and responding to) them...The pretense, the smugness, the "It is so obvious I am right and you are wrong" tone that wafted from each of his replies seemed too pungent not to point out. I truly didn't think I was "attacking" him, but, as seen above, he clearly did. In fact, the man who is "above the muck" of personal attacks and insults littered his reply with just that. "Your delicate sensibilities", "Maybe you struggled in English in college, I majored in it <which, by the way, is hilarious, in that he is saying it like being an English major is actually something anyone has the right to be smug about>", "Sue me if I have an above average vocabulary", and, my favorite, "Again I will fail to respond in kind, other than to point out what a raging ass that makes you sound". Hmmm, so you argue constantly within this post that people don't make points and merely attack you personally, and then you respond by telling me that you won't respond to me while responding with attacks? As someone who asserts to look for logic in arguments and posts about the irony of others, I am sure you see the humor in that. This post has taken on a life of its own, not because of the greatness of the philosophical debate (it is a good debate, imo, but not something that would garner 8 pages), but because most of the posters just can't resist chiming to tell you what an arrogant, control freak, doucheass you are-I know I couldn't. You speak about subjective things with terms like "obviously". You use statistics in your arguments like "90% of people on here..." as though they were facts. Know who else used statistics? Hitler. He was kind of a control freak, too. You say things like "Now I will ignore you", respond 3 minutes later to this same poster and say "I will now continue ignoring you". You keep track of how many times you say the same thing and then tell everyone what the new number is when you say it again. You thank all those posters who "haven't attacked you" for a great debate; all the while, each of your replies belittle any opinion which doesn't mimic your own. All very douchey things. Now, feel free to point out that I made no attempt to contribute to the debate, as I won't restate the stance I stated in the second half of my original post while saying, "This is the SECOND time I am saying this". Also, feel free to reply by pointing out that this ad hominem argument is something you are so above while calling me a raging ass. And, while you are ignoring me while replying to what I had to say, feel free to post the little smiley guy who rolls his eyes at the end of your post, as I find that guy to be a real burn. Finally, yell at the sky for the FIFTEENTH time that this trade involved a 3/4 for a 6/15 because that is the only argument that matters, while also realizing that projections, rankings, ADP, and general consensus will have as much bearing on the end of the season statistics as the posts in this topic do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lambert58 71 Posted August 28, 2007 You're the only one According to fantasy football today projections Johnson 80 receptions 1,088 yards 6 TDs - ranked 15 Kennison 48rec 727yds 4TDs - ranked 40 Show me one place (Website,Cheatsheet, mag,) that shows them close. Show me a draft that shows them close. This is my issue - the Rbs are close so I'm not concerned with that- it's trading a 13th round pick for a 4th round pick Draft kennison in the 4th and see what your fellow owners say. Lamebert I would never draft Kennison in the 4th. My point is that I would never draft Johnson in the 4th either. I think you would have to be crazy to draft a player that high who has never produced at a top 10 level. Once again, look at the history of each player. Both have put up very similar numbers over the last 5 years. Both have produced similar touchdown and yardage stats. Why do you believe that Johnson is NOW going to produce at a much higher level than his recent history? I again point out Tatum Bell from 2 years ago. Most mags and websites had him ranked in the top 5. He had never produced at that level before but because of hype people jumped on the band wagon... Understand that I believe at this stage in their careers Andre Johnson has a hell of a lot more talent than Kennison. But due to his team situation, WHICH NO ONE HAS EXPLAINED HOW THEY HAVE IMPROVED, I still do not believe he will be highly productive. Also keep in mind that Projections are nothing more than educated guesses. Everyone has an opinion but some people have the forum to express those opinions. Every year for the last 3 years Andre Johnson has been the projected "break out stud" and every year he has been a middle of the road receiver. Last year Andre Johnson finished 38th among receivers in the Touchdowns per start stat. The person who finished right above him at 37 was Eddie Kennison. Andre Johnson finished 23rd in fantasy points per start. He ranked right behind those stud receivers Terry Glenn, Joe Horn, Mike Furrey, Joey Galloway, Laverneous Coles. .. These aren't projections, these are year end stats that I am reading from Fantasy Football Index. So again I ask, what makes you think he will elevate into a top 10 receiver this year.. ETA: Lamebert??? You, who have a screen name just ripe for manipulation, are going with Lamebert? LMFAO!!!!!!! Thanks, I needed that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest _my_2_cents_ Posted August 28, 2007 So, I went to work today, returned this evening and blah blah blah blah I got that far and rather than go down what was assuredly an insulting and judgemental post like your last one, I instead chose simply to save the 15 mins and ignored the rantings of a judgemental ass who'd rather cast insults and make disparaging comments than debate anything civilly. clearly you have your mind made up about me and did so from the onset (apparently because I used hard werds) so really there's no need for me to read anything you post or care in the slightest about what you say. You are, in short, a non-entity and one which I will happily ignore along with the other two trolls who have done their utmost to badger and bait me while contributing nothing to the discussion at hand as measured against the off-topic crap they've spewed. You're clearly in the same class just with a slightly better vocabulary and far more long winded. But hey - you managed to hold this grudge against a total stranger on the Internet for 2 days, so at least you have that going for ya! Good day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blaneyfan 0 Posted August 28, 2007 Now, feel free to point out that I made no attempt to contribute to the debate, as I won't restate the stance I stated in the second half of my original post while saying, "This is the SECOND time I am saying this". Also, feel free to reply by pointing out that this ad hominem argument is something you are so above while calling me a raging ass. And, while you are ignoring me while replying to what I had to say, feel free to post the little smiley guy who rolls his eyes at the end of your post, as I find that guy to be a real burn. Finally, yell at the sky for the FIFTEENTH time that this trade involved a 3/4 for a 6/15 because that is the only argument that matters, while also realizing that projections, rankings, ADP, and general consensus will have as much bearing on the end of the season statistics as the posts in this topic do. LOL, not bad man, pretty close. lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest _my_2_cents_ Posted August 28, 2007 Understand that I believe at this stage in their careers Andre Johnson has a hell of a lot more talent than Kennison. But due to his team situation, WHICH NO ONE HAS EXPLAINED HOW THEY HAVE IMPROVED, I still do not believe he will be highly productive. Actually I pointed out a few times that Houston has Kubiak coaching them, and added Ahman Green and Matt Schaub. I'd say adding a talented young QB who's been highly thought of and a RB who's had some remarkable seasons (including 2006) is a major improvement. There's also the WR2 who's opening some eyes and Keenen McCardell at WR3 who's no slouch either despite being a bit older. The defense also seems to be coming together. How has "NO ONE HAS EXPLAINED HOW THEY HAVE IMPROVED"? I believe I explained it quite clearly. Would you not say that improving at QB has the potential to make the WR1 better? Or is it that how we rate Schaub doesn't matter because the only pre-season evals that matter are the ones that suit your argument? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fantasymind 1 Posted August 28, 2007 Actually I pointed out a few times that Houston has Kubiak coaching them, and added Ahman Green and Matt Schaub. I'd say adding a talented young QB who's been highly thought of and a RB who's had some remarkable seasons (including 2006) is a major improvement. There's also the WR2 who's opening some eyes and Keenen McCardell at WR3 who's no slouch either despite being a bit older. The defense also seems to be coming together. How has "NO ONE HAS EXPLAINED HOW THEY HAVE IMPROVED"? I believe I explained it quite clearly. Would you not say that improving at QB has the potential to make the WR1 better? Or is it that how we rate Schaub doesn't matter because the only pre-season evals that matter are the ones that suit your argument? Did you just call Ahman's 2006 season remarkable? If 1,059 yards rushing and 6 total tds is remarkable, shouldn't you like Kennison? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lionsjunkie 1 Posted August 28, 2007 i would definitely veto that...both RBs are about the same but the difference between those WRs is ridiculous (we're talking a diamond and cubic zirconia, maybe worse) Absolutely retarded responce..... Sure A.J is better on paper and has more talent but this by no means is trading a Chad Johnson/Steve Smith for a Arnaz Battle TRADES SHOULD NEVER EVER BE VETOED UNLESS IT LOOKS LIKE C.J FOR BATTLE.....and even then I (commish 3 leagues) would be hard pressed to overturn it. Every owner views players differently..... Hopefully this is the very last thread we see devoted to vetoing trades. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lambert58 71 Posted August 28, 2007 Actually I pointed out a few times that Houston has Kubiak coaching them, and added Ahman Green and Matt Schaub. I'd say adding a talented young QB who's been highly thought of and a RB who's had some remarkable seasons (including 2006) is a major improvement. There's also the WR2 who's opening some eyes and Keenen McCardell at WR3 who's no slouch either despite being a bit older. The defense also seems to be coming together. How has "NO ONE HAS EXPLAINED HOW THEY HAVE IMPROVED"? I believe I explained it quite clearly. Would you not say that improving at QB has the potential to make the WR1 better? Or is it that how we rate Schaub doesn't matter because the only pre-season evals that matter are the ones that suit your argument? This is a valid response. I would argue though that Kubiak was the coach last year. Ahman Green is an improvement over Ron Dayne but I am more concerned with improving the offensive line. Matt Schaub needs to prove that he is an improvement. He has only started a few games. He has been sacked as often as Carr. (8 times in only 91 pass attempts. once every 11 throws compared to Carr's once every 9 throws.) Schaub last year in regular and preseason games only threw 64 passes with 4 interceptions and 3 touchdowns. He is going to a new system. He can not be considered an improvement over a player who played in the system last year and worked with Johnson for the previous 4 years until he does the job. There are many factors going against Schaub. Like I said regarding Andre, he needs to prove he belongs. Scott Mitchell was also picked up as a free agent based off of limited playing time. He had a couple of decent years and then was a bust. Now understand that you are giving me a reasonable argument and I am doing the same to you. The only reason I went after Sho Nuff is because he got personal instead of giving valid arguments. You have not done that to me. Keep that in mind when I ask this question. What has Andre Johnson done that makes you believe he will vault into a top 10 receiver? As I pointed out in a previous post, he only finished 38th in touchdowns per start last year. (Kennison was 37th) and he only finished 23rd in fantasy points per start among receivers. I understand that you believe he will improve but I don't believe he will be able to double his touchdown production over his career average. I also don't believe that Kennison will have a dramatic fall off. If you actually looked at the arguments that have been presented, historical evidence, last year trends, concerns about Houston's offense, etc. you could very well conclude that Andre Johnson COULD produce similar stats to Eddie Kennison... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sho Nuff 720 Posted August 28, 2007 So lets see, I bring up 4 year averages to compare the two players hoping that will explain why I believe they are close to being equal. You say we can't do that because 4 years is too long and a better snapshot of the trend of one player is the last year. FINE! Actually, I never made the claim. But look at how each player is trending. One is going up, the other down. You ignore my argument that ADP does not mean anything when regarding player performence. I have repeatedly used the Tatum Bell example and you repeatedly ignore it. FINE! Im not talking about average draft position...Im talking about actual draft position in this freakin league. I explain that some people value receivers more than others. Some people will jump at Andre Johnson in the 4th round while others like myself have no problem waiting a lot longer to get a player of similar production thus allowing me to become deeper at running back and quarterback. FINE! Only problem is Kennison is not of similar production. I point out that the age of the players do not matter. We are not talking about a dynasty or keeper draft so we should only concern ourselves with this year. You ignore that. FINE Ummm...trending means alot with age. One is a younger player showing he is on the rise in his career. The other appears to be on the decline. Yes, age does matter. Why is Shaun Alexander getting a lower ranking to some people? Age is a big part of that. Someone else points out that just 2 years ago Eddie Kennison outperformed Andre Johnson and you say those facts are not relevent. FINE! Ummm...2 years ago being the one time he outperformed him is pretty irrelevant. I took it into consideration, but it was such a small factor it really did not affect a single thing (you all like to talk about the possible changes since this draft, but not the changes in KC since that season by Kennison? Double standard much?) So basically you are saying that we should only compare last year to prove which player is trending up and which player is declining. You want to play by those rules. FINE. Nope...did not say that one single time. Why must you continue to spin what was actually said. I said look at the trending over their careers. Its not just about one year...its not about a 4 year average. Its not that difficult. In 2006 Andre Johnson finished with 103 receptions, 1147 yards, and 5 touchdowns. Eddie Kennison 53 receptions, 860 yards , and 5 touchdowns. Clearly an advantage for Johnson. But does that show that Johnson is trending upward more than Kennison? Let's break down those numbers. During the 2nd half of last season (8 games) this is the production of each player. Johnson: 38 Receptions, 395 yards, 1 touchdown. (1 yard catch). Kennison: 24 receptions, 438 yards, 3 touchdowns. So who is trending upwards? Johnson only averaged 10.1 ypc. Kennison averaged 16.5. This tells me that Houston needed to get the ball out quickly to ensure that a sack did not take place. I am not sure they have corrected this. Yes...considering what they do on a year by year basis...2006 is a trend upwards for Johnson. And Kennison is trending downward. But now you want to cherry pick an 8 game span? Wow you are reaching now. Once again, Houston threw for only 14 touchdowns last year. K.C. 18. Houston scored a total of 27, K.C. scored 35.Since we are playing by your rules, can you please tell me how this shows Johnson has leaped into a top 10 receiver. I still have him and Kennison pretty well dead-even. Im glad you have them dead-even. Can I please be in your league? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sho Nuff 720 Posted August 28, 2007 but but but but..... lmfao, wait for it! lol Wait for what? The fact that he spun what was actually said? The fact that he cherry picks info to try and make a weak point? Does anyone else seriously have Kennison and Andre Johnson about even? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sho Nuff 720 Posted August 28, 2007 Did you just call Ahman's 2006 season remarkable? If 1,059 yards rushing and 6 total tds is remarkable, shouldn't you like Kennison? Given he missed a few games and was running behind a line with 3 rookies playing considerable roles...yes, I would say it was pretty remarkable for Ahman. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sho Nuff 720 Posted August 28, 2007 Now understand that you are giving me a reasonable argument and I am doing the same to you. The only reason I went after Sho Nuff is because he got personal instead of giving valid arguments. You have not done that to me. Keep that in mind when I ask this question. Where did I get so personal? Was this before or after I was called a pompous ass? I gave you valid arguments...you have chosen to spin them or ignore them completely. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lambert58 71 Posted August 28, 2007 Actually, I never made the claim. But look at how each player is trending. One is going up, the other down. Im not talking about average draft position...Im talking about actual draft position in this freakin league. Only problem is Kennison is not of similar production. Amazing. I have shown stat after stat that Kennison has had similar production short-term and long term. You say one player is trending down and one up and I bring up the last 8 games and you say that is not relevent. Ummm...trending means alot with age. One is a younger player showing he is on the rise in his career. The other appears to be on the decline. Yes, age does matter. Why is Shaun Alexander getting a lower ranking to some people? Age is a big part of that. Once again you are defining what we are trending. We can only use a the last 16 games. We can not use the last 24 or 8 games. We have to use the parameters that YOU set. Ummm...2 years ago being the one time he outperformed him is pretty irrelevant. I took it into consideration, but it was such a small factor it really did not affect a single thing (you all like to talk about the possible changes since this draft, but not the changes in KC since that season by Kennison? Double standard much?) The one time?? Really. In 2004 Eddie Kennison had 8 touchdowns, Johnson had 6. So 2 out of the last 3 years Kennison has outperformed Johnson. Nope...did not say that one single time. Why must you continue to spin what was actually said. I said look at the trending over their careers. Its not just about one year...its not about a 4 year average. Its not that difficult. I give you a 4 year average that shows Kennison with more production. Trend favors Kennison. The last two year average is even worse. Andre Johnson: 1835 yards 7 touchdowns. Kennison: 1962 yards, 10 touchdowns. So the trending over 4 years favors Kennison. The trending over 2 years favors Kennison. The trends over the last 8 games favor Kennison.... But you insist that none of these factors matter and the only consideration should be made to the one that favors Johnson. Yes...considering what they do on a year by year basis...2006 is a trend upwards for Johnson. And Kennison is trending downward. But now you want to cherry pick an 8 game span? Wow you are reaching now. Why is it that I am Cherry picking when you won't consider the last 32 games or the last 8 games and insist on only using the last 16 games. Hello Kettle.... Im glad you have them dead-even. Can I please be in your league? Absolutely. I would eat you for lunch if you picked a player in the 4th round when I could pick a player with the same production 8 rounds later. Of course you already said you would not play with an idiot like me. Darn it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RenoZ Posted August 29, 2007 For m2cIAFP - this is what I have learned from him in this post and put into perspective that he and only he can understand: He obstensibly postulates that the humdrum populace shall be prescribed to become ratified to the guild's statute as to the interdiction of said bandy. Furthermore, guild abettor shall adjudicate that which is au courant. Thank you much, kind sir, for straightening me out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest _my_2_cents_ Posted August 29, 2007 Now understand that you are giving me a reasonable argument and I am doing the same to you. The only reason I went after Sho Nuff is because he got personal instead of giving valid arguments. You have not done that to me. Keep that in mind when I ask this question. Fair enough, and believe me when I say I have zero interest in that. I am past pissing contests and have vowed to avoid them at all costs. But you have given me no reason to get personal with you so I take no exception to any of this. I appreciate everyone's opinion and give people the benefit of the doubt until they expose themselves as antagonists or worse. I've actually read quite a few of your contributions here for longer than my membership might indicate and have never had an issue with you that I can remember. On to your question: What has Andre Johnson done that makes you believe he will vault into a top 10 receiver? As I pointed out in a previous post, he only finished 38th in touchdowns per start last year. (Kennison was 37th) and he only finished 23rd in fantasy points per start among receivers. I understand that you believe he will improve but I don't believe he will be able to double his touchdown production over his career average. I also don't believe that Kennison will have a dramatic fall off. If you actually looked at the arguments that have been presented, historical evidence, last year trends, concerns about Houston's offense, etc. you could very well conclude that Andre Johnson COULD produce similar stats to Eddie Kennison... So my reasoning for ranking AJ so highly (4th rounder is more a WR2 ranking, but still...we're comparing to Kennison) - AJ is young. 26 years old, and healthy. This is right off the bat a better risk/reward than a 34 y/o Kennison who I believe is on the downside of a somewhat underrated 11 year career. It typically takes a WR 3 years to develop. AJ disappointed a lot of people in his 3rd year, for various reasons. The team was a cluster, DDavis unexpectedly did not play a down for the Texans as he failed to make a recovery from (I forget what he hurt...knee? Ankle?) - regardless, not having a running game didn't help them. Carr had at that point developed permanent deer-in-the headlights syndrome, and hell - who can blame him. He's been hit so much he should have "EVERLAST" tatooed across his chest. Tey were forced to have Ron Dayne and Wali Lundi carry the load at RB which didn't help Carr much. Thus the upward trend that AJ had shown his 1st 2 seasons soured a lot of people on him with his 3rd, where he was hurt and on a worse team: 2003 - 66/976/4 2004 - 79/1142/6 2005 - expected to blow up, 100/1300/10 seemed well within the realm of his ability. But in his 3rd year he only played 13 games and played hurt for several others resulting in 63/688/2 Then his 4th year, when healthy again, his upward trend continued with a somewhat breakout season of 103/1147/5 I happen to feel he is capable of much more than that. Kennison, while an underrated player, has never had the upside that Johnson has. At 6'3" 222 lbs, Johnson is a specimen in the TO mold. He's fast, athletic, uses his body/frame to shield defenders and puts himself in position to make grabs that DBs have no chance at. If you take out his 3rd year, the trend is what people expected in his 1st 3 seasons - receptions, yards and TDs, though they could have been higher. I blame the offense around him for that one though. I think he's more than capable in an upgraded offense, with a defense that should provide more offensive opportunity and with a better RB in house to prevent teams from teeing off on Schaub (who's 3 step drop and quick release are exactly what a team with that O-Line needs) will help AJ to his best statistical season to date. I think 110 receptions for 1250 yds and 9 TDs is a reasonable projection if AGreen can stay healthy and the HOU defense plays to their expectations this year. And that would put him right in the heart of the top 10 fantasy receivers. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe not - but you asked, so there's my response. i think that I can make an excellent case for why AJ is a 4th rounder. I am not sure anyone can make a case for Kennison realistically having the same stats as AJ at season's end. Something remarkable would have to happen for a 34 y/o WR who's had more than 64 receptions once and topped out at 68, who's had two 1000+ yd seasons in an 11 year career, and who plays behind a worse O-line with a worse QB than he did in his career season to even approach those numbers for 2007. And besides all of that, the point I keep harping on is that the Jacobs/AJ owner could have waited and waited and waited and still grabbed Kennison in the 14th, a full round before he was taken. So even IF someone does value them similarly (which like Sho Nuff I find difficult to believe) then they could have had both and wouldn't need to deal their young upside WR in AJ for him. Appreciate the civility - it seems to be in rare form on here these days. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lambert58 71 Posted August 29, 2007 Where did I get so personal?Was this before or after I was called a pompous ass? I gave you valid arguments...you have chosen to spin them or ignore them completely. It was before you were called a pompous ass. Here is the quote: Id try to find a new owner if the guy presented 4 year averages in trying to tell me that Kennison and AJ are on the same tier or nearly equal. Because I don't want complete idiots in my league. That is why you were called a pompous ass. You were refering to me. I am the one presenting facts. What valid argument have you gave that shows Johnson is better than Kennison. I have gave you stats, averages, concerns about Houstons team, concerns about the quarterback, recent trends, and what have you done to dispel this? Nothing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drunk_Monkey 0 Posted August 29, 2007 Bad trades happen ... let it go -- if you start vetoing trades (even bad ones) owners will be reluctant to propose future trades, and i think thats a bad thing .... its fun to see trades happening around the league, so let it be, as long as there is no collusion, which you stated it doesnt seem to be If you have an owner that does ridiculous trades and doesnt have a clue on what is going on, just dont invite them back next year Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lambert58 71 Posted August 29, 2007 Fair enough, and believe me when I say I have zero interest in that. I am past pissing contests and have vowed to avoid them at all costs. But you have given me no reason to get personal with you so I take no exception to any of this. I appreciate everyone's opinion and give people the benefit of the doubt until they expose themselves as antagonists or worse. I've actually read quite a few of your contributions here for longer than my membership might indicate and have never had an issue with you that I can remember. On to your question: So my reasoning for ranking AJ so highly (4th rounder is more a WR2 ranking, but still...we're comparing to Kennison) - AJ is young. 26 years old, and healthy. This is right off the bat a better risk/reward than a 34 y/o Kennison who I believe is on the downside of a somewhat underrated 11 year career. It typically takes a WR 3 years to develop. AJ disappointed a lot of people in his 3rd year, for various reasons. The team was a cluster, DDavis unexpectedly did not play a down for the Texans as he failed to make a recovery from (I forget what he hurt...knee? Ankle?) - regardless, not having a running game didn't help them. Carr had at that point developed permanent deer-in-the headlights syndrome, and hell - who can blame him. He's been hit so much he should have "EVERLAST" tatooed across his chest. Tey were forced to have Ron Dayne and Wali Lundi carry the load at RB which didn't help Carr much. Thus the upward trend that AJ had shown his 1st 2 seasons soured a lot of people on him with his 3rd, where he was hurt and on a worse team: 2003 - 66/976/4 2004 - 79/1142/6 2005 - expected to blow up, 100/1300/10 seemed well within the realm of his ability. But in his 3rd year he only played 13 games and played hurt for several others resulting in 63/688/2 Then his 4th year, when healthy again, his upward trend continued with a somewhat breakout season of 103/1147/5 I happen to feel he is capable of much more than that. Kennison, while an underrated player, has never had the upside that Johnson has. At 6'3" 222 lbs, Johnson is a specimen in the TO mold. He's fast, athletic, uses his body/frame to shield defenders and puts himself in position to make grabs that DBs have no chance at. If you take out his 3rd year, the trend is what people expected in his 1st 3 seasons - receptions, yards and TDs. I think he's more than capable in an upgraded offense, with a defense that should provide more offensive opportunity and with a better RB in house to prevent teams from teeing off on Schaub (who's 3 step drop and quick release are exactly what a team with that O-Line needs) will help AJ to his best statistical season to date. I think 110 receptions for 1250 yds and 9 TDs is a reasonable projection if AGreen can stay healthy and the HOU defense plays to their expectations this year. And that would put him right in the heart of the top 10 fantasy receivers. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe not - but you asked, so there's my response. i think that I can make an excellent case for why AJ is a 4th rounder. I am not sure anyone can make a case for Kennison realistically having the same stats as AJ at season's end. Something remarkable would have to happen for a 34 y/o WR who's had more than 64 receptions once and topped out at 68, who's had two 1000+ yd seasons in an 11 year career, and who plays behind a worse O-line with a worse QB than he did in his career season to even approach those numbers for 2007. And besides all of that, the point I keep harping on is that the Jacobs/AJ owner could have waited and waited and waited and still grabbed Kennison in the 14th, a full round before he was taken. So even IF someone does value them similarly (which like Sho Nuff I find difficult to believe) then they could have had both and wouldn't need to deal their young upside WR in AJ for him. Appreciate the civility - it seems to be in rare form on here these days. Great response and valid points. The only thing I would argue is age should not be a consideration. Who is to say that 34 is too old for Kennison but not too old for Harrison or Galloway? We are not talking Dynasty or Keeper league. Once again I agree that the quarterback in K.C. is unproven, but he is not more unproven than Schaub. No one knows how a quarterback will react when he becomes "the man". The o-line does not seem to be improved to me and Schaub still has to prove he can handle the position. As I pointed out earlier, I do not believe Kennison is worth a 4th rounder, I just don't believe Johnson is either. I could be wrong, you could be wrong, but I believe both of us made valid points. Your point about AJ/Kennison draft rounds is a valid one. But like my earlier response stated it is very possible that the 1st owner now values Caddy a lot more than Jacobs. I was very impressed by Caddy's last game. He started off with a -5 yard run and then broke loose with gains of 11, 8, and 7. It is possible that the first owner believes that the addition of Caddy over Jacobs will more than make up for the minimal loss of production from Johnson to Kennison. (based off of historical evidence). He realizes that he needs to give to get... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeffkomlo 19 Posted August 29, 2007 I would never draft Kennison in the 4th. My point is that I would never draft Johnson in the 4th either. Last year Andre Johnson finished 38th among receivers in the Touchdowns per start stat. The person who finished right above him at 37 was Eddie Kennison. guess you can manipulate no.s any way you want. From Yahoo 2006 An. Johnson final rank 65th 174 points Kennison Final rank 95th 105 points and this was Johnson's worst year Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lambert58 71 Posted August 29, 2007 guess you can manipulate no.s any way you want.From Yahoo 2006 An. Johnson final rank 65th 174 points Kennison Final rank 95th 105 points and this was Johnson's worst year What do those numbers represent? Is that wide receiver rankings are overall rankings? How do they rank in relation to each other among Receivers?? How is that Johnson's worst year? It sure looks like his all-time best year to me and he still only finished ranked 20 - 30 among receivers... | Rushing | Receiving | +----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+ | Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD | +----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+ | 2003 hou | 16 | 5 -10 -2.0 0 | 66 976 14.8 4 | | 2004 hou | 16 | 4 12 3.0 0 | 79 1142 14.5 6 | | 2005 hou | 13 | 6 10 1.7 0 | 63 688 10.9 2 | | 2006 hou | 16 | 3 14 4.7 0 | 103 1147 11.1 5 | +----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+ | TOTAL | 61 | 18 26 1.4 0 | 311 3953 12.7 17 | +----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+ Last year Johnson was 1st in receptions, 11th in yards, and 35th in touchdowns among receivers. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?s...2&year=2006 How can someone 35th in touchdowns among receivers be considered a top 10 receiver?? Just wondering... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RenoZ Posted August 29, 2007 guess you can manipulate no.s any way you want.From Yahoo 2006 An. Johnson final rank 65th 174 points Kennison Final rank 95th 105 points and this was Johnson's worst year Everytime that I read your posts, I habitually read your signature. After that, it all comes together for me really. It sounds to me like you have made a decision. Make it, stand by it and pray that BJ and AJ blow up!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sho Nuff 720 Posted August 29, 2007 Amazing. I have shown stat after stat that Kennison has had similar production short-term and long term. You say one player is trending down and one up and I bring up the last 8 games and you say that is not relevent. Trending up and down means a year by year look at what the guys are doing. If you do so, you see AJ going up...Kennison going down. Get it yet? I doubt it. You are hopeless. Actually I say 8 games on its own is not relevant...nor is just this trend I am talking about. 8 games is cherry picking. Its like people claiming...if you take away the one long play he did not have such a good day. Its terrible. Once again you are defining what we are trending. We can only use a the last 16 games. We can not use the last 24 or 8 games. We have to use the parameters that YOU set. Defining what is trending is simple...its a year by year thing to see how each WR in question is trending. Its not me setting it...its a pretty standard look at 2 players trending over the last few years. Its not that difficult (except if you are trying to spin the conversation around like you are). The one time?? Really. In 2004 Eddie Kennison had 8 touchdowns, Johnson had 6. So 2 out of the last 3 years Kennison has outperformed Johnson. Seriously...Johnson was in his what? 2nd year? And he was that close. How about yards that year? Receptions? Or do you just want to cherry pick one stat at a time? I give you a 4 year average that shows Kennison with more production. Trend favors Kennison. The last two year average is even worse. Andre Johnson: 1835 yards 7 touchdowns. Kennison: 1962 yards, 10 touchdowns. So the trending over 4 years favors Kennison. The trending over 2 years favors Kennison. The trends over the last 8 games favor Kennison.... But you insist that none of these factors matter and the only consideration should be made to the one that favors Johnson. Because you are taking an average of 4 years...rather than looking what each did year by year. Why is that? Because your argument is crap and you know it. Why is it that I am Cherry picking when you won't consider the last 32 games or the last 8 games and insist on only using the last 16 games. Hello Kettle.... I do consider the last 32 total games...on a year by year basis...not on an idiotic average basis. Trending is looking at how each is progressing each year to determine the best projection. AJ is on his way up...Eddie is clearly on his way down. For some reason you have trouble seeing that. Absolutely. I would eat you for lunch if you picked a player in the 4th round when I could pick a player with the same production 8 rounds later. Of course you already said you would not play with an idiot like me. Darn it. Never stated I would pick him in the 4th...but then again, Kennison will not have the same production either. Your last line...more spin...but nice try. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sho Nuff 720 Posted August 29, 2007 It was before you were called a pompous ass. Here is the quote: Id try to find a new owner if the guy presented 4 year averages in trying to tell me that Kennison and AJ are on the same tier or nearly equal. Because I don't want complete idiots in my league. That is why you were called a pompous ass. You were refering to me. I am the one presenting facts. What valid argument have you gave that shows Johnson is better than Kennison. I have gave you stats, averages, concerns about Houstons team, concerns about the quarterback, recent trends, and what have you done to dispel this? Nothing. Actually, I referred specifically to a hypocthetical that had nothing to do with you. You took it personally...not my fault. I never called you an idiot...yet I was directly called a pompous ass. You have presented some facts (as have I, yet you cannot get that through your skull). What valid argument? You won't believe anything I say anyway. Last year's stats? The trending of his stats from his rookie year through last year? The trending down over the past 4 years for Kennison. But for some reason...you cannot comprehend that simple logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sho Nuff 720 Posted August 29, 2007 Great response and valid points. The only thing I would argue is age should not be a consideration. Who is to say that 34 is too old for Kennison but not too old for Harrison or Galloway? We are not talking Dynasty or Keeper league. That fact that Harrison has not been trending downward as Kennison has? Same with Galloway right now.... But I forgot, you don't understand what trending is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr. Octopus 0 Posted August 29, 2007 That fact that Harrison has not been trending downward as Kennison has?Same with Galloway right now.... But I forgot, you don't understand what trending is. You're too funny and so stubborn, now Kennison is trending downward? I guess because his numbers went down from 2005 to 2006, but it doesn't matter they went up from 2004 to 2005. Hmmmm. Did anything happen in 2006 that may have affected Kennison? Perhaps Trent Green having scrambled eggs for brains, getting to know a new QB, and then having to deal with Green's reinstatement where Trent looked like ass behind center. So you're trend is a one year trend? I can't even respond to you anymore, you don't let facts get in the way of trying to make your case that these two WRs are sooooo far apart that them being the secondary part of a trade (perhaps) is the equivalent to child molestation. Once agin most people like AJ better and they should, but it is very possible for both to fisnish close at season's end just like they have the last couple of years. Even last season the gap wasn't so great. P.S. I own Johnson this year so I am hoping for a HUGE year, however I'm able to assess reality and that everyone doesn't have to think like me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sho Nuff 720 Posted August 29, 2007 You're too funny and so stubborn, now Kennison is trending downward? I guess because his numbers went down from 2005 to 2006, but it doesn't matter they went up from 2004 to 2005. Hmmmm. Did anything happen in 2006 that may have affected Kennison? Perhaps Trent Green having scrambled eggs for brains, getting to know a new QB, and then having to deal with Green's reinstatement where Trent looked like ass behind center. So you're trend is a one year trend? I can't even respond to you anymore, you don't let facts get in the way of trying to make your case that these two WRs are sooooo far apart that them being the secondary part of a trade (perhaps) is the equivalent to child molestation. Once agin most people like AJ better and they should, but it is very possible for both to fisnish close at season's end just like they have the last couple of years. Even last season the gap wasn't so great. P.S. I own Johnson this year so I am hoping for a HUGE year, however I'm able to assess reality and that everyone doesn't have to think like me. Now he is trending downward? Try and catch up...I have been saying that the whole time. Up from 04 to 05? His catches went up by 6, yards by 16...but he lost 3 TDs. Thats not really an increase. (he also missed 2 games in 2004...but I guess we should not let that fact get in the way of a good rant huh?) So no...its not a one year trend. You can't respond to me because you don't even have your facts straight. While its possible, its unlikely. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blaneyfan 0 Posted August 29, 2007 One thing that folks should take out of this thread is that people can look at things differently and interpret the stats, (and manipulate to prove whatever you want), in many different ways. I don't think anyone on this thread is saying they would rather have Kennison over Johnson, but the fella that made the trade may have looked at the stats as have been laid out here and figured they weren't losing much at the WR position and was worth the downgrade to get Caddy, if they have a hardon for him. I'm certainly not saying that I would've made that trade, but I'm not arrogant enough to think that I can and would run someone else's team. This trade could very well blow up in the commishes face if he vetoes it and I would hope he would return the owners money if it works out that his team would have benefited from the trade. I doubt it happens but it could and I think that is the point. As was mentioned it's not like it's a LT for Kennison trade. Good luck commish whatever you do, I hope it works out for ya! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sho Nuff 720 Posted August 29, 2007 One thing that folks should take out of this thread is that people can look at things differently and interpret the stats, (and manipulate to prove whatever you want), in many different ways. I don't think anyone on this thread is saying they would rather have Kennison over Johnson, but the fella that made the trade may have looked at the stats as have been laid out here and figured they weren't losing much at the WR position and was worth the downgrade to get Caddy, if they have a hardon for him. My question with that is, what changed from the time they drafted until the trade that gave him the hardon for Caddy? Because he could have drafted him ahead of Jacobs...but chose not to. I could understand it if he went from Jacobs to an RB drafted ahead of him...but below? It makes it look quite fishy IMO. I'm certainly not saying that I would've made that trade, but I'm arrogant enough to think that I can and would run someone else's team. This trade could very well blow up in the commishes face if he vetoes it and I would hope he would return the owners money if it works out that his team would have benefited from the trade. I doubt it happens but it could and I think that is the point. As was mentioned it's not like it's a LT for Kennison trade. Good luck commish whatever you do, I hope it works out for ya! I don't think anyone just thought a commish should go out and veto the trade on his own. Not without getting a vote from the league (if that is their rule) and/or talking to the people involved in the trade. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kwhiz73 0 Posted August 29, 2007 You're the only one According to fantasy football today projections Johnson 80 receptions 1,088 yards 6 TDs - ranked 15 Kennison 48rec 727yds 4TDs - ranked 40 Show me one place (Website,Cheatsheet, mag,) that shows them close. Show me a draft that shows them close. This is my issue - the Rbs are close so I'm not concerned with that- it's trading a 13th round pick for a 4th round pick Draft kennison in the 4th and see what your fellow owners say. Lamebert JeffKomlo, You originally posted this topic and asked us for opinions. You've definately seen opinions from both side of the fence; however, you seem to have your mind already made up regardless. Why bother asking for opinions? Fact of the matter is if I was a commissioner and asked the same question you did, generated a 8 page debate with good arguments from both sides, there would be enough doubt to not veto anything. After all in order to veto a trade due to collusion, it should be cut and dried. This topic is obviously not cut and dried. Commissioner's should have an open mind, make decisions that are best for the league, and allow the players to have fun. I'm beginning to wonder if your league has a bigger problem than what some here are referring to as a suspicious trade. Oh yeah and by the way---don't put so much merit in fantasy projections past the 4th round--it really doesn't mean much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blaneyfan 0 Posted August 29, 2007 My question with that is, what changed from the time they drafted until the trade that gave him the hardon for Caddy? Because he could have drafted him ahead of Jacobs...but chose not to. I could understand it if he went from Jacobs to an RB drafted ahead of him...but below? It makes it look quite fishy IMO. I have absolutely no idea, but who am I to assume anything about this guy or his team. The thread starter himself said it doesn't look like collusion and if it's not I really don't see what can be "fishy"about it. Maybe the guy thinks he has found something that is going to make him look like a genius, who knows? Was the owner that made this trade at the draft or did he miss it? I don't remember reading if he was or not in this novel of a thread. I would really like to read what the owner in question has had to say, have I missed it in this thread? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest _my_2_cents_ Posted August 29, 2007 Fact of the matter is if I was a commissioner and asked the same question you did, generated a 8 page debate with good arguments from both sides, there would be enough doubt to not veto anything. After all in order to veto a trade due to collusion, it should be cut and dried. This topic is obviously not cut and dried. Oh come on - you're really not going to use this topic as evidence of why the deal can't be vetoed are you? Please - this has been a bunch of monkeys focking a football. We're all over the place man. Many who feel it's not vetoable are arguing against it because they are against ALL vetoes, and that's been an argument in and of itself. Just because a few people can speculate 100 different ways about the why, it doesn't change the basic premise that a guy is handing another team an extra 3rd and an extra 4th round pick for his 6th and 15th round picks. And despite the creativity displayed by the "no veto at all costs" crowd in trying to explain that away, I still have yet to see anything that tells me that this isn't "cut & dry". To me it's cut & dry that it's so far out of whack that it should be vetoed regardless of the explanation, because nothing explains away the fact that the Jacobs/AJ owner could have drafted all four of these players yet chose not to, then suddenly 3 weeks later deemed them worthy of 2 of his 1st four picks. Sure he could have had a change of heart about the players, but the valuation of the players being dealt is somewhat universal - and is set by the fact that they were drafted where they were. Jacobs/AJ guy is either none too bright or the two are colluding, and either way some of us happen to believe that one man's extreme stupidity should not be allowed to hurt the entire league. But my point is that this topic has people arguing philosophy more than anything and cannot be pointed at as "proof" that this deal shouldn't be killed. That's you imposting your preference and propping up this topic as weak support of your call. Commissioner's should have an open mind, make decisions that are best for the league, and allow the players to have fun. I'm beginning to wonder if your league has a bigger problem than what some here are referring to as a suspicious trade. Oh yeah and by the way---don't put so much merit in fantasy projections past the 4th round--it really doesn't mean much. This is such a lame attempt to discredit anyone who uses projections - they mean plenty. ADP is what it is: where the majority of FFB-ers value players as they actually drafted them. Projections are what they are and a great many people put a hell of a lot of time & research into them - and often they are very accurate and well past round 4. And if it's being considered at all by the commish in any of my leagues (including the ones I do not commission) it means that 50%+ of the league took issue with it and the commish needs to use all tools at his/her disposal to evaluate the trade. That might include pre-season rankings from various credible FFB sites, it might mean checking ADP (where the Caddy/Kennison side gets totally rolled) and it might mean talking to the managers to determine intent as explained by them. On top of it all though it will be the decision of the commish - and if the commish shoots down the deal and can present HIS reasoning for doing so then it doesn't matter what happens at season's end. It's "asked & answered", per the league constitution and there ya go. I think it's amusing that so many point to the intent of the managers as the end all be all in a completely lopsided deal when even if they are cheating they'd be able to come up with something...hell, we have 10 people in here reaching for the deepest of possible reasons and they have no idea what's really happened so I guarantee the managers can make some crap up just the same. Yet if the commish makes a call as expected to at the point that the league vetoed, then suddenly you all know his intent and declare that he's a power mongering nazi basing it all on his projections. Sorry, but you're leaping to some pretty definitive conclusions here without a lot to support them, friend. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phillybear 366 Posted August 29, 2007 My question with that is, what changed from the time they drafted until the trade that gave him the hardon for Caddy? Because he could have drafted him ahead of Jacobs...but chose not to. I could understand it if he went from Jacobs to an RB drafted ahead of him...but below? It makes it look quite fishy IMO. Maybe he studied the strength of schedule since the draft date, and realized that Cadillac Williams had a very easy schedule. And Jacobs really hasn't distinguished himself in preseason. So the possible downgrade at WR is balanced out by the upgrade at RB. I don't think anyone could argue that Jacobs is clearly more valuable than Williams at this point, although they might be in the same tier. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lambert58 71 Posted August 29, 2007 Trending up and down means a year by year look at what the guys are doing. If you do so, you see AJ going up...Kennison going down. Get it yet? I doubt it. You are hopeless.Actually I say 8 games on its own is not relevant...nor is just this trend I am talking about. 8 games is cherry picking. Its like people claiming...if you take away the one long play he did not have such a good day. Its terrible. I never realized until this thread what a focking idiot you really are.. Trends are only one year?? COME ON!! Trends are what is defined by parameters. Trends can be last 40 plays, last 8 games, last 16 games, last 24 games. Why do you think the housing market has quarterly, yearly, and 5 year trends?? So you ARE saying that you will only acknowledge the last 16 games as a trend. That means that YOU are defining the only parameters that we can look at. The argument that Kennison is trending downward can be refuted by looking at a larger or smaller sample than you are defining. His production has remained at a steady level. Andre Johnson has not shown that he is ready to leap into the next level due to his touchdown production. He also showed towards the end of last year (a trend) that his production dropped dramatically. Why did his production drop by 50% over the last 1/2 season? Was it because teams finally saw enough of Kubiaks offense to gameplan better in stopping Johnson? That is a TREND that I believe is very relevent in seeing why Johnson's production dropped. A 1/2 season is a good parameter of measuring players as is a full year and 2 year. This gives us an idea of how a player has played over a short period, medium period, and long period of time.. You seriously need help. Your ego is out of control if you believe that trends can only be defined as a year to year thing. At least my02cents showed Johnsons production over the last 4 years to give a valid argument why he believes Johnson is improving. (though it does not show, in my opinion, any reason to believe that he will be a top 10 receiver). Of course you can't do that because you don't want to use 4 years and a players improvement should only be counted on the last 16 games.. Now if you would please answer the question as it pertains to Johnson by providing stats or facts instead of focuing on repeatedly denying what you said or that I am spinning things.. etc.. You must be a politician because you will not answer a question, you instead choose to go after the person asking the question.. If you AGAIN refuse to give a valid argument why you believe that Andre Johnson is a top 10 pick than I am finished with this topic. You are truly the hopeless one because you have yet to even attempt to show why Johnson should be a top 10 receiver. I have shown that he led the league in receptions but finished 35th in touchdowns (tied with Kennison). I have shown that he finished 38th in touchdowns per start. (Kennison finished 37th). I have gave reasons as to why I am concerned with Houstons offense, specifically with a new unproven quarterback, you have called this "spin". I have gave reasons as to why I believe defenses figured out how to stop Johnson ( last 8 games) and you call that idiotic.. Reminds me of arguing with a 2 year old.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites