Judge vs Ohtani...MVP discussion

[WhiteWonder 2,179]

47 minutes ago, vuduchile said:

Shohei Ohtani currently leads the Angels in:

Home Runs: 32

RBI: 85

Hits: 130

Runs: 78

Wins: 11

Strikeouts: 181

ERA: 2.58

I currently lead my local softball team in most Of those categories as well

[vuduchile 1,941]

1 minute ago, WhiteWonder said:

Doesn’t matter who the problem is. People generally don’t like MVP going to a basement dwelling team or one not in the playoff hunt. It’s the old best versus most valuable argument. 

Trout won it 3 times on the same crappy Angels team and  has only  been to the playoffs once 

Ohtani also won it last year when the Angels missed the playoffs. 

[WhiteWonder 2,179]

Just now, vuduchile said:

Trout won it 3 times on the same crappy Angels team and  has only  been to the playoffs once 

Ohtani also won it last year when the Angels missed the playoffs. 

Oh I know. When I say people I’m talking about fans who debate. Best player versus most valuable isn’t a new argument. 
 

the ohtani spectacle was even worse last year. 

[vuduchile 1,941]

3 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

I currently lead my local softball team in most Of those categories as well

Your beer league keeps stats?

[WhiteWonder 2,179]

5 minutes ago, vuduchile said:

Your beer league keeps stats?

It was sarcasm but without actually keeping the stats I am sure I led my team in the hitting categories 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,695]

1 hour ago, vuduchile said:

Homer

He’s not? 

[edjr 5,585]

2 hours ago, vuduchile said:

Shohei Ohtani currently leads the Angels in:

Home Runs: 32

RBI: 85

Hits: 130

Runs: 78

Wins: 11

Strikeouts: 181

ERA: 2.58

Judge currently has 147 Strikeouts. HAH! take that

[WhiteWonder 2,179]

Ohtani is neither the best hitter or best pitcher in the AL. He's the ONLY pitcher and hitter. He does both very well but multiple players in the AL do what he does better on both sides of the ball. So if the argument is going to be that his special skillset of doing both thins as well as he does is something we've never seen.... then you might as well just automatically give him the AL MVP for the next 4-5 years (assuming he stays in the AL and continues doing both). It's dumb.

I am much more impressed by a supposedly clean Judge being at 55 home runs with 25ish games to play. He leads the league in runs (by almost 30), home runs (by  23), and RBI (by 10). He leads in walks, OBP, Slugging and OPS.... and he is top 10 in average. And hes just outside the top 10 in steals as well. 

 

and I hate the Yankees 

[Hawkeye21 1,858]

I think it should be Ohtani.  He's doing things that have never been done in the history of the sport.

[TBayXXXVII 2,128]

11 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I think it should be Ohtani.  He's doing things that have never been done in the history of the sport.

Now THAT's an argument I'll never get behind.  With that criteria, he'd win the MVP every year, as long as he showed up.

[Hawkeye21 1,858]

Just now, TBayXXXVII said:

Now THAT's an argument I'll never get behind.  With that criteria, he'd win the MVP every year, as long as he showed up.

Over 30 HRs and 10 Wins pitching is amazing.  He may be the most gifted player in baseball.  Judge is also having an amazing season though.  I think he has like a 8.4 WAR.

[TBayXXXVII 2,128]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Over 30 HRs and 10 Wins pitching is amazing.  He may be the most gifted player in baseball.  Judge is also having an amazing season though.  I think he has like a 8.4 WAR.

If he had 15 HR's and 5 wins, no other player did that, and hence would be amazing.  Where's the line and why is it there?

[Hawkeye21 1,858]

5 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

If he had 15 HR's and 5 wins, no other player did that, and hence would be amazing.  Where's the line and why is it there?

Babe Ruth did it.

[JustinCharge 2,397]

1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said:

 With that criteria, he'd win the MVP every year, as long as he showed up.

i think a lot of people would be OK with that.  i mean well probably never see someone like ohtani again.

[WhiteWonder 2,179]

he won it last year because of this same reason... so I agree with TBay, and said as much in a previous post that if this is how we define most valuable player then he should just get it each season he remains a 2 way player....

either that or he will start to be measured only against himself and for example next year if he hits 20 homers but pitches to 8 wins and a 4.5 ERA, he will get dismissed more because he didn't live up to 2022 Ohtani. 

[JustinCharge 2,397]

1 hour ago, WhiteWonder said:

he won it last year because of this same reason... so I agree with TBay, and said as much in a previous post that if this is how we define most valuable player then he should just get it each season he remains a 2 way player....

hes not just a 2 way player.  hes very effective at both positions.  hits for power.  throws 100 mph.  he has 32 homers, leads baseball in ks per 9, 2.58 ERA.  1.04 WHiP.  you make it sound like hes playing both ways but just OK.  hes amazing.  its not judges fault that judge is not the best player in baseball.

[WhiteWonder 2,179]

1 hour ago, JustinCharge said:

hes not just a 2 way player.  hes very effective at both positions.  hits for power.  throws 100 mph.  he has 32 homers, leads baseball in ks per 9, 2.58 ERA.  1.04 WHiP.  you make it sound like hes playing both ways but just OK.  hes amazing.  its not judges fault that judge is not the best player in baseball.

never said he was just okay. I said in previous posts though that there are better hitters and better pitchers in the AL. So if we are simply going to go by the fact he is doing both then just name the award after him and lock him in until he stops doing both .  It's also already been discussed that we don't and wont know if his k/9 or era or other non counting stats would hold up if he was pitching the kind of innings other aces are. 

[JustinCharge 2,397]

10 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

never said he was just okay. I said in previous posts though that there are better hitters and better pitchers in the AL. So if we are simply going to go by the fact he is doing both then just name the award after him and lock him in until he stops doing both .  It's also already been discussed that we don't and wont know if his k/9 or era or other non counting stats would hold up if he was pitching the kind of innings other aces are. 

well there better but not many hitting more than 32 homers.  not many starters with a low whip.  does he have to lead the league in both?  nope.

[JustinCharge 2,397]

would you trade ohtani straight up for judge?

[WhiteWonder 2,179]

27 minutes ago, JustinCharge said:

would you trade ohtani straight up for judge?

no. Im not a Judge fan, im just evaluating this year. Judge historically has not stayed healthy and he is betting on himself this season.   but my answer has little to do with Ohtani playing both ways.

[vuduchile 1,941]

22 hours ago, WhiteWonder said:

It was sarcasm but without actually keeping the stats I am sure I led my team in the hitting categories 

I understand.  But it's not unusual for a beer league team's best pitcher to also be their best hitter.  Same with little league and/or youth travel ball teams.  

That's not the case in MLB. 

Literally, nobody in history has performed at such a high level as a two way player.  Until someone equals or surpasses him as a two way player, he's the best all around player in the game, and also the AL MVP.

 

 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,695]

17 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I think it should be Ohtani.  He's doing things that have never been done in the history of the sport.

Like what? 

[Hawkeye21 1,858]

2 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Like what? 

Go up and look at my posts.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,695]

I think Ohtani could do Ruthian things if he did a Ruthian thing. Like stop pitching. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,604]

11 hours ago, WhiteWonder said:

no. Im not a Judge fan, im just evaluating this year. Judge historically has not stayed healthy and he is betting on himself this season.   but my answer has little to do with Ohtani playing both ways.

that brings up an interesting thing, Judge never stays healthy except in his contract year, whoever signs him is going to regret it by year 2

[WhiteWonder 2,179]

1 hour ago, vuduchile said:

I understand.  But it's not unusual for a beer league team's best pitcher to also be their best hitter.  Same with little league and/or youth travel ball teams.  

That's not the case in MLB. 

Literally, nobody in history has performed at such a high level as a two way player.  Until someone equals or surpasses him as a two way player, he's the best all around player in the game, and also the AL MVP.

 

 

So you are also in the camp to just give him the MVP as Long as he’s playing both ways and no one else is? And what happens if next year he has a terrible season on the mound and is average at the plate but no one else is equal to him in terms of doing both. He still should get it just because… both?

[Hawkeye21 1,858]

8 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

So you are also in the camp to just give him the MVP as Long as he’s playing both ways and no one else is? And what happens if next year he has a terrible season on the mound and is average at the plate but no one else is equal to him in terms of doing both. He still should get it just because… both?

I don't think anyone is saying he should win strictly because he plays both.  He should be considered to win because he's doing both well all year.

[WhiteWonder 2,179]

1 hour ago, vuduchile said:

 Until someone equals or surpasses him as a two way player, he's the best all around player in the game, and also the AL MVP.

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I don't think anyone is saying he should win strictly because he plays both.  He should be considered to win because he's doing both well all year.

seemed like that was being said above  It’s a fair conclusion for me to come to at least. It’s not like ohtani is opening the floodgates for 2 way players because most teams don’t want guys doing both. 
 

Im not at all saying that what he does isn’t special. But he won the award last season because of it. At some point the “he’s pitching AND hitting!” Spectacle wears off and we need to look at stuff like his team not being in playoff contention, the other guy going for a clean homerun record and leading the AL in most hitting categories

[Hawkeye21 1,858]

2 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

But he won the award last season because of it.

His stats were great last year though.  You don't think he deserved it?

[Hardcore troubadour 12,695]

Ohtani doesn’t play the field. Are we not allowed to factor that in? 

[Hawkeye21 1,858]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

Ohtani doesn’t play the field. Are we not allowed to factor that in? 

Pitching is playing the field, turd.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,695]

3 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Pitching is playing the field, turd.

He pitches everyday? Well then, they aren’t paying him nearly enough. And they ought to give him the cy young as well.  

[Hawkeye21 1,858]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

He pitches everyday? Well then, they aren’t paying him nearly enough. And they ought to give him the cy young as well.  

What?  Do any players play every day?  The pitching position is a field position.  Are you going to make the same argument for catchers as well?  I know what you were trying to say and it would be extremely impressive if he played on the field most days.  I'm not sure that's realistic for someone that pitches though.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,604]

15 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Ohtani doesn’t play the field. Are we not allowed to factor that in? 

he could, but why?

he was a great CF and RF and would be a fine 1B

[Hardcore troubadour 12,695]

2 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

he could, but why?

he was a great CF and RF and would be a fine 1B

Ok, we are giving him props for what he could do, which I’m sure he can do, but not what he does or doesn’t do? 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,604]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Ok, we are giving him props for what he could do, which I’m sure he can do, but not what he does or doesn’t do? 

I mean, if he wasn't doing both, he would likely play the field some, but I would say its smart to limit it is all

honestly I would DH Judge as much as I could too

 

 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,695]

Just now, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

I mean, if he wasn't doing both, he would likely play the field some, but I would say its smart to limit it is all

honestly I would DH Judge as much as I could too

 

 

I think Ohtani is a force like nothing I have ever seen.  But if Ohtani didn’t play the Angels would still suck. If Judge didn’t play like he is the Yankees would also suck.  It’s the old story of when Ralph Kiner went to the GM after leading the league in homeruns and asked for a raise. The GM told him I finished last with you, I can finish last without you. 

[vuduchile 1,941]

1 hour ago, WhiteWonder said:

So you are also in the camp to just give him the MVP as Long as he’s playing both ways and no one else is? And what happens if next year he has a terrible season on the mound and is average at the plate but no one else is equal to him in terms of doing both. He still should get it just because… both?

I never said that.  He's excelling as a hitter and a pitcher.  If he stops playing at those levels at either or both, he's not in the MVP discussion.  If someone else comes along and does what he does better, then he's no longer the best player in the game. 

[vuduchile 1,941]

1 hour ago, WhiteWonder said:

 

seemed like that was being said above  It’s a fair conclusion for me to come to at least. It’s not like ohtani is opening the floodgates for 2 way players because most teams don’t want guys doing both. 
 

Im not at all saying that what he does isn’t special. But he won the award last season because of it. At some point the “he’s pitching AND hitting!” Spectacle wears off and we need to look at stuff like his team not being in playoff contention, the other guy going for a clean homerun record and leading the AL in most hitting categories

When assessing a baseball player's career, playoff wins and rings matter much less than they do in football and basketball.  Baseball performance is slanted more toward individual stats than the other sports.  Not saying it's right.  It just is. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,695]

23 minutes ago, vuduchile said:

When assessing a baseball player's career, playoff wins and rings matter much less than they do in football and basketball.  Baseball performance is slanted more toward individual stats than the other sports.  Not saying it's right.  It just is. 

I think that was more applicable when. Only 2 or 4 teams made it to the post season. Now with playoff expansion getting there and what you do when you get there becomes a bigger factor in judging players.