AL MVP

[TimmySmith 2,782]

A month ago I said Trout.

 

Triple Crown + playoffs + Trout hits .287 after July = landslide for Cabrera.

[Cruzer 1,992]

Cabby in a landslide! Pretty cool to see a Triple Crown winner - well done sir.

 

 

[Stewburtx8 67]

 

+ playoffs

 

 

I'm fine with Cabrera winning, but I really don't think this should have any bearing on the argument. Miguel Cabrera "carried" the Tigers to the 7th best record in a 14 team league.

[CantTouchThis 23]

. Overall, Miggy actually had a better season last year and didn't win the MVP. But because he won the Triple Crown, I bet he gets it this year.

 

I remember at the start of the season, I was looking over his stats last year and said "How the fock did he only get 5th in MVP voting?!"

 

.344/.448/.586 on a 95 win team. Even in the steroid era, that would be considered an amazing slash line. Even though I completely agree that Verlander should have won it last year, but I thought Miggy should have been 2nd or 3rd. And in 2010 with Hamilton, Josh had 2 hot months, cooled off, got injured for September to preserve his impressed slashline and still won it. Miggy has just had bad luck, this year will be the 6th time he's been in the top 5 in MVP voting.

[CantTouchThis 23]

Miggy won in a landslide.

[Stewburtx8 67]

Miggy won in a landslide.

 

 

Not surprising. The baseball writers that vote on the award looked at it the simplest terms. Miggy won the Triple Crown, so he HAS to be the MVP. I assume that's what most of them said to themselves.

[posty 2,296]

Not surprising. The baseball writers that vote on the award looked at it the simplest terms. Miggy won the Triple Crown, so he HAS to be the MVP. I assume that's what most of them said to themselves.

 

Yep, too bad that they totally missed the mark on this one...

[hoytdwow 202]

Trout heads, why did he deserve to win? I don't see where he beats Miggy decisively stat-wise except stolen bases.

 

And I don't even like Cabrera, fat, giant uppercut swing corner infielders and all. But, fock, Cabrera didn't even strike out 100 times on his way to the triple crown; ridiculous in this day and age. And the Angels didn't even make the playoffs.....

[CantTouchThis 23]

Trout heads, why did he deserve to win? I don't see where he beats Miggy decisively stat-wise except stolen bases.

 

 

Trout beat Miggy in plenty of areas. If Trout had won, I would have said it was well deserved and the right choice, and simply put that Miggy was just cursed as everytime he should win an MVP someone has a mind-boggling season(or 2 months in '10 Hamilton's case) to overtake it.

 

But he didn't, Miggy finally broke through. Honestly, this was probably this season was slightly worse than his previous 2. If you want to look at low SO numbers, last year he had just 89 compared to 108 walks. That is STUPID for someone as aggressive as him.

 

It SHOULD have been closer ala the AL CYA. Trout lost by the margin he did because 1) Detroit made the playoffs, even though they had one less win than the Angels, writers do not like giving MVP to someone not on a playoff team no matter what, 2) Trout is a rookie, and Miggy has had several MVP-type seasons go unawarded, there is no doubt the "lifetime achievement" came into play, and 3) Triple-crown; not because of the actual crown, but he had that last-minute WOW moment that really stuck in the minds of the voters. If Hamilton had his 4 homer game in September, he would have gotten a lot more votes.

 

This debate will go on all offseason, but it won't go on "forever" like a lot of writers say. Even Trout supporters will be like "Whatever" after opening day, especially since Trout will win a few over the next decade or so. Though, something tells me a sophomore-slump will happen for Trout. I think he'll be more like .280/.370/.500 with 25 homers and 40SB. Still monster lead-off numbers though.

[hoytdwow 202]

Trout beat Miggy in plenty of areas.

OK. And which areas would those be?

This is starting to remind me of the election, when people kept saying Mitt would win, but ignored all the actual evidence to the contrary.

[patweisers44 697]

Yep, too bad that they totally missed the mark on this one...

If this is your belief, you must feel Verlander should have won the Cy Young as well?

[Mungwater 588]

OK. And which areas would those be?

This is starting to remind me of the election, when people kept saying Mitt would win, but ignored all the actual evidence to the contrary.

 

Steals/defense

[hoytdwow 202]

Steals/defense

does anyone think that's enough to beat a triple crown winner who didn't miss a game for a world series team?

[Cruzer 1,992]

Still stand by my pick. Until they change the name of the award to Most Outstanding Overall Player - give me Miggy.

[NewbieJr 540]

Cabrera was the only one of the two that provoked fear in the pitcher, the opposing team, and the opposing manager. You knew he could clear the bases with every pitch.

It's now all teh rage to use these new stats everyone talsk about. Wake me when baseball awards more 'points' for a players team than a home run or RBI does.

 

And a good defensive outfielder prevents what, maybe a hit every few weeks? So less than ten hits in a season? That's supposed to make up for the production that Cabrera had? And the fear he struck in opposing pitchers? And the good pitches his presence allows the guys hiting in front of him to get? No way.

 

This was a no brainer. I'm glad that the vote didn't end up being close. It never should have been.

 

 

Edit: And steals? Big deal. Hit a double to begin with, wimp.

[Cruzer 1,992]

Just noticed the voting results - damn, wasn't even close. Also glad to see Beltre finish 3rd and get some recognition for the incredible season he had.

[TimmySmith 2,782]

Baseball people must think the stat freaks are insane. How deep do you have to dig to come up with something that favors Trout over Cabrera for an at bat that will decide a game?

[hoytdwow 202]

Just noticed the voting results - damn, wasn't even close.

Trout shouldn't have gotten any 1st place votes

[Stewburtx8 67]

Cabrera was the only one of the two that provoked fear in the pitcher, the opposing team, and the opposing manager. You knew he could clear the bases with every pitch.

It's now all teh rage to use these new stats everyone talsk about. Wake me when baseball awards more 'points' for a players team than a home run or RBI does.

 

And a good defensive outfielder prevents what, maybe a hit every few weeks? So less than ten hits in a season? That's supposed to make up for the production that Cabrera had? And the fear he struck in opposing pitchers? And the good pitches his presence allows the guys hiting in front of him to get? No way.

 

This was a no brainer. I'm glad that the vote didn't end up being close. It never should have been.

 

 

Edit: And steals? Big deal. Hit a double to begin with, wimp.

 

 

If you truly believe all this rhetoric, then your understanding of baseball and the stats that actual matter are pretty far off the mark. The industry has made a HUGE leap in player evaluation but some people (including many of the sportswriters that vote for the MVP) are still stuck in their old school ways.

 

Trout's defense destroyed Cabrera. It wasn't even close. Cabrera had a marginally better season at the plate (in a better ballpark for hitters against weaker competition). Trout's base running destroyed Cabrera's. There are 3 major facets to the game. Provoking "fear" in a pitcher is not one of them:

 

Hitting: Cabrera > Trout

Fielding: Trout >>>>> Cabrera

Base Running: Trout >>>> Cabrera

 

Trout's major advantages in fielding and base running more than make up for Cabrera's smaller advantage at the plate. It's why Trout finished with a much higher WAR than Cabrera.

 

Can't Touch This made a good post though. I only argue this because I like to argue, and don't like to see several uninformed posts in this thread. In the end, Cabrera had a tremendous season though. Trout just had a better one. But in a few weeks, I probably will care less about this.

[braylonjetwards 0]

Trout heads, why did he deserve to win? I don't see where he beats Miggy decisively stat-wise except stolen bases.

 

And I don't even like Cabrera, fat, giant uppercut swing corner infielders and all. But, fock, Cabrera didn't even strike out 100 times on his way to the triple crown; ridiculous in this day and age. And the Angels didn't even make the playoffs.....

Better OBP. 49 swipes, but it's not the number alone thats so impressive. He had a 90+% success rate, that's insane and adds a lot of value. While trout struck out more, Miggy grounded into significantly more double plays. Double plays are rally killers and worth a lot more negative value than a strike out. Trout scored 125 runs, was by far the best base runner in baseball. He's a game changer when on base. He went from 1st to home on a single this year.

 

That's all ignoring the fact that Trout was at worst slightly worse than Cabrera with the bat. Factor in base running and he was superior to Cabrera offensively. There's more to baseball offensively than just swinging the bat.

 

Well be generous with Cabrera and say he was "serviceable" at 3B, whatever that means. Trout still laps him defensively by playing elite D at CF.

 

Everybody wants to pump Cabreras triple crown but ignore the fact that Trouts season was more historically rare.He's the the first player in the history of baseball to hit 30, steal 45, and score 125 runs in the same season. Stats are funny like that. You can make something look more impressive than it deserves just by arbitrarily deciding 3 stats are more important than all others. Hmm?

 

The dumbest argument of all is the whole would you rather have Trout or Cabrera for one at bat. I didn't realize a baseball game consisted of one at bat. The better question is if you had to pick one player to start a team with based off of last year. The answer is Trout and it's not close. Miggy is maybe top 5.

 

This is to take nothing away from Cabrera, who is on the fast track to the hall of fame. Trout was just a better player in almost every facet this year.

[Durtee 0]

It's actually pretty hilarious to listen to people make cases that Trout got robbed and etc... They both had great years, but....Are you kidding? Cabrera is easily the MVP. It's almost as if, they made up statistics just to make a case for Trout. I get the base running and elite defense argument, but Cabrera murdered him in almost every offensive statistical category and best of all Cabrera did it down the stretch and in the late innings. Cabrera propelled his team into the playoffs, while Trout was very average down the stretch and the Angels finished 3rd in their division.

[NewbieJr 540]

 

 

Hitting: Cabrera > Trout

Fielding: Trout >>>>> Cabrera

Base Running: Trout >>>> Cabrera

 

 

Like I said, fielding is nothing when compared to hitting. How many 'great' plays did he make this year that an average ourfielder couldn't have? 7? 10? Big deal

 

And did Maury Wills win any MVP's? Steals are great. You get moved up a base. How does that compare with all of Cabrera's home runs?

 

The voters got this one right. I knew they would. This "contest' was a media creation.

[braylonjetwards 0]

Like I said, fielding is nothing when compared to hitting. How many 'great' plays did he make this year that an average ourfielder couldn't have? 7? 10? Big deal

 

And did Maury Wills win any MVP's? Steals are great. You get moved up a base. How does that compare with all of Cabrera's home runs?

 

The voters got this one right. I knew they would. This "contest' was a media creation.

Trout had this all but locked up before Hamilton disappeared. Cabrera had a better year each of the last two years but the triple crown narrative took over when Hamilton turned into Alfonso Soriano for the last 2-3 months. That's why this is a debate. Most arguments in favor of Cabrera (playoffs, triple crown) were dependent on collapse by others (Hamilton, White Sox).

 

If you want to argue that the MVP has to go a playoff team then were discussing the semantics of value. If its a question of who the better player is there's really no debate. You keep mentioning hitting as if Trout wasn't a stud at the plate. He was essentially the 2011 version of Ryan Braun at the plate if you want to just look at traditional stats. If you look at some of the deeper metrics (I'm assuming you don't) he was Cabreras equal at the plate this year.

 

I'm no slave to saber metrics, I think it's flawed but it's not so inaccurate that it's useless in the discussion. I agree the power trumps the metrics here and I will give a slight edge to Cabrera at the plate. But It's nothing substantial. Take Trouts swipes and convert them into doubles for his hitting line. Depending on how generous we're being we should add 30-40 doubles to his line. That alone makes him better offensive than Cabrera. Factor in fielding (which is an enormous gap), and running the bases on balls in play, and it's not close. In terms of all around baseball in 2012 Trout>> Anyone.

[CantTouchThis 23]

Guys, there is this stat called Total Bases that takes into account SB and also BB and HBP. So, if Trout hits a single and gets a steal, that's 2 total bases. Miggy lapped the league in this category, I believe Beltre was a distant second.

 

Also, looked beyond incredibly flawed defensive metrics, where Cabrera is slightly below average, BTW. Miguel is a solid fielder at third, he won't win any (legit) gold gloves, but he is more than serviceable. When you account for the back that he switched positions without hesitation to make room for Fielder, I think you can discount his "terrible" defense.

 

The biggest reason I would have voted by Miggy is I saw him carry the team to a pennant down the stretch on ONE LEG.

[posty 2,296]

If this is your belief, you must feel Verlander should have won the Cy Young as well?

 

Nope... Price pitching against the AL East was more impressive than Verlander against the AL Central...

[posty 2,296]

Guys, there is this stat called Total Bases that takes into account SB and also BB and HBP. So, if Trout hits a single and gets a steal, that's 2 total bases. Miggy lapped the league in this category, I believe Beltre was a distant second.

 

Also, looked beyond incredibly flawed defensive metrics, where Cabrera is slightly below average, BTW. Miguel is a solid fielder at third, he won't win any (legit) gold gloves, but he is more than serviceable. When you account for the back that he switched positions without hesitation to make room for Fielder, I think you can discount his "terrible" defense.

 

The biggest reason I would have voted by Miggy is I saw him carry the team to a pennant down the stretch on ONE LEG.

 

Total Bases does not use SB, BB and HBP...

 

TB = Singles + 2 x Doubles + 3 x Triples + 4 x Home Runs

[NewbieJr 540]

Total Bases does not use SB, BB and HBP...

 

TB = Singles + 2 x Doubles + 3 x Triples + 4 x Home Runs

Well, what would the numbers be if you added in their steals, walks, etc?

[braylonjetwards 0]

 

The biggest reason I would have voted by Miggy is I saw him carry the team to a pennant down the stretch on ONE LEG.

See this is where the Cabrera argument falls apart. It hinges on a narrative that is just blatantly slanted. Miggy C did not "carry" this team down the stretch by himself. He was clearly a monster, but they had the best pitching staff in the majors after the trade for Anibal. The staff along with Cabrera carried the team. That and a collapse by the White Sox. This argument is basically Miggy C (buy moreso the pitching staff) carried the Tigers to the 7th best record in the AL in quite possibly the worst division in baseball.

 

The only way you can argue for Cabrera is if you disqualify anyone who missed the playoffs. Then we're arguing the definition of valuable. But in terms of best player in baseball in 2012, it's Trout. A lot of disclaimers have to be applied to conclude that Cabrera was more valuable than trout this year.

 

I don't even have a problem with the results. The MLB definition of MVP is pretty vague and Cabrera was amazing as he has been his whole career. He had an MVP caliber season. My problem is most of the Cabrera arguments use questionable logic.

[posty 2,296]

Maybe Prince Fielder should have been the MVP... With him hitting behind Cabrera, Cabrera got better pitches to hit...

[Stewburtx8 67]

Guys, there is this stat called Total Bases that takes into account SB and also BB and HBP. So, if Trout hits a single and gets a steal, that's 2 total bases. Miggy lapped the league in this category, I believe Beltre was a distant second.

 

Also, looked beyond incredibly flawed defensive metrics, where Cabrera is slightly below average, BTW. Miguel is a solid fielder at third, he won't win any (legit) gold gloves, but he is more than serviceable. When you account for the back that he switched positions without hesitation to make room for Fielder, I think you can discount his "terrible" defense.

 

The biggest reason I would have voted by Miggy is I saw him carry the team to a pennant down the stretch on ONE LEG.

 

 

Can't Touch This, I know you are a Tigers fan, and you've been very rational in this thread. But suggesting Miguel Cabrera is a solid fielder at 3B really hurts your credibility. Miguel Cabrera is a well below average defensive player. Most would say he is very poor defensively. Errors and fielding percentage don't begin to tell the story of how few balls Cabrera gets to that many other 3B would get to.

[Stewburtx8 67]

Guys, there is this stat called Total Bases that takes into account SB and also BB and HBP. So, if Trout hits a single and gets a steal, that's 2 total bases. Miggy lapped the league in this category, I believe Beltre was a distant second.

 

 

Total bases only includes singles + doubles + triples + home runs. Also remember that Mike Trout only played 139 games. Cabrera played 161 games. So let's look at this and includes walks, HBP, and then steals.

 

Cabrera- 377 total bases in 161 games. 66 walks and 3 HBP. That's a total of 450 "total" bases. So Cabrera averaged 2.795031 bases per game.

Trout- 315 total bases in 139 games. 67 walks and 6 HBP. That's a total of 388 "total" bases. So Trout averaged 2.791367 bases per game.

 

That's ridiculously close with a slight edge to Cabrera. NOW, let's add in stolen bases:

 

Cabrera- 450 "total" bases plus 4 steals in 161 games = 2.819876 bases per game including walks, HBP, and steals.

Trout- 388 "total" bases plus 49 steals in 139 games - 3.143885 bases per game including walks, HBP, and steals.

 

Now we see where Trout takes the lead. This doesn't include all the extra bases that Trout takes on the base paths by going 1st to 3rd, 2nd to home, etc. Add in the HUGE advantage for Trout defensively and this is why he has a much higher WAR and should of probably won the MVP.