Suns trade Kurt Thomas and two #1s to Sonics

[GeminiV 0]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2943588

 

SEATTLE -- The Seattle SuperSonics on Friday acquired veteran forward Kurt Thomas and the Phoenix Suns' first-round draft choices in 2008 and 2010, in exchange for a conditional second round draft choice.

 

Seattle also used its $9 million trade exception with Phoenix to complete the deal. The Sonics gained the exception from Orlando earlier this month when they completed a sign-and-trade deal that sent Rashard Lewis to the Magic.

 

Two weeks ago, the Sonics were looking at the possibility of letting Lewis walk and getting nothing in return. Now they have two extra #1s and Kurt Thomas, a valuable trading chip since he's a useful big man with an expiring contract.

[frank 2,345]

A player and two 1st round picks for a second round pick?

[GeminiV 0]

A player and two 1st round picks for a second round pick?

 

Phoenix is well over the luxury tax threshold, so trading Kurt Thomas's $8 million contract saves them $16 million. Phoenix's owner doesn't have the deep pockets of a Paul Allen or Mark Cuban, nor the huge market of NY or LA.

[yostevo 0]

Uh what?

[yostevo 0]

Phoenix is well over the luxury tax threshold, so trading Kurt Thomas's $8 million contract saves them $16 million.

 

Okay.... I get that but why would they have to also give up two first rounders?

[KSB2424 3,173]

Phoenix is well over the luxury tax threshold, so trading Kurt Thomas's $8 million contract saves them $16 million.

Yeah, pretty much sums it up. This move enables them to keep Marion.

[kutulu 1,703]

Looks like the NBA is trying to divert attention from the ref. gambling.

[GeminiV 0]

Okay.... I get that but why would they have to also give up two first rounders?

 

Phoenix has sold draft picks for a few seasons now. The whole league knows how desperate their owner is to avoid the luxury tax and only a couple teams were capable of absorbing Thomas's entire salary: the Sonics and Warriors with their trade exceptions, and maybe the Bobcats if they still have cap room. Purely a money move. I wonder if Steve Kerr is still glad he took the GM job.

[KSB2424 3,173]

Okay.... I get that but why would they have to also give up two first rounders?

 

That's what it took for the Sonics to take on a 8 million dollar contract for a washed up player with bad knees that can only go 15-20 minutes a game.

 

And remember this is the Suns first rounders. Prolly no lower than 25th pick the next few years.

[GeminiV 0]

That's what it took for the Sonics to take on a 8 million dollar contract for a washed up player with bad knees that can only go 15-20 minutes a game.

 

And remember this is the Suns first rounders. Prolly no lower than 25th pick the next few years.

 

One bad fall for Steve Nash could change that in a hurry... Gotta wonder what's going on in the desert. Did the owner not realize what would happen when he gave out all these contracts in the first place?

[Riddlen 1]

One bad fall for Steve Nash could change that in a hurry... Gotta wonder what's going on in the desert. Did the owner not realize what would happen when he gave out all these contracts in the first place?

I think he thought he wouls have wqon by now making it all worth wile

[itsbigmoni 1]

Too bad the 08 first round pick wasn't the hawks unprotected one. That would be a dangerous team then. Great move for the sonics.

 

I don't get this move though. This roster won't win the suns a championship. Say what you want about the spurs only winning because of the suspensions blah blah, but the spurs have owned them for a while. If the suns were so much more superior they would've won the series regardless. I say the pick in 2010 might be a lottery pick. Thats 3 seasons away. How old is nash, 33? I'm not sure how good the suns will be when by 2009 they'll be playing with a 4 man roster and a 35ish pg leading them. Maybe they'll make D'antoni into a player coach to save money.

[RicemanX 20]

09 I'm not worried about.

 

But SOnics having that 2010 pick is really dangerous to me. The Suns could be declining. Green and Durant should be well developed by then. THrow in someone to take Ridnour's spot, draft a PF star in 2010.

Sonics NBA champs in 2011?

[yostevo 0]

That's what it took for the Sonics to take on a 8 million dollar contract for a washed up player with bad knees that can only go 15-20 minutes a game.

 

And remember this is the Suns first rounders. Prolly no lower than 25th pick the next few years.

 

With how quickly things can change in this league, I'm thinking I want my 1st rd. picks in a few years. It's a gamble and they would bottom out real fast if something happens to their money makers.

[RicemanX 20]

With how quickly things can change in this league, I'm thinking I want my 1st rd. picks in a few years. It's a gamble and they would bottom out real fast if something happens to their money makers.

Especially in the West. You can get from 3rd seed to out of the playoffs REAL fast.

[yostevo 0]

Especially in the West. You can get from 3rd seed to out of the playoffs REAL fast.

 

[Strike 6,017]

I think this is a horrible move for the Suns. They were thin up front to begin with. Now they're thinner. And, no matter what the stats say, anyone who watches the NBA knows Kurt Thomas had a significant impact in the success the Suns enjoyed the last couple of years in the playoffs. His impact will be missed and, on a team more likely starting to decline, the impact could be more significant than might be thought. If they were so worried about salary maybe they should have passed on Grant Hill. I realize he's more skilled than Thomas but they've got multiple players that can play his position. They don't have a lot of guys to plug in for Thomas.

[itsbigmoni 1]

Grant Hill is a lot cheaper.

[KSB2424 3,173]

Grant Hill is a lot cheaper.

 

Exactly, Grant Hill came in on the cheap, less than 2 million a season. Kurt Thomas was scheduled to make over 8mil.

 

Of course the trade "heads up" is a windfall for the Sonics. But Pheonix is doing what they have to do to get under the luxury tax and keep their stars to make a run at the Title the next two years. If you you don't think a team with Nash, Barbosa, Bell, Hill, Marion, Diaw, and Amare has a shot to win it all the next two years then you are mistaken.

 

Running a NBA franchise isn't like running a Fantasy Team. There are alot of other factors to consider than just stockpiling the best talent you can.

[Strike 6,017]

Exactly, Grant Hill came in on the cheap, less than 2 million a season. Kurt Thomas was scheduled to make over 8mil.

 

Of course the trade "heads up" is a windfall for the Sonics. But Pheonix is doing what they have to do to get under the luxury tax and keep their stars to make a run at the Title the next two years. If you you don't think a team with Nash, Barbosa, Bell, Hill, Marion, Diaw, and Amare has a shot to win it all the next two years then you are mistaken.

 

Running a NBA franchise isn't like running a Fantasy Team. There are alot of other factors to consider than just stockpiling the best talent you can.

 

Doesn't matter. They didn't need another SF. He's a nice addition but when they have to play the Spurs or the Clippers they're gonna be screwed. IMO this takes them out of title contention, not that I thought they had a significant chance at a title anyways. Now they simply don't have the depth in the frontcourt to compete. They better have high hopes for Pat Burke

[Boston 0]

Good move for the Sonics...this will make the their fans in Oklahoma City very happy.

[itsbigmoni 1]

A short rotation can work in the playoffs, but not in the regular season. The suns might end up in a situation like the nugs? or was it the clips? where the 4th seeded team didn't have home court advantage. Not having homecourt will kinda suck for the suns. But if they play the starters like they did this season, will they have enough gas for the playoffs?

 

I think their window is closing though. The suns go as Nash goes. He's getting up there in age. I would say they have at max a 2 year window.

 

I think the spurs will beat them in the playoffs again next year. If the spurs didn't keep having 4th qtr meltdowns, a lot of those games wouldn't even have been as close as they were.

[RicemanX 20]

Well, at least the Suns didn't sign Rashard Lewis for $200 billion dollars...per year.

[KSB2424 3,173]

Which team is better for 07'/08'?

 

PG: Nash, Banks

SG: Bell, Barbosa

SF: Marion, James Jones

PF: Diaw, Thomas

C: Amare

 

OR

 

PG: Nash, Banks

SG: Bell, Barbosa, Strawberry

SF: G.Hill, Tucker

PF: Marion, Diaw

C: Amare

 

I'll go with the latter.....

[Strike 6,017]

Which team is better for 07'/08'?

 

PG: Nash, Banks

SG: Bell, Barbosa

SF: Marion, James Jones

PF: Diaw, Thomas

C: Amare

 

OR

 

PG: Nash, Banks

SG: Bell, Barbosa, Strawberry

SF: G.Hill, Tucker

PF: Marion, Diaw

C: Amare

 

I'll go with the latter.....

 

Marion is 6'7, Diaw 6'8. And who is going to spell Amare? Thomas could spell Amare as well as fill in at PF. And who is going to guard Duncan? Amare can't. He gets in foul trouble every time he tries. Thomas does a decent job. And god forbid Amare get injured. They have 0 depth at center. The Suns screwed themselves with this deal. Someone bump this thread in a year.

[KSB2424 3,173]

Marion is 6'7, Diaw 6'8. And who is going to spell Amare? Thomas could spell Amare as well as fill in at PF. And who is going to guard Duncan? Amare can't. He gets in foul trouble every time he tries. Thomas does a decent job. And god forbid Amare get injured. They have 0 depth at center. The Suns screwed themselves with this deal. Someone bump this thread in a year.

Can't a guy be optimistic. :sadbanana:

 

There is a lot of time before the season starts. I look for them to add some cheap front court players kinda like the Bucks did with Jake Voskul to add a little depth. Maybe even shop Banks around since he had a super summer (i.e. dropping 42pts in a game)

 

Marion plays ALOT bigger than his size on the boards and Diaw is a little better in the post than you think, but alas you may be right. However this team may be even more exciting to watch than last years.

[Strike 6,017]

Can't a guy be optimistic. :sadbanana:

 

There is a lot of time before the season starts. I look for them to add some cheap front court players kinda like the Bucks did with Jake Voskul to add a little depth. Maybe even shop Banks around since he had a super summer (i.e. dropping 42pts in a game)

 

Marion plays ALOT bigger than his size on the boards and Diaw is a little better in the post than you think, but alas you may be right. However this team may be even more exciting to watch than last years.

 

Not trying to rain on your parade. I just don't get it. I think they should have unloaded Banks cheap and not signed Grant Hill so they could keep Thomas. I don't know that there's any decent big guys for them to pick up before the season starts, especially at the price they want to pay, but I'll withhold final judgement until the season starts. And lastly, if Marion or Diaw could guard Duncan they would have already. I do like Steve Kerr and have to think he's given thought to some of these issues. But, if they don't make a move to add some depth in the PF/C positions they'll still be a good team but just can't see them getting past teams with legitimate depth there.

[itsbigmoni 1]

The lack of the depth is fine against most teams i would think. The big worries are the rockets and spurs. Maybe portland with Aldridge and Oden. I'm sure bynum might have a lil success but not be a game breaker.

 

But you also gotta think about the flip side. How are teams gonna guard both marion and amare. Its a mismatch both ways. If a coach gets scared (like Avery) then they might move their PF to the center slot and play small ball.

 

Just like the spurs let amare have his and try to lock everyone else down, maybe the suns will let the duncans and mings have theirs but try to lock everyone else down and take advantage of the mismatches when they're on offense.

[Strike 6,017]

The lack of the depth is fine against most teams i would think. The big worries are the rockets and spurs. Maybe portland with Aldridge and Oden. I'm sure bynum might have a lil success but not be a game breaker.

 

But you also gotta think about the flip side. How are teams gonna guard both marion and amare. Its a mismatch both ways. If a coach gets scared (like Avery) then they might move their PF to the center slot and play small ball.

 

Just like the spurs let amare have his and try to lock everyone else down, maybe the suns will let the duncans and mings have theirs but try to lock everyone else down and take advantage of the mismatches when they're on offense.

 

What are you talking about? Teams have had to worry about matching up with Amare/Marion at the same time for years. They haven't had any problem doing so.

[jerryskids 7,083]

Not trying to rain on your parade. I just don't get it. I think they should have unloaded Banks cheap and not signed Grant Hill so they could keep Thomas. I don't know that there's any decent big guys for them to pick up before the season starts, especially at the price they want to pay, but I'll withhold final judgement until the season starts. And lastly, if Marion or Diaw could guard Duncan they would have already. I do like Steve Kerr and have to think he's given thought to some of these issues. But, if they don't make a move to add some depth in the PF/C positions they'll still be a good team but just can't see them getting past teams with legitimate depth there.

As a Suns homer I'll chime in here. The move was purely financial (Kerr said so on local radio), and I'm not in a position to tell Sarver how to spend his money. Hopefully this at a minimum allows them to keep Marion, who is possibly the most underrated player in the league.

 

That being said, I'll be interested to see the impact this has on Amare. Amare has never considered himself a center. Thomas was IMO a psychological security blanket to him; the guy who would come in and body up guys like Duncan (if the Spurs go small) or other big oofs on other teams. Now the Suns are saying, "you are the only center, Amare, good luck with that." Unless you consider Diaw or Sean Marks adequate centers.

 

I thought that bringing in Bell and Thomas, both of whom were clearly to help get over the Spurs hump, were positive moves by the Suns. It is a moot argument, but I think the team as is (was) could have won a title. I don't subscribe to the "they didn't win so you have to mix it up" mentality; sometimes things just don't go your way.

 

Anyway, after all of this rambling, I think that from a basketball standpoint the deal sucks just for getting rid of Thomas. I won't even mention the '10 first rounder.

[itsbigmoni 1]

What are you talking about? Teams have had to worry about matching up with Amare/Marion at the same time for years. They haven't had any problem doing so.

 

Are you serious? They just had the 2nd best record by accident? I think they would beat the mavs in a 7 game series. Not enough teams have talented enough bigs to create the mismatch in their favor. More often than not, marion will have more points, about the same amount of boards, and probably more assists. I think the spurs are the best team in the league, then the suns, mavs, rockets and after that there is a big drop off.

[GeminiV 0]

Not trying to rain on your parade. I just don't get it. I think they should have unloaded Banks cheap and not signed Grant Hill so they could keep Thomas. I don't know that there's any decent big guys for them to pick up before the season starts, especially at the price they want to pay, but I'll withhold final judgement until the season starts. And lastly, if Marion or Diaw could guard Duncan they would have already. I do like Steve Kerr and have to think he's given thought to some of these issues. But, if they don't make a move to add some depth in the PF/C positions they'll still be a good team but just can't see them getting past teams with legitimate depth there.

 

I think you're painting a bit of a grim picture here. Diaw's cutting and passing make him a much better offensive center for Phoenix than Thomas, who is basically limited to spot-up jumpers. Do they have an answer for Duncan yet? No, but they haven't for the past few seasons, either. Thomas isn't the answer. He's a physical and skilled defender, but he doesn't have the quickness to threaten Duncan's handle, nor the height to bother his shot.

 

Pending further moves, Phoenix's best shot at a title is the same as last season: hope Dallas takes out San Antonio, then take out Dallas.

[itsbigmoni 1]

I think you're painting a bit of a grim picture here. Diaw's cutting and passing make him a much better offensive center for Phoenix than Thomas, who is basically limited to spot-up jumpers. Do they have an answer for Duncan yet? No, but they haven't for the past few seasons, either. Thomas isn't the answer. He's a physical and skilled defender, but he doesn't have the quickness to threaten Duncan's handle, nor the height to bother his shot.

 

Pending further moves, Phoenix's best shot at a title is the same as last season: hope Dallas takes out San Antonio, then take out Dallas.

 

 

As a spurs fan, i can't tell you how frustrating it was to watch a "scrub" like thomas give Duncan all those problems. He was pretty effective. Duncan would do the same move most of the time, fake right, spin left and do a lil hook shot. But you're right, with him in the game, duncan had more freedom defensively.

[Strike 6,017]

I think you're painting a bit of a grim picture here. Diaw's cutting and passing make him a much better offensive center for Phoenix than Thomas, who is basically limited to spot-up jumpers. Do they have an answer for Duncan yet? No, but they haven't for the past few seasons, either. Thomas isn't the answer. He's a physical and skilled defender, but he doesn't have the quickness to threaten Duncan's handle, nor the height to bother his shot.

 

Pending further moves, Phoenix's best shot at a title is the same as last season: hope Dallas takes out San Antonio, then take out Dallas.

 

I'll admit I'm a bit pessimistic. I've made no secret of the fact that, while I find the Suns entertaining to watch, I don't believe that style of play has much chance of winning a championship. Now, you take away the one guy who can play tough D against the best post up frontcourt players on other teams, and I think those chances are even slimmer. I could be wrong. We're all here to express opinions right?

[t.j 35]

Can someone explain to me what exactly the $8M trade exception is, and why it has value? TIA.

[itsbigmoni 1]

You know how teams have to match salaries within 15% (or is it 20% now?) when trading players? Well, if one team is far enough under the salary cap to the point where they can absorb the incomings player without going over the cap, they don't need to match salaries.

 

Since the Magic were way under the cap, they didn't have to match salaries. Magic got Lewis and in return, the sonics got the trade exception. It can be used like a player if a team you're trading with is near the salary cap. The 8M doesn't count against the cap. So if you're at 58m and have a player you wanna get rid of who makes 8M, you trade him to the sonics, who'll trade you a 8M exception. Now, your payroll is 50M, but if you want, you can use that trade exception in future trades to make salaries match.

 

I'm sure i got some of it wrong, but thats the jist of it. Same thing with the bobcats. They could absorb Richardson contract without goin over the cap, so they sent back a trade exception.

[t.j 35]

Cool, thanks, that makes sense

[Strike 6,017]

Can someone explain to me what exactly the $8M trade exception is, and why it has value? TIA.

 

Read #69 here:

 

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

 

I think the reason it's important here is that normally you have to trade fairly equal salaries in a trade. Obviously, the Suns didn't player salaries. The trade exception allowed them to make this trade without receiving equal player salaries in the transaction.

[RicemanX 20]

Trade exceptions are huge these days.

Like someone said before, that trade exception gives the SUns the chance to keep Marion. Add Marion to that trade, and you can see it is pretty good for the Suns, even if the Sonics got a better deal overall.

 

The JRich trade was the same. THe warriors will now have a chance to keep Monta Ellis AND Biedriens instead of having to choose only one out of the two.

[itsbigmoni 1]

Also, for cap purposes, draft picks have no monetary value in trades.