Eli Manning... benched

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

there's no right or wrong in this debate, it's all opinion. I personally think that championship performance should offset a lack of regular season statistics, you personally don't. Each of our opinions is equally as valid though since HOF candidacy is a fluid construct formed via different people's opinion. There is no finite criteria, therefore there can't be a right or wrong answer.

 

in regards to the Tyree catch, sure Tyree made it dramatic, but don't forget that Eli made a great move to swing away from a sack before making the throw, and he put in a place where he knew his receiver would have an advantage. It was still a great play by Eli. But football is the ultimate team sport in that everyone has to be clicking for the team to succeed and for any one individual to be in a position to shine. Tyree isn't in position to make that great catch if Eli doesn't already make a hell of a play to avoid the sack and throw under duress. It's my opinion that Eli driving down the field and taking down potentially the best team ever counts for something.

 

Specifically about that play, Tyree was the reason that play was made. Yes, Eli evaded a sack, which is what "good" QB's do. He then followed that up with a crappy pass in which he was bailed out. Let's not also forget that on the very next play, Eli was in fact sacked. That to me is an indication that Eli got lucky and not that he's "great". Yes, sometimes it is better to be lucky than good... but you don't judge "fame" on luck.

 

"... championship performance should offset a lack of regular season statistics", that to me is how you make the "Hall of Fame", the "Hall of Meh".

[Oriole8159 86]

 

Specifically about that play, Tyree was the reason that play was made. Yes, Eli evaded a sack, which is what "good" QB's do. He then followed that up with a crappy pass in which he was bailed out. Let's not also forget that on the very next play, Eli was in fact sacked. That to me is an indication that Eli got lucky and not that he's "great". Yes, sometimes it is better to be lucky than good... but you don't judge "fame" on luck.

 

"... championship performance should offset a lack of regular season statistics", that to me is how you make the "Hall of Fame", the "Hall of Meh".

he still led them to a TD that drive to win the game, so what happened the very next play isn't any more relevant than what happened every subsequent play after, so not sure what you're trying to prove with that point.

 

and I personally think "meh" can also be just as equally applied to players that have better statistical numbers but never elevated their own/team's performance when it mattered most. the ultimate goal of professional sports (or at least what it should be) is to win, not put up individual stats, so I'm not impressed by seeing QBs that put up better regular season numbers but who routinely cave in the playoffs when it matters.

 

that's just my opinion.

[seafoam1 1,879]

 

QB's have always been judged by wins and especially SB wins. It's not the only measuring stick, but it is the most important.

 

Also, he has that + 50k yards which is a group of 5. You dismiss it like it's not special. If it's not then why aren't there more than 5?

 

 

Lastly, I don't think he the greatest QB ever. I don't think anyone is saying that. However, he is not mediocre or bad. He's a really good QB who has had a great career. I believe he is HOF worthy or at least in the discussion. You saying he is bad can't be defended by comparing him to a QB that you think is bad that hasn't had even close to the accomplishments that Eli has. It's laughable.

Granted, he was the QB of a team that has won 2 superbowls. You can't take that away. Those superbowls bought him the opportunity to stay around in NY for a long time. That is what allowed him to get 50k yards or whatever he has. I fully admit to not knowing the criteria to get into the HOF. If it's being the QB on a team that has won 2 superbowls, then he should be in. But the rest of his career, is mediocre at best but mostly not good.

 

If not for those 2 superbowls, he would have been out of NY long ago.

 

I only see 2 arguments to be made for him getting in the HOF.

1. QB of a team that won 2 superbowls

2. Longevity in the league

[jrokh 569]

When you write QB of a team that won two super bowls you are intentionally or even unintentionally diminishing Eli's role in the winning of the Super Bowls. He was the Super Bowl MVP both times and he beat arguably the greatest dynasty in NFL history twice. Context matters

[Maulers1973 117]

Granted, he was the QB of a team that has won 2 superbowls. You can't take that away. Those superbowls bought him the opportunity to stay around in NY for a long time. That is what allowed him to get 50k yards or whatever he has. I fully admit to not knowing the criteria to get into the HOF. If it's being the QB on a team that has won 2 superbowls, then he should be in. But the rest of his career, is mediocre at best but mostly not good.

 

If not for those 2 superbowls, he would have been out of NY long ago.

 

I only see 2 arguments to be made for him getting in the HOF.

1. QB of a team that won 2 superbowls

2. Longevity in the league

 

He's 7th all time in passing yards. He's 7th all time in passing TD's. That means there are only 6 people ahead of him. Are you only going to allow 4 QB into the hall? For goodness sake. What does a guy have to do to get in??????

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

 

He's 7th all time in passing yards. He's 7th all time in passing TD's. That means there are only 6 people ahead of him. Are you only going to allow 4 QB into the hall? For goodness sake. What does a guy have to do to get in??????

 

The counting stats are simply a product of him playing the bulk of his career in the new "passer friendly" environment of the NFL. In 10 years, he probably won't even be in the top 20.

[TBayXXXVII 2,117]

he still led them to a TD that drive to win the game, so what happened the very next play isn't any more relevant than what happened every subsequent play after, so not sure what you're trying to prove with that point.

 

and I personally think "meh" can also be just as equally applied to players that have better statistical numbers but never elevated their own/team's performance when it mattered most. the ultimate goal of professional sports (or at least what it should be) is to win, not put up individual stats, so I'm not impressed by seeing QBs that put up better regular season numbers but who routinely cave in the playoffs when it matters.

 

that's just my opinion.

 

No one player, in the NFL, can carry his team to a championship. If that were the case, then every year, the team with the best player in league would win the Super Bowl.

[Oriole8159 86]

 

No one player, in the NFL, can carry his team to a championship. If that were the case, then every year, the team with the best player in league would win the Super Bowl.

I am aware of that, but certain players do raise their games in clutch situations and some don't.

but when a guy raises his game and twice helps take down the biggest dynasty in football, which one year includes probably the best overall pure team ever, then that counts for something.

[Maulers1973 117]

 

The counting stats are simply a product of him playing the bulk of his career in the new "passer friendly" environment of the NFL. In 10 years, he probably won't even be in the top 20.

 

 

 

 

I have no idea what your criteria for the HOF would be. You have discounted individual stats. You have discounted leading his team to SB wins. You know he's also 12th all time in wins among all QB to ever play the game. Again, if you're not putting him in then who would you put in? Nobody, because you have basically eliminated all reasonable criteria for judging a QB.

[seafoam1 1,879]

 

He's 7th all time in passing yards. He's 7th all time in passing TD's. That means there are only 6 people ahead of him. Are you only going to allow 4 QB into the hall? For goodness sake. What does a guy have to do to get in??????

 

Vinnie Testaverde is top 15 in both of those categories you mention.

 

Manning is like in the top 3 of interceptions in the last 8 or so years. You throw the ball that much you are going to get a lot of yards and touchdowns. You also kill drives when throwing that many interceptions. Manning's win / loss record is 118-104. Barely over .500 for that many games.

 

Tom Brady is 217-63 <<<<------------ HOF

Ben Rothlisberger 145-69 <<<<------ HOF

.Aaron Rodgers 103-54 <<<<<-------- HOF

 

Even Joe Flacco has a better win % than manning 99-65 <<<<------- Not HOF at this time

 

This is the type of differentiation you need to classify who should go to the HOF. It's not the hall of players who played QB on a team that won a superbowl.

[seafoam1 1,879]

 

 

When you write QB of a team that won two super bowls you are intentionally or even unintentionally diminishing Eli's role in the winning of the Super Bowls. He was the Super Bowl MVP both times and he beat arguably the greatest dynasty in NFL history twice. Context matters

 

Ok. So he is the starting QB, undisputed MVP, main leader almighty Eli Manning of a team that went 118-104 in his time while being that hero.

 

Like I said, if the criteria to getting into the HOF is being a QB on a team that won 2 superbowls, then I completely agree that he should be in.

 

And Tyree should have been the MVP of that one game because if he doesn't make that catch with under a minute to go, then there was a very good chance the Giants lose that superbowl. And there would be zero chance we would even be having this discussion.

[jrokh 569]

I completely understand your position that Eli isn't a Hall of Famer. Your arguments however are found wanting... When defending a position using examples like If you take away X or Y Should have happened, you probably want to start over and find a different method...

[seafoam1 1,879]

I completely understand your position that Eli isn't a Hall of Famer. Your arguments however are found wanting... When defending a position using examples like If you take away X or Y Should have happened, you probably want to start over and find a different method...

Ok. I am saying that Tyree saved that game for the team, I'm not intending to use the "if they didn't win" as the main point. I put that there because that was a very defining moment in why we are even discussing this.

 

Eli had a few decent years. I'm just thinking that I guess I really don't know what the criteria is to get into the HOF so am making a contrarian argument because I'm trying to understand what the criteria is.

 

Even if folks here see his career as really good overall, which I only think he had about 2 or 3 good years and 1 great post season, I thought the HOF was for elite players over many years.

[weepaws 2,460]

So we don't count the two Super Bowls for Brady that where won my the Kicker making too game winning FG?

 

I would say those two fg saved the day for the Brady's.

 

I don't know if Manning will receive the amount of votes needed too make it to the HOF.

 

But if I was beating on it I think eventually he will make it in.

[seafoam1 1,879]

So we don't count the two Super Bowls for Brady that where won my the Kicker making too game winning FG?

 

I would say those two fg saved the day for the Brady's.

 

I don't know if Manning will receive the amount of votes needed too make it to the HOF.

 

But if I was beating on it I think eventually he will make it in.

 

Everybody's superbowls count. The discussion is, is that all that matters to get into the HOF? In fact, I would argue that is the only reason why Manning would even be considered.

 

Manning's win / loss record is 118-104. Barely over .500 for that many games.

Just comparison/s to this:

Tom Brady is 217-63

Ben Rothlisberger 145-69

Aaron Rodgers 103-54

And I only brought these records up because someone mentioned I was understating his value to the team by phrasing his role on the team as a "QB who played on 2 superbowl winning teams". Or something like that.

[Ray_T 591]

I see your points, but numbers have to say something about admittance in the HOF. I wonder if Johnson or Dilfer won 2 and Manning only 1 what the narrative would be? Is that number '2' the deciding factor? Let's look at it like this: if he won zero superbowls, there is no consideration at all for HOF. If he won 1 superbowl, I think he ends up being viewed as a Dilfer/Johnson type with longevity on his side. No HOF. He is brought into the conversation because of the second superbowl. It just needs to be determined if that is enough to get you in.I looked at a couple random lists for top 100 QBs in NFL history. One of them put him around #70 and it was mentioned that was only because of his second SB win and his 2011 post season. If that is the criteria to get in, then that is the criteria to get in.

 

Like I said earlier, he has Peyton and Archie in his corner to push the agenda down the line.

 

 

Here's a write-up from someone who did a top 100 QB ranking last year on Manning:

46. Eli Manning (2004-Active)

I could write a book on Eli Manning. He’s a perplexing case; according to adjusted passer rating, Manning’s 98 mark (100 is average) means he’s actually been a below-average quarterback since joining the league, yet he’s probably going to make the Hall of Fame one day, due largely to his two Super Bowl rings. Beating Bill Belichick twice in two attempts in the NFL’s biggest game is an amazing accomplishment; missing the playoffs in six of the last seven seasons is not so impressive.

Manning will crack the top 10 in passing yards next season (he’s currently at 44,191), and his 294 touchdowns means he has a good chance at 60,000 yards and 375 touchdowns when he’s finished. Manning has never led the league in any statistical category except interceptions – three times – and he’s thrown at least 14 of them every year since 2005 except one. In fact, Manning seemed to be on his way out of New York after a dismal 27-pick output in ’13, but then the Giants drafted Odell Beckham, and Manning has all but been revived – he’s averaged 4,423 passing yards, 32 touchdowns, and a 92.9 passer rating since.

Manning probably hasn’t been as good as his 2004 draft counterparts, Ben Roethlisberger and Philip Rivers, and you could even argue (as I will) that Tony Romo has been better. But would Giants fans trade Manning for any of those others? I can’t imagine why they would, considering Manning has led them to two titles, and that’s really why you play the game.

If you are interested, This guy has some pretty interesting takes on the QBs he ranked.

http://www.swartzsports.news/power-ranking-100-best-quarterbacks-nfl-history-part-iv-10-1/

the article does not say much that I do not agree with.

 

Like I said earlier, a West coast offense does tend to utilize the short passing game a lot more, and as such, I'd say that the completion percentage will be higher for QB's in that type of system.

 

As Eli didnt really play in that type of system you have to ask yourself if it is fair to compare the stats in that way.

 

certainly the yardage is there.

 

The superbowl rings are there.

 

It seems like the other factors is what this is based on. I'm not saying those other factors dont matter. They do. but you have to put it in context and compare apples to apples.

 

I'm not a real fan of Eli Manning. But I do think he deserves to be in the conversation. I'm not outright saying hes a HOF QB, but if we don't even consider him at all I would suggest that would be a mistake.

[seafoam1 1,879]

the article does not say much that I do not agree with.

 

Like I said earlier, a West coast offense does tend to utilize the short passing game a lot more, and as such, I'd say that the completion percentage will be higher for QB's in that type of system.

 

As Eli didnt really play in that type of system you have to ask yourself if it is fair to compare the stats in that way.

 

certainly the yardage is there.

 

The superbowl rings are there.

 

It seems like the other factors is what this is based on. I'm not saying those other factors dont matter. They do. but you have to put it in context and compare apples to apples.

 

I'm not a real fan of Eli Manning. But I do think he deserves to be in the conversation. I'm not outright saying hes a HOF QB, but if we don't even consider him at all I would suggest that would be a mistake.

I think he is a great example of HOF criteria discussion. I would love to hear behind the door conversations from ex players on this. I think most things we hear from players on the radio or TV are treated with kindness as they don't want to be called out as being too harsh.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

 

Specifically about that play, Tyree was the reason that play was made. Yes, Eli evaded a sack, which is what "good" QB's do. He then followed that up with a crappy pass in which he was bailed out. Let's not also forget that on the very next play, Eli was in fact sacked. That to me is an indication that Eli got lucky and not that he's "great". Yes, sometimes it is better to be lucky than good... but you don't judge "fame" on luck.

 

"... championship performance should offset a lack of regular season statistics", that to me is how you make the "Hall of Fame", the "Hall of Meh".

I guess the 3rd and 10 he hit before that and the 3rd and 11 after Tyree were luck too

[seafoam1 1,879]

the article does not say much that I do not agree with.

 

Like I said earlier, a West coast offense does tend to utilize the short passing game a lot more, and as such, I'd say that the completion percentage will be higher for QB's in that type of system.

 

As Eli didnt really play in that type of system you have to ask yourself if it is fair to compare the stats in that way.

 

certainly the yardage is there.

 

The superbowl rings are there.

 

It seems like the other factors is what this is based on. I'm not saying those other factors dont matter. They do. but you have to put it in context and compare apples to apples.

 

I'm not a real fan of Eli Manning. But I do think he deserves to be in the conversation. I'm not outright saying hes a HOF QB, but if we don't even consider him at all I would suggest that would be a mistake.

So just your opinion, do you think that guy's ranking of manning at #46 is fair? It's actually fairly high if you think about all the QBs to come and go over the years.

[Oriole8159 86]

I guess the 3rd and 10 he hit before that and the 3rd and 11 after Tyree were luck too

good catch.

I was writing my points while at work today so was working mostly on memory, so thanks for taking the time to find those.

[seafoam1 1,879]

I guess the 3rd and 10 he hit before that and the 3rd and 11 after Tyree were luck too

The guy's record is 118-104 for his career as starting QB. He had a couple good years and 1 very good post season. The giants would have most likely lost if Tyree didn't catch that crappy pass. But he did. The rest of his career he sucked.

 

He is only a HOFer if the criteria to get in is a QB that starts on a team that wins two superbowls during his career.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

The guy's record is 118-104 for his career as starting QB. He had a couple good years and 1 very good post season. The giants would have most likely lost if Tyree didn't catch that crappy pass. But he did. The rest of his career he sucked.

 

He is only a HOFer if the criteria to get in is a QB that starts on a team that wins two superbowls during his career.

Or throws for50k and is 7th all time in TD's (and counting) and has the record for most 4th quarter TD's in a season. And not just two rings, but two fourth quarter game winning drives for those rings. And two overtime wins in the NFC championship, both on the road. Clutch.

[seafoam1 1,879]

Or throws for50k and is 7th all time in TD's (and counting) and has the record for most 4th quarter TD's in a season. And not just two rings, but two fourth quarter game winning drives for those rings. And two overtime wins in the NFC championship, both on the road. Clutch.

Testaverde is up there for TDs. There are tons of QBs with big 4th quarter drives. If it all comes down to superbowls, and that is the criteria, then that is the criteria. He is in then.

 

I actually thought HOF was about the career of a player, but if not, that's cool. Whatever it is.

 

I don't hear much about his interceptions. I mean he is like one of the leaders over the past 8 years isn't he? I wonder how many of those were in the 4th quarter of games.

 

Mediocre players that throw a lot get a lot of yards and a lot of interceptions.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

Testaverde is up there for TDs. There are tons of QBs with big 4th quarter drives. If it all comes down to superbowls, and that is the criteria, then that is the criteria. He is in then.

 

I actually thought HOF was about the career of a player, but if not, that's cool. Whatever it is.

 

I don't hear much about his interceptions. I mean he is like one of the leaders over the past 8 years isn't he? I wonder how many of those were in the 4th quarter of games.

Favre is the all time leader in interceptions. Testeverde is the 4th. Eli is 18th.. Eli is 7th in TD's., will be 6th at least when he's done playing. VT is 15th. Don't compare the two.

[seafoam1 1,879]

Favre is the all time leader in interceptions. Testeverde is the 4th. Eli is 18th.. Eli is 7th in TD's., will be 6th at least when he's done playing. VT is 15th. Don't compare the two.

18th of all time. Out of how many QBs in league history? And what ratio of interceptions to TDs does he have? I'll bet waaay more than half. He has sucked through most of his career.

 

All he does is throw crap up there and pray someone can make a play on it.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

18th of all time. Out of how many QBs in league history? And what ratio of interceptions to TDs does he have? I'll bet waaay more than half. He has sucked through most of his career.

 

All he does is throw crap up there and pray someone can make a play on it.

You're right. He's been surrounded by all pro talent, especially on offense. Just chucks it up. Amazed the Giants paid him the money they did. Most anyone can chuck it up.

[seafoam1 1,879]

You're right. He's been surrounded by all pro talent, especially on offense. Just chucks it up. Amazed the Giants paid him the money they did. Most anyone can chuck it up.

Ok. I took that too far for sure. ☺ I think it's fun they don't have a clear cut definition. But the trouble is when a player lasts for so long in the league, what do you pick and choose to decide on?

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

Ok. I took that too far for sure. ☺ I think it's fun they don't have a clear cut definition. But the trouble is when a player lasts for so long in the league, what do you pick and choose to decide on?

Well, if he's top ten in yards, TD's and rings I think I'll pick them.

[seafoam1 1,879]

Well, if he's top ten in yards, TD's and rings I think I'll pick them.

I wouldn't put you down for doing it either. I'm probably on the other side but I'm no expert. If you get a chance, take a look at the link I posted on the previous page of this thread of some dude who posted his top 100 QBs in NFL history. I think he had manning at like 47 or something. Which is pretty high. But I liked his take on players in the list.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

I wouldn't put you down for doing it either. I'm probably on the other side but I'm no expert. If you get a chance, take a look at the link I posted on the previous page of this thread of some dude who posted his top 100 QBs in NFL history. I think he had manning at like 47 or something. Which is pretty high. But I liked his take on players in the list.

Will do. Thanks

[minuteofdecay 5]

https://nflcomparisons.com/brett-favre-vs-eli-manning-comparison/

 

Look at how close his stats are to Brett Favre (when you account out for the extra 100 games). The only noticeable difference is the 3 mvps, but eli has an extra super bowl win. Most everyone agrees with Favre being a HoF, why no love for eli?

 

Bold prediction eli to Cleveland next year with Payton in the front office. They win a super bowl he becomes more loved then LeBron James.

[minuteofdecay 5]

https://nflcomparisons.com/brett-favre-vs-eli-manning-comparison/

 

Look at how close his stats are to Brett Favre (when you account out for the extra 100 games). The only noticeable difference is the 3 mvps, but eli has an extra super bowl win. Most everyone agrees with Favre being a HoF, why no love for eli?

 

Bold prediction eli to Cleveland next year with Payton in the front office. They win a super bowl he becomes more loved then LeBron James.

[Ray_T 591]

So just your opinion, do you think that guy's ranking of manning at #46 is fair? It's actually fairly high if you think about all the QBs to come and go over the years.

honestly, I'd have to see the list.

 

I have not seen the list so I cannot (at this point) say it's fair (or not)

 

Normally I'd go and create my own, or research and find his list, but I'm pretty busy with other things in my life that need to take priority over fantasy football.

 

All I"m gonna say is he shouldnt be discounted as a HOF candidate. I'd think it would be wrong for him not to even be nominated. At this point that's as far as I am willing to go. If I were to go further it would require work and time that I do not have.

 

Keep in mind, I am not 100% convinced he belongs in the HOF. All I am saying is you shouldnt discount his accomplishments. I think it's fair to say he is a candidate.

[seafoam1 1,879]

honestly, I'd have to see the list.

 

I have not seen the list so I cannot (at this point) say it's fair (or not)

 

Normally I'd go and create my own, or research and find his list, but I'm pretty busy with other things in my life that need to take priority over fantasy football.

 

All I"m gonna say is he shouldnt be discounted as a HOF candidate. I'd think it would be wrong for him not to even be nominated. At this point that's as far as I am willing to go. If I were to go further it would require work and time that I do not have.

 

Keep in mind, I am not 100% convinced he belongs in the HOF. All I am saying is you shouldnt discount his accomplishments. I think it's fair to say he is a candidate.

It's not that big of a deal. I just think his skill set is so far behind certain others QBs that the distinction is obvious when it comes to being elite. Therefore, no HOF for you Eli.

[sirensong 111]

...he beat arguably the greatest dynasty in NFL history twice. Context matters

 

yes, context matters. eli couldn't produce in either game, and the only reason that the giants didn't get blown out twice was that the defense played lights out against one of the greatest offenses in NFL history, twice.

[jrokh 569]

 

yes, context matters. eli couldn't produce in either game, and the only reason that the giants didn't get blown out twice was that the defense played lights out against one of the greatest offenses in NFL history, twice.

Super Bowl XLII: Eli- 255 2TD 1 INT: result- Superbowl MVP

Superbowl XLVI: Eli- 296 1TD 0 INT: Result Superbowl MVP

 

So in Fact, Eli Not only produced in both games he won the MVP, twice. The defense played great, but not as great as Eli. These arguments keep getting worse. There is plenty of material to make the case against Eli that one doesn't need to resort to comparing him to Andy Dalton or inexplicably arguing that he didn't produce in the superbowls.

[seafoam1 1,879]

Super Bowl XLII: Eli- 255 2TD 1 INT: result- Superbowl MVP

Superbowl XLVI: Eli- 296 1TD 0 INT: Result Superbowl MVP

 

So in Fact, Eli Not only produced in both games he won the MVP, twice. The defense played great, but not as great as Eli. These arguments keep getting worse. There is plenty of material to make the case against Eli that one doesn't need to resort to comparing him to Andy Dalton or inexplicably arguing that he didn't produce in the superbowls.

The QB of the winning team is an easy give for the award because you can't give it to the whole defense.

[jrokh 569]

Agreed, but If I were making the case against Eli I would want the voters to be reminded of the Super Bowls as little as humanly possible.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

I recall a QB who won a Super Bowl and he threw for 145 yards and one TD. Eli had that beat in the 4th quarter of his first super bowl. The one he was losing twice in the 4th quarter. Patriot fans are so bitter.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,656]

 

yes, context matters. eli couldn't produce in either game, and the only reason that the giants didn't get blown out twice was that the defense played lights out against one of the greatest offenses in NFL history, twice.

Wow. Just saying stuff now.