Can I ask a political question

[itsjjw 1]

Why are people against partitioning Iraq? I makes sense to me, kinda. I mean we let europe break up didn't we?

[Voltaire 5,538]

It does.

 

But we've already installed a government there, no matter how fragile or effective. We have no right to divide it anymore. Besides if they divide, the Sunnis live on the 1/3 of Iraq with no oil. Not that I focking care in the slightest, but they probably do.

[hoytdwow 202]

itsatip that Balkanization

[Brad GLuckman 519]

Also if we give the Kurds their own country or state or whatever..we have to be worried about the kurds in Turkey getting pissed off and starting a revolution up there, so they can get their own too.

[akaoni 0]

Not to mention the situation with the Kurds. They are the faction that is most friendly to US policy in Iraq, but there are serious problems with giving them their own country. US ally and NATO member Turkey is violently opposed to this as it will likely spur Turkish Kurds to fight for independence...

 

 

 

edit: beat me to the punch

[Mungwater 601]

because someone from the other party suggested it, it can't be a good idea.

 

Tribes run that country, thats who should be deciding it.

[Evil number 0]

Why are people against partitioning Iraq? I makes sense to me, kinda. I mean we let europe break up didn't we?

 

It kind of makes sense since Iraq's borders are just lines drawn up by the British years ago. Obviously the oil fields would be the biggest problem.

 

I know Turkey is worried about an independent Kurdish sector because they think it would result in the Kurds in Turkey looking to break off. So it might result in conflict there.

 

I think the US is also worried about the Shiite area joining Iran.

 

The US also likes to have a bigger more powerful Iraq to keep Iran in check. If Iraq was split up then Iran would have an easier time moving in.

 

Blame the Brits for the whole mess.

[wiffleball 4,799]

it's funny, I was just thinking about this issue this morning. One the one hand, the Iraqis will tell you in one conversation that Iraq is a bastardaziation created by WW2 imperialists who just drew random lines on the map without respect to tribal or ethnic segregations that had occured for decades.

 

On the other hand, when you talk about partioning today, they get all ticked off. While there's no one overarching answer, two of the biggest reasons are oil revenue & hatred. Everyone thinks they're going to get screwed out of oil money taht goes to groups they hate. The big clan there thinks that majority rules and THEY should get all the oil $, the little clan (Shia/Sunni - can never remember who's what) think they're going to get screwed because they're smaller.

 

And then there's the Kurds, and as stated, Turkey doesn't want the Kurds to have their own country.

 

Months ago, I remember listening to an interview of several Iraqis from both sides. In the end what they said is that we just don't 'get' their culture. This isn't about sharing, this is about winning. They have hated each other for so long that the idea of the other side getting anything is abhorent to them. Here, we're all about democracy and compromise, but the Arab culture is all about 'to the victor go the spoils'.

 

Not sure we can ever really change that mindset.

[Evil number 0]

it's funny, I was just thinking about this issue this morning. One the one hand, the Iraqis will tell you in one conversation that Iraq is a bastardaziation created by WW2 imperialists who just drew random lines on the map without respect to tribal or ethnic segregations that had occured for decades.

 

On the other hand, when you talk about partioning today, they get all ticked off. While there's no one overarching answer, two of the biggest reasons are oil revenue & hatred. Everyone thinks they're going to get screwed out of oil money taht goes to groups they hate. The big clan there thinks that majority rules and THEY should get all the oil $, the little clan (Shia/Sunni - can never remember who's what) think they're going to get screwed because they're smaller.

 

And then there's the Kurds, and as stated, Turkey doesn't want the Kurds to have their own country.

 

Months ago, I remember listening to an interview of several Iraqis from both sides. In the end what they said is that we just don't 'get' their culture. This isn't about sharing, this is about winning. They have hated each other for so long that the idea of the other side getting anything is abhorent to them. Here, we're all about democracy and compromise, but the Arab culture is all about 'to the victor go the spoils'.

 

Not sure we can ever really change that mindset.

 

If thats the way they feel. Then we should just get out and let them fight it out between themselves.

[Mungwater 601]

We can't change their mindset wiff.

 

They've been looting caravans since before christ, big guys win.

 

I don't understand it, but thats the way they live.

[itsjjw 1]

I mean if the Sunni's get screwed on the oil, why can't they just merge with Saudi Arabia? If the Shites want to merge with Iran, why not let them, its their business? If the Kurds in Turkey want to join with the Kurds in Iraq, why is its Turkey's business, isn't what they are doing in Cyprus making them hypocrits?

[Brad GLuckman 519]

I mean if the Sunni's get screwed on the oil, why can't they just merge with Saudi Arabia? If the Shites want to merge with Iran, why not let them, its their business? If the Kurds in Turkey want to join with the Kurds in Iraq, why is its Turkey's business, isn't what they are doing in Cyprus making them hypocrits?

 

Who says the Saudi's want the Sunni's to join them...what do they get out of it...certainly not oil

Bush doesn't want the Shiites joining with Iran...then Iran has even more control of the world's oil

Turkey is worried about their own Kurds wanting their own Kurdish state, not joining the one in Iraq.

[itsjjw 1]

Who says the Saudi's want the Sunni's to join them...what do they get out of it...certainly not oil

Bush doesn't want the Shiites joining with Iran...then Iran has even more control of the world's oil

Turkey is worried about their own Kurds wanting their own Kurdish state, not joining the one in Iraq.

But why should what Bush want reflect on the lives of these peoples? Wouldn't that be democracy in action? Isn't that what he says he wants there?

 

I mean I understand the oil stuff, but why are we still buying oil from Iran anyways?

[Brad GLuckman 519]

But why should what Bush want reflect on the lives of these peoples? Wouldn't that be democracy in action? Isn't that what he says he wants there?

 

I mean I understand the oil stuff, but why are we still buying oil from Iran anyways?

 

Well, America is invested in Iraq, like it or not. He has to be concerned with how the country progresses. Splitting it up could result in just more problems...someone else said it earlier...the main problem would be one of the main problems we face right now...what to do with oil revenues. Everyone wants their share, some want all of it...when splitting up the country you'd still have to have a plan for oil revenues. It's difficult to find one everyone can agree on...unfortunately when they don't agree they blow $hit up

[Mungwater 601]

But why should what Bush want reflect on the lives of these peoples? Wouldn't that be democracy in action? Isn't that what he says he wants there?

 

I mean I understand the oil stuff, but why are we still buying oil from Iran anyways?

 

Bush's goals have always been to secure the borders and secure a government. The changes at the tactical and operational level of war have made that impossible, but he has been pretty consistant on what his goals were over there.

 

Democracy won't work there, like was said before, its a tribal country. Democracy with three branches of government works for us, but most agree that it won't work there.

[NorthernVike 2,113]

But why should what Bush want reflect on the lives of these peoples? Wouldn't that be democracy in action? Isn't that what he says he wants there?

 

I mean I understand the oil stuff, but why are we still buying oil from Iran anyways?

 

 

I'm not so sure the USA buys much if any oil directly from Iran. I believe they sell most of their oil to the rest of the world. The US gets most of its oil from Mexico, Venesuea(sp?), Canada and our own production.

[striker1z 0]

I mean if the Sunni's get screwed on the oil, why can't they just merge with Saudi Arabia? If the Shites want to merge with Iran, why not let them, its their business? If the Kurds in Turkey want to join with the Kurds in Iraq, why is its Turkey's business, isn't what they are doing in Cyprus making them hypocrits?

 

 

The problem is that Turkey is afraid that the Kurds will want to form their own country in part of what is now Turkey - not that the Kurds will want to move into Kurdistan - or whatever the Kurds in Iraq would call their new country.

 

Oh, and as probably the only person from Cyprus on this bored I'll add my 2 cents saying that Turkey didn't invade Cyprus in order to have Turkish-Cypriots join up with mainland Turkey - they did it because (1) Greek Cypriots wanted to join up with Greece, and Turkey was having none of that because (2) Turkey would be vulnerable to attack from the south [back then Greece and Turkey were on very hostile terms]. Of course, weapons of this day and age mean that Turkey is really vulnerable from pretty much anywhere, but at this point, the 2 sides cannot agree on a compromise/solution.

 

I'l also add that the Turkish-occupied side of Cyprus has been such a drain to Turkey economically (never mind politically with the EU), and really any country/region trying to join up to another will go through the same thing (remember the West & East Germany unification).

[kutulu 1,727]

Kurds is a funny word. I think it's cause it rhymes with turds.

[akaoni 0]

We can't change their mindset wiff.

 

They've been looting caravans since before christ, big guys win.

 

I don't understand it, but thats the way they live.

 

Yeah, because the big guys never win in the US right?

[SUXBNME 1,640]

Kurds is a funny word. I think it's cause it rhymes with turds.

Very good political insight on your part