Are UNION'S good or bad for America?

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

With most of your post they have no argument for them, as usual deflect and distract.

It's fun to watch

You have some recliner sauce on your third chin. You seemed to have cleaned your first, second, and fourth. I remember reading an artucle that the third chin is the easiest to miss when grooming ones self.

 

The moz and skibum both said how they dislike unions so i dont see how i am only looking for the response of people that agree. Also, the moz was the first to mention how rp inserting himself meant the most likely quick death of the thread.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

Your link shows and average salary of $80K in St. Paul (not a high priced area at all). That works out to be $38.50 an hour, much closer to the 42 than the 18 you mention. I am assuming that doesn't cover the benefits (don't they get killer pensions?).

Our pension in chicago is far from killer. Even if i worked 2000 hours every year for 30 years it comes out to a little over $40k a year, and there is no way i am working that much my entire career.

 

One new retirement benefit is $5 fpr every hour we work goes into an annuity fun which rolls into our 401k. It does not count against the $17.5 k i am allowed to put in per year.

 

Pensions vary wildly from local to local. Some guys will be getting like $12k a year because their pension investments tanked.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

Also, the moz was the first to mention how rp inserting himself meant the most likely quick death of the thread.

You should stick to defending your slow-witted union brethren and refrain from personal attacks. Ya know, go keep the discussion on the high intellectual level you seem to think it is on

[The Moz 69]

Ok i remember that now. Yeah thats how the laborers went from $28 an hour to $35 an hour. Even we were like, huh?

 

In chicago the other unuons did stand down, but outside the city limits we did not sut home. The strike didnt last long either.

I know it only lasted a few weeks but I work with one of the major General contractors in Chicago and those few weeks felt like a year as no one was working - That's why I thought all the unions shutdown in support. I know the fitters we had on the job I was on from "Great Lakes" didn't show up. I guess technically it was just the Operators and Laborers. So outside of Cook county the local let you work?

[The Moz 69]

You should stick to defending your slow-witted union brethren and refrain from personal attacks. Ya know, go keep the discussion on the high intellectual level you seem to think it is on

 

I am not union in fact I am even republican. I just don't like how you tend to make every thread you post in a political argument when you don't know a damn thing about it most of the time. FBN and I actually work in the industry. Sorry if that offended you just seems like every time you interject in a thread it's rooned.

[the body 0]

Skilled labor is not cheap and cheap labor is not skilled. Your choice.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

I am not union in fact I am even republican. I just don't like how you tend to make every thread you post in a political argument when you don't know a damn thing about it most of the time. FBN and I actually work in the industry. Sorry if that offended you just seems like every time you interject in a thread it's rooned.

If you don't know about the huge political angle to unions I question your claim of working in the industry.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

Sorry if that offended you just seems like every time you interject in a thread it's rooned.

 

Ruining threads is what trolls like RP live for

[The Moz 69]

If you don't know about the huge political angle to unions I question your claim of working in the industry.

 

You don't think I know about the political impact the Trade unions have especially in cities like NYC and Chicago - then you didn't read the other things I posted in here. As a GC I wish everything was non-union as it would be a lot cheaper with a lot less hassle -- at the same time I don't go in with the mentality that Unions = Democrats so Unions = bad. Unlike you just because I disagree with something doesn't mean I can't have an understanding for it on some level.

[DankNuggs 305]

I think they help contribute to lower economic output.

[The Moz 69]

Skilled labor is not cheap and cheap labor is not skilled. Your choice.

 

 

That's why there's a bidding a vetting process before we choose what Subs we want - it isn't always about who comes in as low bidder. Even with unions there are some shops that suck regardless. If all the trades were non-union in Chicago there would still be good shops out there (even at a "cheaper" price). But in Chicago Unions will never go away so as a GC you live with it.

[DankNuggs 305]

Skilled labor is not cheap and cheap labor is not skilled. Your choice.

Meh, skilled labor doesn't require membership in a union, and being in a union doesn't mean you are skilled labor... We can play this game all day.

 

 

Union or not you need quality people.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

I know it only lasted a few weeks but I work with one of the major General contractors in Chicago and those few weeks felt like a year as no one was working - That's why I thought all the unions shutdown in support. I know the fitters we had on the job I was on from "Great Lakes" didn't show up. I guess technically it was just the Operators and Laborers. So outside of Cook county the local let you work?

The reason we were able to work was we were in a refinery on the national maintanence agreement. If you are on that type of agreement it is basically a breech of contract to strike. If you do strike your hall gets fined a ton of money, around $25k a day. You dont even have to strike. If your emoyees dont show up to the job it counts as breech of contract. Thats only for jobs on that agreement which is usually refineries and big projects.

 

When indiana was in the midst of right to work just about all the unions except the fitters went to indi to protest the bill. Afterward they called us scabs because we wouldnt go down, though it was because of the NMA. We knew going down there wouldnt change the outcome and we would have to fight the bill in other ways, but leaving the job fpr 2 days was the dumbest thing to do at that point.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

You don't think I know about the political impact the Trade unions have especially in cities like NYC and Chicago - then you didn't read the other things I posted in here. As a GC I wish everything was non-union as it would be a lot cheaper with a lot less hassle -- at the same time I don't go in with the mentality that Unions = Democrats so Unions = bad. Unlike you just because I disagree with something doesn't mean I can't have an understanding for it on some level.

Compare the amount of money unions give to dems vs reps and get back to me.

 

Oh, I understand unions. Not hard to figure out.

[NewbieJr 540]

I have no problem with unions in the trades, but I think prevailing wage is a crock of shiot.

[The Moz 69]

Compare the amount of money unions give to dems vs reps and get back to me.

 

Oh, I understand unions. Not hard to figure out.

 

 

Okay what's your point? Even the most diehard Democrats here would not deny the Trade Local's strong support of Democratic party... Just like you would not deny the support most big businesses have for the GOP.

[The Moz 69]

The reason we were able to work was we were in a refinery on the national maintanence agreement. If you are on that type of agreement it is basically a breech of contract to strike. If you do strike your hall gets fined a ton of money, around $25k a day. You dont even have to strike. If your emoyees dont show up to the job it counts as breech of contract. Thats only for jobs on that agreement which is usually refineries and big projects.

 

When indiana was in the midst of right to work just about all the unions except the fitters went to indi to protest the bill. Afterward they called us scabs because we wouldnt go down, though it was because of the NMA. We knew going down there wouldnt change the outcome and we would have to fight the bill in other ways, but leaving the job fpr 2 days was the dumbest thing to do at that point.

 

Amazing how Laborers get 35 an hour to push a broom or hold a sign.

[jerryskids 5,207]

Fair or unfair, my attitude towards unions was form at McCormack Place in Chicago. We had to have our trade show booths setup, but were not allowed to do any of our own work. Not even the turning of a screwdriver. The rate for help was insane and I got to watch 7 guys take two days to do what two of us could do in about 4 hours. Of course, they also got at least 6 breaks a days where they would lay in the booth like beached whales smoking.

 

Most pathetic display of American work ethic I had ever seen.

On many occasions I've experienced the patheticness of union laborers at convention centers.

 

And in general I oppose unions for reasons I won't rehash.

 

But FBN has a good point, and I don't think it is fair to lump all unions together, including private ones. One, what he does is on the high end of craftsmanship. Two, it seems that instead of being an employee of a company, he is a contractor is is farmed out by the union when work is needed. So there is a risk of job/pay insecurity, like all contractors.

 

In fact, that process seems fairly efficient economically. Companies don't need to hire employees; instead they pay a premium for contractors only when actual work is required.

[rholio 339]

Compare the amount of money unions give to dems vs reps and get back to me.

 

Oh, I understand unions. Not hard to figure out.

Ah, so you don't like unions because they're on the wrong side... got it.

 

Believe it or not, there's a whole world out there that isn't politics.

[the body 0]

Amazing how Laborers get 35 an hour to push a broom or hold a sign.

hire a mexican then..

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

You should stick to defending your slow-witted union brethren and refrain from personal attacks. Ya know, go keep the discussion on the high intellectual level you seem to think it is on

If you think there is not one single benefit to a union then you are about as ignorant as i thought you were. I never see you concede the other side of the argument you are defending has a valid point and there may be a middle ground to the argument.

 

Corporations donate money to the campaigne that has their best interest at stake, why should it be any diffetent for a union? We union members agree to pay the dues asked of us. In turn they use some of that money toward political backing. The members are completely ok with that so why is it a problem? I am sure non union contractors donate money to the party that supports their line of work as well.

 

Non union is where the majority of construction work lies, somewhere around 90%. So at 10% of the available work it doesnt look like the unions are having their way with the political landscape.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

Amazing how Laborers get 35 an hour to push a broom or hold a sign.

 

 

On many occasions I've experienced the patheticness of union laborers at convention centers.

 

And in general I oppose unions for reasons I won't rehash.

 

But FBN has a good point, and I don't think it is fair to lump all unions together, including private ones. One, what he does is on the high end of craftsmanship. Two, it seems that instead of being an employee of a company, he is a contractor is is farmed out by the union when work is needed. So there is a risk of job/pay insecurity, like all contractors.

 

In fact, that process seems fairly efficient economically. Companies don't need to hire employees; instead they pay a premium for contractors only when actual work is required.

Yeah laborers have zero skill and are pretty lazy from what i have seen. Its really annoying when i cant pick up a broom and sweep my own area. "You cant sweep that up! We own the garbage!"

 

You should see the fitters that work downtown on hard money high rise jobs. Its shlt and fvcking get. I have only done industrial work and while sometimes phisically demanding we, cannot work the same pace due to the much higher risk factors.

 

Our training center for 597 is about the best in the country for training apprentices. Even some non union contractors took a look and admitted how advanced it was.

 

We actually offer a ton of classes for the vast array of work we do. Soon when i am off the ridiculous overtime kick i will be taking classes to improve my skill set.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

Corporations donate money to the campaigne that has their best interest at stake, why should it be any diffetent for a union? We union members agree to pay the dues asked of us. In turn they use some of that money toward political backing. The members are completely ok with that so why is it a problem? I am sure non union contractors donate money to the party that supports their line of work as well.

 

Non union is where the majority of construction work lies, somewhere around 90%. So at 10% of the available work it doesnt look like the unions are having their way with the political landscape.

 

 

You are incorrect. You may be ok with your union dues going to libs. Many are not.

 

Unions think they have tge right to forfe people to join and pay dues withno say in how those dues are used. This is ehy when a state goes right to work, union membership tanks.

 

Unions scream like a stuck pig, and the libs they donate to take their marching orders. As proof, just look at the South Carolina Boeing plant debacle.

 

Libs are anti-choice when it comes to union membership. Why is that?

[DankNuggs 305]

 

 

Non union is where the majority of construction work lies, somewhere around 90%. So at 10% of the available work it doesnt look like the unions are having their way with the political landscape.

100% of the work in any major city is union. You know,the high dollar projects.

 

Plenty of union firms do high quality work, but it cost 40% more to build union. When something costs 40% more you buy less of it. In this case is means less viable projects, less jobs, less economic impact.

 

Is less people making more, more important than more people making less?

[MDC 5,895]

 

Is less people making more, more important than more people making less?

 

That's a good question. I think many union workers are overpaid, especially if you're talking about public unions and factoring in pensions.

 

On the other hand I think many private sector workers are underpaid when you consider how salaries have lagged far behind inflation.

 

In general I think one living wage job is worth more than several jobs below living wage. So union construction workers for example might be overpaid but hiring all non-union will also have limited economic impact if you end up with more jobs you can't realistically live on.

 

There's a happy median somewhere but I have no faith in the free market's ability to find it.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

100% of the work in any major city is union. You know,the high dollar projects.

 

Plenty of union firms do high quality work, but it cost 40% more to build union. When something costs 40% more you buy less of it. In this case is means less viable projects, less jobs, less economic impact.

 

Is less people making more, more important than more people making less?

What? Every major city is 100% union? Thats not true. Hey man we can have the wage debate all day if you want. A chinese factory worker makes a wage that couldnt sustain a family in the US, should american workers be paud the same wage? Business would be a lot easier to conduct if everyone in the country was willing to make peanuts.

 

If i worked 40 hours a week and no OT i would make around 90k. That is a solid wage. Youre telling me i shouldnt make that much? Come do my job in a chemical plant where every chemical they use can kill you, some of which take years to manifest. Like i said pipe fitters used to to live until one year after retirement, 63 years old. I have a shortened life span but should make far less than what i do now so the multi million dollar companies can have more millions?

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

You are incorrect. You may be ok with your union dues going to libs. Many are not.

 

Unions think they have tge right to forfe people to join and pay dues withno say in how those dues are used. This is ehy when a state goes right to work, union membership tanks.

 

Unions scream like a stuck pig, and the libs they donate to take their marching orders. As proof, just look at the South Carolina Boeing plant debacle.

 

Libs are anti-choice when it comes to union membership. Why is that?

I still dont get how people are forced to join a union if they want to get into the piping trades. If they want to work non union and make a lot less than we do with very few getting any benefits let them. There are non union piping shops that work at the same places we do. If everyone were forced to join union how do these companies exist?

 

If you want to work somewhere but a requirement is to pay dues and you are adament about not paying, dont join that damn company. Its very simple really. Your argument made no sense the first time you made it, and it still doesnt make sense.

[Reality 2,710]

Ruining threads is what trolls like RP live for

 

 

You are such a hypocritical piece of sh!t, you were the first fvcking idiot in this thread to toss out attacks. Your shtick is beyond played and pathetic at this point.

 

Stay classy guy who's life is an alias.

 

[penultimatestraw 473]

All I know is how much they make in Chicago and journeymen pipefitters make 42 an hour. Maybe it is less else where I don't know I just know how much it is here.

How do you determine how much they should make? You mentioned education earlier - how much should one earn for a high school/college degree/masters/PhD/professional degree? It's all pretty arbitrary IMO.

[penultimatestraw 473]

That's a good question. I think many union workers are overpaid, especially if you're talking about public unions and factoring in pensions.

 

On the other hand I think many private sector workers are underpaid when you consider how salaries have lagged far behind inflation.

 

In general I think one living wage job is worth more than several jobs below living wage. So union construction workers for example might be overpaid but hiring all non-union will also have limited economic impact if you end up with more jobs you can't realistically live on.

 

There's a happy median somewhere but I have no faith in the free market's ability to find it.

I wonder if the CEOs/executives of companies with unions earn less than their non-union counterparts? Less disparity between executives and worker bee salaries is a good thing IMO.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

 

If you want to work somewhere but a requirement is to pay dues and you are adament about not paying, dont join that damn company. Its very simple really.

You are anti-choice. I get it.

 

I think people should not have to join a union to work anywhere. They should have the fhoice to join or not. Letting people choose scares union drones like you.

 

Unions are always trying to get workers to unionize companies. Are you saying once this happens everyone should be forced to join or get fired?

 

You are also still dodging the Boeing/South Carolina/Obama strong arm situation. Shocking you don't want to talk about that.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

I still dont get how people are forced to join a union if they want to get into the piping trades. If they want to work non union and make a lot less than we do with very few getting any benefits let them. There are non union piping shops that work at the same places we do. If everyone were forced to join union how do these companies exist?

 

 

You are anti-choice. I get it.

 

I think people should not have to join a union to work anywhere. They should have the fhoice to join or not. Letting people choose scares union drones like you.

 

Unions are always trying to get workers to unionize companies. Are you saying once this happens everyone should be forced to join or get fired?

 

You are also still dodging the Boeing/South Carolina/Obama strong arm situation. Shocking you don't want to talk about that.

Hmm.. Lets see, i said if they want to join non union to let them. I dont see anything saying they have to join. You really need to pay closer attention if youre going to keep making misleading statements and flat out lying about what i said.

 

I have even said in the past, when discussing this situation with you, that i think its ok to have non union. If either union or non union have 100% of the work it will put the whole balance between contractors and employees out of whack. Having both sides makes it necessary for the other to stay competitive.

 

As for Boeing, i think its a real shame they wanted to force the company to move the plant. They have the right to build where they want. I would prefer them to be a union plant but ultimately its their company. Its a good opportunity to see if a factory type group of unions can show their extra wage and retirement packages are reflected in their work.

 

There is an increasing amount of contractors that are double breasted that have both union and non union sections to their company. We have started to allow them work in our areas because they are at least willing to have a union side that does abides by our contracts.

 

When it comes to "drones" you obviously take the cake here. Lying, misleading, and ignorance are your strong points on this subject. The fact that you still cannot admit there is at least a sliver of benefit to a union continues to show your ignorance.

 

Dealing with non union is easier, thats why so many wish thats all they could deal with. If there were no unions to deal with you do not have strikes or walk outs or pickets or many of the contract sticking points on jobs. Its an organization made to protect the interests of the workers. Sometimes it harbors laziness and complacency, but in my line of work that is rare and even more rare when work is lean.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

I did not make up lies about what yyou said.

 

You said if someone wants to work non union they should go to a non union company. This has nothing to do with the fact people who work in a union shop are forced to join the union. This is what right to work states correct. They give people the choice to join or not.

 

Why are you scared to give people that choice?

 

Seems to me if unions were as good as you say people would be lining up to join. Instead, union memberhip is on the decline.

 

Wonder why that is....

[Phurfur 70]

 

Illinois Union Boss Collects $158,000 Lifetime Government Pension for One Day’s Work

 

By Mike Shedlock On September 23, 2011

 

If you need evidence on how corrupt self-serving unions and union officials can be, then please consider Ex-labor chief’s 1-day rehire nets $158,000 city pension

 

 

A retired Chicago labor leader secured a $158,000 public pension — roughly five times greater than what a typical retired public-service worker in the Windy City receives — after being rehired for just one day of active duty on the city payroll, local news reports said.

 

According to The Chicago Tribune, Dennis Gannon stands to collect approximately $5 million in city pension funds during his lifetime. He now draws the pension while working for a hedge fund, the Tribune reported.

 

Gannon, former president of the Chicago Federation of Labor, was able to take a long leave from a city job to work for a union and then receive a city pension based on a high union salary. That arrangement is allowed under a state law signed by Gov. Jim Thompson on his last day in office in 1991, according to an investigation by the Tribune and WGN-TV.

 

The change has enabled a couple dozen labor leaders to become potential millionaires.

 

What is different in Gannon’s case is that he became eligible for the especially lucrative pension deal only because the city rehired the former Streets and Sanitation Department worker for one day in 1994, before granting him an indefinite leave of absence, according to the investigation. He retired from the city job in 2004 at age 50.

 

Gannon’s pension is so high that it exceeds federal limits and required Chicago’s pension fund to file special paperwork with the Internal Revenue Service to give it to him, the Tribune reported.

 

“I am extremely proud of my many years of service to the city of Chicago and the working men and women of organized labor,” Gannon wrote in a statement provided to the Tribune.

http://unionwatch.org/illinois-union-boss-collects-158000-lifetime-government-pension-for-one-days-work/

[The Moz 69]

I did not make up lies about what yyou said.

 

You said if someone wants to work non union they should go to a non union company. This has nothing to do with the fact people who work in a union shop are forced to join the union. This is what right to work states correct. They give people the choice to join or not.

 

Why are you scared to give people that choice?

 

Seems to me if unions were as good as you say people would be lining up to join. Instead, union memberhip is on the decline.

 

Wonder why that is....

 

Unions take most of the big Jobs here in Chicago it is a fact. Its a choice for the Union really and they go after pretty much just the major work here -- hence why all of the major Trade shops are union as the major trade shops get the big jobs. Starting to follow yet?

 

I can say people are lining up to join in droves actually -- My Father is helping one of my cousins get into the IBEW here and they just opened there doors after years of not even taking apprentices on. Basically If you do not know someone your chances of getting in the union are cut in 1/2. Membership being on the decline is why they are starting to open their doors again -- as people are - retiring!

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

I did not make up lies about what yyou said.

 

You said if someone wants to work non union they should go to a non union company. This has nothing to do with the fact people who work in a union shop are forced to join the union. This is what right to work states correct. They give people the choice to join or not.

 

Why are you scared to give people that choice?

 

Seems to me if unions were as good as you say people would be lining up to join. Instead, union memberhip is on the decline.

 

Wonder why that is....

Your argument is the equivalent of a company requiring you to wear a certain uniform while at work. Its their company and their rules that state you have to wear a uniform. Not all companies in that field require it but this one does. Its very upsetting to some people because they have to pay out of their own pocket for this uniform as they really really dont want to pay for it.

 

The company who requires you to pay for your uniform pays a lot more than the other company that requires no such uniform, and they also pay out health benefits and have a retirement. The one catch being you have to pay for this uniforom to join.

 

The choice is there, pay for said uniform and enjoy a more lucrative job, or join the other non uniform requiring establishment if you are really that opposed to it.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

I did not make up lies about what yyou said.

 

You said if someone wants to work non union they should go to a non union company. This has nothing to do with the fact people who work in a union shop are forced to join the union. This is what right to work states correct. They give people the choice to join or not.

 

Why are you scared to give people that choice?

 

Seems to me if unions were as good as you say people would be lining up to join. Instead, union memberhip is on the decline.

 

Wonder why that is....

The biggest problem with the RTW bill is the option for all who are in unuons to pay dues. Reason being, according to this bill if you do not pay the dues asked of you YOU STILL GET ALL BENEFITS GIVEN BY YOUR UNION.

 

Tell me how the fock that makes any sense? If the bill stated you could skip dues but the union also has the right to deny your benefits it would be a little more understandable.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

The biggest problem with the RTW bill is the option for all who are in unuons to pay dues. Reason being, according to this bill if you do not pay the dues asked of you YOU STILL GET ALL BENEFITS GIVEN BY YOUR UNION.

 

Tell me how the fock that makes any sense? If the bill stated you could skip dues but the union also has the right to deny your benefits it would be a little more understandable.

If you choose to not pay dues you are not a member of a union, so there is no "your union".

 

I happen to support the freedom to choose when it comes to union membership. You support forcing people into uniions against their wishes.

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

In big cities many tradesmen who go through the 5 year apprenticeship and become Journey men make well over 6 figures if you factor in overtime. Hell a laborer who is 2 years in makes more money then a person out of college with a Masters degree. In Chicago in the Trades I would say a Journeyman makes about 45 an hour base pay not counting overtime as the median for the different trades - I know Elevator workers and Operators make 50-52 an hour Iron workers close to if not 60 an hour.

 

Do you think the pay scale for the union trades is just and the work done merits the pay they receive as compared to other jobs? Maybe I am bias as a Project manager in Construction and I make decent money but I know I have journeymen with nothing but a HS education younger than I am making as much or more than I am when I am sitting here with a B.S. and a Masters degree as well as many years experience. Just frustrates me a little but I see they work hard and know that after a Job is over they got to worry about getting picked up (if they are good they never get let go unless the company folds).

 

what say you all -- Is the pay scale of the Trades a result of the Unions and their political affiliation and the fact no one really wants to go up against them or do they really deserve the money they make?

What company do you work for?

 

I am always curious of this one, and you may not see it as much down town, do you think the danger pipefitters are put in merit the pay they receive? Down town you have your typical falling objects and high rise risk factors, but in chemical plants and refineries we are basically working inside of a very volitile bomb. Besides the explosive nature of these environments we also have to worry about what these chemicals can do to our health and bodies.

 

We both agree laborers are over paid, what is your take on the factors that go into our earnings?

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

If you choose to not pay dues you are not a member of a union, so there is no "your union".

 

I happen to support the freedom to choose when it comes to union membership. You support forcing people into uniions against their wishes.

Ok.