Eli Manning... benched

[seafoam1 1,879]

I'm an angry Bears fan because Jim McMahon didn't get MVP in his super bowl XX victory.

MVP stats right here:

12 completed passes for 256 yards

21.3 yards per completion

2 rushing TDs

 

 

Richard Dent who?

Eli who?

[jrokh 569]

Yeah McMahon got shafted because it wasn't even a game.

[brotherbock 349]

It's not that big of a deal. I just think his skill set is so far behind certain others QBs that the distinction is obvious when it comes to being elite. Therefore, no HOF for you Eli.

 

Have read some of the arguments here. I think it's important to remember that it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Elite Talent, or the Hall of Stats, or the Hall of Superbowl Wins.

 

Terrell Davis was one of the most talented RBs to play the game, for the brief time that he played. Elite Talent. That talent eventually put him into the Hall...after seven years on the ballot. And it's still not clear to me that he should be there. But elite talent can get you there, even when career stats aren't there. Davis would likely have challenged the top guys at the position for career stats had he lasted, but he didn't. What got him in was either sheer talent, or his relative stats and a projection of what they would have been.

 

Howie Long is another guy who is in the Hall based on his overall impact, not based on career stats. His stats for a D lineman aren't actually all that amazing. Good, but not amazing.

You also don't need SB wins to get in. LT is proof of that. It was all individual stats for him.

You don't need a ton of team wins to get you into the Hall. Barry Sanders is proof of that. Maybe that's different for QBs. But it was also stats for Sanders.

 

So the big question is what 'elite talent' means, and whether there are any players currently in the HOF that have 'elite talent.

 

We can't just mean 'measureables' for 'elite talent'. Emmitt Smith would never have gotten in on measurables. Guy probably ran a high 4.5 40. Half of Al Davis' last ten years of Raiders drafts would be in the HOF if it was just measurables. And if we just mean 'wins' or 'SBs' or 'stats', then this isn't even another qualification. If 'elite talent' is it's own category, then what is it? Is it just some sort of 'well, he looks like he plays good' sort of feeling? I have no real idea what that means, other than maybe thinking about guys who 'were good' but were always stuck on bad teams. Problem is, those guys always seem to have still put up stats. Like LT, or Priest Holmes. We can quantify their 'talent' by individual stats.

 

Eli seems to have a number of years of good yearly stats (some bad years too...Favrian in that aspect), good overall career stats, two SB wins, and I'd say significant impact in the way those wins were won--I'd daresay those wins are downright famous

 

Yeah, Eli never really looks inspiring. Even Favre's biggest critics couldn't doubt the way he excited and inspired his teams, running around yelling, screaming in joy, etc. Eli is an 'aw shucks' sort of guy. So when you watch him play, even his great games, at least for me there's never any sense of 'wow, did you see him do that'. Maybe that's where the impression of 'not elite talent' comes from. Watching Barry Sanders play was often literally breathtaking.

 

So, two questions:

1) are there are actual HOF players who were seen as 'not elite talent' but had the stats, record, etc, when they were playing? A guy like Warren Sapp, maybe? He benefited a lot from the DEF he was playing for. Played a lot of years.

2) if a guy has all the rest of the things that seem to put other guys in the Hall--stats, SBs, significant impact--but isn't a guy whose play takes your breath away, is that a reason to reject him?

 

I have no dog in this hunt, don't know if he should be in or not.

 

 

EDIT: For #1, maybe Curtis Martin is a good Eli parallel. I never really saw Martin as top of the league elite--he was very good, and did what he did for a long time without much dropoff. Every year there were always guys 'more talented' than he was. Never really sat up amazed at anything I saw him do. But he's in the HOF.

 

EDIT: Or Darrell Green. I always loved Green. Had 54 INTs...but that's over TWENTY years. That's under 3 picks per year average. And that 54 is not even top 20. He was very very good for an incredibly long time. But 'elite' in any given year over much of that time?

[sirensong 111]

Super Bowl XLII: Eli- 255 2TD 1 INT: result- Superbowl MVP

Superbowl XLVI: Eli- 296 1TD 0 INT: Result Superbowl MVP

 

So in Fact, Eli Not only produced in both games he won the MVP, twice. The defense played great, but not as great as Eli. These arguments keep getting worse. There is plenty of material to make the case against Eli that one doesn't need to resort to comparing him to Andy Dalton or inexplicably arguing that he didn't produce in the superbowls.

 

this isn't FF we're talking about--yards don't count. 5 TDs total offensive production in 2 games...against a team that averaged almost 5 TDs per game.

 

he ran a clown shoes offense that the defense enabled. he failed his way to fame.

[sirensong 111]

Wow. Just saying stuff now.

 

not at all. giants' all-time MVperson and the only reason eli will be remembered in the future?

 

steve spagnuolo.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

 

not at all. giants' all-time MVperson and the only reason eli will be remembered in the future?

 

steve spagnuolo.

Spagnulo wasn't there for Elis second 4th quarter game winning touchdown drive in the super bowl against the Patriots.

[jrokh 569]

We should all be so lucky to fail our way through life the same way as Eli.

[ChinaCat 21]

What does Eli's wife look like? That's how I will judge him.

[sirensong 111]

We should all be so lucky to fail our way through life the same way as Eli.

 

you're right. jeff hostetler was a better QB, but didn't have the luck. maybe he should have closed his eyes and heaved more.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

Never been to Canton for a HOF induction. Will make it a point to get to Elis.

[seafoam1 1,879]

We should all be so lucky to fail our way through life the same way as Eli.

How has the discussion changed from manning being a HOFer, to him failing in life? You are bastardizing the debate. The other person said "failed his way to fame", which I'm guessing he meant HOF, not life, since this whole topic is about HOF.

[Skinny_Bastard 154]

Eli retires and then unretire to join the Denver Broncos. Broncos win the 2019-2020 Super Bowl.

[seafoam1 1,879]

When you write QB of a team that won two super bowls you are intentionally or even unintentionally diminishing Eli's role in the winning of the Super Bowls. He was the Super Bowl MVP both times and he beat arguably the greatest dynasty in NFL history twice. Context matters

Ok. He is the ultimate reason for the Giants getting their ass kicked by the Cowboys.

 

Eli Manning is not a HOFer.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

Ok. He is the ultimate reason for the Giants getting their ass kicked by the Cowboys.

 

Eli Manning is not a HOFer.

Someone read a box score and didn't watch the game.

[seafoam1 1,879]

Someone read a box score and didn't watch the game.

Beats me. But if you are asking if I watched it. Then yes, I did. He is not a HOFer.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

Beats me. But if you are asking if I watched it. Then yes, I did. He is not a HOFer.

He will be.

[seafoam1 1,879]

He will be.

If he will be, it will be undeserved and only because his brother and father will petition the crap out of it.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

If he will be, it will be undeserved and only because his brother and father will petition the crap out of it.

Right. It won't be because he's top ten in all the stats that matter.

[seafoam1 1,879]

Right. It won't be because he's top ten in all the stats that matter.

No it won't. He has longevity. That's it. Defense won them championships. And one title was made from a miracle catch on a terrible pass, from him.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

No it won't. He has longevity. That's it. Defense won them championships. And one title was made from a miracle catch on a terrible pass.

It was 3rd down. Rivers has longevity. And no rings.

[seafoam1 1,879]

It was 3rd down.

Yeah, a terrible 3rd down pass.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

Yeah, a terrible 3rd down pass.

I guess you think Troy Aikman shouldn't be in?

[seafoam1 1,879]

I guess you think Troy Aikman shouldn't be in?

I don't have an opinion on everyone who has played in the lesgue. I only looked into manning because it came up and I have seen many games of his.

[seafoam1 1,879]

I don't have an opinion on everyone who has played in the lesgue. I only looked into manning because it came up and I have seen many games of his.

It is not The Hall of He Had a Decent Career.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

I don't have an opinion on everyone who has played in the lesgue. I only looked into manning because it came up and I have seen many games of his.

Who do you have an opinion of if not a first ballot HOF QB? His career get by you?

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

I don't have an opinion on everyone who has played in the lesgue. I only looked into manning because it came up and I have seen many games of his.

So you looked at some stats and drew your conclusion. Cool.

[seafoam1 1,879]

So you looked at some stats and drew your conclusion. Cool.

? You don't make sense. What have you seen? Actually seen. Because I have watched him fail for years. I think it's you looking at some stats and missing the point. Because that is all you have brought up.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

? You don't make sense. What have you seen? Actually seen. Because I have watched him fail for years. I think it's you looking at some stats and missing the point. Because that is all you have brought up.

You said you "looked into" Manning. What does that mean? How did you do that?

[seafoam1 1,879]

You said you "looked into" Manning. What does that mean? How did you do that?

What have you seen?

[seafoam1 1,879]

What have you seen?

Let's start with, did you watch today's giants game?

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

Let's start with, did you watch today's giants game?

Yes. Saw bad blocking and a lot of dropped passes.

[seafoam1 1,879]

Yes. Saw bad blocking and a lot of dropped passes.

On really poor passes. Did you watch the last five years of his play?

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

On really poor passes. Did you watch the last five years of his play?

Saw him throw 35 TD s a couple of years ago. That get by you too?

[seafoam1 1,879]

How did that work out for the team?

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

How did that work out for the team?

I saw his team win 11 games last year.

[seafoam1 1,879]

Yup. The team, not actually manning. Sounds like you are just looking at stats.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

Yup. The team, not actually manning. Sounds like you are just looking at stats.

He throws 35 TD's, nothing, team didn't win. Team wins 11 games, nothing, he didn't help. Got it.

[seafoam1 1,879]

team didn't win.

Very true.

[seafoam1 1,879]

Face it. Manning just had way too many bad years. He just had longevity and the luck to have had a couple really good defenses to help him along. So if that is your criteria for HOF, then he deserves to be in.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

Face it. Manning just had way too many bad years. He just had longevity and the luck to have had a couple really good defenses to help him along. So if that is your criteria for HOF, then he deserves to be in.

Ok kid