Illegal Immigration - This chased torridjoe!

[surferskin 31]

That's not what you accused me of saying.

 

"You are still saying that illegal immigrants are not doing anything illegal commiting a crime "

-120-

[George Carlin 1]

We need Mike FFToday to stop the fight!

 

Like he did with the Gutterboy alias thread.

[Toro 3]

That's not what you accused me of saying.

 

"You are still saying that illegal immigrants are not doing anything illegal "

 

Ok, then just stop there. Are ILLEGAL immigrants doing anything ILLEGAL?

 

Just answer that....

 

Is this hot tea hot or cold?

Colors that end in Urple

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

glad you're happy to learn something--we don't treat being here illegally as a crime.

 

You never answered the key items here that you are stuck on:

- How can you have a punishment (fine, imprisonment) without any crime being committed and due process?

- Did you or did you not see what Title 8 Section 1325 originally had (used the explicit terms of felony and misdemeanor)? If so, are you implying that the amendment (to increase the fine amount) somehow made entering the country illegally no longer a crime?

[Snuff 10]

Gettin dizzy....

[George Carlin 1]

You never answered the key items here that you are stuck on:

- How can you have a punishment (fine, imprisonment) without any crime being committed and due process?

- Did you or did you not see what Title 8 Section 1325 originally had (used the explicit terms of felony and misdemeanor)? If so, are you implying that the amendment (to increase the fine amount) somehow made entering the country illegally no longer a crime?

 

When PatsFatBoy starts laying down the facts, it's time to give up. I've learned this the hard way.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

-120-

 

 

I can see what he is saying. He is saying that unless an act is classified as a misdemeanor or felony, it is not a "crime". However, the punishments for the act (which these acts do have) categorize whether the crime is a misdemeanor or a felony.

 

His argument is seriously flawed, but I understand it.

[Ravens 03 0]

Gettin dizzy....

 

I can't wait to see how he blogs about this interaction.

 

 

 

 

[Not that I'd ever waste my time to read that shiat.]

[torridjoe 48]

Ok, then just stop there. Are ILLEGAL immigrants doing anything ILLEGAL?

 

Just answer that....

 

Is this hot tea hot or cold?

Colors that end in Urple

 

they are residing here illegally.

[HTH 95]

You'll have to forgive Torrid. He's from Barcelona.

[torridjoe 48]

I can't wait to see how he blogs about this interaction.

 

[Not that I'd ever waste my time to read that shiat.]

 

It's not relevant to an Oregon blog, sorry.

[Ravens 03 0]

they are residing here illegally.

 

The 1st step is admitting the problem.

 

OK - they are here illegally.

They are illegals.

They are committing a crime.

They are ciminals.

 

Repeat after me.

 

 

[torridjoe 48]

You never answered the key items here that you are stuck on:

- How can you have a punishment (fine, imprisonment) without any crime being committed and due process?

- Did you or did you not see what Title 8 Section 1325 originally had (used the explicit terms of felony and misdemeanor)? If so, are you implying that the amendment (to increase the fine amount) somehow made entering the country illegally no longer a crime?

 

No, you must have missed some of the posts. I'm saying that a statute on the books that is not enforced may as well not exist. Since undocumenteds are not charged with a crime, but are simply detained and/or deported, I'm comfortable in saying that simply being here illegally is not a crime.

[Toro 3]

I can see what he is saying. He is saying that unless an act is classified as a misdemeanor or felony, it is not a "crime". However, the punishments for the act (which these acts do have) categorize whether the crime is a misdemeanor or a felony.

 

His argument is seriously flawed, but I understand it.

 

Wrong.

 

2. Definition of "Felony".—For purposes of subsection ((1)(A), (, and (D), "felony" means any federal, state, or local offense punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year.

...

(A) "Misdemeanor" means any federal, state, or local offense punishable by a term of imprisonment of one year or less.

 

Federal Sentencing Guidelines

[torridjoe 48]

The 1st step is admitted the problem.

 

OK - they are here illegally.

They are illegals.

They are committing a crime.

They are ciminals.

 

Repeat after me.

can't do it. Being here illegally isn't a crime.

[nobody 2,889]

Torrid is making up his own definition of the word "crime." I used to see the retarded kids in elementary school do that too.

[Toro 3]

Since undocumenteds are not charged with a crime, but are simply detained and/or deported, I'm comfortable in saying that simply being here illegally is not a crime.

 

Once again, you are a liar.

 

http://www.ussc.gov/2003guid/2l1_2.htm

 

They are deported after being CONVICTED.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

No, you must have missed some of the posts. I'm saying that a statute on the books that is not enforced may as well not exist. Since undocumenteds are not charged with a crime, but are simply detained and/or deported, I'm comfortable in saying that simply being here illegally is not a crime.

 

WRONG. If a law on the books is not enforced, then there is still a crime being committed. The frequency in which it is prosecuted (which is in debate here) or not is irrelevant.

 

ETA: I believe that we call this "if a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound" defense. So, if I kill someone and I never get prosecuted for it, am I not a criminal?

[Ravens 03 0]

Being here illegally isn't a crime.

 

Page 4 and you're still on this huh?

 

[torridjoe 48]

Once again, you are a liar.

 

http://www.ussc.gov/2003guid/2l1_2.htm

 

They are deported after being CONVICTED.

 

Once again, you are an idiot. Those are for OTHER convictions, not immigration violations.

[Ravens 03 0]

I have to go.

 

Sorry I will miss more Democratic spin hilarity.

[Snuff 10]

torrid, do you find it odd that no one here is agreeing with you on this issue?

I mean c'mon, illegal aliens not committing a crime? The word "illegal" should have been your first clue.

[Toro 3]

Once again, you are an idiot. Those are for OTHER convictions, not immigration violations.

 

Those are for additional sentencing guidlines for OTHER crimes being committed in ADDITION to being here illegally.

 

You are an idiot and a liar. You are George W. Bush.

[torridjoe 48]

ETA: I believe that we call this "if a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound" defense. So, if I kill someone and I never get prosecuted for it, am I not a criminal?

 

It's not whether you personally are charged, it's whether the charging agency opts to charge in general. Typically the agency will make a statement about enforcement policy, as in decriminalization of small amounts of marijuana. The law is still on the books, but the agency notes they will not use it. I'm not saying that DHS has made an formal statement of decriminalization, but through their (in)actions have made a de facto statement.

 

Those are for additional sentencing guidlines for OTHER crimes being committed in ADDITION to being here illegally.

 

That's right. And conviction relates to THOSE crimes, not immigration violations. They are not convicted of being here illegally, because they were not charged.

 

I have to go.

 

Sorry I will miss more Democratic spin hilarity.

 

Who's playing the role of the Democrat? I've never been one.

 

torrid, do you find it odd that no one here is agreeing with you on this issue?

I mean c'mon, illegal aliens not committing a crime? The word "illegal" should have been your first clue.

 

Once again--simply being "illegal" doesn't make it a crime.

 

Being agreed with is not an indicator of who's right. Most soldiers in Iraq agree that Saddam had WMDs, apparently. Doesn't make them right.

[Snuff 10]

Once again--simply being "illegal" doesn't make it a crime.

 

Guess we should stop using the term "legal" immigrants then?

[nobody 2,889]

Once again--simply being "illegal" doesn't make it a crime.

 

It's pretty easy to argue when you are allowed to change the definition of words. Nowhere in the definition of the word "crime" is there a reference to the level of which a crime is enforced.

 

I don't understand why people always think you are so smart. You don't understand the basic definition of a large variety of words.

[Toro 3]

That's right. And conviction relates to THOSE crimes, not immigration violations. They are not convicted of being here illegally, because they were not charged.

 

 

Ok, are you ready for school little boy?

 

 

§2L1.2. Unlawfully Entering or Remaining in the United States

(a) Base Offense Level: 8 This states what level to be sentenced at.

 

( Specific Offense Characteristic

 

(1) Apply the Greatest:

 

If the defendant previously was deported, or unlawfully remained in the United States, after—

 

(A) a conviction for a felony that is (i) a drug trafficking offense for which the sentence imposed exceeded 13 months; (ii) a crime of violence; (iii) a firearms offense; (iv) a child pornography offense; (v) a national security or terrorism offense; (vi) a human trafficking offense; or (vii) an alien smuggling offense, increase by 16 levels;

 

( a conviction for a felony drug trafficking offense for which the sentence imposed was 13 months or less, increase by 12 levels;

 

© a conviction for an aggravated felony, increase by 8 levels : These say to INCREASE the levels if they are guilty of multiple crimes.;

 

(D) a conviction for any other felony, increase by 4 levels; or

 

(E) three or more convictions for misdemeanors that are crimes of violence or drug trafficking offenses, increase by 4 levels.

 

Do you understand now? If you are convicted of being here illegally, the sentencing guidlines say you are a Level 8 (http://www.ussc.gov/2005guid/CHAP5.htm). This table shows the guidelines.

 

Pwned. Now STFU.

[torridjoe 48]

Guess we should stop using the term "legal" immigrants then?

 

on what basis?

[nobody 2,889]

on what basis?

 

On the basis that legal means you've never been convicted of a crime. I just changed the definition.

[torridjoe 48]

It's pretty easy to argue when you are allowed to change the definition of words. Nowhere in the definition of the word "crime" is there a reference to the level of which a crime is enforced.

 

I don't understand why people always think you are so smart. You don't understand the basic definition of a large variety of words.

 

I didn't change any definitions. I granted the appearance of a statute. I'm simply saying that the practical application of an unenforced statute is to call it decriminalized--as in, not a crime.

[Snuff 10]

 

Good Lord....

 

[torridjoe 48]

 

Ok, are you ready for school little boy?

Do you understand now? If you are convicted of being here illegally, the sentencing guidlines say you are a Level 8 (http://www.ussc.gov/2005guid/CHAP5.htm). This table shows the guidelines.

 

Pwned. Now STFU.

 

Great--where are you showing a conviction for being here illegally? I've pointed out twice now that "conviction" refers to ADDITIONAL infractions, and have nothing to do with being found unlawfully in the country.

[nobody 2,889]

I didn't change any definitions. I granted the appearance of a statute. I'm simply saying that the practical application of an unenforced statute is to call it decriminalized--as in, not a crime.

 

 

A "crime" is an act that's against the law. That's the definition. That's non-negotiable. Something is not decriminalized until the law no longer exists.

 

Semantics are so god damn fun, I want to stab myself with a fork.

[torridjoe 48]

Something is not decriminalized until the law no longer exists.

 

Not true. A law on the books that is not enforced exists, but is decriminalized.

[nobody 2,889]

Not true. A law on the books that is not enforced exists, but is decriminalized.

 

 

Not under the context we are using it here. Let's recap.

 

Premise: "Illegal" is not a good way to describe undocumented immigrants

 

Counter: "Illegal" is perfect because they are violating the law.

 

Counter: But it's not a crime

 

The original counter argument is refering specifically to the the connection between "illegal" and "law."

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

Not true. A law on the books that is not enforced exists, but is decriminalized.

 

You keep saying that the law is not enforced, yet there are people sitting in jail for these crimes (see prior posts in this thread). Where exactly is your proof that these laws are not being prosecuted and where is your proof that this somehow means that the acts themselves are "decriminalized"?

 

Is this more "torrid-speak" or do you have something that will refute the mountains of evidence in this thread against you?

[nobody 2,889]

Admit it torrid, you were hanging your hat on the admittedly false premise that there were no laws governing undocumented immigration and now you are using this whole semantic mess to hide the fact that you don't want to call undocumented immigrants "illegal aliens"

 

ADMIT IT!!!!!!

[D_House 0]

I LIKE POSTING IN THREADS!!!

[Nomad99 814]

It's illegal under USC 49 40101 to bring a undocumented taco on board an airline. But it's not a crime to have an undocumented messican in your carry-on luggage. HTH

 

FiXoRaTeD

[VikesNation 0]

Dean Pritchard: Ladies and Gentleman, please welcome, the co-host of CNN's Crossfire, famed political consultant, the raging Cajun, Mr. James Carville

James Carville: Thank you, Thank you Dean Pritchard. It's an honor and a pleasure to be here sir.

Dean Pritchard: Topic number one. What is your position on the role of government in supporting innovation in the field of biotechnology?

James Carville: Well Dean, I'm? I'm glad that you asked that question...

Frank: Uhhh... Actually, I'd like to jump in and take that one Jimmy, If you don't mind.

James Carville: Have at it, Hoss.

Frank: [Frank takes a drink of water, makes a funny face and grunts] Recent research has shown that empirical evidence for globalization of corporate innovation is very limited and as a corollary the market for technologies is shrinking. As a world leader, it's important for America to provide systematic research grants for our scientists. I believe strongly there will always be a need for us to have a well articulated innovation policy with emphasis on human resource development. Thank you.

Frank: [Frank grunts, makes a face and goes limp]

[audience applauds]

Frank: What happened? I blacked out

Dean Pritchard: That was interesting. ha ha. Thank you very much. And, uh, your rebuttal? Mr. Carville.

James Carville: Oh... It... We... have no response. That was perfect.

Frank: That's the way you do it! That's the way you debate!