Help with a dispute

[JibbaJabbah 0]

Here is a situation that has happened to a league that I am in. I will not put my opinion on what I think on this so that we all can be fair on what is best in this situation.

 

There is a 3 way tie for the wild card in our league. All teams have the exact same record.

 

Here is our tiebreakers:

 

Winning %

h2h

Total points.

 

Here are the 3 teams and what they did against each other in this league. Please note, these three teams all did not play the same amount of games against each other due to 2 teams being in the same division.

 

So, how do you decide a 3 way tie using H2H scoring? Here are the teams record against each other.

 

Team A beat team B, but lost 2 times to Team C

Team B beat team C, but lost to team A

 

So one team A 1-2 (combined against these teams), Team C was 1-1 and Team B was 2-1.

 

In regards to total points, Team A has the most, Team B has the 2nd most, Team C was in 3ed.

 

It seems that no matter what team we let go through based on h2h, one team will have to be out though they beat that team, which was the first tiebreaker.

 

Being that our rules were not as clear as they should be for a 3 team tie, how would you handle this? Does this move to the next tiebreaker, or do you break out h2h and make a decision? If you break this down in h2h, where can I find a resource to find the best way to do that? I read what the NFL does, but in our league, our division teams don't play each team the same amount of times. Some play each other 2 times, others one time.

 

A final decision was made already, and I will post that later, but I wanted to gather thoughts first for research purposes.

[eliplaxshock 0]

As far as im concerned it goes straight to the next tiebreaker. The h2h is only if the teams play each other an equal amount of games

[JibbaJabbah 0]

Please keep these replies coming. My commish does read this and I want him to see what other people think about this who have no interests.

 

 

 

Please any more feedback on all sides of this will help.

[kwhiz73 0]

skip the h2h and use the total points. If there was an unequal amount of h2h games it would only make sense.

 

 

I'm going to assume the tiebreak went to team B which isn't right or fair. h2h needs to be discounted when more than 2 teams are involved, because its no longer defined as h2h.....its more like h2h2h which is not on your list.

[Lions or Die 0]

Texas!

 

Sorry, wrong thread.

 

But seriously folks, without the same amount of games played between the 3 that tie break should be skipped.

 

In the NFL the two teams in the same division would first go through a tie-break (1. Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division) and then the other two teams would go through a tie breaker. Of course, your rules don't state that so they don't apply here, but may be worth considering for the future. I expect you might not like that if you are Team A and Team A and C are in the same division as I suspect.

[triple_f 0]

I'd go total points. The h2h matchups tend to be lopsided at times...I have seen too many times when the guy with the top points for the week plays the guy with the second most. Don't let this effect who gets into the playoffs.

 

TOTAL POINTS

[$epphori$ 118]

I agree..... u go to the next tie breaker

[MarquetteMan 0]

Got to go with the rules you set in place. This is too bad for team A, but based on head to head, team C (2-1) and B (1-1) get in on the head to head rule, that has a higher priority. I also would change your rules for next year to clear a situation like this up.

 

Or, you could do like the BCS, just take a coached poll, and randomly shaft Texas... um some team in the league.

[JibbaJabbah 0]

Got to go with the rules you set in place. This is too bad for team A, but based on head to head, team C (2-1) and B (1-1) get in on the head to head rule, that has a higher priority. I also would change your rules for next year to clear a situation like this up.

 

Or, you could do like the BCS, just take a coached poll, and randomly shaft Texas... um some team in the league.

 

 

I am also ok with this decision listed above.

 

As a note, the final decisino was:

 

 

The team with the 1-1 record gets to make the playoffs. The team that was 2-1 did not get the nod because that team lost to the 1-1 team. Whats crazy is the team that was 1-2 beat the team getting the nod for the playoffs.

 

I felt either we moved to another tiebreaker and/or the team with the most wins of the group (even though its not fully fair) was better than the team that only beat 1 of the two teams involved. Maybe I am crazy though.

[JibbaJabbah 0]

Got to go with the rules you set in place. This is too bad for team A, but based on head to head, team C (2-1) and B (1-1) get in on the head to head rule, that has a higher priority. I also would change your rules for next year to clear a situation like this up.

 

Or, you could do like the BCS, just take a coached poll, and randomly shaft Texas... um some team in the league.

 

 

Only 1 slot for 1 team available. So you are saying hte team with 2 wins and the best winning % combined should make it?

[JibbaJabbah 0]

Texas!

 

Sorry, wrong thread.

 

But seriously folks, without the same amount of games played between the 3 that tie break should be skipped.

 

In the NFL the two teams in the same division would first go through a tie-break (1. Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division) and then the other two teams would go through a tie breaker. Of course, your rules don't state that so they don't apply here, but may be worth considering for the future. I expect you might not like that if you are Team A and Team A and C are in the same division as I suspect.

 

 

I seen this rule, but in the NFL, all teams play each other an = amount of times. In our league, teams do not play each other the same amount of times. Some teams play teams in their division 2 times where others play only 1 time. Makes me think division standing is tricky to call like the NFL does.

 

I respect this opinion above and thank you for the info.

[Wayno1 0]

Go to total points. You can not use H2H if there's an unequal amount of played games.

[hephner 0]

I agree that the H2H tiebreaker is far too muddy to be applied here, without being properly defined in your rules. Gotta go to total points. It's the most fair for all teams involved.

[nicewolf64 0]

I would have gone with either the 2-1 for having the best record amongst the tied team. Or go total points. Sounds like the commish picked a team, then made a rule to support his decision. Leagues shouldn't work like that and I'd be looking for a more honest commish.

[dalej1 0]

I am also ok with this decision listed above.

 

As a note, the final decisino was:

The team with the 1-1 record gets to make the playoffs. The team that was 2-1 did not get the nod because that team lost to the 1-1 team. Whats crazy is the team that was 1-2 beat the team getting the nod for the playoffs.

 

I felt either we moved to another tiebreaker and/or the team with the most wins of the group (even though its not fully fair) was better than the team that only beat 1 of the two teams involved. Maybe I am crazy though.

 

I may be confused, but this makes no sense. If you go by H2H, then team B (2-1) should be in. If you say H2H doesn't make sense because of the game differentials, then team A with the most points should be in. You are saying team C is in? How?

[JibbaJabbah 0]

I may be confused, but this makes no sense. If you go by H2H, then team B (2-1) should be in. If you say H2H doesn't make sense because of the game differentials, then team A with the most points should be in. You are saying team C is in? How?

 

 

Here was the reason for the decision that was given:

 

It was said that since two teams are in the same division, and one team beat the other 2 times, the team that lost there was behind in the division standings, therefore, should not be considered in the next "match up". Then he takes the 2-1 team, puts them side by side with the 1-1 team, and chooses the 1-1 team © because they beat the 2-1 team. So the team that will get the nod only split 1-1 with these other two teams.

 

What I don't like, is that the team that makes the playoffs based on this decision (by our current rules), is technically behind the team that misses out of the playoffs since they lost to that team. I even asked the league now that we know 3 team ties like this can happen, and with our rules, when do we really move on to the next tiebreaker.....I thought this was evident, but maybe it was just me.

 

In regards to the note on our commish, yes, our commish does play the team that is "selected" in this mess. He has been the commish of this league for years and has never been an issue, and actually, is a close personal friend. I asked for a link to where they came up with the above breakdown, like was it NFL, NCAA's, FF, and they really have not given me a link or a resource. The NFL is the closest system I have seen to this, but with the NFL, division standings are "true" since they all played each other the same amount, not some here and there. It just seems like h2h is being examined by opinions, and when it gets to that point, makes sense to move on.

 

Another owner in the same league said "One team would have to sweep the other two teams for the tiebreaker to work, or then it has to go to another tiebreaker." The commish has not said why this idea is either correct or wrong.

[mrgymrat 0]

I would have broke the tie between the division foes and then went with total pts between the remaining two teams or just went with total pts (since you can't use H2H w/ the uneven # of games).

[JibbaJabbah 0]

I would have broke the tie between the division foes and then went with total pts between the remaining two teams or just went with total pts (since you can't use H2H w/ the uneven # of games).

 

 

Legit solution. I agree. The question is, at this point, is all of this really just opinion on how to break down the h2h tiebreaker between these three teams? Who is right? I can't even find a correct answer for this. Thats why I figured another tiebreaker was needed.

[GridironGuzzlers 3]

This is another example of why total points should be the first tiebreaker--no disputes. But because of your rule it comes out a littly screwy but you should stick with it.

Also, since it came up in this thread, I don't understand why so many people think Texas got shafted. Using your logic you Texas fans should lobby for Texas Tech to be the Big 12 South Champ. Same record, and beat you. If you want to cry about H2H then put Texas Tech ahead of Texas. I don't hear any Tech fans screaming about their win over Texas and conveniently forgetting their loss to Ok. Texas will still go to a BCS bowl and Tech won't. How is that fair to Tech? You have to throw out H2H. Out of the 3 teams all beating each other Oklahoma by far had the most impressive win and had much better non conference wins

[jdon 28]

This is another example of why total points should be the first tiebreaker--no disputes. But because of your rule it comes out a littly screwy but you should stick with it.

Also, since it came up in this thread, I don't understand why so many people think Texas got shafted. Using your logic you Texas fans should lobby for Texas Tech to be the Big 12 South Champ. Same record, and beat you. If you want to cry about H2H then put Texas Tech ahead of Texas. I don't hear any Tech fans screaming about their win over Texas and conveniently forgetting their loss to Ok. Texas will still go to a BCS bowl and Tech won't. How is that fair to Tech? You have to throw out H2H. Out of the 3 teams all beating each other Oklahoma by far had the most impressive win and had much better non conference wins

 

 

total points should always be the tie breaker when it comes to playoff teams... the only exception would be division winners who should be decided first by division record, then by head to head, then by total points...

jdon

[We Tigers 71]

Poor decision by the commish, but worse decision not to anticipate 3-way ties. You really can't do a fair H2H tiebreaker when they haven't played the same amount of games against each other. Your league's rules should be amended for next season; for now, total points was the only fair way to do it.

 

And wait a second: rereading, the team that was selected--the one with the fewest points--was the commish's team? He just screwed you all.

[IAMWood 6]

This is another example of why total points should be the first tiebreaker--no disputes. But because of your rule it comes out a littly screwy but you should stick with it.

Also, since it came up in this thread, I don't understand why so many people think Texas got shafted. Using your logic you Texas fans should lobby for Texas Tech to be the Big 12 South Champ. Same record, and beat you. If you want to cry about H2H then put Texas Tech ahead of Texas. I don't hear any Tech fans screaming about their win over Texas and conveniently forgetting their loss to Ok. Texas will still go to a BCS bowl and Tech won't. How is that fair to Tech? You have to throw out H2H. Out of the 3 teams all beating each other Oklahoma by far had the most impressive win and had much better non conference wins

 

Do you hear any Texas fans crying about it, seriously? I don't, I post more than any other Texas fan here and I have always said don't leave your fate in the hands of other people or you have the chance to get the shaft. We had our chance on the field and blew it. Yeah, many fans lobbied for voters with their 45-35 signs, seems to have paid off as human polls like Texas better. The computers didn't care and took ou. We beat them on the field, outplayed them on all sides of the ball. That's our case. The Tech game we got rattled, had an absolutely horrible 1st half, <== which could cost us our shot, and couldn't close the deal in the 2nd half. I think Tech and Texas both got the shaft and college football fans even more so, what a great playoff we would have this year. Wow. Just gotta move on, the players have learned a life lesson, we will cover the spread in our bowl game, mark my words.

 

 

 

Oh yeah, playoff tiebreakers should always be total points

 

1. easy to see and discern

2. you play head to head all year, make total points worth something

[JibbaJabbah 0]

Poor decision by the commish, but worse decision not to anticipate 3-way ties. You really can't do a fair H2H tiebreaker when they haven't played the same amount of games against each other. Your league's rules should be amended for next season; for now, total points was the only fair way to do it.

 

And wait a second: rereading, the team that was selected--the one with the fewest points--was the commish's team? He just screwed you all.

 

The team the commish selected was in the middle of the pack of the 3 teams in terms of total scoring. The team that went 2-1 for our h2h threesome, actually was in last in the league in total points.

 

I still just have one question, at what point do you say h2h tiebreaker does not work and move on? And if you do the h2h thing, is there really a correct answer to "officially" break that down or is it just a matter of opinion?

[Stewburtx8 67]

This is another example of why total points should be the first tiebreaker--no disputes. But because of your rule it comes out a littly screwy but you should stick with it.

Also, since it came up in this thread, I don't understand why so many people think Texas got shafted. Using your logic you Texas fans should lobby for Texas Tech to be the Big 12 South Champ. Same record, and beat you. If you want to cry about H2H then put Texas Tech ahead of Texas. I don't hear any Tech fans screaming about their win over Texas and conveniently forgetting their loss to Ok. Texas will still go to a BCS bowl and Tech won't. How is that fair to Tech? You have to throw out H2H. Out of the 3 teams all beating each other Oklahoma by far had the most impressive win and had much better non conference wins

 

 

Agree with total points being used. You can not apply head to head to an unbalanced schedule unless all three teams played each other an equal amount of times.

 

Im not a fan of any of these teams or the Big 12 but the argument comes down to this....look at Texas Tech's out of conference strengh of schedule. It is no where in the same league as Oklahoma or Texas (Texas played Mizzou in cross conference). You can't beat two teams from the FCS and consider yourself a great BCS contender. In my opinion this removes Texas Tech from the argument. In which case, looking at Texas and Oklahoma, Texas beat them on a NEUTRAL field. They already decided it ON THE FIELD. Texas didn't get the benefit of playing either team at HOME. They had to play at Texas Tech in the biggest game in Tech history, and they lost on a last second play. Computer rankings are a joke. Texas can score with Oklahoma and Texas has the better defense. Just cuz Bob Stoops consistently runs the score up and looks impressive at year end, does not mean you can overlook the fact that Texas already beat them. I just think Texas got shafted on this one. Oklahoma will be a fine representative, I just think Texas is the better team, because they actually play a little defense.

[GridironGuzzlers 3]

You cannot simply say that Texas Tech won on a last second play. Tech was winning most of the game, thoroughly outplaying them for 3 quarters. It took a Texas comeback to take the lead near the end, but then their defense still could not hold the lead. I agree that Texas has a beef, but I think Ok would have a bigger beef if they were left out. I'm not sure why Florida is getting so much credit. The SEC is not that good this year, and their 1 loss is much worse than that of Texas, OK, Texas Tech, and USC.

[Bert 1,091]

Simple Team B. The rules say head to head is the first tie breaker team B is 2-1 against the other teams. Stop making things more complicated than they are.

[Stewburtx8 67]

You cannot simply say that Texas Tech won on a last second play. Tech was winning most of the game, thoroughly outplaying them for 3 quarters. It took a Texas comeback to take the lead near the end, but then their defense still could not hold the lead. I agree that Texas has a beef, but I think Ok would have a bigger beef if they were left out. I'm not sure why Florida is getting so much credit. The SEC is not that good this year, and their 1 loss is much worse than that of Texas, OK, Texas Tech, and USC.

 

 

Obviously you can argue this either way. When you're talking about 2 pretty damn even teams you're going to have people on either side. I just think that Texas playing 4 straight teams in the top 10, and going 3-1, with their lone loss on the last play of the game, was just more impressive. Like I said, that was Tech's biggest game in school history. They couldnt have been more up for that game. Texas was walking in to a bad situation and was coming off 3 straight tough games, with no time off in between. I just think their Neutral field win over Oklahoma is more important than any other argument someone wants to make. I did watch the whole Texas vs Texas Tech game, but i didn't really WATCH it, if u know what i mean. I was in Atlantic City and gambling and drinking some during it. Yes Tech played one hell of a game, but so did Texas, and they never quit.

 

I think both teams are in the top 3 or 4 teams in the country. Florida just impresses me cuz of their team speed. Theyre faster than neone in the country. And as an all around player, I'll take Tebow and Harvin over anyone. But im not an SEC fan either. You're right, it is VERY overrated this year. After Florida and Alabama, I dont see any very good teams.

[JibbaJabbah 0]

Simple Team B. The rules say head to head is the first tie breaker team B is 2-1 against the other teams. Stop making things more complicated than they are.

 

Though I was the total points leader of the 3, above what my gut feeling when I seen this too. Though that team is last in points, if the h2h tie breaker is in place, i guess go with that. I just don't like that we have listed like 4 ways to do this already. Just seems like another tiebreaker would have been easier.

[Bert 1,091]

I am also ok with this decision listed above.

 

As a note, the final decisino was:

The team with the 1-1 record gets to make the playoffs. The team that was 2-1 did not get the nod because that team lost to the 1-1 team. Whats crazy is the team that was 1-2 beat the team getting the nod for the playoffs.

 

I felt either we moved to another tiebreaker and/or the team with the most wins of the group (even though its not fully fair) was better than the team that only beat 1 of the two teams involved. Maybe I am crazy though.

 

Your commish should be shot in front of his wife and kids. Why even have rules if you are not going to follow them. If the rule sucks change it in the off season but to arbitrarily not follow a rule is bullshat. Team B should refuse to pay and leave the league.

[FlaHawker 24]

This is crazy. H2H works. We use it:

 

Tie Breaker (for standings) Explanation:

 

For wild card berths, division record will be omitted and we will go to Head to Head and then Total Points.

 

How does that work if more than 2 teams are tied for the wild card?

 

The software calculates the winning percentage of the teams that are tied ONLY in games that they played against each

other and uses this as the head-to-head tie breaker for more than 2 teams. A team that has not played the other tied

teams (having a record of 0-0) has, by default, a .500 record. So, if 3 teams are tied and their records against each

other are, respectively, 2-1, 0-0, and 1-2, the 2-1 (.667) team is first in the standings, the 0-0 (.500) team is

second and the 1-2 (.333) team is third.

 

Simple. The hottest team at the time or the best team may not get in because of this, but that happens in the NFL as well. Everyone in our league voted on this rule and understands it. It sounds like all these wacky tie breaker issues are happening because the league members are simply not aware of their own rules. Learn your rules in August--itsatip

[Stewburtx8 67]

This is crazy. H2H works. We use it:

 

Tie Breaker (for standings) Explanation:

 

For wild card berths, division record will be omitted and we will go to Head to Head and then Total Points.

 

How does that work if more than 2 teams are tied for the wild card?

 

The software calculates the winning percentage of the teams that are tied ONLY in games that they played against each

other and uses this as the head-to-head tie breaker for more than 2 teams. A team that has not played the other tied

teams (having a record of 0-0) has, by default, a .500 record. So, if 3 teams are tied and their records against each

other are, respectively, 2-1, 0-0, and 1-2, the 2-1 (.667) team is first in the standings, the 0-0 (.500) team is

second and the 1-2 (.333) team is third.

 

Simple. The hottest team at the time or the best team may not get in because of this, but that happens in the NFL as well. Everyone in our league voted on this rule and understands it. It sounds like all these wacky tie breaker issues are happening because the league members are simply not aware of their own rules. Learn your rules in August--itsatip

 

I'll agree that the league needs to vote on tiebreaker rules and make sure they are clear. If they work for your league and everyone is OK with it, then I guess thats how it goes. Personally I don't know how you can apply head to head to teams unless they each played each other once or each played each other twice, etc. It is not a true head to head if the teams didn't play each other the same number of times. You can not apply head to head to an unbalanced schedule. This is why TOTAL POINTS is the only true tiebreaker in FANTASY football. Head to head is all "fantasy." Your team does not know who it has beat and who it hasn't. It's not like real life where teams decided it on the field. There is no field, everything is on paper. Total points represent who's collection of players scored the most points over the course of a season. You can't argue with that and it doesn't lead to situations like this. I think your example is even more ridiculous where a team may have not played EITHER of the other teams yet has head to head applied to decide if the team makes the playoffs or not. Thats crazy. But just my opinion. Everyone has their own, and like i said, if the league agrees to it and it is understood, thats all that matters

[FlaHawker 24]

This is why TOTAL POINTS is the only true tiebreaker in FANTASY football. Head to head is all "fantasy." Your team does not know who it has beat and who it hasn't. It's not like real life where teams decided it on the field. There is no field, everything is on paper. Total points represent who's collection of players scored the most points over the course of a season. You can't argue with that and it doesn't lead to situations like this. I think your example is even more ridiculous where a team may have not played EITHER of the other teams yet has head to head applied to decide if the team makes the playoffs or not. Thats crazy. But just my opinion. Everyone has their own, and like i said, if the league agrees to it and it is understood, thats all that matters

The 0-0 was just an example. For example we had a three way tie breaker used to choose two wild cards. All three teams finished 7-6. The tie breaker broke down this way Team A was 2-1, Team B was 1-1 and Team C was 1-2. Team A and team B made the playoffs. Simple. No disputes because EVERYONE KNEW THE RULES!! Like I said, it is every league member's duty to understand the rules. If something is unclear, get it cleared up in August, not after week 13.

[JibbaJabbah 0]

As an update, the commish decided to let the league vote which team should be in. Seems appropriate based upon these events and I am sure no self interests will apply here.....LOL

 

Thanks for all the feedback.

[Stewburtx8 67]

The 0-0 was just an example. For example we had a three way tie breaker used to choose two wild cards. All three teams finished 7-6. The tie breaker broke down this way Team A was 2-1, Team B was 1-1 and Team C was 1-2. Team A and team B made the playoffs. Simple. No disputes because EVERYONE KNEW THE RULES!! Like I said, it is every league member's duty to understand the rules. If something is unclear, get it cleared up in August, not after week 13.

 

I'll agree with this. I still don't like it because the head to head portion is unbalanced and each team didn't get an equal shot against each other team. But like you said, it works for your league and everyone agrees upon it. Thats the most important lesson here, make sure your rules are clearly established BEFORE the draft or at the draft at least.

[De Novo 0]

H2H tiebreakers suck because of bye weeks and the possibility of a 3-way tie. A good commish would put this up for vote, since the rules aren't clear, and the commish is conflicted.

[BMoney 0]

the team thats 2-1 has the best tiebreaker record...you cant penalize the team that went 2-1 just because of the unbalanced schedule..its what was agreed upon

 

if thats not a way you want to settle it....you go to total points...

 

after that, wifes/gals can size....the biggest moves on...

[FlaHawker 24]

Thats the most important lesson here, make sure your rules are clearly established BEFORE the draft or at the draft at least.

Amen!

[Mephisto 15]

As far as im concerned it goes straight to the next tiebreaker. The h2h is only if the teams play each other an equal amount of games

 

Wrong. It goes straight to the first tiebreaker no matter if there is an "uneven" number of games played. The best HTH records amongst all tied teams is the first tiebreaker and therefore, the 1-2 team is out. Problem solved.

 

The rules are not "unclear." The rules are very clear, whether or not people understand how HTH tiebreakers work is immaterial. It's the rule. And the only way HTH is applied is as I (and at least one other) has described. It doesn't matter who played how or how many times. It's the best HTH winning percentage HTH amongst all tied teams regardless of the number of times who played who.

 

If anyone in your league thinks that the 1-2 team should make the playoffs - they should be drawn and quartered.

[JibbaJabbah 0]

Wrong. It goes straight to the first tiebreaker no matter if there is an "uneven" number of games played. The best HTH records amongst all tied teams is the first tiebreaker and therefore, the 1-2 team is out. Problem solved.

 

The rules are not "unclear." The rules are very clear, whether or not people understand how HTH tiebreakers work is immaterial. It's the rule. And the only way HTH is applied is as I (and at least one other) has described. It doesn't matter who played how or how many times. It's the best HTH winning percentage HTH amongst all tied teams regardless of the number of times who played who.

 

If anyone in your league thinks that the 1-2 team should make the playoffs - they should be drawn and quartered.

 

Thats the problem. The team that was 1-1 got the nod. Though one can argue that this is fair/unfair way to break up h2h, I felt if you went h2h you HAD to go with the team that had the best winning % of the group. I had the team with the highest total points, but I was 0-2 against one of the teams, if we stay in h2h format, I know I am out. That is why I questioned how the 1-1 team can even be the choice here regardless.

[Boston Three Party 6]

What an absolutley horrible way to move on.

 

I hope no one has big money on the line.