Why socialism will never happen in the USA

[The Real timschochet 6,769]

I get accused around here of socialism and Marxism a lot. It’s kind of amusing in a way. I am certainly what most would call a liberal Democrat. I am very much woke and socially very liberal, perhaps extreme in some areas. My views on immigration, including illegal immigration, tend to be very libertarian. 
 

But economic socialism? That is, the Marxist theory of redistributing wealth and/or the state controlling the means of production? That’s a nonstarter for me. Nor do I believe in the “soft” Democratic socialism of Bernie Sanders and AOC. I’m for a social safety net. I’m for regulating certain industries to help deal with crises like climate change, and future and current public health issues. But beyond that government should stay out of private business, especially small business, as much as possible. 
 

And you guys need to stop worrying so much because socialism is NEVER going to happen here no matter how many AOCs crawl out of the woodwork. Here’s why, 2 reasons: 

1. it doesn’t work. I challenge anyone to point to a socialist society that ever produced anything other than misery or economic failure. If you want some good arguments as to why it doesn’t work, read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. Rand is a flawed writer, bombastic, absolutist, and far too eager to confuse liberalism with leftism (a trait that is also all too prevalent in this forum) but at her core she makes the best arguments for capitalism and against collectivism that I have ever read, why is why her novel remains timeless and an essential read for any thinking American. 
 

2. immigrants to this country don’t want socialism. That includes undocumented immigrants BTW. I find this so ironic because so many conservatives seem to believe that immigrants are brought here to vote Democrat. Sheer nonsense. Nearly every immigrant I meet (and in my field I meet a lot) is an economic conservative. They’ve seen what socialism has done to Venezuela, Cuba, Vietnam, Turkey, etc., and they don’t want it! They came here to escape it. Short term they may vote Democrat out of expediency and because of the perception that the current Republican Party, led by Trump, doesn’t want them here. Long term they will vote Republican. The more immigrants that come here, the more Republican this nation will be. I get that and despite the fact that I disagree with conservatives on so many social issues, I welcome these immigrants anyhow, even if it means Republican dominance for decades to come. Because they are salt of the Earth, the hardest working, best people as a whole I’ve ever encountered. 
 

So stop worrying so much about Marxism. Ain’t never gonna happen. Not here. 

[RLLD 4,230]

I always appreciate your point of view, and I think your points are well-founded.  I am not inclined to challenge you on them.

I will simply say this.

Millions of Jews are ashes in Europe because they refused to believe it could happen.......   so I might not be all that relaxed when it comes to an ideology known to be unfavorable to human life...

[The Real timschochet 6,769]

14 minutes ago, RLLD said:

I always appreciate your point of view, and I think your points are well-founded.  I am not inclined to challenge you on them.

I will simply say this.

Millions of Jews are ashes in Europe because they refused to believe it could happen.......   so I might not be all that relaxed when it comes to an ideology known to be unfavorable to human life...

Sure, and those ashes include my great-grandparents, great aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. Everyone on my dad’s side of the family except for him and his parents and one aunt. 
 

But we could spend thousands of hours discussing the causes of that occurrence, and of the millions that died in Communist Russia, China, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc. I don’t believe we have the conditions for such an occurrence here. Short of a crisis such as the aftermath of a nuclear war or terrible pandemic (think Black Death, not Covid) I don’t think we ever will. So chin up! 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,438]

Harvard gets 100’s of millions of dollars from the government every year. Why is the government paying tuition for students to attend a school with a 50 BILLION dollar endowment that’s tax free? I’d say that some form of socialism. There are many, many more examples.  

[The Real timschochet 6,769]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Harvard gets 100’s of millions of dollars from the government every year. Why is the government paying tuition for students to attend a school with a 50 BILLION dollar endowment that’s tax free? I’d say that some form of socialism. There are many, many more examples.  

You’re misapplying the term. Government endowments and funds for universities has been going on for decades, even centuries. There are both pluses and minuses to it. But it has little of anything to do with socialism. 

Your post, however, is representative of a problem I have with conservative rhetoric on this issue. Any expenditure by the government for anything that conservatives don’t like (for example, money to Harvard, or for undocumented immigrants, or to Planned Parenthood, etc) automatically becomes “socialism”. Socialism isn’t the spending of taxpayer money; it’s a permanent redivision of assets. That’s not what’s going on here. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,438]

8 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

You’re misapplying the term. Government endowments and funds for universities has been going on for decades, even centuries. There are both pluses and minuses to it. But it has little of anything to do with socialism. 

Your post, however, is representative of a problem I have with conservative rhetoric on this issue. Any expenditure by the government for anything that conservatives don’t like (for example, money to Harvard, or for undocumented immigrants, or to Planned Parenthood, etc) automatically becomes “socialism”. Socialism isn’t the spending of taxpayer money; it’s a permanent redivision of assets. That’s not what’s going on here. 

Huh? Where do you think the assets that are going to Harvard are coming from? They are coming from our assets and being diverted to them.  Well, our former assets.  Like I said, there are many examples. I love aircraft carriers and fighter jets. That does not mean all the money that goes to defense is necessary or even fair. 

[The Real timschochet 6,769]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Huh? Where do you think the assets that are going to Harvard are coming from? They are coming from our assets and being diverted to them.  Well, our former assets.  Like I said, there are many examples. I love aircraft carriers and fighter jets. That does not mean all the money that goes to defense is necessary or even fair. 

But if I take your argument to its logical conclusion it means that no taxpayer money should ever be spent on anything or it’s socialism. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,438]

11 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

But if I take your argument to its logical conclusion it means that no taxpayer money should ever be spent on anything or it’s socialism. 

It shouldn’t be wasted or given to institutions that don’t need it that have been able to amass a fortune more than the gdp of many countries due to the government funding and allowing that fortune to grow. 50 Billion? It’s time they walked on their own.  We have taken them this far.  I could see some grants for research. That’s it. Not  tuition. So yeah, I’m gonna go ahead and call this socialism.  

[The Real timschochet 6,769]

24 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

It shouldn’t be wasted or given to institutions that don’t need it that have been able to amass a fortune more than the gdp of many countries due to the government funding and allowing that fortune to grow. 50 Billion? It’s time they walked on their own.  We have taken them this far.  I could see some grants for research. That’s it. Not  tuition. So yeah, I’m gonna go ahead and call this socialism.  

I will not because that’s not what the word means. 

[jonmx 2,429]

Whatever you call it, all the pieces are in place for an authoritarian government.   

The three letter organizations have grown to millions of employees.  All these organizations are arming themselves to the hilt. These organization have all kinds of power to abuse individual rights, but yet the employees all have immunity.  Individuals have no recourse without Presidential action, and good luck getting that.  These organizations are getting very cozy with massive corporate interests and these corporations are doing the dirty work of the government in exchange for government favoritism.   Media is in bed with the government.   Big tech is in bed with the government and they are allowing monopolies.  Big Pharma is in bed with the government.  Of course military contractors are in bed with government.  Financial institutions are in bed with the government. 

Most all of the infrastructure is in place for authoritarianism.  The government can track us, spy on us, cut off our finances, censor us, raid our homes on dubious warrants.  The genius of our country was that power was decentralized and there were proper and effective checks and balances and limits on government authority.  With the move towards centralizing power we have lost the checks and balances which kept our government honest.  

 

[jonmx 2,429]

When the government demonized and declares war on half the population, it is no longer a free country.   The US is no longer a free society.  The federal government has built a domestic army and are pointing the guns at its citizens. 

[iam90sbaby 2,611]

OP is ate up 

[seafoam1 3,031]

1 hour ago, iam90sbaby said:

OP is ate up 

TDS causes a lot of pain in these people. 

[Flipper 61]

2 hours ago, jonmx said:

When the government demonized and declares war on half the population, it is no longer a free country.   The US is no longer a free society.  The federal government has built a domestic army and are pointing the guns at its citizens. 

I am almost aligned with this idea except I don't think our current military would attack it's own citizens.  It may be better odds to bet they planned a civil war to permit martial law which would give them a chance to swap-out the current military with new recruits over time or just call in the UN ...

[jonmx 2,429]

3 hours ago, Flipper said:

I am almost aligned with this idea except I don't think our current military would attack it's own citizens.  It may be better odds to bet they planned a civil war to permit martial law which would give them a chance to swap-out the current military with new recruits over time or just call in the UN ...

I am not talking about the military.  I am talking about the 4-5 million employees of the executive branch.   The IRS, the FBI, the NSA, the CIA, HHS, Homeland Security, etc.  All these departments, even HHS, are quiety arming themselves with powerful assault weapons and ammo.  All these employees are given immunity when carrying out there job.  Citizens only recourse is to go through internal agency review with heavy bias in favor of the agency.  These agencies are all getting in bed with mega corporations especially big tech at heavily censoring millions and millions of people..  These organizations operate in secrecy and any questions from Congress are met with a brick wall hiding behind security clearances.  Lots of additional tools through the Homeland security act allow these agencies far reaching powers to abuse the rights of citizens.   The biggest criminals who are targetted are whistleblowers.  

[jonmx 2,429]

Authoritarian-loving leftists.  

[Cloaca du jour 2,150]

On 1/12/2024 at 2:40 PM, The Real timschochet said:

I get accused around here of socialism and Marxism a lot. It’s kind of amusing in a way. I am certainly what most would call a liberal Democrat. I am very much woke and socially very liberal, perhaps extreme in some areas. My views on immigration, including illegal immigration, tend to be very libertarian. 
 

But economic socialism? That is, the Marxist theory of redistributing wealth and/or the state controlling the means of production? That’s a nonstarter for me. Nor do I believe in the “soft” Democratic socialism of Bernie Sanders and AOC. I’m for a social safety net. I’m for regulating certain industries to help deal with crises like climate change, and future and current public health issues. But beyond that government should stay out of private business, especially small business, as much as possible. 
 

And you guys need to stop worrying so much because socialism is NEVER going to happen here no matter how many AOCs crawl out of the woodwork. Here’s why, 2 reasons: 

1. it doesn’t work. I challenge anyone to point to a socialist society that ever produced anything other than misery or economic failure. If you want some good arguments as to why it doesn’t work, read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. Rand is a flawed writer, bombastic, absolutist, and far too eager to confuse liberalism with leftism (a trait that is also all too prevalent in this forum) but at her core she makes the best arguments for capitalism and against collectivism that I have ever read, why is why her novel remains timeless and an essential read for any thinking American. 
 

2. immigrants to this country don’t want socialism. That includes undocumented immigrants BTW. I find this so ironic because so many conservatives seem to believe that immigrants are brought here to vote Democrat. Sheer nonsense. Nearly every immigrant I meet (and in my field I meet a lot) is an economic conservative. They’ve seen what socialism has done to Venezuela, Cuba, Vietnam, Turkey, etc., and they don’t want it! They came here to escape it. Short term they may vote Democrat out of expediency and because of the perception that the current Republican Party, led by Trump, doesn’t want them here. Long term they will vote Republican. The more immigrants that come here, the more Republican this nation will be. I get that and despite the fact that I disagree with conservatives on so many social issues, I welcome these immigrants anyhow, even if it means Republican dominance for decades to come. Because they are salt of the Earth, the hardest working, best people as a whole I’ve ever encountered. 
 

So stop worrying so much about Marxism. Ain’t never gonna happen. Not here. 

Tldgaf