I think Iraq War someday may not seem too bad

[jets24 6]

I understand the entire "Bush is an idiot, liar, etc." Believe me, it's hard to disagree. However, there are some things happening that he should be given a bit of credit and he's getting none. They are close to some type of date/removal agreement. Millions have voted and will continue to vote. Women have shown that they deserved to be treated equally. Democracy make just make its way there yet. We should have a good ally in the Middle East. Kids have schools that never had schools. The number of American deaths per month has gone done considerably and (you never ever hear that on the news.) You realize that the last four months will be an average somewhere around 20 deaths per month? Just last year this time, they averaged over 70 per month. We are succeeding. The surge worked. Think about it? When is the last time you heard about a suicide bombing over there, taking out American Soldiers? I know there are the typical things, etc. But they went from lots of suicide bombers, then they moved to some women because they ran out of me to die for Allah, then if memory serves me right, they used downs syndrome/retarded suicide bombers on one of the last ones. We have made a dent on terrorism. Period.

[DAVID RUFFIN 1]

I think Iraq War someday may not seem too bad

truly....

[jets24 6]

I think Iraq War someday may not seem too bad

truly....

[MTSkiBum 1,594]

I dont think the iraq war is a terrible thing, if we stick it out and finish the job. The japanese hated us for over a decade, but eventually turned around after a long period of occupation. I think we should try our hardest to turn them into a middle east japan.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

I understand the entire "Bush is an idiot, liar, etc." Believe me, it's hard to disagree. However, there are some things happening that he should be given a bit of credit and he's getting none. They are close to some type of date/removal agreement. Millions have voted and will continue to vote. Women have shown that they deserved to be treated equally. Democracy make just make its way there yet. We should have a good ally in the Middle East. Kids have schools that never had schools. The number of American deaths per month has gone done considerably and (you never ever hear that on the news.) You realize that the last four months will be an average somewhere around 20 deaths per month? Just last year this time, they averaged over 70 per month. We are succeeding. The surge worked. Think about it? When is the last time you heard about a suicide bombing over there, taking out American Soldiers? I know there are the typical things, etc. But they went from lots of suicide bombers, then they moved to some women because they ran out of me to die for Allah, then if memory serves me right, they used downs syndrome/retarded suicide bombers on one of the last ones. We have made a dent on terrorism. Period.

 

The entire problem I have with the war is that there was never a stated objective. We went in to remove Sadaam. Fine. We accomplished that years ago. But nobody ever said that the idea was to establish a Jeffersonian democracy in Iraq. The reason they never said this... because its freaking stupid, and won't work. In fact, Bush outright said that he was opposed to nation building, yet here we are, trying to build a nation.

 

The McCain argument that the surge worked is bull. Yes, American deaths are down. This is good news, obviously. But has the surge created a stable regieme in Iraq? No. Will it ever? No. If preventing American deaths is the goal, then hell, pack it up and come home.

 

The fact is this democratic experiment in Iraq is doomed to fail. Why? Because Iraq is a makeshift country cobbled together by the British years ago, ignoring the whole Kurd/Sunni/Shiite problem. Honestly, does anyone really thing a Western style democratic government will exist in Iraq 10 years from now, absent our soldiers being there to enforce its will? What happens when the populace elects a radical Muslim cleric that is not palatable to us? What happens when another military strongman overthrows the feeble thing we have created?

 

This is another example of the West blindly and arrogantly imposing its values on a cultture that it barely understands. Democracy barely works here, and that is with approximately 800 years of glacial Anglo-American baby steps to get where we are today. We see the fundimental Muslim sharia law, and find it repugnant. We cannot understand why they want it that way. We want to free the women over there from oppression, yet here in Nashville I see women everyday walking down the street in a full burqua. THEIR CULTURE IS HOW THEY WANT IT!!

 

If Sadaam was such a threat (he wasn't, and there are dozens as bad or worse) and Al Quaeda in Iraq was such a threat (no evidence of that whatsoever) we should have invaded, overthrown him, set up our own puppet dictator (like we had with the Shah in Iran way back) and got the hell out. Or we should have told the Turks to go to hell, and partitioned the country into Sunnistan, Shiistan, and Kurdisan... three weak states that pose a threat to nobody but each other. This experiment in democracy in the desert is maddness (don't even try to compare Japan and Germany in WWII to present day Iraq... Its just apples and oranges).

[wiffleball 4,643]

Women have shown that they deserved to be treated equally. Democracy make just make its way there yet.

 

...And the ignorance just shines through. We created a government that allows Sharia law. "Honor Killings" of women have skyrocketed - among all the other things we associate with radical extremist Islam. Congratulations. Educate yourself please.

 

 

Having said that, Bush doesn't deserve credit for diick. Most of the ideas that the Original 10 sets of Generals (Shalikashvili ring a bell?) floated are the ones that are being implemented now. - But they were completely ignored - in fact - Generals put out to pasture for introducing such ideas - BY Bush. We have lost literally hundreds of years of senior level experience because of that. The MILITARY deserves credit for snatching "success" our of the jaws of failure. And like 'Nam, D-Day and every other CF "brilliantly planned" ahead of time, it was the soldiers who got it done DESPITE their numbnutz civilian leaders.

 

GB US Military - getting it done no matter what.

 

[wiffleball 4,643]

The entire problem I have with the war is that there was never a stated objective.

 

 

Ari Fleischer, White House Press Secy

Press Briefing

April 10, 2003

But make no mistake -- as I said earlier -- we have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was about and it is about. And we have high confidence it will be found.

 

Read Bush's address to the country re: Why we need to Iraq. It was all about WMD. Read Colin Powell's address to UN - it was all about WMD. The bolded part is very clear as to what our objective was. But you're right, they didn't think about the after-effect once WMD were found and "regime change" occurred.

[Chargersin08 0]

No war is a good thing. Are you really that daft?

[Chargersin08 0]

Ari Fleischer, White House Press Secy

Press Briefing

April 10, 2003

But make no mistake -- as I said earlier -- we have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is a made up dumb ###### reason. And we have high confidence it will be found.

 

Read Bush's address to the country re: Why we need to Iraq. It was all about WMD. Read Colin Powell's address to UN - it was all about WMD. The bolded part is very clear as to what our objective was. But you're right, they didn't think about the after-effect once WMD were found and "regime change" occurred.

[DaWeffa 0]

I dont think the iraq war is a terrible thing, if we stick it out and finish the job. The japanese hated us for over a decade, but eventually turned around after a long period of occupation. I think we should try our hardest to turn them into a middle east japan.

 

dude the japanese didnt hate us....they were scared of us!!! we flattened their cities!!! they surrendered......those dudes over there didnt want shiat to do with weapons of anykind after we dropped the bombs on them...besides they are getting their economical revenge....

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

Ari Fleischer, White House Press Secy

Press Briefing

April 10, 2003

But make no mistake -- as I said earlier -- we have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was about and it is about. And we have high confidence it will be found.

 

Read Bush's address to the country re: Why we need to Iraq. It was all about WMD. Read Colin Powell's address to UN - it was all about WMD. The bolded part is very clear as to what our objective was. But you're right, they didn't think about the after-effect once WMD were found and "regime change" occurred.

 

You're exactly right. Our military has been shooting at a moving target for years. First it was WMD's. Oops. Then "Al Quaeda in Iraq". Never really existed, at least until we went in. Then it became "free the noble Iraqi people from Sadaam." Now its "Spread Democracy."

 

I mean, its amazing! I was there for all this, but I have no idea how it happened!

 

And it drives me crazy to hear McCain and republican hawk types say "we have to win" or "Victory with honor." What the hell does win mean? How, realistically, do we get there? I don't think for one minute John McCain believes that this Iraqi democracy has a chance in hell of working. So what constitutes Victory? This is the same stupid prideful rationalle that turned Viet Nam into a decade long clusterfock.

 

I am with Obama. Let's be a big boy and step up, admit we made a dreadfully stupid mistake, and do our best to fix it, with the rest of the world's help if possible.

[wiffleball 4,643]

I think this thread is what pixxes me off most - just the ignorance and the spin:

 

 

Look, If I said you have to cut off your leg because you were bit by a spider and I started to do so - even though you hadn't been bit by a spider - and your leg was a bloody tattered mess. - THEN some ER doc turned around and fixed your leg. - You wouldn't give me credit for your miraculous recovery. You'd think I was an idiot and praise the doc for bailing you out. Yet, the former is essentially what this thread asserts.

[jets24 6]

...And the ignorance just shines through. We created a government that allows Sharia law. "Honor Killings" of women have skyrocketed - among all the other things we associate with radical extremist Islam. Congratulations. Educate yourself please.

Having said that, Bush doesn't deserve credit for diick. Most of the ideas that the Original 10 sets of Generals (Shalikashvili ring a bell?) floated are the ones that are being implemented now. - But they were completely ignored - in fact - Generals put out to pasture for introducing such ideas - BY Bush. We have lost literally hundreds of years of senior level experience because of that. The MILITARY deserves credit for snatching "success" our of the jaws of failure. And like 'Nam, D-Day and every other CF "brilliantly planned" ahead of time, it was the soldiers who got it done DESPITE their numbnutz civilian leaders.

 

GB US Military - getting it done no matter what.

 

 

 

You have a link to back up your "honor killings of women have skyrocketed" comment? Or are you just going to assume that people believe it because the great Wiffle said it?

[coyote-kid 0]

My biggest argument in all of this has been one simple question for you all!

 

Does anyone of you really care about an Iraqi or anybody from theat part of the world?

 

 

We went over there and made many more enemies, because we detroyed there homes and killed many innocent people.

Now there offspring look at us with hate.

Can you blame them?

 

How would feel if someone came in your backyard and killed your mother, father, wife and kids?

You just might strap on a suicide vest, right?

 

Answer truthfully!!

 

By the way, that part of the world is worse off now that we did our dirt there.

Again, right or wrong?

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

My biggest argument in all of this has been one simple question for you all!

 

Does anyone of you really care about an Iraqi or anybody from theat part of the world?

We went over there and made many more enemies, because we detroyed there homes and killed many innocent people.

Now there offspring look at us with hate.

Can you blame them?

 

How would feel if someone came in your backyard and killed your mother, father, wife and kids?

You just might strap on a suicide vest, right?

 

Answer truthfully!!

 

By the way, that part of the world is worse off now that we did our dirt there.

Again, right or wrong?

 

You are absolutely right. We've (the west) been screwing with those people since... oh, before christ, and we wonder why they hate us.

 

And no, other than the fact that the sit on the stuff that makes my car go, I don't give a fock what those people do to each other. They can honor kill and sodomize each other in their sandhole till the end of time for all I care. That's why It pisses me off to hear Bush or McCain talk about "freedom for the noble Iraqi people"... Like they give a fock!

[pingpong 0]

This country's politics are doomed until bitter folks can staop bringing up these old and tired issues, and start presenting solutions to fix the problems. Who the fock cares if we found WMDs anymore or not. The fact is, we are in Iraq. How do we get out, and plant a seed of democracy?

Countdown until this thread spins back to the election of 2000 and how 'Bush stole it'.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

This country's politics are doomed until bitter folks can staop bringing up these old and tired issues, and start presenting solutions to fix the problems. Who the fock cares if we found WMDs anymore or not. The fact is, we are in Iraq. How do we get out, and plant a seed of democracy?

Countdown until this thread spins back to the election of 2000 and how 'Bush stole it'.

 

Simple.

 

As to your first question, I'm told the military has a sheetload of big transport planes. You put the troops on 'em and fly them home.

 

As to the second question, we don't. That ain't ever gonna happen, and to continue trying to "grow democracy" is just an ongoing pissing away of money and lives.

 

Oh, and how Bush lied to get us into war is still relevant, as he seems to be trying his damndest to pull us into another one in Iran.

[pingpong 0]

Simple.

 

As to your first question, I'm told the military has a sheetload of big transport planes. You put the troops on 'em and fly them home.

 

As to the second question, we don't. That ain't ever gonna happen, and to continue trying to "grow democracy" is just an ongoing pissing away of money and lives.

 

Oh, and how Bush lied to get us into war is still relevant, as he seems to be trying his damndest to pull us into another one in Iran.

You remind me of exactly how I viewed the world when I was just out of college. LOL.

It's not that simple. Regardless of whether you agree with why or how we got in the war, you can't just pull out. Even Obama is finally starting to realize that. If we just up 'n leave, who controls Iraq? If you don't care, you should. We no longer have Saddam, to iron fist the country into his will. A will that was not directed by religious fanatics. Now, we have these crazies, who will first kill everyone around them that does not share the exact same strand of religion as they do, and then will slowly branch out to neighbirs and other countries. Since we no longer have King Thug to keep them in place, we need to ensure a solution.

Regarding the second point, I totally acree that the American public was improperly prepared for the aftermath of taking out Saddam. Americans today want a quick fix, and have little patience. We should have been told that we will need to stay there for a long time. McCain is getting killed because he said 100 years if need be. The publice should have been prepared for that at the start. Very poor planning, very poor communication on the current administration. However, throwing up our arms and quitting...not American.

 

Finally, Iran will be a major issue for the next president. If you want to try diplomacy, shake their hands, be nice to them, and 'hope' they will not continue to develop nukes and use them, then Obama is your man. If you want a country to realize that disarming is a better option than pissing us off (see Lebanon), you would want to elect a 'maverick' that instills a little fear in Iran. There is no way we will simply invade Iran, but you certainly want them to think it is still an option.

[kpbuckeye 2]

You're exactly right. Our military has been shooting at a moving target for years. First it was WMD's. Oops. Then "Al Quaeda in Iraq". Never really existed, at least until we went in. Then it became "free the noble Iraqi people from Sadaam." Now its "Spread Democracy."

 

I mean, its amazing! I was there for all this, but I have no idea how it happened!

 

And it drives me crazy to hear McCain and republican hawk types say "we have to win" or "Victory with honor." What the hell does win mean? How, realistically, do we get there? I don't think for one minute John McCain believes that this Iraqi democracy has a chance in hell of working. So what constitutes Victory? This is the same stupid prideful rationalle that turned Viet Nam into a decade long clusterfock.

 

I am with Obama. Let's be a big boy and step up, admit we made a dreadfully stupid mistake, and do our best to fix it, with the rest of the world's help if possible.

 

 

Yep, we should have never went in. We should have let them get away with those 17 resolutions.

 

That would set a great precedent for the world to follow.

 

nevermind the cease fire agreements from GWI which this is all rooted in, they should not count.

 

 

 

 

a history lesson would do you well dumarse.

[Isotopes 1]

This country's politics are doomed until bitter folks can staop bringing up these old and tired issues, and start presenting solutions to fix the problems. Who the fock cares if we found WMDs anymore or not. The fact is, we are in Iraq. How do we get out, and plant a seed of democracy?

Countdown until this thread spins back to the election of 2000 and how 'Bush stole it'.

 

This country's politics are doomed until bitter folks can hold politicians accountable for their words and actions. Instead we make excuses for them and say that is old news.

[Chargersin08 0]

bump for ignorance.

[jets24 6]

bump for ignorance.

 

Fock off. I stand by my statements even more so today.

[TheBlade 3]

The entire problem I have with the war is that there was never a stated objective. We went in to remove Sadaam. Fine. We accomplished that years ago. But nobody ever said that the idea was to establish a Jeffersonian democracy in Iraq. The reason they never said this... because its freaking stupid, and won't work. In fact, Bush outright said that he was opposed to nation building, yet here we are, trying to build a nation.

 

The McCain argument that the surge worked is bull. Yes, American deaths are down. This is good news, obviously. But has the surge created a stable regieme in Iraq? No. Will it ever? No. If preventing American deaths is the goal, then hell, pack it up and come home.

 

The fact is this democratic experiment in Iraq is doomed to fail. Why? Because Iraq is a makeshift country cobbled together by the British years ago, ignoring the whole Kurd/Sunni/Shiite problem. Honestly, does anyone really thing a Western style democratic government will exist in Iraq 10 years from now, absent our soldiers being there to enforce its will? What happens when the populace elects a radical Muslim cleric that is not palatable to us? What happens when another military strongman overthrows the feeble thing we have created?

 

This is another example of the West blindly and arrogantly imposing its values on a cultture that it barely understands. Democracy barely works here, and that is with approximately 800 years of glacial Anglo-American baby steps to get where we are today. We see the fundimental Muslim sharia law, and find it repugnant. We cannot understand why they want it that way. We want to free the women over there from oppression, yet here in Nashville I see women everyday walking down the street in a full burqua. THEIR CULTURE IS HOW THEY WANT IT!!

 

If Sadaam was such a threat (he wasn't, and there are dozens as bad or worse) and Al Quaeda in Iraq was such a threat (no evidence of that whatsoever) we should have invaded, overthrown him, set up our own puppet dictator (like we had with the Shah in Iran way back) and got the hell out. Or we should have told the Turks to go to hell, and partitioned the country into Sunnistan, Shiistan, and Kurdisan... three weak states that pose a threat to nobody but each other. This experiment in democracy in the desert is maddness (don't even try to compare Japan and Germany in WWII to present day Iraq... Its just apples and oranges).

I generally don't agree with you on political issues as I'm more conservative than you, but I think you nailed it spot on here.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

bump for ignorance.

 

 

Your ignorance is well documented. No need for you to bump threads to confirm it.

[thetxstang 0]

Your ignorance is well documented. No need for you to bump threads to confirm it.

 

Of course you have nothing to add to his thread other than name calling. Gee, what a surprise.

 

[Recliner Pilot 61]

Of course you have nothing to add to his thread other than name calling. Gee, what a surprise.

 

 

Your post sure added a lot to the thread.

 

Irony, CATCH IT!

[donhaas 18]

Who the fock cares if we found WMDs anymore or not.

 

--Dead soldiers' wives, husbands, sons and daughters....family and friends...

--People who believe that the $700 billion wasted on the quagmire could be better spent on hard working but struggling everyday Americans

 

 

HTH!

[FlaHawker 24]

--People who believe that the $700 billion wasted on the quagmire could be better spent on hard working but struggling everyday Americans

Yeah because the government would have spent that money on hardworking Americans. Ignorance is so fockin bliss

[Lionsjunkie 1]

The entire problem I have with the war is that there was never a stated objective. We went in to remove Sadaam. Fine. We accomplished that years ago. But nobody ever said that the idea was to establish a Jeffersonian democracy in Iraq. The reason they never said this... because its freaking stupid, and won't work. In fact, Bush outright said that he was opposed to nation building, yet here we are, trying to build a nation.

 

The McCain argument that the surge worked is bull. Yes, American deaths are down. This is good news, obviously. But has the surge created a stable regieme in Iraq? No. Will it ever? No. If preventing American deaths is the goal, then hell, pack it up and come home.

 

The fact is this democratic experiment in Iraq is doomed to fail. Why? Because Iraq is a makeshift country cobbled together by the British years ago, ignoring the whole Kurd/Sunni/Shiite problem. Honestly, does anyone really thing a Western style democratic government will exist in Iraq 10 years from now, absent our soldiers being there to enforce its will? What happens when the populace elects a radical Muslim cleric that is not palatable to us? What happens when another military strongman overthrows the feeble thing we have created?

 

This is another example of the West blindly and arrogantly imposing its values on a cultture that it barely understands. Democracy barely works here, and that is with approximately 800 years of glacial Anglo-American baby steps to get where we are today. We see the fundimental Muslim sharia law, and find it repugnant. We cannot understand why they want it that way. We want to free the women over there from oppression, yet here in Nashville I see women everyday walking down the street in a full burqua. THEIR CULTURE IS HOW THEY WANT IT!!

 

If Sadaam was such a threat (he wasn't, and there are dozens as bad or worse) and Al Quaeda in Iraq was such a threat (no evidence of that whatsoever) we should have invaded, overthrown him, set up our own puppet dictator (like we had with the Shah in Iran way back) and got the hell out. Or we should have told the Turks to go to hell, and partitioned the country into Sunnistan, Shiistan, and Kurdisan... three weak states that pose a threat to nobody but each other. This experiment in democracy in the desert is maddness (don't even try to compare Japan and Germany in WWII to present day Iraq... Its just apples and oranges).

 

 

It's been a big waste of time, money and lives

[Recliner Pilot 61]

 

It's been a big waste of time, money and lives

 

FUKKING UNITED NATIONS AND THEIR 17 RESOLUTIONS!

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

Bottom line: History will judge.

 

If Iraq becomes a stable, westernized democracy, the first of its kind in the Muslim world, and is a good U.S. ally in the region, then the war worked, and was a good idea, even if that was not the original goal.

 

If at some point, the democratic government is overthrown for either a military strongman or a fundamentalist islamic regeime that hates America and Israel, then the war was a collossal fockup, and a tragic waste of treasure and lives.

 

 

 

Now, that said, which one do you think is more likely?

[edjr 5,567]

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

[wiffleball 4,643]

Women have shown that they deserved to be treated equally

 

If by equally, you mean, they are equally as likely to be killed in an honor killing as their friends in Afghanistan, then sure. Yes, the thing that makes me MOST proud of our involvement in installing governments in each of those countries is that in both countries, it's now legal to kill young girls who are raped by a family member. It's legal to kill someone for apostacy - converting from Islam.

 

I mean, for focks sake, if we're going to go to all the trouble and expense of setting up a government, couldn't we at LEAST have some minimum standards of decency that we require?

[TheBlade 3]

If by equally, you mean, they are equally as likely to be killed in an honor killing as their friends in Afghanistan, then sure. Yes, the thing that makes me MOST proud of our involvement in installing governments in each of those countries is that in both countries, it's now legal to kill young girls who are raped by a family member. It's legal to kill someone for apostacy - converting from Islam.

 

I mean, for focks sake, if we're going to go to all the trouble and expense of setting up a government, couldn't we at LEAST have some minimum standards of decency that we require?

C'mon, we're supposed to every other country's big brother, but not actually TELL them how to run the country.

 

FWIW, I have thought for many, many years that the US should be much more isolationist when it comes to foreign policy. Do our part in the world trade arena, but stay out of everybody else's business, unless it gets to the point of the US being forced to step in because of severe human rights violations on a grand scale (e.g. Hitler and the Holocaust).

[wiffleball 4,643]

1) C'mon, we're supposed to every other country's big brother, but not actually TELL them how to run the country.

 

2) FWIW, I have thought for many, many years that the US should be much more isolationist when it comes to foreign policy. Do our part in the world trade arena, but stay out of everybody else's business, unless it gets to the point of the US being forced to step in because of severe human rights violations on a grand scale (e.g. Hitler and the Holocaust).

 

1) Might want to read up on the limitations we put on Japan and other countries.

 

2) Totally agree.

[TheBlade 3]

1) Might want to read up on the limitations we put on Japan and other countries.

 

2) Totally agree.

I was being sarcastic there. Obviously, it didn't come across that way.

[Chargersin08 0]

Fock off. I stand by my statements even more so today.

Doesn't make them any less ignorant.

[itsbigmoni 1]

One thing i don't get is how white europeans drew up all these borders without even knowing what the hell they were doing. My family is from Punjab, a state in northwestern India. When the british left, they drew up the borders for pakistan and india. The state my family is from got split in half. My culture/religion/ethnicity/looks have much more in common with pakistani's than some random ass south indian gujrati (think people with the last name patel), yet we got stuck with them. Pakistan and India have been fighting over another region, Kashmir, ever since the border was drawn up.

 

Same thing with Iraq. Why are the kurds thrown in with iraq? It makes no sense to me. Thats why in areas where the borders are drawn by foreigners, people go by their own state or ethnicity. When people ask where i'm from, i don't say india, i say i'm punjabi (well i say, i'm american but then they ask where my family is from). If you asked a kurd where he's from, he'd say i'm kurd, not iraqi. Hows that country going to have harmony when people don't put the country first. In america, we don't say, i'm a yankee or nebraskan, we say, i'm american.

[Voltaire 4,562]

In america, we don't say, i'm a yankee or nebraskan, we say, i'm american.

 

It's better for Texans to identify themselves as Texans first. It cushions the blow when they embarass themselves.