Spy agency heads: Dem "report" "biased, inaccurate, and destructive".

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Since I can't get anyone to object to torture in the absolute sense, should I infer that one option is to improve our torture techniques to get more useful info?

You're coming up with absurd hypotheticals that have no precedent in history so far as I know. There's no need to even respond to that

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Step up to the plate, Frankie.

 

Either you would let millions of Americans die or not.

 

One terrorist suffering EITs, or millions of dead Americans.......what side do you fall on?

Don't be such a focking pvssy as to not use the actual term of what you're defending. You are in favor of TORTURE. Focking admit to it instead of making up synonyms

[Voltaire 5,491]

Since I can't get anyone to object to torture in the absolute sense, should I infer that one option is to improve our torture techniques to get more useful info?

I just woke up and have been catching up to the three threads RP started.

 

I think a problem I'm having is your slippery slope argument is it's irrelevance. They weren't in the US, there was no imminent danger to the US and they still as of now have no access to nuclear bombs.

 

So in 0 of 119 instances this was the situation. And further you don't know going in if you'll extract real intel or junk anyways. We invaded Iraq in part because Team Bush are retards and in part because tortured assmegs made up crap to give interrogators the information that would get them to stop torturing them.

 

You do realize the FBI has experience extracting information from uncooperative criminals using legal means. The CIA was ill equipped to handle it.

 

Getting back to your slippery slope, how about the detainees that were on the near end of the slope, not the far? Unlike your scenario, these actually existed. Cooperative detainees were still tortured. One guy (at least) was held for 40+ days without being questioned. Now, like most everybody here, I don't really give a sh*t about what happened to these animals. I just see the bigger picture where our POWs getting retaliated against with treatment ten times worse. About giving China the ability to laugh in our face if we ever want to bring up their re-education/slave labor camps for political prisoners. About not giving the animals on the outside any extra reasons to want to blow us up or the overall Muslim public to take sympathy with their cause. The father of the underwear bomber warned the CIA about his son (for what good that did). If some friend or family member of an Islamic terrorist wants to defuse a plot, would they hesitate to turn in their loved one knowing he'll spend the rest of his life playing nekked twister?

 

Anyways, I've avoided your slippery slope long enough. In your Hollywood scenario. IIRC the way you set it up: if you know for sure there's a 12 hour nuclear bomb, if you know for sure these guys know where it is and if you know for sure that torturing them would extract that information... yes you torture.

 

Then there's an investigation, you do your doey-eyed "When American lives were in danger..." speech, you win the support of the public, and if necessary a jury, and maybe win a presidential pardon. Deal with the ramifications from there. Now if you want to bite off a little bit more and a little bit of the hypothetical situation and see where the bottom falls out, I'm not playing that game.

[MDC 7,889]

Voltaire gets it.

[Voltaire 5,491]

You're coming up with absurd hypotheticals that have no precedent in history so far as I know. There's no need to even respond to that

I did anyways. Of course he doesn't read anything but sound bits or anything longer than two sentences ...

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Amen Volty

[Sho Nuff 720]

I guess if somebody keeps repeating something they eventually believe it to be true. To definitively say torture didn't work is extremely disingenuous. Regardless How I feel about torture, saving thousands of lives is a reason to exhaust multiple options for gathering information.

 

6 Former CIA directors strongly disagree with the report.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cia-directors-interrogation-program-saved-thousands-lives/story?id=27470215

Wow, 6 people who have used torture defend its use.

 

About as surprising as yet another righty being ok with it.

[HenryHill9323 65]

Don't be such a focking pvssy as to not use the actual term of what you're defending. You are in favor of TORTURE. Focking admit to it instead of making up synonyms

I had no idea I coined EITs.

[Frank M 181]

Step up to the plate, Frankie.

 

Either you would let millions of Americans die or not.

 

One terrorist suffering EITs, or millions of dead Americans.......what side do you fall on?

John McCain and I fall on the side of Americans being better than our enemies. You fall on the side of the sheep that the government is interested in keeping afraid by feeding them ridiculous scenarios so they can continue to act with impunity.

 

Good on you, I guess.

[HenryHill9323 65]

A few million dead Americans is a small price to pay so guys like Worms and Frank M can keep their faux dignity.

Nailed it!

 

[jerryskids 7,085]

I did anyways. Of course he doesn't read anything but sound bits or anything longer than two sentences ...

Wow, really Volty? That's what you think of me? I never pretended to be discussing the actual specifics of this case; I haven't had the time to even dig into the sound bits. I thought I was entirely clear in my response to Herbivore that I was presenting a hypothetical to explore peoples' objections to torture. As such the rest of your diatribe, while interesting, isn't relevant to the question I was trying to explore.

 

That being said, I appreciate your honest response that you would support torture in my hypothetical; nobody on the left here will even respond.

[Frank M 181]

Wow, really Volty? That's what you think of me? I never pretended to be discussing the actual specifics of this case; I haven't had the time to even dig into the sound bits. I thought I was entirely clear in my response to Herbivore that I was presenting a hypothetical to explore peoples' objections to torture. As such the rest of your diatribe, while interesting, isn't relevant to the question I was trying to explore.

 

That being said, I appreciate your honest response that you would support torture in my hypothetical; nobody on the left here will even respond.

Maybe come up with a less ridiculous hypothetical situation.

[Voltaire 5,491]

Wow, really Volty? That's what you think of me? I never pretended to be discussing the actual specifics of this case; I haven't had the time to even dig into the sound bits. I thought I was entirely clear in my response to Herbivore that I was presenting a hypothetical to explore peoples' objections to torture. As such the rest of your diatribe, while interesting, isn't relevant to the question I was trying to explore.

 

That being said, I appreciate your honest response that you would support torture in my hypothetical; nobody on the left here will even respond.

sorry jerry. I'd spent the night before re-typing the same things in a circle jumping through RP's loops.

 

My first reaction was that you'd made a mistake, and that worms' reply was to a RP quote.But no, now I see that I'd made a mistake and the worms quote was directed at you and I'd insulted you. Maybe I was trying to do too much catching up at once. You were boh arguing the same thing at that point.

[jerryskids 7,085]

Maybe come up with a less ridiculous hypothetical situation.

Thanks, but I'd rather not. TorridJoe (had he objected, I don't know his position on this topic) would have said that he would object to torture in my scenario. Much like he supported abortion even as the baby's head was popping out, because he felt that it was the woman's choice until birth. I actually appreciated that strength of conviction, even if I disagreed with his position.

[BunnysBastatrds 2,602]

 

Yet...techniques you think will make him tell you what you need to know...have shown that he will just tell you what he thinks you want to know (without really giving you anything) so that you will stop.

 

Your actions don't lead to good intel...it has been shown over and over and over that it is one of the least effective ways to gain intel.

Again...you all like to laud guys like McCain...until the point his voice and personal experience tell you that your techniques don't work. Then you forget about him again or ignore what he has said on the topic.

Do you think we use torture for any reason other than gaining intelligence to help save lives?

[Voltaire 5,491]

Do you think we use torture for any reason other than gaining intelligence to help save lives?

Maybe because we think they're scumbag animals who deserve it anyways after what they've done. Pure speculation here, but that's at least a good justification for it.

[BunnysBastatrds 2,602]

Maybe because we think they're scumbag animals who deserve it anyways after what they've done. Pure speculation here, but that's at least a good justification for it.

Would you rather be killed in action or water boarded?

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Would you rather be killed in action or water boarded?

 

You're no better than RP. Sad.

[Magnificent Bastard 192]

I really don't care about the torture, unless you make me. Those dopes in the Bush administration, especially Cheney, were damn near bragging about it, trying to act tough. They should have STFU. But now that it's out there, it has to be condemned, because we are supposed to be the good guys.

[Voltaire 5,491]

Would you rather be killed in action or water boarded?

I'd rather be waterboarded.

 

But I'd have to seriously consider changing my mind and choosing dying in action for Islam if I were being offered 72 virgins in the afterlife. If I had that waiting for me, I'd rather expedite the process.

[Sho Nuff 720]

Do you think we use torture for any reason other than gaining intelligence to help save lives?

 

Im sure we do or did. Plenty of sick focks that enjoy doing that sort of thing.

Do you think its right to use torture for any other reason?

Or are you just going to play the circular games we are used to from a different hack?

[BunnysBastatrds 2,602]

 

You're no better than RP. Sad.

Sad? Because I believe techniques that help save lives are proven to work? I'm claustrophobic. If you put me in a box and made me believe I was going to be buried alive I would tell you what you need to know. It's human nature to find ones weakness and exploit it.

 

I've got a suggestion for terrorist not wanting to get water boarded or made to listen to bad 80's music: Don't become a terrorist! You want to fight us and kill my fellow Americans with beheadings or road side bombs while not wearing a uniform and obeying laws set by the Geneva convention, don't become a terrorist.

 

It's people like you that give them the power to do what they do. Not the other way around like you believe. Your ilk appease these barbaric ideas and promote them. That's what's sad.

 

And what's sadder is the fact that only a hundred or so of these Fawkers that you weep for were interrogated using these techniques that you deplore while they and their kind killed thousands of soldiers and many more innocent civilians that these motherfawkers hid behind in the name of religion and holy war.

 

You are such a hypocritical SOB. And those like you who sit on their high horse trying to judge those who had one job: protect and uphold the constitution in which live by.

 

I guarantee that if your wife and child were in any kind of danger you'd do everything you could within reason to ensure their safety. Given the choice of their life or deaths.

 

If you say you wouldn't, I feel sorry for your wife and child. I feel sorry for you. And I feel sorry for all of those who are as ignorant and biased as you.

 

War isn't pretty. It never has been.

[Sho Nuff 720]

 

You are such a hypocritical SOB. And those like you who sit on their high horse trying to judge those who had one job: protect and uphold the constitution in which live by.

 

And I feel sorry for all of those who are as ignorant and biased as you.

 

 

 

I could pull out more from that hate filled rant...but these were funny.

 

BTW...I don't think most are judging any of the soldiers who followed orders. But what they were doing had nothing to do with upholding the constitution when performing tactics that are against what we stand for as a nation and against the geneva conventions.

 

And that you call other people ignorant and biased when you claim that these tactics just work and given how biased you are on any political topic is just downright funny.

 

But don't feel sorry for me for staying educated and believing that we are and should be better than the animals of the world.

[Sho Nuff 720]

Also interesting how this does end up falling almost down political lines. And the right...the side that tries to uphold itself as morally superior and Christian is the side promoting tactics that are so far against what Christ taught...its mindblowing.

[jerryskids 7,085]

Also interesting how this does end up falling almost down political lines. And the right...the side that tries to uphold itself as morally superior and Christian is the side promoting tactics that are so far against what Christ taught...its mindblowing.

Jesus went ballistic on the tax collectors. Nevertheless, to attempt to equate the philosophy of the right to Christianity is weak sauce.

 

I've said my position on this topic so you can place me in whatever category you want. In that simplistic vein, I will say that liberals in general tend to be idealistic whereas conservatives tend to be pragmatic. I align with the latter. I hate the idea of torture and find it in general extremely "un-American," but I recognize that we are in a different time and fighting a different kind of enemy than in the time of the Geneva Convention, let alone the time when it was accepted military protocol to stand in a line in bright red uniforms and face your enemy, and the colonists hid behind trees and practiced guerilla warfare.

[Frank M 181]

 

I could pull out more from that hate filled rant...but these were funny.

 

BTW...I don't think most are judging any of the soldiers who followed orders. But what they were doing had nothing to do with upholding the constitution when performing tactics that are against what we stand for as a nation and against the geneva conventions.

 

And that you call other people ignorant and biased when you claim that these tactics just work and given how biased you are on any political topic is just downright funny.

 

But don't feel sorry for me for staying educated and believing that we are and should be better than the animals of the world.

 

This is funny, too:

 

It's people like you that give them the power to do what they do. Not the other way around like you believe. Your ilk appease these barbaric ideas and promote them. That's what's sad.

 

As if anyone who opposes the idea of torture is promoting the idea of terrorism.

 

Where the fock do you dumbassess come up with this ridiculous BS?

 

Here's just a few of them from this thread (paraphrased):

 

Would you torture someone if they knew where a nuclear bomb was going off in an American city?

 

Being against torture means you'd be willing to sacrifice MILLIONS of lives.

 

Being against torture means you support radical Islam.

 

Torture is needed to protect the Constitution.

 

Taking out terrorists with drones is the same as torturing people in custody.

 

Being against torture means you promote terrorism.

 

You'd be in favor of torture if it was your wife or kid's life on the line.

 

 

Seriously, the softheads are out in force in this thread.

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Sad? Because I believe techniques that help save lives are proven to work? I'm claustrophobic. If you put me in a box and made me believe I was going to be buried alive I would tell you what you need to know. It's human nature to find ones weakness and exploit it.

 

I've got a suggestion for terrorist not wanting to get water boarded or made to listen to bad 80's music: Don't become a terrorist! You want to fight us and kill my fellow Americans with beheadings or road side bombs while not wearing a uniform and obeying laws set by the Geneva convention, don't become a terrorist.

 

It's people like you that give them the power to do what they do. Not the other way around like you believe. Your ilk appease these barbaric ideas and promote them. That's what's sad.

 

And what's sadder is the fact that only a hundred or so of these Fawkers that you weep for were interrogated using these techniques that you deplore while they and their kind killed thousands of soldiers and many more innocent civilians that these motherfawkers hid behind in the name of religion and holy war.

 

You are such a hypocritical SOB. And those like you who sit on their high horse trying to judge those who had one job: protect and uphold the constitution in which live by.

 

I guarantee that if your wife and child were in any kind of danger you'd do everything you could within reason to ensure their safety. Given the choice of their life or deaths.

 

If you say you wouldn't, I feel sorry for your wife and child. I feel sorry for you. And I feel sorry for all of those who are as ignorant and biased as you.

 

War isn't pretty. It never has been.

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Jesus went ballistic on the tax collectors. Nevertheless, to attempt to equate the philosophy of the right to Christianity is weak sauce.

 

I've said my position on this topic so you can place me in whatever category you want. In that simplistic vein, I will say that liberals in general tend to be idealistic whereas conservatives tend to be pragmatic. I align with the latter. I hate the idea of torture and find it in general extremely "un-American," but I recognize that we are in a different time and fighting a different kind of enemy than in the time of the Geneva Convention, let alone the time when it was accepted military protocol to stand in a line in bright red uniforms and face your enemy, and the colonists hid behind trees and practiced guerilla warfare.

You know the Geneva Convention arose out of the Second World War, right? When Europe and Russia had been threatened with extinction at the hands of the nazis? After tens of millions of people died and entire cities were leveled?

 

If they could come out of that thinking "no matter how bad it gets, we can't condone torture"... then where in the fockity fock do we get off tossing that aside because we're afraid of the extremely remote chance (individually speaking) of being hurt or killed in a terrorist attack?

 

Jesus Christ: grow a focking pair. You guys like to act like you're all tough because you can stomach torture, but truth is your focking scared little b1tches who will toss any and every principle out the window at the first sign of trouble.

 

It's focking pathetic. You people honestly make me a little ashamed to be an American. We did not use to be a nation of cowards

[Voltaire 5,491]

Sad? Because I believe techniques that help save lives are proven to work? I'm claustrophobic. If you put me in a box and made me believe I was going to be buried alive I would tell you what you need to know. It's human nature to find ones weakness and exploit it.

 

I've got a suggestion for terrorist not wanting to get water boarded or made to listen to bad 80's music: Don't become a terrorist! You want to fight us and kill my fellow Americans with beheadings or road side bombs while not wearing a uniform and obeying laws set by the Geneva convention, don't become a terrorist.

 

It's people like you that give them the power to do what they do. Not the other way around like you believe. Your ilk appease these barbaric ideas and promote them. That's what's sad.

 

And what's sadder is the fact that only a hundred or so of these Fawkers that you weep for were interrogated using these techniques that you deplore while they and their kind killed thousands of soldiers and many more innocent civilians that these motherfawkers hid behind in the name of religion and holy war.

 

You are such a hypocritical SOB. And those like you who sit on their high horse trying to judge those who had one job: protect and uphold the constitution in which live by.

 

I guarantee that if your wife and child were in any kind of danger you'd do everything you could within reason to ensure their safety. Given the choice of their life or deaths.

 

If you say you wouldn't, I feel sorry for your wife and child. I feel sorry for you. And I feel sorry for all of those who are as ignorant and biased as you.

 

War isn't pretty. It never has been.

A few things: if they shoved you in a box you might tell them what they wanted to know, but then you might pull something out of your ass to get them to stop too. And if you didn't know squat, then you'd surely have to infer answers they're looking for from the questions and try to make up some credible sounding BS to get them to stop.

 

I really like Enter Sandman and I don't see why we're criticizing the 80s music when everybody knows it's '90s music that truly sucks.

 

The US Constitution specifically forbids, rather than endorses, cruel and unusual punishment. (8th amendment)

 

And again, the focus is too narrow since it's not really about these a$$holes specifically. Doing this to their captives puts anybody that falls into their hands at risk for retaliation. It generates more outrage among the rest and promotes sympathy for their cause with the greater Muslim population. If the US brings up concerns for human rights violations of dissidents in Crimea, Russia throws nekked twister back in our face. Do you think this guy's father would warn the CIA of his son's radicalism if he thinks his son will have to play nekked twister?https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&ved=0CGIQFjAK&url=http%3A%2F%2Fabcnews.go.com%2Fblogs%2Fpolitics%2F2009%2F12%2Fhoekstra-on-underwear-bomber-we-missed-him-at-every-step%2F&ei=GjKJVOKsPNCuoQT3_YHgCw&usg=AFQjCNFbbHyka3c1YqobFOdPLklixxHG0g&bvm=bv.81456516,bs.1,d.cWc&cad=rjt

 

Everybody just caught up in looking at these individual turds. Since they're dangerous and violent and hardly more than animals, nobody gives a sh*t. I don't even give sh*t. It's not just about them. Torturing them provides a cascade of bad things to happen. And, apparently, the information acquired is of dubious quality. There's no shortage of tactics that work to extract information from uncooperative suspects, police and the FBI use them all the time, maybe at least try that first?

[OldMaid 2,135]

I think we should torture some of the people in this thread.

 

What do I win?

[Voltaire 5,491]

I think we should torture some of the people in this thread.

 

What do I win?

I hadn't realized you were into that sort of thing.

[BunnysBastatrds 2,602]

So it's ok to bomb and kill innocent civilians in the name of war but we can't get information by means necessary of those who declare war on us? Sleep depravation compared to beheadings is comparable?

 

Feinstein approved war after 9/11. She approves drone strikes that kill many innocent people. The fact that you understand that....the fact that she understands that.....makes every single one of you a Fawking hypocrite. Were at war. Water board me every day. If I can live, it's better than the alternative.

[BunnysBastatrds 2,602]

Does the 8th Amendment include cruel and unusual punishment by foreign fighters not Americans?

 

You despise religion but give these fawk heads a break who do what they do because of religion. Why?

[Voltaire 5,491]

So it's ok to bomb and kill innocent civilians in the name of war but we can't get information by means necessary of those who declare war on us? Sleep depravation compared to beheadings is comparable?

 

Feinstein approved war after 9/11. She approves drone strikes that kill many innocent people. The fact that you understand that....the fact that she understands that.....makes every single one of you a Fawking hypocrite. Were at war. Water board me every day. If I can live, it's better than the alternative.

After WWII when all the world leaders who had just gotten done carpet bombing civilian cities in air raids (or even nuked them) sat down and had a chat. One thing they decided to do was end abuse of POWs. The biggest selling point for everybody to get behind signing such an accord is that they really didn't much care for having their own people going through that abuse at the hands of the enemy.

 

Information extracted from Nazi or Japanese officers during WWII would have been just as timely and precious as info extracted from an Islamic nutbag in 2006. Bu they didn't want to go there anymore. Huh... wonder why...

 

They also didn't much care for having their own civilians air-raided even though just a few weeks earlier happily went about doing it to the other side. So this too has been frowned upon ever since.

 

The US is permanently ashamed of having imprisoned Japanese nationals in internment camps even though what they went through pales in comparison to what the Germans and Japanese were doing to other nationalities by a factor of a trillion to one. So the effort here is we'd like to put nekked twister into the dustbin of history next to the Japanese detention camps, not to be revisited again.

 

There's a difference between killing someone and disrepecting/humiliating them. Like most people, I'd rather get beat up than get pinned down and ass raped even though one may takes weeks to recover while the other takes a few minutes or hours. It hurts much, much worse but my dignity remains intact when I'm beat up. Soldiers get blown up all the time but beheading videos are so much worse on the psyche.

 

Anyways, I approve drone strikes too BTW. And the war in Afghanistan at first, but never these Iraqi one. Just not nekked twister. I'll take your word for it on Feinstein's position, I don't know offhand. Also, you may not know this, until this point, Feinstein has always been a huge ally and supporter of the CIA in Congress. I got really fed up with her on the Eric Snowden flap and NSA spying. This is a big (and refreshing) change for her.

 

Regarding Islamic sh*tbags, you don't shame them when you blow them up with a drone strike, and for the most part the ones that are left accept the price of war and know their colleagues got what they had coming. It's better to kill them than shame them.

[Voltaire 5,491]

BunnysBastatrds, on 11 Dec 2014 - 3:56 PM, said:

 

Does the 8th Amendment include cruel and unusual punishment by foreign fighters not Americans?

 

You despise religion but give these fawk heads a break who do what they do because of religion. Why?

1) I'm not sure, but that would be surely be covered by the Geneva conventions.

 

2) I hate to parse words. I'm wouldn't say I 'despise' religion but since the religion I have the most intense dislike towards is Islam and since my dislike of most religions is readily apparent, I won't argue the point. But a large part of the reason I strongly dislike Islam is precisely because of what they do. I've never cut them a break. Since none other of the world's major religions does what Islam does, Islam is by far the worst and scariest. Most other religions are just stupid. Actually, Buddhism seems cool, I like what I hear, but I'm not terribly interested or enthused in checking it out more to actually participate in it. I don't want to waste my free time going to any meetings or ceremonies nor do I want to give them any money. That's why atheism suits me so well, I'd rather take a nap or post at FFToday than go do religion stuff and even better, it doesn't cost me any money.

[drobeski 3,061]

Whole lot of fabricated outrage in this thread.

[rholio 339]

China tells US to 'correct its ways' after torture report

http://news.yahoo.com/china-tells-us-correct-ways-torture-report-162311320.html

[HenryHill9323 65]

You people honestly make me a little ashamed to be an American.

 

 

The rest of America isn't real happy about it either.

[Sho Nuff 720]

Jesus went ballistic on the tax collectors. Nevertheless, to attempt to equate the philosophy of the right to Christianity is weak sauce.

 

I've said my position on this topic so you can place me in whatever category you want. In that simplistic vein, I will say that liberals in general tend to be idealistic whereas conservatives tend to be pragmatic. I align with the latter. I hate the idea of torture and find it in general extremely "un-American," but I recognize that we are in a different time and fighting a different kind of enemy than in the time of the Geneva Convention, let alone the time when it was accepted military protocol to stand in a line in bright red uniforms and face your enemy, and the colonists hid behind trees and practiced guerilla warfare.

 

I don't think it is weak sauce given how much the religious right has taken over the party and how many many conservatives align themselves with their faith when its convenient. But now, seem to want to do something that is completely against that faith.

[HenryHill9323 65]

. And, apparently, the information acquired is of dubious quality.

 

 

This is clearly false information put out by DiFi. It is discredited on numerous accounts here:

 

 

http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/study2014/sscistudy3.pdf