Harvin vs Cobb vs Cruz... "in fantasy"

[dreen626 17]

If i had to pick one in real football it would be Harvin by far.

Cobb and Cruz have pass happy offenses while Harvin will have more of a running offense.

However, how would you rank them for FF this year when you figure offenses, QB, injury risk, etc?

 

 

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

Harvin>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cobb<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<cruz

[UNCDave 0]

So FBN, you're saying Harvin is 22 spots greater than Cobb, and then Cobb is 18 spots lower than Cruz. So actual order would be Harvin, Cruz, Cobb? I think I can agree with the order, but not the degree. Let's just assume Harvin finishes at WR10, that would put Cobb at WR32, and Cruz at WR14. 2 of those feel likely, the other is a stretch. STop the hyperbolic madness

[sirensong 111]

i dunno--in terms of real football, harvin seems like a gimmicky player. Djax is another example. they're guys who can change any game with their explosiveness, but can't be counted on not to disappear. maybe i just like his style of play better, but i'd take cruz if i were building a team. however, i haven't seen enough of harvin to state this authoritatively--that's just the impression that i get from the games i've seen.

 

as for FF, i haven't looked beyond the east in terms of matchups, so my opinion wouldn't count for much.

[weepaws 2,461]

cruz harvin cobb

[BobSanders_33 127]

I don't think you could go wrong with any of these receivers and all three have top 10 potential.

 

We have an idea of what Cobb and Cruz can do in their current situation. The wildcard here is Percy Harvin. You can look at Golden Tate's numbers to get an absolute floor for Harvin. Tate ended the year 45/688/7 with a 15.3 YPC. Pete Carroll will design a lot of plays to run through Harvin so you have to assume that the catch numbers will go up. The TDs are already respectable and you would also imagine that Harvin can add a few on top of that.

 

Right now the ADPs of the three players Cobb (3.7), Harvin (3.9), Cruz (4.1). I would personally rank them Cobb, Cruz, then Harvin giving the edge to the two players that you know will see a large volume of targets. Harvin is a slightly riskier play but has a ton of upside if he can hall in red zone targets.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

I don't think you could go wrong with any of these receivers and all three have top 10 potential.

 

We have an idea of what Cobb and Cruz can do in their current situation. The wildcard here is Percy Harvin. You can look at Golden Tate's numbers to get an absolute floor for Harvin. Tate ended the year 45/688/7 with a 15.3 YPC. Pete Carroll will design a lot of plays to run through Harvin so you have to assume that the catch numbers will go up. The TDs are already respectable and you would also imagine that Harvin can add a few on top of that.

 

Right now the ADPs of the three players Cobb (3.7), Harvin (3.9), Cruz (4.1). I would personally rank them Cobb, Cruz, then Harvin giving the edge to the two players that you know will see a large volume of targets. Harvin is a slightly riskier play but has a ton of upside if he can hall in red zone targets.

Harvin is has so much more talent than tate that the two arent comparable. I would never take a wr in the second round of a ppr draft if i thought his floor was 45 688 7. I highly doubt harvin will be going 3.9 in a real draft. Maybe non ppr, but it still seems a little late.

 

Harvin >x 1 billion tate

[BobSanders_33 127]

Harvin is has so much more talent than tate that the two arent comparable. I would never take a wr in the second round of a ppr draft if i thought his floor was 45 688 7. I highly doubt harvin will be going 3.9 in a real draft. Maybe non ppr, but it still seems a little late.

 

Harvin >x 1 billion tate

 

You have poor reading comprehension. First, nobody stated if it were PPR or standard scoring. If it were PPR scoring then Cobb and Cruz would have substantial advantages in offenses where they will command a high rate of targets. Second, you can't argue a players ADP. It is a statistical fact. Third, I said absolute floor. If you read on I state that Harvin's numbers will be much higher because Carroll will scheme to get Harvin the ball. They are comparable because Tate and Harvin will play the same position in the Seattle offense. Tate was able to manage 7 TDs and has far less talent so that is a good sign for Harvin.

[NEWPOSTERGUY! 267]

This will be the last season one will be able to snag Cobb as late as the third round. after a robust 1400 total yards, and double digit td's in 2013, he will be entrenched in the Green/Julio/Marshall tier going forward.

 

Cobb every day over the other two, by far.

 

Cobb >>>>>> Harvin >>>>>>>>> Cruz.

 

I AM NEWPOSTERGUY!!!!!1!

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

You have poor reading comprehension. First, nobody stated if it were PPR or standard scoring. If it were PPR scoring then Cobb and Cruz would have substantial advantages in offenses where they will command a high rate of targets. Second, you can't argue a players ADP. It is a statistical fact. Third, I said absolute floor. If you read on I state that Harvin's numbers will be much higher because Carroll will scheme to get Harvin the ball. They are comparable because Tate and Harvin will play the same position in the Seattle offense. Tate was able to manage 7 TDs and has far less talent so that is a good sign for Harvin.

Well youre a focking moron so.... I dont know how else to explain it.

 

Harvin has a huge advantage over cobb and cruz because he flat out has more talent. I have all the faith in the world in russell wilson to be able to pass accurately enough, with enough attempts, to support a high end wr1.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

I don't get the mad love for Harvin. He's an electric player, sure, but he's inconsistent and oft-injured. I understand the potential but the guy has never had 1,000 yards receiving in a season, though he did go over 1,000 total yards in 2011.

I'd go:

1a. Cobb

1b. Cruz

3. Harvin

I'm very high on both Cobb and Cruz this year

[BobSanders_33 127]

Well youre a focking moron so.... I dont know how else to explain it.

 

Harvin has a huge advantage over cobb and cruz because he flat out has more talent. I have all the faith in the world in russell wilson to be able to pass accurately enough, with enough attempts, to support a high end wr1.

 

I'm looking at your picture and can't determine if you are the guy with the short hair or the man with the long hair?

[lesjroza 70]

Alright, I respect your opinion but I'm going to disagree on your ranking of these WRs FBN.

 

I think that Harvin is the WR of these 3 most likely to disappoint in FF based on ADPs and I strongly suspect he will in fact disappoint especially those who reach above his ADP by turning in a solid, but very unspectacular FF year. I think there is a incorrect assumption that Seattle traded a pick and ponied up the big $$$ because they needed a go to WR1 and people think they will HAVE to use Percy this way.

 

IMO the Seahawks see Percy as a unique talent who can be used in a variety of different fashions and his value to the team is based on his uniqueness as well as his dominant special teams production. The new Seahwaks organization is one the the front offices that truly gets it. I suspect they actually don't want any go to player and would prefer to see very balanced production from their offense across not only the skill groups but even the players within each skill group. There will be games that are Percy games, games that are Rice games, and games that are Tate and the TEs. Some games will be a non-stop barrage of Lynch, Turbin, and Michael. Don't be shocked if there are games in which the Seahawks lead that by the 2nd half Percy only touches the ball a couple of times on some kind of fun gadget play to keep him interested.

 

I could go into the other 2 WRs more and I probably will at some point but suffice it to say that I think situation favors Cobb, and history of production favors Cruz. In the end I think Cruz and Cobb are fairly equal with Percy below. The 2 wild cards for Cobbs production are Finley and health. If Finley can line up in one slot and they can actually count on him this year Cobb will absolutely still do well but not explode, if Finley is a bum again Cobb very well may lead the league in targets. I say health because he has not yet proven that he can stand up to a full season with a HEAVY workload of touches and people forget that just because the situation makes sense for a guy to get top 5 targets doesn't mean he will hold up physically at that kind of rate, few receivers actually can.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

I'm looking at your picture and can't determine if you are the guy with the short hair or the man with the long hair?

I had a feeling that was coming. Doesnt change the fact that your a moron. Arian foster is too old is about as analytically stupid as it comes.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

Alright, I respect your opinion but I'm going to disagree on your ranking of these WRs FBN.

 

I think that Harvin is the WR of these 3 most likely to disappoint in FF based on ADPs and I strongly suspect he will in fact disappoint especially those who reach above his ADP by turning in a solid, but very unspectacular FF year. I think there is a incorrect assumption that Seattle traded a pick and ponied up the big $$$ because they needed a go to WR1 and people think they will HAVE to use Percy this way.

 

IMO the Seahawks see Percy as a unique talent who can be used in a variety of different fashions and his value to the team is based on his uniqueness as well as his dominant special teams production. The new Seahwaks organization is one the the front offices that truly gets it. I suspect they actually don't want any go to player and would prefer to see very balanced production from their offense across not only the skill groups but even the players within each skill group. There will be games that are Percy games, games that are Rice games, and games that are Tate and the TEs. Some games will be a non-stop barrage of Lynch, Turbin, and Michael. Don't be shocked if there are games in which the Seahawks lead that by the 2nd half Percy only touches the ball a couple of times on some kind of fun gadget play to keep him interested.

 

I could go into the other 2 WRs more and I probably will at some point but suffice it to say that I think situation favors Cobb, and history of production favors Cruz. In the end I think Cruz and Cobb are fairly equal with Percy below. The 2 wild cards for Cobbs production are Finley and health. If Finley can line up in one slot and they can actually count on him this year Cobb will absolutely still do well but not explode, if Finley is a bum again Cobb very well may lead the league in targets. I say health because he has not yet proven that he can stand up to a full season with a HEAVY workload of touches and people forget that just because the situation makes sense for a guy to get top 5 targets doesn't mean he will hold up physically at that kind of rate, few receivers actually can.

 

I still dont understand the comparison in favor of cobb. They are both talented but harvin obviously has an edge. They both play with good-great qbs (yeah wilson still has another season to prove he is consistent). Why would the seahawks invest in harvin if he was more of a certain situation/gimmick/diversion if he is obviously the best player on the roster?

 

If the seahawks really have it together and understand how to utilize their talent, why would they limit harvins capacity? Injuries are a concern, but all nfl players have injury concerns. Maximizing the output of an offense usually revolves around putting the ball in the best players hands. Those two players are harvin and wilson for the hawks.

 

Not all teams understand this philosophy, but those are usually the bottom dwellers who cant evaluate talent properly anyway. Eli already looked like a qb showing decline last year. I dont really believe age is catching up early but he just didnt seem to have the same command last year.

 

After all the arguments are made i can respect everyones opinion on the three wrs. All are in great situations and should flourish in some capacity. I didnt really mean harvin was that much bettet of an option this year, though i do put him easily above the others from a pure talent perspective.

[lesjroza 70]

"If the seahawks really have it together and understand how to utilize their talent, why would they limit harvins capacity? Injuries are a concern, but all nfl players have injury concerns. Maximizing the output of an offense usually revolves around putting the ball in the best players hands. Those two players are harvin and wilson for the hawks."

 

Considering ANY player to be the best player on a team is a very one dimensional way of looking at things. I think organizations that "get it" look at things in a MUCH more multi-faceted way. Its the next step of specialization that goes beyond the concept of single RB over the years becoming RB plus a 3rd down specialist. Its happening in every facet of the game and is only limited by the NFL roster size.

Its a very philosophical discussion better left to a different form of media but consider that teams should, and I think some do, look at the best player on their team within the context of which particular down and distance they are facing, at which particluar point in the game, and where the score is currently. Going beyond that the gameplan itself can be very defense specific and tailored to attack the weaknesses of a particular team based on idividual matchups IF you have the players and have built the roster in a way to accomplish that successfully. I personally think its a great improvement over the "line up and do what we do best approach" unless you have an AP or a Tom Brady but even in that case your season and franchise over the course of seasons becomes awfully dependant on a single or couple of individuals.

 

"Why would the seahawks invest in harvin if he was more of a certain situation/gimmick/diversion if he is obviously the best player on the roster?"

 

Now taking my comments above into consideration consider how Harvin can fit into those plans in a variety of ways. He is the ultimate Swiss Army knife player! Do you use a Swiss army knife for every situation that you encounter? No!

 

You probably could, and there is great value in having it available if need be, but if you want to open a bottle and you have a bottle opener you will probably use it. If you need to cut open a box and you have a box cutter your'e going to use it. Does having those other things in your toolbox which you use regularly mean that a Swiss army knife which you can always carry around in your pocket is not of great value?

 

The average fan and I think even NFL teams undervalue special teams play tremendously. As a Bears fan and watching them over the course of many years FBN I know you realize how important special teams play can be in winning football games. If you have a good defense ST plays can make up 20% or more of an individual games plays and assuming a low scoring affair based on that good defense a ST score or 2 can easily be the difference. You don't think having Percy on returns could be the difference in a few games between the 49ers and Seahawks over the next 5 yrs or so? Is there not great value in a player that can make the difference in a division championship and homefield because he broke off a punt return TD?

 

Again Percy can be used in the backfield to run the ball, to go in motion as a wideout to help Wilson determine the coverage, to exploit mismatches on the defense and having one player that can be used in so many different ways is priceless to the team but it does not mean that he will pile up FF numbers for your team. The Hawks have very sutiable players to accomplish each of those tasks already.

 

Not going to get stuck here and go on and on though some might say I already have. The point is that I disagree what you think Harvin's role will be. I also disagree that the role I envision is not of huge value to the Seahawks, but would still limit him from accruing huge stats to your bottom line. He WILL get touches and I can see where it could happen your way if the Hawks suffer a number of injuries (or suspensions) but my base case is that he will not get the opportunities of a Cobb or a Cruz, I am assuming PPR league.

 

Unless return ydg is a scoring category I would stay away at his ADP. TDs can be a volatile stat and that is certainly another way he could end up performing to ADP if he gets a bunch.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

Ok Les, we will see. I really hope all three stay healthy all year so we can compare at seasons end.

[420allstars 13]

I don't get the mad love for Harvin. He's an electric player, sure, but he's inconsistent and oft-injured. I understand the potential but the guy has never had 1,000 yards receiving in a season, though he did go over 1,000 total yards in 2011.

 

I'd go:

1a. Cobb

1b. Cruz

3. Harvin

 

I'm very high on both Cobb and Cruz this year

Agree with this! And can I add that no one seems to be talking about it but he's a bit of a hot head on and off the field too! When it's something so close as Cobb and harvin are it has to be taken into account.

[BobSanders_33 127]

I had a feeling that was coming. Doesnt change the fact that your a moron. Arian foster is too old is about as analytically stupid as it comes.

 

Again, it really comes down to a reading comprehension issue. Go back an read it again. I said that his offensive line is aging and in decline. Then you had your tantrum about Foster not being too old. I then returned to address that I was speaking about his line being an issue and you again replied with Foster not being too old. Now again in this thread you are bringing up Foster's age.

 

"I still dont understand the comparison in favor of cobb. They are both talented but harvin obviously has an edge. They both play with good-great qbs (yeah wilson still has another season to prove he is consistent). Why would the seahawks invest in harvin if he was more of a certain situation/gimmick/diversion if he is obviously the best player on the roster?"

 

You should also cut out your use of obviously. In terms of talent most would agree that Harvin is the more talent but a case could be made that Cobb has devoted himself to becoming elite at the position. It seems that the consensus here is that Cobb is in front of Harvin because one WR is on a pass based offense and the other is on a run based offense. Also, Harvin is not obviously the best player on the Seattle roster. I think that Richard Sherman is the most talented player on the Seattle roster and then a case can be made for Lynch or Wilson.

[The FOOT 0]

Hands down harvin

[Ghost of the closet 0]

Ha-Ha!