Regarding Bush

[silvernblack4 0]

all of you are bums...reggie bush had a bad game he is a dynamic player who must learn to play within himself. though he may never have a 1200 yard rushing season he is a factor everytime he steps on the field are we forgetting the 2nd half of his ROOKIE season give the man a break

[waterwolves 0]

Season Team Rushing Receiving Fumbles

G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Long TD FUM Lost

2006 Philadelphia Eagles 15 14 240 1217 5.1 71T 7 77 699 9.1 52T 4 2 2

2005 Philadelphia Eagles 12 12 156 617 4.0 31 3 61 616 10.1 62 4 -- --

2004 Philadelphia Eagles 13 12 177 812 4.6 50 3 73 703 9.6 50 6 1 1

2003 Philadelphia Eagles 15 8 117 613 5.2 62T 7 37 332 9.0 38 4 3 2

2002 Philadelphia Eagles 15 3 46 193 4.2 18 0 9 86 9.6 20 0 2 2

TOTAL 736 3452 4.7 71 20 257 2436 9.5 62 18 8 7

 

 

 

These are Brian Westbrook's career numbers. I think he could easyily produce these numbers and I think he has more talent then Westbrook so I believe he will eventually produce better numbers. As you can see westbrook got better from his rookie season to his second year. Why can't bush get better?

[waterwolves 0]

Reggie has natural ability. I don't think anyone can doubt that but he doesn't have the power required of an every down NFL back to be effective on a consistant level. I liked the Eric Metcalf analogy. He's untouchable in open space but you are just not going to find it consistantly enough in the NFL to make him an elite back. He can improve in the next year or two if he got with a trainer and put on about 15 pounds of upper body strength.

 

 

Reggie is a freak. He could put 25 pounds on if he wanted too. I think he needs to add a little weight myself but not to much. Maybe 17 to get him up to 220. He is the same weight as westbrook but he is definantly slimmer then Westy because he is almost 2 inches taller. He needs to add it evenly too not just upper body. Remember Barrys legs? Huge!

[loser_ast 0]

Season Team Rushing Receiving Fumbles

G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Long TD FUM Lost

2006 Philadelphia Eagles 15 14 240 1217 5.1 71T 7 77 699 9.1 52T 4 2 2

2005 Philadelphia Eagles 12 12 156 617 4.0 31 3 61 616 10.1 62 4 -- --

2004 Philadelphia Eagles 13 12 177 812 4.6 50 3 73 703 9.6 50 6 1 1

2003 Philadelphia Eagles 15 8 117 613 5.2 62T 7 37 332 9.0 38 4 3 2

2002 Philadelphia Eagles 15 3 46 193 4.2 18 0 9 86 9.6 20 0 2 2

TOTAL 736 3452 4.7 71 20 257 2436 9.5 62 18 8 7

These are Brian Westbrook's career numbers. I think he could easyily produce these numbers and I think he has more talent then Westbrook so I believe he will eventually produce better numbers. As you can see westbrook got better from his rookie season to his second year. Why can't bush get better?

 

That's all we can do is HOPE he improves. Indy defense actually looked damn good and New Orleans really looked crappy overall. WRs dropping balls, New Orleans defense was atrocious, Brees throwing picks and not looking comfortable in the pocket, and Bush tripping over his own shoestrings. There was one run he actually ran into his own blocker instead of the hole I was like WTF? Like others have said in this thread less dancing and more running forward is needed. If things haven't improved by the Bye week in week 4 I think it's time to worry.

[Underbruin 0]

It is not a PPR league, thus Bush not going as high as he would have in a PPR. I have always had Addai ranked as a 5-6 pick in round one. He went exactly where he has gone in mocks and other drafts. You have him ranked higher than most people do and that is fine.

Yeah, I know I have Addai a bit high, but I don't see too many at 6 (maybe I'm not following enough drafts mock or otherwise) - generally he's gone by 5 at the latest in pretty much all the ones I've seen, and as high as 2 in a couple (not that I agree, but I've seen it - Colts homers, maybe?). Anyway, hope Bush does better for you next week, and g'luck with the season.

[Therook 1]

I don't think that it was bush's fault tonight. It was totally the play calling. Almost every hand off was that gay HB delay draw bull sh!t. If you are going to run the ball RUN THE BALL. Have the Oline men T off on the D line men. Instead they had the HB delay almost every hand off to bush and he is getting hit as soon as he touches the ball. I was impressed that he didn't fumble a couple of times since he was being hit as the hand off was taking place. Peyton's play calling was brutal tonight. The screens were to Deuce and almost nothing but half back delays to bush and allot of underneath crap to the TE and WR's instead of stretching the field.

 

Bush didn't have a good game but come on don't call HB delays and have the o line men drop into pass rush defence when playing the colts who are known for their pass rush and penetration behind the line. Let Bush run with it while calling plays where the o line T off and open up some holes and let Bush get going at full speed. Or put him in the slot and stretch the field like they did the last half of the season.

 

I still think Bush will have a good year but Peyton has to do a better job of calling plays so he isn't hit as soon as he gets the hand off and so he can get up to full speed. Deuce also had a bad game due to the play calling. Screen to deuce ... stretch to deuce.....yeah get fancy with Deuce instead of busting it up the gut.

 

My 2 cents,

Therook

[adam smitty 0]

Kid was awesome in college, but in games I've seen him in his NFL career (admittedly only maybe 3), I've seen him caught from behind on numerous occassions, including play a few minutes ago.

 

Sometimes by players at traditionally 'slower' positions and more often than I personally would expect from a guy who's game is predicated on speed and quickness.

 

In college I don't think I ever saw that happen with him...if he got the corner he was gone.

 

Is he just not as fast or quick as billed, especially at the NFL level?

 

Discuss.

 

I talked about the same thing with the guys I was watching with tonite. I just dont see that Bush has it when it comes to being an NFL RB. Sure he is extremley athletic and quick and will get some big plays but he makes the wrong cuts and like you said gets ran down way too often.

[yostevo 0]

Reggie is a freak. He could put 25 pounds on if he wanted too. I think he needs to add a little weight myself but not to much. Maybe 17 to get him up to 220. He is the same weight as westbrook but he is definantly slimmer then Westy because he is almost 2 inches taller. He needs to add it evenly too not just upper body. Remember Barrys legs? Huge!

 

Anything above 15 pounds and I think he starts to lose his explosivness but clearly there is room for improvement. I think I'm a victim of the hype machine.

[Jedi Sensei 17]

How about we talk about being a rookie in the NFL? How that means more than most people probably realize. We can also throw out all preseason games, since they mean absolutely nothing aside from getting a feel for game speed. A decent sample size is having a few years in the league, not 18 games including a rookie season. As for the Saints being an enormous fluke- I guess Brees throwing for nearly 5k yards was flukish too, must have gotten lucky in 16 games. Wait, didnt you just say that's a decent sample size? If that's a decent sample size, how are they a fluke? Seems to be a bit of a convoluted argument here, John Kerry.

 

Add: I think much of Bush's success depends upon which kind of league you have him in, a some people here mentioned. SO for me, he wont be a bust since he is a lock for 60 receptions and 500 yards.

 

18 > 1.

 

The "Bush Haters" are not simply going off one-games' performance; he's danced in all of 'em. That's what's I's trying to point out. I'd like to see more before I can make a definitive pronouncement, of course. [ps -- He's my RB2, if only reluctantly]

 

Rookies dance a lot, but they learn not to real quick, or they don't make it. Or they have multi-million dollar contracts that compell their coaches to play them regardless.

 

As for Brees...yes, essentially, his '06 was flukish. He had 8 games over 350y -- one with 510. The others? 160y/G. 10 plays went for over 50y. To me, this is a combination of blown coverages, opponents underestimating the 'lowly' Saints, and just plain weak opponents. His success directly tied to the Saints'. This year, they'll need more. And if they don't get it, Bush suffers the most.

[waterwolves 0]

18 > 1.

 

 

 

As for Brees...yes, essentially, his '06 was flukish. He had 8 games over 350y -- one with 510. The others? 160y/G. 10 plays went for over 50y.

 

Sorry bro I am not going to sit hear and double team you but that is no fluke. That is a huge year anyway you cut it. Plus he was no slouch in San Diego.

[yostevo 0]

To say N.O.'s offense is/was a fluke in any way is a complete farce. Any team can be stopped including the Colts in a single game. The Saints present matchup problems all over the field and lesser teams (which is about 85% of the NFL) will be exposed by them. They may not put up the same numbers as last year but you can bet the farm that they end up in the top 10 in offense.

[Jedi Sensei 17]

Sorry bro I am not going to sit hear and double team you but that is no fluke. That is a huge year anyway you cut it. Plus he was no slouch in San Diego.

 

That's my point; Bree's year was huge, uncommon and inconsistent. No doubt Brees has the ability, as his years in SD showed, but '06 was a career year, under unique circumstances, and will be hard to repeat.

 

aNyways, I was talking about Bush, and specifically about the comment that the 'haters' are on him after one game (pointing out that we've seen it for a year+ now), so I don't know how this all got messed up.

 

All I know is, I'd like to be wrong on this one, and Bush (and Brees, I suppose ) blow-up and IMPROVE on last year!!

 

[just not against the Bears!!]

 

[waterwolves 0]

That's my point; Bree's year was huge, uncommon and inconsistent. No doubt Brees has the ability, as his years in SD showed, but '06 was a career year, under unique circumstances, and will be hard to repeat.

 

aNyways, I was talking about Bush, and specifically about the comment that the 'haters' are on him after one game (pointing out that we've seen it for a year+ now), so I don't know how this all got messed up.

 

All I know is, I'd like to be wrong on this one, and Bush (and Brees, I suppose ) blow-up and IMPROVE on last year!!

 

[just not against the Bears!!]

 

 

Yeah I hear ya. I understand what some guys are starting to say about Bush. He could go down as the biggest bust ever but I still think it is early. Somebody was comparing him to Metcalf. Did Metcalf ever have a game like this?

 

168 total yards and 4 TD's I know it is only one game but I think it is important to show what reggie is capable of. Huge upside.

[adidas 2]

Your always going to have your "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" guys that freak out when a player/team has a bad game. Reggie Bush was by NO means the only player on the field that looked horrid tonight. That entire team sucked it up big time. The CB's were god awful. I know, #87 and #88 are two of the premier backs and have been for some time (I have Wayne this year, yay me!) and I am positive it must be a BIT*H trying to cover them but your a professional CB in the National Football League.....if you get burned once on the post make sure your arse is not out of position to get burned again on the post.....and again, and again lol. Relax fellas. Indy had a VERY solid game..the D played lights out, Reggie, Marvin and Peyton looked solid as always and the Saints just had a very bad day.They will more than likely bounce back next week and Bush will more than likely put up solid numbers. The one thing that really impressed me was Addai's running.....he looked very good tonight. I was concerned about his durability this year, granted it's only the first game of the season but if he runs like he did tonight for the rest of the year he will have finally sold me on his ability.

[NAn 39]

I started this topic part in jest, but really was curious to hear some discussion.

 

Couple things:

 

I'm not a Bush-Hater

But I don't have his nuts on my chin either. I the mange bored these days.

Why do you have to be a hater or lover of a player? Can it be possible to just debate a player and not necessarily have it be about liking or not liking him? It's like the Geek Bored with the politics...rarely any actual debate, just party hardlining.

It's not about ripping him b/c I don't like him...as a fan of football, he was exciting to watch in college and I appreciated seeing him play. It's just DISCUSSING him as a player. Novel I know, but true.

 

Not just talking THIS game

I say in opening post, I was talking about 3 full games worth I saw him play in tonight and last year. I know, small sample. But isn't it telling that I ONLY saw that many games and recall him being taken down from behind on a number of occassions?

 

I'm talking NFL NOT FF

I don't own Bush and didn't play anybody who has him. That wasn't the point. I'm just talking about how he peformed as a collegiate player...which affected how he was percieved and projected and picked into the NFL...and how he has performed as an NFL player.

Again, I concede that only watched him in maybe 3 full games, but tonight when he took the carry off tackle toward the edge and was then CAUGHT by what looked like a lineman or linebacker (honestly not sure, but looked like a bigger player, chime in if know otherwise). As soon as I saw that play I immediately remember seeing it happen in previous games with him on a number of occassions. By contrast, I also flashed back to some of his college games (I'm a Cal fan so saw more than him that I wanted) and how, on similiar plays, he wasn't caught, he was GONE.

One of the first replies mentioned the difference in SPEED in NFL v college and yes, I agree. But again, for a player who's game is predicated on speed, for me to see the play tonight and immediately remember the same thing happen on a few other plays...especially when I've ONLY seen 3 games...just jumped out at me.

 

Speed, cutbacks, breaking tackles

Some excellent points made about him 'dancing' trying to cutback...which worked in college, but not as much now. And yes, in college he was so fast he didn't need to break tackles...he often didn't have anybody get SET TO tackle him. I'll add that did anybody else notice how he seem to run out of control? (actually don't remember this previous to tonight, but saw it several times tonight) Where he pretty much fell as he started to put it in gear?

 

Comparisons

I'm not even going there with Sanders...not even in same zip code IMO. But think I read Peter Warrick and Eric Metcalf...fitting IMO, just funny that those are players from awhile ago. You would think, thinking of smallish RBs, a name of one more recent would come up, namely Warrick Dunn. But thinking about it, the fact that the comparison to Dunn was NOT made, makes sense. Dunn is smallish, even in heyday, not as quick/fast as Bush, but Dunn to me was/is more decisive. Spins, high knees, pumps his legs, makes himself an even smaller target, compact: to break tackles in a crowd in addition to using his speed in open field. Which brings me to another point of discussion...

 

Athleticism/Natural Ability v Technique

To my pt of Dunn v Bush...NO doubt Bush has great athleticism and natural ability. But has he gotten to where he is (and to where he was in college) based much on that and NOT on technique? Of coure NOT saying ignoring technique, but maybe b/c of his natural ability hasn't relied on technique as much as other RBs.

 

This started slow...then I did my night routine to get myself/kids prepped to go in the morning and went from 12 to 50 posts.

 

Please...let's continue discussion/debate and love to hear opinions on my takes above.

Again...wait for it now...just for the sake of discussion/debate.

[waterwolves 0]

I started this topic part in jest, but really was curious to hear some discussion.

 

Couple things:

 

I'm not a Bush-Hater

But I don't have his nuts on my chin either. I the mange bored these days.

Why do you have to be a hater or lover of a player? Can it be possible to just debate a player and not necessarily have it be about liking or not liking him? It's like the Geek Bored with the politics...rarely any actual debate, just party hardlining.

It's not about ripping him b/c I don't like him...as a fan of football, he was exciting to watch in college and I appreciated seeing him play. It's just DISCUSSING him as a player. Novel I know, but true.

 

Not just talking THIS game

I say in opening post, I was talking about 3 full games worth I saw him play in tonight and last year. I know, small sample. But isn't it telling that I ONLY saw that many games and recall him being taken down from behind on a number of occassions?

 

I'm talking NFL NOT FF

I don't own Bush and didn't play anybody who has him. That wasn't the point. I'm just talking about how he peformed as a collegiate player...which affected how he was percieved and projected and picked into the NFL...and how he has performed as an NFL player.

Again, I concede that only watched him in maybe 3 full games, but tonight when he took the carry off tackle toward the edge and was then CAUGHT by what looked like a lineman or linebacker (honestly not sure, but looked like a bigger player, chime in if know otherwise). As soon as I saw that play I immediately remember seeing it happen in previous games with him on a number of occassions. By contrast, I also flashed back to some of his college games (I'm a Cal fan so saw more than him that I wanted) and how, on similiar plays, he wasn't caught, he was GONE.

One of the first replies mentioned the difference in SPEED in NFL v college and yes, I agree. But again, for a player who's game is predicated on speed, for me to see the play tonight and immediately remember the same thing happen on a few other plays...especially when I've ONLY seen 3 games...just jumped out at me.

 

Speed, cutbacks, breaking tackles

Some excellent points made about him 'dancing' trying to cutback...which worked in college, but not as much now. And yes, in college he was so fast he didn't need to break tackles...he often didn't have anybody get SET TO tackle him. I'll add that did anybody else notice how he seem to run out of control? (actually don't remember this previous to tonight, but saw it several times tonight) Where he pretty much fell as he started to put it in gear?

 

Comparisons

I'm not even going there with Sanders...not even in same zip code IMO. But think I read Peter Warrick and Eric Metcalf...fitting IMO, just funny that those are players from awhile ago. You would think, thinking of smallish RBs, a name of one more recent would come up, namely Warrick Dunn. But thinking about it, the fact that the comparison to Dunn was NOT made, makes sense. Dunn is smallish, even in heyday, not as quick/fast as Bush, but Dunn to me was/is more decisive. Spins, high knees, pumps his legs, makes himself an even smaller target, compact: to break tackles in a crowd in addition to using his speed in open field. Which brings me to another point of discussion...

 

Athleticism/Natural Ability v Technique

To my pt of Dunn v Bush...NO doubt Bush has great athleticism and natural ability. But has he gotten to where he is (and to where he was in college) based much on that and NOT on technique? Of coure NOT saying ignoring technique, but maybe b/c of his natural ability hasn't relied on technique as much as other RBs.

 

This started slow...then I did my night routine to get myself/kids prepped to go in the morning and went from 12 to 50 posts.

 

Please...let's continue discussion/debate and love to hear opinions on my takes above.

Again...wait for it now...just for the sake of discussion/debate.

 

He does look out of control at times. I think he will slow down just enough with a little more experience. I think he had a bad game tonight but so did his offensive line. LT wouldn't have gained much more then what Duece/Bush did tonight. I still think that Bush will blow up this year but........... I am a little worried about the offense in general. If the hole offense sucks it will make it twice as hard for Bush to explode this year. He definantly needs space to excell but I think this offense can create that for him.

[eagles114 0]

After watching that terrible display last night put on by the whole saints team I am sadden I drafted reggie 12th even in a ppr league.

[surferskin 30]

i think the key word to describing bush's running is INDECISION. i don't think he doesn't break tackles because he's too weak...he doesn't break them because he doesn't pick a hole and run with power. compared to guys with similar size (portis, tiki, westbrook)...these guys break a ton of tackles because they make one or two cuts, causing the defender to get off balance and run with authority(north south). for bush it's pretty difficult to break tackles when you tippy toe around the hole and go east/west all the time. it was pretty amazing when that white defensive end for the colts caught bush before he got the corner...welcome to the NFL reggie.

[SmartassBoiler 0]

12 team league and a real league. Took Addai at pick 6 and Bush in the second round. Bush is overrated and fell, as he would in a real league.

 

Addai wouldn't have fallen to #6 in a "real" league.

 

HTH

[Therook 1]

i think the key word to describing bush's running is INDECISION. i don't think he doesn't break tackles because he's too weak...he doesn't break them because he doesn't pick a hole and run with power. compared to guys with similar size (portis, tiki, westbrook)...these guys break a ton of tackles because they make one or two cuts, causing the defender to get off balance and run with authority(north south). for bush it's pretty difficult to break tackles when you tippy toe around the hole and go east/west all the time. it was pretty amazing when that white defensive end for the colts caught bush before he got the corner...welcome to the NFL reggie.

 

When did he have a chance to pick a hole? Most of his hand off's were the HB delays and he was getting hit as soon as he took the hand off. Except for the tackled for a loss when he chose to cut back behind the blocker when he should have cut up field they didn't call many plays for him were he could pick a hole and hit it.

 

Therook

[NAn 39]

i think the key word to describing bush's running is INDECISION. i don't think he doesn't break tackles because he's too weak...he doesn't break them because he doesn't pick a hole and run with power.

 

My pt with the athleticsim v technique thing is that maybe he's relied on his speed/athleticsm so much that he doesn't have alot of technique in breaking tackles: spins, making himself smaller target, high knees, etc.

 

Thinking back to college we didn't call it indecision when he paused or cutback b/c he still had speed over his opponents to still make a play for positive yds...at this level it's not happening so we're calling it indecision.

[VaTerp 0]

A few of my thoughts on Bush

 

1. As far as the hater and nut swinger thing, it is unfortunate that a lot of good discussion on this bored gives way to the extremes. Its like people want to be the first, or most vocal, supporter or detractor of someone so everything has to be stated in extremes. Part of it is the media overkill of Bush causes a backlash and there are some people that are on his nuts a lil too much but thats what happens in this day and age where we are oversaturated with coverage and the thousands of media outlets overhype just about everything.

 

I am somewhat biased as a Bush owner in 2 of my leagues. Obviously, I think highly of him or I wouldnt have taken him but I still feel that I can discuss a football player rationally and objectively.

 

2. Getting to the actual discussion of Bush as a player, it remains to be seen whether or not Bush can, or ever will have the opportunity, to be a true feature back in the NFL. I believe that he can but it would always be wise to have a more between the tackles type of Rb to help him out. Its very premature for people to be saying that he will never be able to do this or that. There were people saying the same things about Tiki and Westbrook earlier in their careers.

 

3. There are two criticisms of Bush in this thread that I disagree with entirely. One, is the questioning of his speed b/c he was supposedly "caught from behind" last nite and on several other plays last year according to the OP. When was this? Caught from behind means that a player was out in front of somebody in the open field and someone litereally caught him from behind. I have not ever seen this with Bush and certainly not last night. There were a few times when Bush tried to get to the corner and defenders had the ANGLE on him and made the tackle but that is not in any way "being caught from behind."

 

The second criticism I would dispute is that Bush lacks adequate power to be a feature back and that he is incapable of breaking tackles. Bush broke a few tackles last night. Notably on the 3rd down misdirection play where he got a 1st down. He also got another first down where he gained several yards after initial contact. There was a run he had in a game last year where Bush broke several tackles before being pulled down at the 1 and scoring on the next carry. He does need to do a better job of playing behind his pads but I think he is plenty powerful enough to get the job done. He's never gonna be the type of RB that runs over people but thats not his game.

 

4. I would agree w/ Surferskin that Bush did look indecisive at times last nite. The O-line play was terrible and didnt give him much to work with but even on the first punt return of the game Bush looked very indecisive. There's a fine line for NFL Rbs between being patience and indecision. I think Bush is still learning in that regard. In high school and college he had an extra second to decide where he wanted to go b/c he was so much more talented than most of the guys on the field. Obviously the NFL is a different beast and I think Bush will get "it." Last nite just wasnt his best game.

 

5. I think a lot of people are really overreacting to one game. When I drafted Bush I knew that there were other players on the board who may be a lil more consistent but I chose to go w/ upside. You had to expect a few games like this. Was I expecting it against what appeared to be a vulnerable Colt defense on national TV? No, but it happens. Additionally, its not like the Saints played well and Bush layed an egg. The whole team stunk. Brees did not play well and the O-line was terrible. And I have a lot of respect for Sean Payton as a play caller but I thought he was terrible last night as well. It was like the Saints didnt know the Colts would be in cover 2. Not once did they attack down field. Part of that prolly had to do w/ the struggles of the O-line but there was way too much dinkin and dunkin and trying to be cute stuff for me. But again, it was one game. Im sure they'll adjust.

 

In the end, I would say the jury is still out on Bush. He is obviously extremely talented but we all know that is not enough in the NFL. I believe that he will put it all together and will do it sooner rather than later. I have been right about players before and wrong about players before so my opinion is no better or worse than anybody else. But for so many people to be so eager to say he will never be able to do this or that I think is pre-mature. Just as it is premature to annoit him the next Great RB. For the sake of my FF season I hope Bush realizes his potential starting in week 2 but its still only the second week of his second season. Lets give it a lil more time before we all pass final judgement on his career.

[49ers_suck 0]

i've never been real high on bush, that said i'm not ready to throw him out with the bath water. he didn't have much of a chance last nite. Indy's D was awesome! and NO's offense wasn't. that game was a complete domination by Indy.

[waterwolves 0]

My pt with the athleticsim v technique thing is that maybe he's relied on his speed/athleticsm so much that he doesn't have alot of technique in breaking tackles: spins, making himself smaller target, high knees, etc.

 

Thinking back to college we didn't call it indecision when he paused or cutback b/c he still had speed over his opponents to still make a play for positive yds...at this level it's not happening so we're calling it indecision.

 

 

My point is this: Can he be taught to make better decisions? People are giving up on him and I think it is way to early. Especially after the last half of last year.

 

Look, there are things you can't teach. Speed, size, over all athetic abilitiy. Things like technique can be taught if the player is willing to learn. Classic example. TO vs R. Moss. One started off slow and got incredibly better though out his career. The other had the best start in NFL history but has faded as of late.

 

The point is TO is a great learner of technique and Moss is not. So what is Bush going to be? Is he to good to learn from others or can he be taught.

[qimqam 1]

I am a Bush owner and I am very disappointed with the way he runs. As noted earlier

He doesnt seem to hit the holes ... he tries to make a huge gain instead of taking the 3-5 yard gain

He goes down instantly on contact

He always seems to get hit very hard ... Good running backs like emmitt, sanders, Tiki rarely ever take big hits .

[Jokers 0]

I don't know if Indy's D is suddenly great, or the Saint's O-line took the night off, but if the Saint's O-line continues to play the season like they did last night, It is going to be a long season for Brees, McCallister, Bush, etc.

[kwhiz73 0]

I am a Bush owner and I am very disappointed with the way he runs. As noted earlier

He doesnt seem to hit the holes ... he tries to make a huge gain instead of taking the 3-5 yard gain

He goes down instantly on contact

He always seems to get hit very hard ... Good running backs like emmitt, sanders, Tiki rarely ever take big hits .

 

Um first of all to include Tiki in the same sentence with Emmitt and Barry is a bit strange....second of all Emmitt took plenty of big hits during his career as did Barber. Barry is the only one of the 3 that amost never got hit head on solidly.

[hov 1]

I am a Bush owner and I am very disappointed with the way he runs. As noted earlier

He doesnt seem to hit the holes ... he tries to make a huge gain instead of taking the 3-5 yard gain

He goes down instantly on contact

He always seems to get hit very hard ... Good running backs like emmitt, sanders, Tiki rarely ever take big hits .

 

 

I think that this is a very good point, although it's already been noted that Bush didn't really seem to have any 'holes' to hit last night. I even thought I heard Madden elude to this during one of his rants. I suppose you could argue, but his point was for good runners to 'save themselves' from unnecessary brutality. Once you get the first down, there is really no need to CRUSH straight into tacklers and risk injury, fumbles, or the pounding.

 

The entire Saints offence was completely out of sync and Reggie won't produce at his full potential until they get back on track. The way Brees looked in the preseason, I wouldn't completely write them off yet...

[phlegmish 4]

I started this topic part in jest, but really was curious to hear some discussion.

 

Couple things:

 

I'm not a Bush-Hater

But I don't have his nuts on my chin either. I the mange bored these days.

Why do you have to be a hater or lover of a player? Can it be possible to just debate a player and not necessarily have it be about liking or not liking him? It's like the Geek Bored with the politics...rarely any actual debate, just party hardlining.

It's not about ripping him b/c I don't like him...as a fan of football, he was exciting to watch in college and I appreciated seeing him play. It's just DISCUSSING him as a player. Novel I know, but true.

 

Not just talking THIS game

I say in opening post, I was talking about 3 full games worth I saw him play in tonight and last year. I know, small sample. But isn't it telling that I ONLY saw that many games and recall him being taken down from behind on a number of occassions?

 

I'm talking NFL NOT FF

I don't own Bush and didn't play anybody who has him. That wasn't the point. I'm just talking about how he peformed as a collegiate player...which affected how he was percieved and projected and picked into the NFL...and how he has performed as an NFL player.

Again, I concede that only watched him in maybe 3 full games, but tonight when he took the carry off tackle toward the edge and was then CAUGHT by what looked like a lineman or linebacker (honestly not sure, but looked like a bigger player, chime in if know otherwise). As soon as I saw that play I immediately remember seeing it happen in previous games with him on a number of occassions. By contrast, I also flashed back to some of his college games (I'm a Cal fan so saw more than him that I wanted) and how, on similiar plays, he wasn't caught, he was GONE.

One of the first replies mentioned the difference in SPEED in NFL v college and yes, I agree. But again, for a player who's game is predicated on speed, for me to see the play tonight and immediately remember the same thing happen on a few other plays...especially when I've ONLY seen 3 games...just jumped out at me.

 

Speed, cutbacks, breaking tackles

Some excellent points made about him 'dancing' trying to cutback...which worked in college, but not as much now. And yes, in college he was so fast he didn't need to break tackles...he often didn't have anybody get SET TO tackle him. I'll add that did anybody else notice how he seem to run out of control? (actually don't remember this previous to tonight, but saw it several times tonight) Where he pretty much fell as he started to put it in gear?

 

Comparisons

I'm not even going there with Sanders...not even in same zip code IMO. But think I read Peter Warrick and Eric Metcalf...fitting IMO, just funny that those are players from awhile ago. You would think, thinking of smallish RBs, a name of one more recent would come up, namely Warrick Dunn. But thinking about it, the fact that the comparison to Dunn was NOT made, makes sense. Dunn is smallish, even in heyday, not as quick/fast as Bush, but Dunn to me was/is more decisive. Spins, high knees, pumps his legs, makes himself an even smaller target, compact: to break tackles in a crowd in addition to using his speed in open field. Which brings me to another point of discussion...

 

Athleticism/Natural Ability v Technique

To my pt of Dunn v Bush...NO doubt Bush has great athleticism and natural ability. But has he gotten to where he is (and to where he was in college) based much on that and NOT on technique? Of coure NOT saying ignoring technique, but maybe b/c of his natural ability hasn't relied on technique as much as other RBs.

 

This started slow...then I did my night routine to get myself/kids prepped to go in the morning and went from 12 to 50 posts.

 

Please...let's continue discussion/debate and love to hear opinions on my takes above.

Again...wait for it now...just for the sake of discussion/debate.

 

I'm certainly not high on Reggie (not top 10 RB yet) but to compare him to Metcalf and Warrick is pretty ridiculous. Metcalf never weighed more than 190 pounds wet and only twice in 13 years rushed for more than 500 yds - '89 (rookie year, had him on my fantasy team that year...) and '93. And the only year he had as many rec. yds as Bush's ROOKIE season was '94 in Atlanta - 104 rec, 1189yds and 8....and he only had 28 carries that year...

 

Warrick comparison doesn't even deserve space here...

 

 

IMO Bush will continue to both aggravate and astound NFL and FFL fans in RBBC for now. Two years from now he'll probably weigh 215-220, be the lead back in NO and be putting up Faulk-ian numbers every year...

 

I'm just pissed in my keeper league that I got Lenwhale and another owner, in my division, got Bush....

[mec411 0]

He could go down as the biggest bust ever but I still think it is early.

 

Biggest bust ever? I have a couple names Bush will NEVER touch: Ryan Leaf, Andre Ware, B Bozworth, Heath Shuler, Akili Smith, Lawrence Phillips, Charles Rogers...I could keep going...I mean he has already had more success than all of those guys so to say he would be the biggest bust ever is a HUGE overstatement.

[mec411 0]

I started this topic part in jest, but really was curious to hear some discussion.

 

Couple things:

 

I'm not a Bush-Hater

But I don't have his nuts on my chin either. I the mange bored these days.

Why do you have to be a hater or lover of a player? Can it be possible to just debate a player and not necessarily have it be about liking or not liking him? It's like the Geek Bored with the politics...rarely any actual debate, just party hardlining.

It's not about ripping him b/c I don't like him...as a fan of football, he was exciting to watch in college and I appreciated seeing him play. It's just DISCUSSING him as a player. Novel I know, but true.

 

Not just talking THIS game

I say in opening post, I was talking about 3 full games worth I saw him play in tonight and last year. I know, small sample. But isn't it telling that I ONLY saw that many games and recall him being taken down from behind on a number of occassions?

 

I'm talking NFL NOT FF

I don't own Bush and didn't play anybody who has him. That wasn't the point. I'm just talking about how he peformed as a collegiate player...which affected how he was percieved and projected and picked into the NFL...and how he has performed as an NFL player.

Again, I concede that only watched him in maybe 3 full games, but tonight when he took the carry off tackle toward the edge and was then CAUGHT by what looked like a lineman or linebacker (honestly not sure, but looked like a bigger player, chime in if know otherwise). As soon as I saw that play I immediately remember seeing it happen in previous games with him on a number of occassions. By contrast, I also flashed back to some of his college games (I'm a Cal fan so saw more than him that I wanted) and how, on similiar plays, he wasn't caught, he was GONE.

One of the first replies mentioned the difference in SPEED in NFL v college and yes, I agree. But again, for a player who's game is predicated on speed, for me to see the play tonight and immediately remember the same thing happen on a few other plays...especially when I've ONLY seen 3 games...just jumped out at me.

 

Speed, cutbacks, breaking tackles

Some excellent points made about him 'dancing' trying to cutback...which worked in college, but not as much now. And yes, in college he was so fast he didn't need to break tackles...he often didn't have anybody get SET TO tackle him. I'll add that did anybody else notice how he seem to run out of control? (actually don't remember this previous to tonight, but saw it several times tonight) Where he pretty much fell as he started to put it in gear?

 

Comparisons

I'm not even going there with Sanders...not even in same zip code IMO. But think I read Peter Warrick and Eric Metcalf...fitting IMO, just funny that those are players from awhile ago. You would think, thinking of smallish RBs, a name of one more recent would come up, namely Warrick Dunn. But thinking about it, the fact that the comparison to Dunn was NOT made, makes sense. Dunn is smallish, even in heyday, not as quick/fast as Bush, but Dunn to me was/is more decisive. Spins, high knees, pumps his legs, makes himself an even smaller target, compact: to break tackles in a crowd in addition to using his speed in open field. Which brings me to another point of discussion...

 

Athleticism/Natural Ability v Technique

To my pt of Dunn v Bush...NO doubt Bush has great athleticism and natural ability. But has he gotten to where he is (and to where he was in college) based much on that and NOT on technique? Of coure NOT saying ignoring technique, but maybe b/c of his natural ability hasn't relied on technique as much as other RBs.

 

This started slow...then I did my night routine to get myself/kids prepped to go in the morning and went from 12 to 50 posts.

 

Please...let's continue discussion/debate and love to hear opinions on my takes above.

Again...wait for it now...just for the sake of discussion/debate.

 

Point taken. But dont get your panties all up in a bunch when you left your argument open for interpretation. If you had posted all of these things from the beginning, it probably would have changed the course of the argument. And this is a FF forum, thus, dont be shocked that it turned into a FF discussion. Novel, I know, but true.

[NAn 39]

TERP

Solid post man...appreciate the fact that you are a Pro-Bush guy, but at least give intelligent analysis/opinion beyond 'Shut th e %$#@ up Nan...you're just a hater! Bush is God!'

 

To clarify a couple of my personal takes...

 

I'm by no means stating here and now 'Bush Sucks'...I'm just debating where he IS as a player. To be honest my opinion right now is: Far from sucks...better RB than maybe half the league. But still has a long way to go before he meets any kind of elite/star status on the field and not on the ad circuit.

 

I'm not saying he's incapable of breaking tackles, only that he may not have had as much tutelage or training in doing so as many other rbs, b/c in college his speed often put him out of reach of potential tackles. And that's also not to say he hasn't or can't break tackles, just that the technique isn't as honed as with some others.

 

Regarding 'caught from behind'...good point that the play I was referring to was more from an angle. I will add though, that still, that I've seen other young rbs in recent memory who, once they got to the edge, were gone and not caught from behind/angle/or otherwise...Parker, MJD, even Deangleo...and I would expect Bush would be able to do at least as much as those RBs.

 

Again, I'm not naysaying after one game, I was referring to a number of games I watched....I will make a pt that when I have opportunity to watch him play I will do so more attentively as his progression as an NFL RB definitely warrants future debate/discusion

 

PHLEGM

Admittedly, really thinking about it, likely agree that comparison to Metcalf/Warrick probably unwarranted. But, also consider the Sanders comparison even more so. Likely somewhere in between...which brings me back to Dunn. Thoughts on comparison there?

[skins56 0]

First off let me state that I am indeed a Bush owner. I took him at 12 in a ten team league because I had him as the 12 the best RB just ahead of McGahee and 11 RBs went before my pick. Here's a couple positive things about Bush so you don't freak out just yet:

1) In the preseason he ran like he did in the 2nd half last year...I thought he was over what he looked like last night but I'm taking it more of a fluke and figure that Payton will get him straightened out. He couldn't even catch the ball last night, I have to think that game was more of an abberation more than a trend.

 

2) He was on the field for 90% of their offensive plays. Thats the really good thing about last night, even when the game was close and they weren't in every down passing situations he was on the field...whether that was at RB, wing, split out, it doesn't matter because Payton will get him the ball.

[skins56 0]

First off let me state that I am indeed a Bush owner. I took him at 12 in a ten team league because I had him as the 12 the best RB just ahead of McGahee and 11 RBs went before my pick. Here's a couple positive things about Bush so you don't freak out just yet:

1) In the preseason he ran like he did in the 2nd half last year...I thought he was over what he looked like last night but I'm taking it more of a fluke and figure that Payton will get him straightened out. He couldn't even catch the ball last night, I have to think that game was more of an abberation more than a trend.

 

2) He was on the field for 90% of their offensive plays. Thats the really good thing about last night, even when the game was close and they weren't in every down passing situations he was on the field...whether that was at RB, wing, split out, it doesn't matter because Payton will get him the ball.

 

I also should have stated that I'm more optimistic about him becoming a fantasy stud more than an every down NFL RB because I agree with a lot of what others have said negatively about him.

[NAn 39]

Point taken. But dont get your panties all up in a bunch when you left your argument open for interpretation. If you had posted all of these things from the beginning, it probably would have changed the course of the argument. And this is a FF forum, thus, dont be shocked that it turned into a FF discussion. Novel, I know, but true.

 

where did that come from man?

 

The sarcasm wasn't aimed at my opinion being attacked...it was at the idea of debating a player for the sake of doing so, instead of the usual hardlining of having to like or hate a player.

 

 

And the point of the long post was to clarify my personal take...others chimed in saying 'stop being a hater', 'spelling doom after one game', 'he still got his touches' etc. and I was just clarifying that I wasn't saying any of that. You say leaving my arguement open for debate...I referred to NONE of that in my initial post, so how did I leave it open? Apparently others opened it up beyond what I was referring to.

 

And LOL, yes it's a FF forum, for FF discussion...think most folks on board would say I'm one of the biggest advocates of that.

But I'm talking intelligent, thought out debate...not the 'Player Y Sucks and if you like him you suck', 'Player X is God and if you think otherwise you suck' rhetoric that often peforates the board.

 

I don't know how often you spend on the board, but the former OFTEN times IS the NOVELTY on the board.

[mec411 0]

where did that come from man?

 

The sarcasm wasn't aimed at my opinion being attacked...it was at the idea of debating a player for the sake of doing so, instead of the usual hardlining of having to like or hate a player.

And the point of the long post was to clarify my personal take...others chimed in saying 'stop being a hater', 'spelling doom after one game', 'he still got his touches' etc. and I was just clarifying that I wasn't saying any of that. You say leaving my arguement open for debate...I referred to NONE of that in my initial post, so how did I leave it open? Apparently others opened it up beyond what I was referring to.

 

And LOL, yes it's a FF forum, for FF discussion...think most folks on board would say I'm one of the biggest advocates of that.

But I'm talking intelligent, thought out debate...not the 'Player Y Sucks and if you like him you suck', 'Player X is God and if you think otherwise you suck' rhetoric that often peforates the board.

 

I don't know how often you spend on the board, but the former OFTEN times IS the NOVELTY on the board.

 

 

You're right, I apologize. I am just baffled at people saying a player sucks when its been one game (or a HUGE sample of 18 games). My frustration was misguided- so my bad. I guess I am just speaking from the perspective of a football player both in hs and at the D-I AA level who was in awe of Bush.

[NAn 39]

You're right, I apologize. I am just baffled at people saying a player sucks when its been one game (or a HUGE sample of 18 games). My frustration was misguided- so my bad. I guess I am just speaking from the perspective of a football player both in hs and at the D-I AA level who was in awe of Bush.

 

Cool man.

 

And believe me, those that are ready to consider ANY player a bust or a stud after one game annoy me to...wasn't intention of thread.

 

Actually like that there's so much interest so as season progresses, we can continue the debate.