The most "transparent"...make that "secretive" Administration in history.

[Frank M 181]

Now your just being ridiculous. You clearly do not know what you are talking about. I should have known better than to get anything serious out of the likes of you in the first place. Thought I would at least give it a try. Very typical for a liberal. NOTHING else matters, but yourselves. Fock anything and everything else, including reason.

 

It's called sarcasm, you idiot. You know, making fun of people because of their outrageous viewpoints.

 

But your right about one thing. What you, RP, and others like you think doesn't matter. That much is true.

[LaChup 238]

Read my purple lips, I'm a communist.

[Greedo 13]

Obama campaigned on two things: I will fix healthcare, and fix "the worst economy since the Great Depression"

 

I would advise you to read the CBO analysis of the Senate health care bill, which is non-partisan.

 

Just because healthcare isn't fixed to the GOPs, or your, liking, doesn't mean it hasn't been fixed. The GOP had no problem with that prescription drug bill, and that was a far worse deficit turd than this budget-positive bill. The deficit complaining by the GOP is disingenuous.

 

As for fixing the economy, it's on its way. Again, he did not promise to fix it in a way that pleased the 45% of people that voted against him. But I suspect he's going to have a convincing story to tell, and in truth TARP and some of the things the Bush administration did economically will be vindicated by history as well, I suspect.

[Strike 5,846]

I would advise you to read the CBO analysis of the Senate health care bill, which is non-partisan.

 

Just because healthcare isn't fixed to the GOPs, or your, liking, doesn't mean it hasn't been fixed. The GOP had no problem with that prescription drug bill, and that was a far worse deficit turd than this budget-positive bill. The deficit complaining by the GOP is disingenuous.

 

As for fixing the economy, it's on its way. Again, he did not promise to fix it in a way that pleased the 45% of people that voted against him. But I suspect he's going to have a convincing story to tell, and in truth TARP and some of the things the Bush administration did economically will be vindicated by history as well, I suspect.

 

The CBO estimate is based upon accounting tricks and assumptions that congress put in to the bill that won't ever happen, such as a 21% reduction in medicare/medicaid payments to doctors. Of course, that deduction is supposed to kick in every year and every year congress passes an exemption to it because they know that if they reduce rates even more from the current levels more and more doctors will stop accepting medicare/medicaid patients. The reality is that this bill will NOT reduce costs.

[Frank M 181]

The CBO estimate is based upon accounting tricks and assumptions that congress put in to the bill that won't ever happen, such as a 21% reduction in medicare/medicaid payments to doctors. Of course, that deduction is supposed to kick in every year and every year congress passes an exemption to it because they know that if they reduce rates even more from the current levels more and more doctors will stop accepting medicare/medicaid patients. The reality is that this bill will NOT reduce costs.

 

 

I love how the Congressional Budget Office estimates are wrong, but a guy on a message board is right.

 

I give the Reality According to Strike a big .

[Recliner Pilot 61]

How has the cho scored a bill nobody has read? The fukker is still locked up in Harry Reid?s office for all we know.

[Rusty Syringes 478]

I'm not all that worried if this stinking pile of poo passes.

 

The Republicans will retake Congress next year, and Obama will be packing up his belongings in 2012.

 

[Strike 5,846]

I love how the Congressional Budget Office estimates are wrong, but a guy on a message board is right.

 

I give the Reality According to Strike a big .

 

The CBO's estimate is correct given the parameters and assumptions in the bill they were given to work with. However, one needs to look beyond that at REALITY. Let me ask you this. Are you familiar with the "doctor fix" that congress has to pass every year? Do you think they will stop passing this starting next year? The health care bill assumes it's not there. This is a 200 BILLION dollar differential. They put the doctor fix in to a separate bill so it wouldn't be part of the budget estimates for the health care bill. When taken together, the two bills would result in an 89 BILLION INCREASE to the budget deficit over the next ten years, as opposed to saving us money as is being reported for the health care reform bill alone. But that estimate of the two bills taken together is from a clearly partisan body, the CBO.

[Frank M 181]

The CBO's estimate is correct given the parameters and assumptions in the bill they were given to work with. However, one needs to look beyond that at REALITY. Let me ask you this. Are you familiar with the "doctor fix" that congress has to pass every year? Do you think they will stop passing this starting next year? The health care bill assumes it's not there. This is a 200 BILLION dollar differential. They put the doctor fix in to a separate bill so it wouldn't be part of the budget estimates for the health care bill. When taken together, the two bills would result in an 89 BILLION INCREASE to the budget deficit over the next ten years, as opposed to saving us money as is being reported for the health care reform bill alone. But that estimate of the two bills taken together is from a clearly partisan body, the CBO.

 

 

I'll take the CBO estimate over your opinion.

[Strike 5,846]

I'll take the CBO estimate over your opinion.

 

Not my opinion. I used the CBO's own numbers. I asked you a couple of simple questions. It's telling that you won't answer them. Are you familiar with the doctor fix and do you think Congress is going to stop passing it? Too bad simpletons such as yourself are so easily fooled by the lies they're being told.

[Frank M 181]

Not my opinion. I used the CBO's own numbers. I asked you a couple of simple questions. It's telling that you won't answer them. Are you familiar with the doctor fix and do you think Congress is going to stop passing it? Too bad simpletons such as yourself are so easily fooled by the lies they're being told.

 

No, I'm not familiar with each and every thing in the bill because I'm not persevorating over it like you are. However, I feel quite confident that the CBO knows more than you.

[NewbieJr 541]

However, I feel quite confident that the CBO knows more than you.

Yeah, just a little, I would think.

[Strike 5,846]

No, I'm not familiar with each and every thing in the bill because I'm not persevorating over it like you are. However, I feel quite confident that the CBO knows more than you.

 

It's not what's "in the bill." And it's easy enough to google. And again my numbers come directly from the CBO. So you're misinformed and ignorant, and happy about it. Welcome people to the new world where people such as Frank M and Newbie have a vote. Anyone wonder why this country is such a clusterfock right now?

[NewbieJr 541]

It's not what's "in the bill." And it's easy enough to google. And again my numbers come directly from the CBO. So you're misinformed and ignorant, and happy about it. Welcome people to the new world where people such as Frank M and Newbie have a vote. Anyone wonder why this country is such a clusterfock right now?

If it was up to you, only the dweebs who get brainwashed by Fox News would be allowed to vote. That would be awesome if we wanted guys like GW Bush running the country forever.

[Frank M 181]

It's not what's "in the bill." And it's easy enough to google. And again my numbers come directly from the CBO. So you're misinformed and ignorant, and happy about it. Welcome people to the new world where people such as Frank M and Newbie have a vote. Anyone wonder why this country is such a clusterfock right now?

 

 

What, are you suggesting we shouldn't allow people to vote who don't share your opinion?

 

That's mighty communist of you.

[Frank M 181]

It's not what's "in the bill." And it's easy enough to google. And again my numbers come directly from the CBO. So you're misinformed and ignorant, and happy about it. Welcome people to the new world where people such as Frank M and Newbie have a vote. Anyone wonder why this country is such a clusterfock right now?

 

What's the matter, Strike? Can't comprehend that someone might have a different opinion than you? That someone might find the notion of health care reform a good thing so they don't spend all their time worrying about it? That they may trust the process? That they can still support it even if it may cost them more?

 

I understand your worldview is very narrow, but it's still unfortunate that your mind is so closed to the idea that others may think differently than you. Health care reform will pass, and I'll support it and be glad they did it, and you can keep on wondering why nobody listens to Strike, if only people listened to Strike, the world will be a better place.

[Strike 5,846]

What's the matter, Strike? Can't comprehend that someone might have a different opinion than you? That someone might find the notion of health care reform a good thing so they don't spend all their time worrying about it? That they may trust the process? That they can still support it even if it may cost them more?

 

I understand your worldview is very narrow, but it's still unfortunate that your mind is so closed to the idea that others may think differently than you. Health care reform will pass, and I'll support it and be glad they did it, and you can keep on wondering why nobody listens to Strike, if only people listened to Strike, the world will be a better place.

 

It's not about a differing opinion. It's about the facts. And the CBO analysis' which I've already mentioned. Oh, and one of the facts is that I am IN FAVOR of health care reform. But this isn't health care reform. It addresses few if any of the things that are actually causing health care costs to skyrocket. If/when it passes we will have a health care system that is more dysfunctional than it is now but with more entitlements and, ultimately, higher taxes as this thing is going to cost a lot of money.

[Frank M 181]

It's not about a differing opinion. It's about the facts. And the CBO analysis' which I've already mentioned. Oh, and one of the facts is that I am IN FAVOR of health care reform. But this isn't health care reform. It addresses few if any of the things that are actually causing health care costs to skyrocket. If/when it passes we will have a health care system that is more dysfunctional than it is now but with more entitlements and, ultimately, higher taxes as this thing is going to cost a lot of money.

 

I think you have facts confused with predicting the future, since all I hear you saying is how bad things will be if this passes.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

So strike points out that to make the numbers work the Dems have taken huge chunks of the cost of healthcare and put them in a different bill. He then cites the CBO estimates of the cost of these hidden items, and points out that if the Dems were honest they would include them in the cost of healtthcare.

 

Frank and Nubbie can only come back with "I trust CBO more than your opinion". When strike points out he isn't using his opinion, but actual CBO numbers, the best you two morons have is "Um, I don't know all the details, and if it were up to you Bush would be President forever".

 

I think strike won this one.

[NewbieJr 541]

if it were up to me Bush would be President forever".

We know. We know.

[Frank M 181]

When strike points out he isn't using his opinion, but actual CBO numbers, the best you two morons have is "Um, I don't know all the details, and if it were up to you Bush would be President forever".

 

 

Really? I said that?

 

 

No, what I actually said is that I trust the CBO numbers more than Strike's opinion, and that I really don't care as much as Strike does anyways, and that Strike should get used to people having different opinions, and that Strike doesn't seem to know the differenc between fact and prediction.

 

But hey, if it helps you and Strike to think he "won" something here because he's researched the CBO numbers than me or Newbie, knock yourselves out.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

Really? I said that?

 

You said this:

 

No, I'm not familiar with each and every thing in the bill

 

Nubbie made the Bush comment. That's why I included both of you in my post.

 

HTH

[Frank M 181]

You said this:

Nubbie made the Bush comment. That's why I included both of you in my post.

 

HTH

 

So what was your point? That Strike won?

 

Good on both of ya!

 

[KSB2424 3,153]

Not to disrupt this flame fest over nothing. But the point at hand was that the Obama administration made campaign promises and after election promises of a more transparency in Washington.

 

With back room deals, out and out bribing Senators for votes, and last minute amendments to bills before anyone else has a chance to look at it is the oppossite of what was promised and the opposite of what you should want out of your elected officials. Not matter your political affilation.

 

If this Health Care bill was so great it should get voted on its own merits, not secret overnight meetings and the like. It goes back to the old saying: If you can't win....CHEAT!.

 

But continue on with the flame war about nothing.

[Frank M 181]

Not to disrupt this flame fest over nothing. But the point at hand was that the Obama administration made campaign promises and after election promises of a more transparency in Washington.

 

With back room deals, out and out bribing Senators for votes, and last minute amendments to bills before anyone else has a chance to look at it is the oppossite of what was promised and the opposite of what you should want out of your elected officials. Not matter your political affilation.

 

If this Health Care bill was so great it should get voted on its own merits, not secret overnight meetings and the like. It goes back to the old saying: If you can't win....CHEAT!.

 

But continue on with the flame war about nothing.

 

 

You guys act like this hasn't been going on since the dawn of politics. What, a politician abandoned his campaign promises once he took office? Really? Let me sit down to digest this monumental fact!

 

Is everyone here a starry-eyed idealist?

[KSB2424 3,153]

You guys act like this hasn't been going on since the dawn of politics. What, a politician abandoned his campaign promises once he took office? Really? Let me sit down to digest this monumental fact!

 

Is everyone here a starry-eyed idealist?

Of course it has before. But the current adminstation made not doing this exact thing a major priority on his campaign trail and throughout his pressers. It is perfectly acceptable, matter of fact the publics duty, to call them and him out on it.

 

Stop making excuses.

[Vikings4ever 568]

You guys act like this hasn't been going on since the dawn of politics. What, a politician abandoned his campaign promises once he took office? Really? Let me sit down to digest this monumental fact!

 

Is everyone here a starry-eyed idealist?

Of course it has happened since politics began.

 

But when a politician abandons campaign promises, they should be called on it, no matter what party they're a part of.

 

Especially when one bases a large part of their campaign on being a political outsider and changing politics as usual.

[Frank M 181]

Of course it has before. But the current adminstation made not doing this exact thing a major priority on his campaign trail and throughout his pressers. It is perfectly acceptable, matter of fact the publics duty, to call them and him out on it.

 

Stop making excuses.

 

 

Not making excuses at all. I expect it from all of them. The difference is I register my dissatisfaction in the voting booth. The rest is just mental masturbation.

[Frank M 181]

Of course it has happened since politics began.

 

But when a politician abandons campaign promises, they should be called on it, no matter what party they're a part of.

 

Especially when one bases a large part of their campaign on being a political outsider and changing politics as usual.

 

I hate to break it to you, but they all claim that.

[KSB2424 3,153]

I hate to break it to you, but they all claim that.

Oh good greif. You're better than that. Obama ran huge on the CHANGE of just this. It was the focal point of his campaign and even after. He said it ad nausea. He pledged it to the American voters and public.

 

Whatever, this is going nowhere. Continue making excuses. If you don't mind it then they will keep doing it.

[FeelingMN 273]

Not making excuses at all. I expect it from all of them. The difference is I register my dissatisfaction in the voting booth. The rest is just mental masturbation.

 

There's no difference at all. Millions of Americans, of every political/ideological stripe, register their dissatisfaction in the voting booth. Doesn't mean they can't squawk about their dissatisfaction beforehand.

 

And I'm not sure what's worse: starry eyed idealists or complacent curmedgeons.

[Frank M 181]

There's no difference at all. Millions of Americans, of every political/ideological stripe, register their dissatisfaction in the voting booth. Doesn't mean they can't squawk about their dissatisfaction beforehand.

 

And I'm not sure what's worse: starry eyed idealists or complacent curmedgeons.

 

Don't confuse complacency with not being in a twist about the health care bill or the climate in Washington.

 

Look, the only benefit to voting is that you get to critcize the person who is in office. I don't have as much of a problem with what Obama or the Democrats are doing as some of you, so why do I need to criticize him? Because others are doing it?

[Frank M 181]

Oh good greif. You're better than that. Obama ran huge on the CHANGE of just this. It was the focal point of his campaign and even after. He said it ad nausea. He pledged it to the American voters and public.

 

Whatever, this is going nowhere. Continue making excuses. If you don't mind it then they will keep doing it.

 

Not why I voted for him.

[FeelingMN 273]

Don't confuse complacency with not being in a twist about the health care bill or the climate in Washington.

 

Look, the only benefit to voting is that you get to critcize the person who is in office. I don't have as much of a problem with what Obama or the Democrats are doing as some of you, so why do I need to criticize him? Because others are doing it?

 

Meh....one of the great freedoms in this country is freedom of speech. Some people exercise it, som people don't. To each their own.

 

I don't care if you criticize...or don't criticize....whatever....just don't poopoo others' views as hyperbolic or idealistic or superficial or unnecessary....or whatever...because they're not the same as your own. Isn't that what you were arguing with Strike about?

[Frank M 181]

Meh....one of the great freedoms in this country is freedom of speech. Some people exercise it, som people don't. To each their own.

 

I don't care if you criticize...or don't criticize....whatever....just don't poopoo others' views as hyperbolic or idealistic or superficial or unnecessary....or whatever...because they're not the same as your own. Isn't that what you were arguing with Strike about?

 

I'm not pooopooing anybody. If I wanted everyone to have my own opinion, I would never post on this board at all. I just find these expressions of outrage at the government to be funny, and that anyone who expects a politician to honor any promise is naive to a certain extent.

 

ETA I'll clarify. I regiser my dissatisfaction at the voting booth. Anything else is mental masturbation for me.

[Strike 5,846]

Not to disrupt this flame fest over nothing. But the point at hand was that the Obama administration made campaign promises and after election promises of a more transparency in Washington.

 

With back room deals, out and out bribing Senators for votes, and last minute amendments to bills before anyone else has a chance to look at it is the oppossite of what was promised and the opposite of what you should want out of your elected officials. Not matter your political affilation.

 

If this Health Care bill was so great it should get voted on its own merits, not secret overnight meetings and the like. It goes back to the old saying: If you can't win....CHEAT!.

 

But continue on with the flame war about nothing.

 

Who's flaming, besides Edjr? But this is a really important point. One of the main stated goals of health care reform is to cut costs. And all these liberals are saying this bill will do that. When one looks under the covers though one finds that this isn't the case. The bill will INCREASE costs. Not to mention that the CBO estimates are ONLY for the federal government. They don't include the additional medicare/medicaid costs each state is going to incur due to the expansion of those programs. That's why the idiot senator from Nebraska bribed his Dem colleagues to get them to cover those increased costs for his state. But other states didn't get that bribe and, for a state like CA that is already on the verge of bankruptcy, this is going to cause serious damage. It's just unbelievable to me that these libs will simply support any bill their Messiah wants passed simply to say something happened. They don't even TRY to understand the bill and/or it's ramifications.

[FeelingMN 273]

I'm not pooopooing anybody. If I wanted everyone to have my own opinion, I would never post on this board at all. I just find these expressions of outrage at the government to be funny, and that anyone who expects a politician to honor any promise is naive to a certain extent.

 

ETA I'll clarify. I regiser my dissatisfaction at the voting booth. Anything else is mental masturbation for me.

 

I agree that an expectation of any politician to honor campaign promises is rooted in naivtee. So when Obama promised to bring home the troops...and reform healthcare...and whatever else he promised...but has yet to deliver....yeah, we all should have known he was telling us all what we wanted to hear. Fine, I get that....that's politics.

 

But when the candidate portrays himself as cut from a different cloth...that he himself is a different breed of leader.....there's something especially disingenuous when he quickly....and seemingly all too comfortably...steps in line with past politicians....the very same crew he tried to differentiate himself from.

 

I just don't think there's anything wrong for calling the guy out for not being who he said he was back in '07.

 

Now, the folks who cry on camera bemoaning the fall of our once great empire....yeah, those people need to get a hold of their sh!t. But folks who articulate their views with logic and some amount of sensibility, I'll lend them my ear out of respect, even though I might totally disagree with their opinion.

[Vikings4ever 568]

Who's flaming, besides Edjr? But this is a really important point. One of the main stated goals of health care reform is to cut costs. And all these liberals are saying this bill will do that. When one looks under the covers though one finds that this isn't the case. The bill will INCREASE costs.

 

I've posted it before, but even Obama's department of Health and Human Services has said this is the case.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091211/ap_on_...h_care_overhaul

[Frank M 181]

I agree that an expectation of any politician to honor campaign promises is rooted in naivtee. So when Obama promised to bring home the troops...and reform healthcare...and whatever else he promised...but has yet to deliver....yeah, we all should have known he was telling us all what we wanted to hear. Fine, I get that....that's politics.

 

But when the candidate portrays himself as cut from a different cloth...that he himself is a different breed of leader.....there's something especially disingenuous when he quickly....and seemingly all too comfortably...steps in line with past politicians....the very same crew he tried to differentiate himself from.

 

I just don't think there's anything wrong for calling the guy out for not being who he said he was back in '07.

 

I have no problem with any of this whatsoever.

 

Now, the folks who cry on camera bemoaning the fall of our once great empire....yeah, those people need to get a hold of their sh!t. But folks who articulate their views with logic and some amount of sensibility, I'll lend them my ear out of respect, even though I might totally disagree with their opinion.

 

Are there any of those here? All you get is here if you agree in principle with what Obama is doing is that you're an Obamatron, or that you believe the lies, or that he's your Messiah, or that you want a handout, or that you favor socialism.

[Voltaire 5,388]

Theres's a lot of good in this bill. It's gotten better. I've really come to like it.

 

Insurance companies won't be able to weed out people with health problems and not be able to deny benefits or outright drop people once they get sick. Since insurance companies want to turn a profit, this is what they do. Which I can't blame them, but then the game becomes to only cover healthy folks who won't use the most expensive benefits. Price the sick fockers out. It's cold but it's good for the bottom line. So some of the savings comes from not doing the screening research and also over fighting the legal battles over who to cover, which is complete bullsh*t HC spending anyways. Of course, forcing companies to insure sick and healthy people at the same rates and not dropping the sick drives up the cost of insurance for the healthy.

 

The thing is though, most of the chronically sick are already on the government dole anyways right now with the existing programs of Medicare and Medicaid. There's some necessary cost containment to be had here, it's sad the Dems are the only responsible party for reigning in costs. The GOP uses it as club to beat over their heads. It's disgusting. Especially watching them cry crocodile tears about cost overruns just after drove their own massive shuffle of taxpayer money to special interest insurance and drug companies through without a whiff of concern for budgeting.