Snuff 10 Posted May 26, 2006 Gotta wait until all is said and done over there to really balance the issues. Can't do it mid-way through. Thats just focking stupid. I'm sure Americans were worried the day after the D-Day landings in Normandy. Overall, I'd say that turned out well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastfish 0 Posted May 26, 2006 The primary goal was to disarm Saddam Hussein of his WMD and the White House estimated that the war would take about six months at a cost of roughly $50 billion. Based on that track record I'd say Bush has all the vision of Mr. Magoo. The above in bold is the BS you threw out as proof of how "botched" the war in Iraq has been....yet you can't find a single quote by Bush, Rummy, Powell, Rice or the White House lawn man that says we do Iraq in 6 months at a cost of $50b....but you insist Rummy's take was $50-60b TOTAL...you say anyone can find his quotes to this effect but apparently you can't. just say you are sorry, you mistook some talk from 5 years ago by some guy talking about the costs as numbers put out by the WH... and move on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footballpowers 0 Posted May 26, 2006 A government is in the process of being established there. They had elections. Are those not good things? If it were not a haven for terrorists, the terrorists would be somewhere else. Terror is a huge problem in the world today. If we hadn't gone into Iraq, it would still be a huge problem. Hey, the war was a tough call and I'm still not sure we did the right thing....but to say we're botching everything up is just pure partisanship. How the heck do you know that to be the case?? This first point I think has a long way to go. I HOPE it is successful but I have many doubts. Your second point is a good one. But we are bringing the terrorist there at the expense of our military. Good probably. I feel the war is a failure for many reasons. It has help fuel the American hatred in the MiddleEast (win lose or draw). It has made us the laughing stock of the world with the fabricated WMD. And it has weakened our positions against true threats like Iran and Osama.... Gotta wait until all is said and done over there to really balance the issues. Can't do it mid-way through. Thats just focking stupid. I'm sure Americans were worried the day after the D-Day landings in Normandy. Overall, I'd say that turned out well. See my points above.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastfish 0 Posted May 26, 2006 Gotta wait until all is said and done over there to really balance the issues. Can't do it mid-way through. Thats just focking stupid. I'm sure Americans were worried the day after the D-Day landings in Normandy. Overall, I'd say that turned out well. Reasonable people can agree on this...but mass media and their loyal lib lemmings insist that Iraq is a failure, botched, ruinous, unjustified, criminal, a huge defeat for America... ad infinitum, ad nauseam. We are clearly winning in Iraq. But don't you dare tell a lib this or you'll get smacked with his purse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snuff 10 Posted May 26, 2006 See my points above.... I see your points, but this whole thing with Iran is just starting. As far as Osama, if we had taken him out, you think that would have stopped the terrorist's movement? In any way? And I'd rather live in America as a "laughing stock" among other countries, than live anywhere else in the world. I see your points, believe me. All I am saying/asking is how can you judge something before it is over? Sure, you can judge each action leading up to it, but as far as the final result? You can't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footballpowers 0 Posted May 26, 2006 I see your points, but this whole thing with Iran is just starting. As far as Osama, if we had taken him out, you think that would have stopped the terrorist's movement? In any way? And I'd rather live in America as a "laughing stock" among other countries, than live anywhere else in the world. I see your points, believe me. All I am saying/asking is how can you judge something before it is over? Sure, you can judge each action leading up to it, but as far as the final result? You can't. Agreed but, IMO you can't like the way things have gone or appear to be going. As for the laughing stock comment, yes, I'd rather be an American laughing stock than from any other country in the world. But we didn't need to be the laughing stock in the first place..... that's my point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snuff 10 Posted May 26, 2006 Agreed but, IMO you can't like the way things have gone or appear to be going. As for the laughing stock comment, yes, I'd rather be an American laughing stock than from any other country in the world. But we didn't need to be the laughing stock in the first place..... that's my point. Who says we're the laughing stock anyways? I still see many countries lining up with us to battle terrorism. Also, with the Iranian issue, France and Germany are with us. They weren't when it came to Iraq. So I do not agree with that. As far as Iraq, sure things haven't gone as planned. Even our President says so. But nothing goes according to plan when it comes to war. I see a new government formed in Iraq. Sure, the majority of Iraq wants us out, as does our own country. But do you really think it would be wise to get out now, after all we have endured? They (Iraq) wouldn't make it. Yet. Time will tell. If we did leave now, then we WOULD be the laughing stock of the world. We knew going in this wouldn't be a short war/rebuild. We knew it. Things haven't gone as planned? Of course not. Name any other conflict in the world that has gone as planned. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fumbleweed 554 Posted May 26, 2006 Reasonable people can agree on this...but mass media and their loyal lib lemmings insist that Iraq is a failure, botched, ruinous, unjustified, criminal, a huge defeat for America... ad infinitum, ad nauseam. We are clearly winning in Iraq. But don't you dare tell a lib this or you'll get smacked with his purse. Do I think the mass media is grossly biased and negative in their reporting of the war? Absolutely. Do I think we are "clearly winning in Iraq"? No, I don't. Like I said earlier, I think it's been a venture with mixed results. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cmh6476 1,060 Posted May 26, 2006 my boss is going to afghanistan and iraq and germany and various other places this week to visit with troops and see the progress being made Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastfish 0 Posted May 26, 2006 Agreed but, IMO you can't like the way things have gone or appear to be going. As for the laughing stock comment, yes, I'd rather be an American laughing stock than from any other country in the world. But we didn't need to be the laughing stock in the first place..... that's my point. Laughing stock in whose judgment? Is riot torn France laughing? Major trade partner China? Broke and needs major economic help Russia? Arab countries might be afraid of US (not a bad thing) but are they laughing? Korea ain't laughing, North or South. England, Austrialia, Japan and most Eastern European countries admire and depend on American leadership. Maybe Venezuela and Cuba are laughing because they are now buddies in the "we hate America" club. Good luck to them with that. Got any 1955 auto parts to send to Cuba? And from the daily dose of bluster Iran spits out, I'd say that is nerves...not laughter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snuff 10 Posted May 26, 2006 Laughing stock in whose judgment? Is riot torn France laughing? Major trade partner China? Broke and needs major economic help Russia? Arab countries might be afraid of US (not a bad thing) but are they laughing? Korea ain't laughing, North or South. England, Austrialia, Japan and most Eastern European countries admire and depend on American leadership. Maybe Venezuela and Cuba are laughing because they are now buddies in the "we hate America" club. Good luck to them with that. Got any 1955 auto parts to send to Cuba? And from the daily dose of bluster Iran spits out, I'd say that is nerves...not laughter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastfish 0 Posted May 26, 2006 Do I think the mass media is grossly biased and negative in their reporting of the war? Absolutely. Do I think we are "clearly winning in Iraq"? No, I don't. Like I said earlier, I think it's been a venture with mixed results. I suppose winning in Iraq won't be seen as "clear" until the violence stops. But by that measurement, we are not winning here either until we quit killing 50k men, women and childen on the roads each and EVERY year. We are winning in Iraq. The formation of this new Iraqi government is a huge win. Now it has to establish it's authority over the various militias...something the Iraqi PM has declared his first priority. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snuff 10 Posted May 26, 2006 something the Iraqi PM has declared his first priority. But it hasn't happened yet, so all is lost and we lose and we'll go down as a huge failure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FranksTanks 0 Posted May 26, 2006 I suppose winning in Iraq won't be seen as "clear" until the violence stops. But by that measurement, we are not winning here either until we quit killing 50k men, women and childen on the roads each and EVERY year. We are winning in Iraq. The formation of this new Iraqi government is a huge win. Now it has to establish it's authority over the various militias...something the Iraqi PM has declared his first priority. Do you really think the violence will just stop? And at what cost? Do you still think all of this was worth the financial cost and cost of American lives? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snuff 10 Posted May 26, 2006 Do you really think the violence will just stop? And at what cost? Do you still think all of this was worth the financial cost and cost of American lives? How can this be answered when it's not even over? There is more to be done. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FranksTanks 0 Posted May 26, 2006 How can this be answered when it's not even over? There is more to be done. Sure it can. Do you think the violence will stop? There wouldn't be much sense in asking that question if all of this was over. We've been there long enough, lost enough lives, and already spent plenty to ask if it's worth it. It's even more frightening knowing there is more to be done. Those are all very valid questions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snuff 10 Posted May 26, 2006 Sure it can. Do you think the violence will stop? There wouldn't be much sense in asking that question if all of this was over. We've been there long enough, lost enough lives, and already spent plenty to ask if it's worth it. It's even more frightening knowing there is more to be done. Those are all very valid questions. Sure they are valid questions, too bad they cannot be answered when it isn't over yet. It'd be all speculative. How can anyone be sure the violence will stop? We have lost roughly the same amount of lives during this whole war as we did on D-Day in WWII at Normandy in about 10 hours. As I said, you don't think Americans had the same questions or issues as we do now with this war, then? It wasn't over yet, and as I mentioned, that turned out ok. Just using that as an example, nothing else. I don't think it's frightening knowing more work needs done. I look at it as a positive. Heck, we have already helped them set up a government and their security forces are growing stronger by the day. A nice bonus (or as some of you would say the entire reason we are there, but whatever..) is having our forces in that area (mideast). That to me, is the greatest thing we have now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gocolts 300 Posted May 26, 2006 You focking liberals make me sick.It is very clear that there are America haters in this thread. You tools who keep beating the drum about all the innocent civilians that are dead because the US is in Iraq truely have no idea and are incapable of thinking for yourself.Sodam Insane killed more civilians a year then which are dying now.Remember the mass graves.So the Iraqi people are safer now than before,even with collateral damage. You liberals also keep saying we were not greeted with open arms and that the Iraqi people don't want us there.You couldn't be more wrong.I seen the pics and videos on the news when we first invaded Iraq,didn't you?They were cheering in the streets for their liberation and to get rid of a madman who killed people who did nothing wrong.Plus,the voter turnout over there was higher than in the US,and they were taking a chance of being killed,just to vote.So how do you liberals explain that one. Some of you tools even say it is an "unjust" war or "illegal war".How focking blind and stupid you are.How many UN resolutions did Sodam Insane violate??? 16?? 17?? Wasn't the UN security concil vote 15-0???Why yes,it was. And you people wonder why I think liberalsim is a menat disorder. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hoytdwow 202 Posted May 26, 2006 You focking liberals make me sick.It is very clear that there are America haters in this thread. You tools who keep beating the drum about all the innocent civilians that are dead because the US is in Iraq truely have no idea and are incapable of thinking for yourself.Sodam Insane killed more civilians a year then which are dying now.Remember the mass graves.So the Iraqi people are safer now than before,even with collateral damage. You liberals also keep saying we were not greeted with open arms and that the Iraqi people don't want us there.You couldn't be more wrong.I seen the pics and videos on the news when we first invaded Iraq,didn't you?They were cheering in the streets for their liberation and to get rid of a madman who killed people who did nothing wrong.Plus,the voter turnout over there was higher than in the US,and they were taking a chance of being killed,just to vote.So how do you liberals explain that one. Some of you tools even say it is an "unjust" war or "illegal war".How focking blind and stupid you are.How many UN resolutions did Sodam Insane violate??? 16?? 17?? Wasn't the UN security concil vote 15-0???Why yes,it was. And you people wonder why I think liberalsim is a menat disorder. Release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastfish 0 Posted May 26, 2006 Do you really think the violence will just stop? And at what cost? Do you still think all of this was worth the financial cost and cost of American lives? The violence will die down to say any major American city on a Saturday night...but no, it won't stop. A free and democratic Iraq, led by a moderate Muslim leadership, located in the heart of the Arab word, allied with America (and a future member of NATO?) will serve the interest of peace and our nation for generations to come. So yes, at 10x the costs it is worth it because the alternative is a pan-Islamic caliphate that stretches across the entire Mid-East. Such an empire of Iran-like theocracy would seek to control the West thru the economic blackmail of oil shortages and the use of nuclear threats against all Western interests in the region. Our enemy understands what they are trying to do perfectly. It's the sleeping people of the West who are only now waking up to the threat. We have been very fortunate that key Western leaders have seen and reacted to the needs of this war. Bush and Blair will be heroes of this era for those who believe in Western values. Of course, to libs and Ayatollahs, jihadists and despots..Bush and Blair are criminals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FranksTanks 0 Posted May 26, 2006 Sure they are valid questions, too bad they cannot be answered when it isn't over yet. It'd be all speculative. How can anyone be sure the violence will stop? We have lost roughly the same amount of lives during this whole war as we did on D-Day in WWII at Normandy in about 10 hours. As I said, you don't think Americans had the same questions or issues as we do now with this war, then? It wasn't over yet, and as I mentioned, that turned out ok. Just using that as an example, nothing else.I don't think it's frightening knowing more work needs done. I look at it as a positive. Heck, we have already helped them set up a government and their security forces are growing stronger by the day. A nice bonus (or as some of you would say the entire reason we are there, but whatever..) is having our forces in that area (mideast). That to me, is the greatest thing we have now. So you did answer it, you think it has been worth it and you see the outcome as being worth it because you obviously must think the violence will stop. That wasn't so tough. I did hear an interesting statistic while watching something on the Army medics over there, and they said that without modern medicine we would have already lost as many men in Iraq as we lost in Vietnam (in the same amount of time I think?) Basically, we have saved so many lives in this war that would have normally been lost in any other war in the past. So the D-day comparison isn't a necessarily valid one. I just don't think the violence will come to a halt and everything will be peaceful between everyone. That has been a volatile and unstable area for thousands of years and I’m not sure anything will change in our lifetime. I think the negatives outweigh the positives and using words like win or winning will never be relevant. Things may hopefully get better, but the cost of something like that will never seem worth it. ...in my opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastfish 0 Posted May 26, 2006 Gotta go start the Memorial Day weekend guys. Keep this thread in the archives and we'll look it up in 3 years to see whose crystal ball was foggy and who saw it clear. Have a great AMERICAN holiday weekend and remember those who made it so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FranksTanks 0 Posted May 26, 2006 Gotta go start the Memorial Day weekend guys. Keep this thread in the archives and we'll look it up in 3 years to see whose crystal ball was foggy and who saw it clear. Have a great AMERICAN holiday weekend and remember those who made it so. In three years from now, I'll just say this, I hope your are absolutly right. Have a good weekend. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snuff 10 Posted May 26, 2006 So you did answer it, you think it has been worth it and you see the outcome as being worth it because you obviously must think the violence will stop. That wasn't so tough. I did hear an interesting statistic while watching something on the Army medics over there, and they said that without modern medicine we would have already lost as many men in Iraq as we lost in Vietnam (in the same amount of time I think?) Basically, we have saved so many lives in this war that would have normally been lost in any other war in the past. So the D-day comparison isn't a necessarily valid one. I didn't answer anything. I have no idea what will happen, all I am stating is as of now, I do think it is worth it so far. They are already talking about the Iraqi security forces taking over in 2007, thus leading to many of our troops coming home. Thats what you want right? And as mentioned, the new government has been formed. BIG step. And again, we have troops in that area, big plus imo. It's nice to have a military with fighing experience. As far as military medicine and the army medics, with each and every war/year the casualty rate goes down because of advanced medicine and science. You don't think with the proper aid the casualty rate in the US Civil War would change? Thats a moot point imo. Balances out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FranksTanks 0 Posted May 26, 2006 I didn't answer anything. I have no idea what will happen, all I am stating is as of now, I do think it is worth it so far. They are already talking about the Iraqi security forces taking over in 2007, thus leading to many of our troops coming home. Thats what you want right? And as mentioned, the new government has been formed. BIG step. And again, we have troops in that area, big plus imo. It's nice to have a military with fighing experience. As far as military medicine and the army medics, with each and every war/year the casualty rate goes down because of advanced medicine and science. You don't think with the proper aid the casualty rate in the US Civil War would change? Thats a moot point imo. Balances out. I guess I should have put a few returns in-between the two questions. The first was more speculative, but the second question, about it "being worth it," was basically meant to be: was it worth it so far. So you answered it, I was just wondering what your opinion was. You seem to think it was worth it, and you have a very positive outlook. That's fine, that's all I was asking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snuff 10 Posted May 26, 2006 I guess I should have put a few returns in-between the two questions. The first was more speculative, but the second question, about it "being worth it," was basically meant to be: was it worth it so far. So you answered it, I was just wondering what your opinion was. You seem to think it was worth it, and you have a very positive outlook. That's fine, that's all I was asking. All we can do is respect other's opinions, except torrid's of course. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FranksTanks 0 Posted May 26, 2006 All we can do is respect other's opinions, except torrid's of course. Word. Although I kinda respect his, like you kinda respect those other guys.... just my opinion! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MDC 7,678 Posted May 26, 2006 The above in bold is the BS you threw out as proof of how "botched" the war in Iraq has been....yet you can't find a single quote by Bush, Rummy, Powell, Rice or the White House lawn man that says we do Iraq in 6 months at a cost of $50b....but you insist Rummy's take was $50-60b TOTAL...you say anyone can find his quotes to this effect but apparently you can't. just say you are sorry, you mistook some talk from 5 years ago by some guy talking about the costs as numbers put out by the WH... and move on. I just posted you a link to Cheney saying that he thought we'd be talking about the war in terms of weeks, not months, and that he'd be surprised if the war went on for six months. We also know that Rumsfeld called the insurgents in the days after the invasion "a few dead enders." Does that sound like the kind of guy who thinks we'd still be fighting the insurgency today? I also posted you several links to members of the administration saying that Lindsay's $100-$200B estimate was extremely high, and a report that Rumsfeld agreed that the $50-$60B estimate was much closer to reality. Do I have direct quotes? No - these are things the admin was saying almost five years ago. At the time they were reported by every media outlet, and you'll find some of those articles with a simple Google search. I even bothered to post a link to the Cato Institute, since you apparently think that CNN, MSNBC, ABC, and every other mainstream media outlet outright fabricated these admin claims and for some reason the White House never pointed out that it was a lie. So at this point, you are just spinning and denying reality, not unlike the President you so admire. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parrot 789 Posted May 26, 2006 RUMSFELD: Well, the Office of Management and Budget has come up with a number that's something under $50 billion for the cost. How much of that would be the U.S. burden and how much would be other countries is an open question. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0301/19/se.01.html * Feb. 7, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, to U.S. troops in Aviano, Italy: "It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." http://www.usatoday.com/educate/war28-article.htm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MDC 7,678 Posted May 26, 2006 http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0301/19/se.01.htmlhttp://www.usatoday.com/educate/war28-article.htm Thanks parrot, but I already posted links. Fastfish's answer is that the news media made it up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parrot 789 Posted May 26, 2006 Thanks parrot, but I already posted links. Fastfish's answer is that the news media made it up. My bad, should have read the whole thread first instead of scrolling up from the bottom, but the way he was harping about no direct quotes I figured these must have been missed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MDC 7,678 Posted May 26, 2006 My bad, should have read the whole thread first instead of scrolling up from the bottom, but the way he was harping about no direct quotes I figured these must have been missed. Well in fairness, I only provided a quote to Cheney suggesting the war would take about six months, and a link to an article that said Rumsfeld agreed with the $50B estimate - not a direct quote. But fastfish already said that whatever I read was a CNN lie (of course!), so I figured that was his pre-emptive strike on reality and there wasn't much point in Google. Trust me you're not missing much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZeroTolerance 584 Posted May 26, 2006 Posting in a fasttroll thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
donhaas 18 Posted May 27, 2006 Have a great AMERICAN holiday weekend and remember those who made it so. God bless warmongering chickensh!t hawks and the yellow ribbons they put on their SUVs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites