Buying a House vs Renting

[Maximum Overkill 1,988]

2 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

I assume their argument is that higher demand for low-rent housing is driving up rents at all levels, but it doesn’t work like that.

New construction doesn't yield higher rent? 

There's a housing crisis, right? 

[Jose M 125]

2 hours ago, mmmmm...beer said:

Listen I'm not saying buying a house is horrible, all I'm saying is I'm seeing more and more people with a lot of money say they'll never own a home.

I came from nothing... riding on the coat tails  of smarter people.  I'm still learning.

There are many avenues I've seen.  There is no perfect way for everyone.

I've bought and sold 4 houses, and maybe haven't seen my last. All I'm saying is I'm doing research.

I think more rich people are not buying homes because there has been a shift from "settling down" to "seeing the world" and "more life experiences" during retirement.  It likely doesn't make sense to be saddled with property if you aren't planning to use that property the vast majority of the time.  Same for a lot of early retirees in the FIRE community.  One of the guys I bought one of my homes from was going to travel the country in his half a million dollar RV for a few years.  I'm the opposite, I want to settle down.  Vacationing across the world once or twice a year is plenty for me. 

Another example of why it's a "depends on your situation" math problem.  Anyone saying otherwise is full of it.   

[Jose M 125]

8 minutes ago, BeachGuy23 said:

Taxes and upkeep are all included in rent.

And everyone has said if you move a lot renting is better.   But please, how often did Peafoam physically move from 25-50?

And then you forget that when the mortgage is paid off you have a very cheap place to live and a way to massively increase your investments.  Poor Peafoam is dropping thousands month after month till he dies.

Terrible money management. 

Which is it?   "Everyone said if you move a lot renting is better" or "Terrible money management"  JFC you have Tourette's or something?

 

[BeachGuy23 642]

Just now, Jose M said:

Which is it?   "Everyone said if you move a lot renting is better" or "Terrible money management"  JFC you have Tourette's or something?

 

The BE is every couple of years.

No chance someone with Peafoams clearly limited intellect is in demand to move a lot.

 

[Jose M 125]

6 minutes ago, BeachGuy23 said:

The BE is every couple of years.

No chance someone with Peafoams clearly limited intellect is in demand to move a lot.

 

Most people figure the BE closer to 5 years as a rule of thumb and is heavily market dependent.  So glad we're back to it's a "depends on your situation" math problem tho.  You can shut up now.  

[Hardcore troubadour 15,429]

Rent if it works for you. Buy if it works for you. Just don’t do what Beachgay did, buy a tiny house in a shitburgh of a filth city like Baltimore.  

[TimHauck 2,870]

29 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

New construction doesn't yield higher rent? 

There's a housing crisis, right? 

Higher than what?  It will generally be priced in line with similar units.  But overall, new construction can actually lower prices by increasing supply.

There’s an “affordable” housing crisis in larger metro areas. There is a lot of new construction but it’s focused on the higher end, which isn’t really impacted by what’s happening on the lower end.   Although some would actually argue there’s not an affordable housing crisis because there is plenty of inventory available in places with limited jobs.

[seafoam1 3,023]

59 minutes ago, Jose M said:

I think more rich people are not buying homes because there has been a shift from "settling down" to "seeing the world" and "more life experiences" during retirement.  It likely doesn't make sense to be saddled with property if you aren't planning to use that property the vast majority of the time.  Same for a lot of early retirees in the FIRE community.  One of the guys I bought one of my homes from was going to travel the country in his half a million dollar RV for a few years.  I'm the opposite, I want to settle down.  Vacationing across the world once or twice a year is plenty for me. 

Another example of why it's a "depends on your situation" math problem.  Anyone saying otherwise is full of it.   

Let me fill you in on how this all started. I mentioned once a while back that I rent, and worms and mdcack attacked me. Trying to get me somehow. I explained that my last two jobs, the 1st of which I got yearly contracts on and moved from state to state, including a 2 year stint in Canada,  probably 6 times in about 15 year time span. That was my 20s and 30s.

Then, when I was living in Illinois, I got a job offer in a different field with a company called Accenture.I had to move to Florida to take the job.Then 3 years later after I was moved to the consulting branch, I could live anywhere I wanted as long as I had an airport I could access because I flew to client sites 100% of the time. So then I moved another 6-7 times over the next 21 years. Mostly, because I wanted to. I have enjoyed living from Boston to KC to Albuquerque, etc.. North and south and in the middle. My girlfriend who I met at ACN 15 years ago has been in the same situation. Same job. Then in my 50's.I retired. She's 20 years younger than me and still wants to work. Makes sense. We live in an area where the property taxes alone are higher, equal to, or only a little less than our rent that we pay. Property taxes alone.

We love our lifestyle. We could afford just about any home we want. Neither one of us wants, or needs, a house to take care of. We love our place. I won't get into what we made on a yearly basis, but we each individually have been blessed on our yearly incomes.  Our investments take good care of us, and we feel unencumbered. 

I told worms this in a more succint way but he for some reason thinks it's cutting me down by saying I rent. Him and mdcack both. 

Focking weird obsessions by them. 

 

[TimHauck 2,870]

2 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

We live in an area where the property taxes alone are higher, equal to, or only a little less than our rent that we pay. Property taxes alone. 

We love our lifestyle. Neither one of us wants to, or needs, a house to take care of. We love our place.

Moving often and not wanting to take care of a house are good reasons to rent.

But stop comparing the rent on your 2 bedroom apartment to the taxes on a 4+ bedroom house.

[seafoam1 3,023]

1 minute ago, TimHauck said:

Moving often and not wanting to take care of a house are good reasons to rent.

But stop comparing the rent on your 2 bedroom apartment to the taxes on a 4+ bedroom house.

Well then I would have to lie to you.

So piss off.

[TimHauck 2,870]

1 minute ago, seafoam1 said:

Well then I would have to lie to you.

So piss off.

How big is your apartment, and how big is a house that has higher property taxes than your rent?

[seafoam1 3,023]

4 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

How big is your apartment, and how big is a house that has higher property taxes than your rent?

I don't have property taxes. It's all baked into rent which is what I compared it to.

Property taxes where I live are about 30k on $1M home. 

Most homes in my area range from 3M to 750k.

The 500k homes are fixer uppers. 

And, we don't want a house. 

[TimHauck 2,870]

6 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Well then I would have to lie to you.

So you live in a 1 bedroom then?

[seafoam1 3,023]

4 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

So you live in a 1 bedroom then?

2. What is your problem? 

And to live here they have a rule of yearly income level. Above, not below. To keep the crap out. 

[TimHauck 2,870]

1 minute ago, seafoam1 said:

2. What is your problem? 

And to live here they have a rule of yearly income level. Above, not below.

My problem is you’re comparing apples and oranges.  What would it cost to buy a condo comparable to your apartment?

[seafoam1 3,023]

1 minute ago, TimHauck said:

My problem is you’re comparing apples and oranges.  What would it cost to buy a condo comparable to your apartment?

Ok. You may have missed the last thread from months ago. But I said I wasn't putting down ownership in the least. But I have heard constant attacks on renting from these dopes. 

We have a lot invested in retirement, stocks, and other funds and can be very liquid when wanted or needed. What we don't have or want, is an anchor home that we need to fill, maintain, and be tied to. 

Haven't had a penny of debt in many years.

[TimHauck 2,870]

Just now, seafoam1 said:

Ok. You may have missed the last thread from months ago. But I said I wasn't putting down ownership in the least. But I have heard constant attacks on renting from these dopes. 

We have a lot invested in retirement, stocks, and other funds and can be very liquid when wanted or needed. What we don't have or want, is an anchor home that we need to fill, maintain, and be tied to. 

Haven't had a penny of debt in many years.

I’m not saying you should want to own a home.

I’m saying you shouldn’t compare the cost of renting a 2 bedroom apartment to the taxes on a 4+ bedroom home.

[Jose M 125]

15 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

My problem is you’re comparing apples and oranges.  What would it cost to buy a condo comparable to your apartment?

Take it up with Worms.  He started the idiotic comparison then continued on with it a few posts back.  Your reading ability doing ok?

But since you brought up a completely different topic than the rest of the thread - I don't know why anyone would want to own a condo, especially as a primary residence.  Just rent.  The exception of course would be someplace exotic, use it as a vacation hub and rent it out 80% of the year.

And yeah, if Seafoam is not needing a home with 4 bedrooms - for just himself and his girlfriend who travel a lot, buying a large home would be dumb.  The apples-oranges comparison would be the exact opposite of Worm's argument.  He's probably saving so much money with no property tax, maintenance etc for the size of property he needs to live, as compared to Worm, his investments would crush his.  That's just a more money coming in than going out math problem.

[seafoam1 3,023]

1 minute ago, TimHauck said:

I’m not saying you should want to own a home.

I’m saying you shouldn’t compare the cost of renting a 2 bedroom apartment to the taxes on a 4+ bedroom home.

Well, I did. I'm not sure why I should be censored on that. It seems everyone commenting owns a home except me. Now who should know better? 

[seafoam1 3,023]

10 minutes ago, Jose M said:

Take it up with Worms.  He started the idiotic comparison then continued on with it a few posts back.  Your reading ability doing ok?

But since you brought up a completely different topic than the rest of the thread - I don't know why anyone would want to own a condo, especially as a primary residence.  Just rent.  The exception of course would be someplace exotic, use it as a vacation hub and rent it out 80% of the year.

And yeah, if Seafoam is not needing a home with 4 bedrooms - for just himself and his girlfriend who travel a lot, buying a large home would be dumb.  The apples-oranges comparison would be the exact opposite of Worm's argument.  He's probably saving so much money with no property tax, maintenance etc for the size of property he needs to live, as compared to Worm, his investments would crush his.  That's just more money coming in than going out math problem.

You said it better than I did, as I feel awkward talking actual dollars. 

These guys are always trying to make themselves feel better about their decisions. 

It sounds more to me like they are limited in their life decisions. But, only because they are so in attack mode. 

[thegeneral 3,209]

9 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

You said it better than I did, as I feel awkward talking actual dollars. 

These guys are always trying to make themselves feel better about their decisions. 

It sounds more to me like they are limited in their life decisions. But, only because they are so in attack mode. 

I couldn’t care less if you rent or buy. Just don’t move in next door to me. TIA

[TimHauck 2,870]

14 minutes ago, Jose M said:

Take it up with Worms.  He started the idiotic comparison then continued on with it a few posts back.  Your reading ability doing ok?

But since you brought up a completely different topic than the rest of the thread - I don't know why anyone would want to own a condo, especially as a primary residence.  Just rent.  The exception of course would be someplace exotic, use it as a vacation hub and rent it out 80% of the year.

And yeah, if Seafoam is not needing a home with 4 bedrooms - for just himself and his girlfriend who travel a lot, buying a large home would be dumb.  The apples-oranges comparison would be the exact opposite of Worm's argument.  He's probably saving so much money with no property tax, maintenance etc for the size of property he needs to live, as compared to Worm, his investments would crush his.  That's just a more money coming in than going out math problem.

I didn’t say he should want to own a condo (or a home).  Your reading ability doing ok?

I simply said he shouldn’t compare the rent on a 2-bedroom house to the taxes on a 4-bedroom home.  He has used that argument in past threads on the topic as well and it’s just as stupid now as it was then.

[seafoam1 3,023]

2 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

I couldn’t care less if you rent or buy. Just don’t move in next door to me. TIA

No worries. I don't even qualify for section 8 housing. 

[mmmmm...beer 807]

1 hour ago, Maximum Overkill said:

How long have you been living on base?? You should have money stockpiled. 

A few deployments is enough for a huge down payment on something. 

Ah just got on.  I don't know you or you me but I'm an almost retired fed.  Wife is civilian DOD.  Just got PCS'd by choice to Japan.  I'll be heading back over in October to retire.  We'll be there 3-5 years depending on.

 

[mmmmm...beer 807]

@seafoam1

What's ACN?

[seafoam1 3,023]

oh. Stock symbol. I bought in twice yearly since it was $20. It got up $415 a while back but is now @ $300.  

I just worked there is all.. No biggie. 

[mmmmm...beer 807]

4 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

oh. Stock symbol. I bought in twice yearly since it was $20. It got up $415 a while back but is now @ $300.  

I just worked there is all.. No biggie. 

Ohhh thought you were talking about some sort of place.  Which... I guess you are. Haah...

[seafoam1 3,023]

3 minutes ago, mmmmm...beer said:

Ohhh thought you were talking about some sort of place.  Which... I guess you are. Haah...

Just weigh wants and needs vs. the math vs. your net worth and future income. It's all right there. The toughest problems are really only if there are conflicts with the other key decision maker.  The wants and needs part is the only part that can trip things up when including others. The rest is math, and economy.

 

[IGotWorms 4,058]

3 hours ago, Jose M said:

If you have to move every couple of years like Seafoam does your closing costs just ate up every bit of the appreciation.

And you forgot the $270,000 in property taxes, plus $60,000 in insurance, plus $60,000 in maintenance and $550,000 in interest (7%) you paid over those 30 years. If you say that's all included in your $2000 then you're not comparing apples to apples.  Does Seafoam's rent include utilities and landscaping, if so tack on some more. 

Look, I am a homeowner.  I own two homes right now.   But this is a very "depends on your situation" math problem.   For me it makes sense because I have the luxury of not paying any interest and can move long term to where the property tax is very low.  Seafoam probably doesn't have those advantages.  

I look at my properties as part of my investment portfolio.  But I suggest most people like you don't and not just because you don't understand the math, but also because when you cash in your home for 1.2 million - guess what - you need to find a place to live.  It's not as simple as saying you're ahead the value of your property.

The interest is included in the payment  If the interest is higher that means your house is cheaper and so maybe than $1.2 million you end up with $1 million or $800k. Still a nice chunk of change versus nothing, nada, zilch.

And yeah, I’ve acknowledged several times that if you’re not sticking around long term it probably makes sense to rent. Of course there are many people like that, college kids, seasonal workers, contract workers, military, etc. What we’re talking about here is somebody with the ol’ 9 to 5, 2.5 kids and high blood pressure.

Anywho your points are mostly silly. Not even sure why you’re making them, since as a double homeowner, you should be patting yourself on the back.

Yeah I gotta take my $1.2 million and find other housing. So does the renter who got $0 out of the bargain

 

[IGotWorms 4,058]

2 hours ago, seafoam1 said:

Let me fill you in on how this all started. I mentioned once a while back that I rent, and worms and mdcack attacked me. Trying to get me somehow. I explained that my last two jobs, the 1st of which I got yearly contracts on and moved from state to state, including a 2 year stint in Canada,  probably 6 times in about 15 year time span. That was my 20s and 30s.

Then, when I was living in Illinois, I got a job offer in a different field with a company called Accenture.I had to move to Florida to take the job.Then 3 years later after I was moved to the consulting branch, I could live anywhere I wanted as long as I had an airport I could access because I flew to client sites 100% of the time. So then I moved another 6-7 times over the next 21 years. Mostly, because I wanted to. I have enjoyed living from Boston to KC to Albuquerque, etc.. North and south and in the middle. My girlfriend who I met at ACN 15 years ago has been in the same situation. Same job. Then in my 50's.I retired. She's 20 years younger than me and still wants to work. Makes sense. We live in an area where the property taxes alone are higher, equal to, or only a little less than our rent that we pay. Property taxes alone.

We love our lifestyle. We could afford just about any home we want. Neither one of us wants, or needs, a house to take care of. We love our place. I won't get into what we made on a yearly basis, but we each individually have been blessed on our yearly incomes.  Our investments take good care of us, and we feel unencumbered. 

I told worms this in a more succint way but he for some reason thinks it's cutting me down by saying I rent. Him and mdcack both. 

Focking weird obsessions by them. 

 

That’s great for you, except it has been explained to you multiple times that the bolded is essentially impossible.

I mean, that means your landlord is renting to you for less than the cost of his property taxes. So HE is paying YOU to live there. He pays part of the property taxes, PLUS the mortgage, PLUS upkeep, PLUS whatever utilities are included. Jesus I hope you let the guy fock your girlfriend because you must be taking two grand off him per month

Anyway, whatever. Your rendition of the background is false. You started a thread saying homeowners were dumb and that you were killing it by renting. Nearly everyone else pointed out you were focking stupid. I mean if you want to rent, go ahead and do that. More power to you. But it is not the smarter move for most people who have settled down.

[seafoam1 3,023]

5 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

That’s great for you, except it has been explained to you multiple times that the bolded is essentially impossible.

I mean, that means your landlord is renting to you for less than the cost of his property taxes. So HE is paying YOU to live there. He pays part of the property taxes, PLUS the mortgage, PLUS upkeep, PLUS whatever utilities are included. Jesus I hope you let the guy fock your girlfriend because you must be taking two grand off him per month

Anyway, whatever. Your rendition of the background is false. You started a thread saying homeowners were dumb and that you were killing it by renting. Nearly everyone else pointed out you were focking stupid. I mean if you want to rent, go ahead and do that. More power to you. But it is not the smarter move for most people who have settled down.

Wrong again. Tell me of your current renting experience. Do you think their property taxes are laid upon each resident in full? 

[IGotWorms 4,058]

2 hours ago, Jose M said:

Take it up with Worms.  He started the idiotic comparison then continued on with it a few posts back.  Your reading ability doing ok?

But since you brought up a completely different topic than the rest of the thread - I don't know why anyone would want to own a condo, especially as a primary residence.  Just rent.  The exception of course would be someplace exotic, use it as a vacation hub and rent it out 80% of the year.

And yeah, if Seafoam is not needing a home with 4 bedrooms - for just himself and his girlfriend who travel a lot, buying a large home would be dumb.  The apples-oranges comparison would be the exact opposite of Worm's argument.  He's probably saving so much money with no property tax, maintenance etc for the size of property he needs to live, as compared to Worm, his investments would crush his.  That's just a more money coming in than going out math problem.

If he’s renting a cheap piece of sh1t place, that changes nothing. He could’ve bought the cheap piece of sh1t place and he’d still pocket the proceeds in the end. They’d be less proceeds since it’s a cheap piece of sh1t, but still more than the $0 you get back from renting a cheap piece of sh1t.

You seem to want to compare renting a cheap piece of sh1t place versus owning a palace? What the heck does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

[seafoam1 3,023]

12 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

If he’s renting a cheap piece of sh1t place, that changes nothing. He could’ve bought the cheap piece of sh1t place and he’d still pocket the proceeds in the end. They’d be less proceeds since it’s a cheap piece of sh1t, but still more than the $0 you get back from renting a cheap piece of sh1t.

You seem to want to compare renting a cheap piece of sh1t place versus owning a palace? What the heck does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

You are so angry you focked up in life. 

[seafoam1 3,023]

6 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

That’s great for you, except it has been explained to you multiple times that the bolded is essentially impossible.

I mean, that means your landlord is renting to you for less than the cost of his property taxes. So HE is paying YOU to live there. He pays part of the property taxes, PLUS the mortgage, PLUS upkeep, PLUS whatever utilities are included. Jesus I hope you let the guy fock your girlfriend because you must be taking two grand off him per month

Anyway, whatever. Your rendition of the background is false. You started a thread saying homeowners were dumb and that you were killing it by renting. Nearly everyone else pointed out you were focking stupid. I mean if you want to rent, go ahead and do that. More power to you. But it is not the smarter move for most people who have settled down.

You are focking triggered mad you got exposed.

[IGotWorms 4,058]

7 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

Wrong again. Tell me of your current renting experience. Do you think their property taxes are laid upon each resident in full? 

You can’t compare an apartment to a house, you dolt.

Do you think a condo owner pays taxes for whole condominium complex? Because that would be the actual analogy

[seafoam1 3,023]

Just now, IGotWorms said:

You can’t compare an apartment to a house, you dolt.

Do you think a condo owner pays taxes for whole condominium complex? Because that would be the actual analogy

I don't care about condos. You do you peanut. 

[seafoam1 3,023]

10 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

You are so angry you focked up in life. 

This. 

[IGotWorms 4,058]

19 minutes ago, seafoam1 said:

I don't care about condos. You do you peanut. 

Nor do I, but it does mean your comparison is focking asinine

[Strike 5,541]

3 hours ago, Jose M said:

Take it up with Worms.  He started the idiotic comparison then continued on with it a few posts back.  Your reading ability doing ok?

But since you brought up a completely different topic than the rest of the thread - I don't know why anyone would want to own a condo, especially as a primary residence.  Just rent.  The exception of course would be someplace exotic, use it as a vacation hub and rent it out 80% of the year.

And yeah, if Seafoam is not needing a home with 4 bedrooms - for just himself and his girlfriend who travel a lot, buying a large home would be dumb.  The apples-oranges comparison would be the exact opposite of Worm's argument.  He's probably saving so much money with no property tax, maintenance etc for the size of property he needs to live, as compared to Worm, his investments would crush his.  That's just a more money coming in than going out math problem.

I tell young kids at work all the time to buy a condo.  Sometimes you just can't afford your dream home the first go round.  A buddy of mine from work named Joey lamented that every year his rent went up a significant amount and one year he moved to a worse apartment due to it.  He wanted his first home to be a house and he wanted it to be nice.    I told him the benefits to a condo are:

1)  Cost certainty.  You know what your monthly payment is and it won't change.  In hot markets rent can increase crazy amounts.   A condo is just like an apartment but it's yours.

2)  You get the same benefits as a house in that you are building equity.  So when you've saved enough for that HOUSE that you want you can then move on to that and have some equity to boot so your monthly payment didn't ALL go in to someone else's pocket.

But generally, IMO, you want to get in to the ownership game as soon as possible if that's your end goal.  If that's a condo so be it. 

[seafoam1 3,023]

1 hour ago, IGotWorms said:

Nor do I, but it does mean your comparison is focking asinine

Well, you are wrong again corky.