Judge vs Ohtani...MVP discussion

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,622]

Judge is having an insane year, probably one of the most impressive power seasons of my life (considering next closest has 38 homers), and the Yankees would be nothing without him

 

Ohtani is the best and most valuable player in baseball hands down, and doesnt even seem like hes having a monster year but damn

The homers are numbers 31 and 32 on the season for Ohtani, respectively. He also doubled and drew a walk while scoring three runs. It's impossible to overstate how impressive Ohtani has been, as these offensive numbers are backed up with a 2.58 ERA and 181 strikeouts in 136 innings. It's truly -- if not likely -- possible that baseball fans will never see anything like this again. Appreciate it. 

[Mike Honcho 4,079]

Just looked it up and was very surprised to see Yankee Stadium is considered more of a pitchers park. 

Nevermind, they are using some advanced metrics so..

Without question, the biggest surprise on this list is the inclusion of Yankee Stadium.

While "The House that George Built" grades out as a hitter's park in home runs (1.135), runs scored (1.036) and walks (1.045), it falls well short of the mark elsewhere. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,622]

1 hour ago, Mike Honcho said:

Just looked it up and was very surprised to see Yankee Stadium is considered more of a pitchers park. 

Nevermind, they are using some advanced metrics so..

Without question, the biggest surprise on this list is the inclusion of Yankee Stadium.

While "The House that George Built" grades out as a hitter's park in home runs (1.135), runs scored (1.036) and walks (1.045), it falls well short of the mark elsewhere. 

interesting, and they are saying its a dead ball era too

this is a great conclusion, I hope Judge breaks 61, would be nice to see a legit time, and he seems like a really cool dude

Ohtani though is phenomenal

 

[WhiteWonder 2,199]

It’s all Legit until we find out it’s not. 
 

unfortunately the force feeding of the LA Ohtanis down our throats by MLB network has made me not like Ohtani at all. I guess it’s impressive but I don’t really care

[edjr 5,619]

discussion?  

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,622]

8 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

It’s all Legit until we find out it’s not. 
 

unfortunately the force feeding of the LA Ohtanis down our throats by MLB network has made me not like Ohtani at all. I guess it’s impressive but I don’t really care

you kidding me?  hes arguably the greatest all around player of our lifetime

 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,622]

5 minutes ago, edjr said:

discussion?  

I guess it isnt, Im pretty sure Judge gets it

but Ohtani should

 

[WhiteWonder 2,199]

2 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

you kidding me?  hes arguably the greatest all around player of our lifetime

 

As told to us daily by the media. 
 

honestly though, while that is true, in modern times no one has really wanted to be an all around player until now. How long will his career last? How long will he pitch and hit? There was a definite circus element to it at the start. 

[edjr 5,619]

5 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

I guess it isnt, Im pretty sure Judge gets it

 

 

 

[Mike Honcho 4,079]

25 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

interesting, and they are saying its a dead ball era too

this is a great conclusion, I hope Judge breaks 61, would be nice to see a legit time, and he seems like a really cool dude

Ohtani though is phenomenal

 

Would be awesome to see---even if it's a Yankee doing it.  It would be pretty great to hear everyone declare Judge the single season HR king at 62 HR's.  

[edjr 5,619]

9 minutes ago, Mike Honcho said:

Would be awesome to see---even if it's a Yankee doing it.  It would be pretty great to hear everyone declare Judge the single season HR king at 62 HR's.  

   you dream big

[listen2me 23 1,558]

I know baseball is goofy.  But Angels are 59-76. So um.....no to Ohtani....as good as he is.  

[TimmySmith 2,782]

Ohtani by a lot.  Shame, too, because Judge is having a great year. 

[edjr 5,619]

2 minutes ago, TimmySmith said:

Ohtani by a lot.  Shame, too, because Judge is having a great year. 

Not even a discussion. This even less of a discussion than when Pedro lost the MVP to Roidboy Pudge

[WhiteWonder 2,199]

Clearly Buck Showalter

[edjr 5,619]

1 minute ago, WhiteWonder said:

Clearly Buck Showalter

Michal Cuddyer gets no love?

[vuduchile 1,941]

Ohtani

[WhiteWonder 2,199]

25 minutes ago, edjr said:

Michal Cuddyer gets no love?

I don’t get the Cuddyer reference (other than that he played for them) but as a Mets fan adjacent, Showalter was exactly what that team needed. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,622]

1 hour ago, WhiteWonder said:

As told to us daily by the media. 
 

honestly though, while that is true, in modern times no one has really wanted to be an all around player until now. How long will his career last? How long will he pitch and hit? There was a definite circus element to it at the start. 

I dont follow the media, so I just know from watching the games.  I think he can hit into his late 30's and pitch the same, dude is crazy talented but also a good pitcher, not just a thrower

[edjr 5,619]

8 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

I don’t get the Cuddyer reference (other than that he played for them) but as a Mets fan adjacent, Showalter was exactly what that team needed. 

ask @Reality

[WhiteWonder 2,199]

Just now, edjr said:

ask @Reality

I’ll assume he said something to the effect of Cuddyer being a key or impact pickup  

[Hardcore troubadour 12,831]

Judge. He’s a one man band at this point. I don’t know why he gets any pitches to hit. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,153]

4 hours ago, WhiteWonder said:

It’s all Legit until we find out it’s not. 
 

unfortunately the force feeding of the LA Ohtanis down our throats by MLB network has made me not like Ohtani at all. I guess it’s impressive but I don’t really care

Come on dude, he ranks up there with the greats in baseball in hitting... with the likes of Alejandro Kirk.  How can you be so blind!  Yes, that was sarcasm.

Ohtani is a great pitcher and a pretty good hitter, who's made out to be elite at both.

The Angels would be best severed if they put an end to his role in the lineup and just have him pitch.  He probably would be an elite pitcher if that happened.  Maybe next year when he's traded, the team getting him will make that smart decision.

[TBayXXXVII 2,153]

My votes for MVP go to Goldschmidt in the NL (who may win the triple crown), and Adley Rutschman in the AL for turning a garbage Orioles team into a playoff contender, almost single-handedly.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,622]

1 hour ago, TBayXXXVII said:

Come on dude, he ranks up there with the greats in baseball in hitting... with the likes of Alejandro Kirk.  How can you be so blind!  Yes, that was sarcasm.

Ohtani is a great pitcher and a pretty good hitter, who's made out to be elite at both.

The Angels would be best severed if they put an end to his role in the lineup and just have him pitch.  He probably would be an elite pitcher if that happened.  Maybe next year when he's traded, the team getting him will make that smart decision.

he would be an elite pitcher?

hes already an elite pitcher 

#1 in k/9 

#2 in xfip

#9 in ERA

#7 in WAR

despite not even being in the top 30 in IP

hes worth 7.9 WAR, Judge is sitting at 8.9 though

 

 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,831]

Ohtani’s numbers took a noticeable dip when Trout was out.  

[WhiteWonder 2,199]

1 hour ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

he would be an elite pitcher?

hes already an elite pitcher 

#1 in k/9 

#2 in xfip

#9 in ERA

#7 in WAR

despite not even being in the top 30 in IP

hes worth 7.9 WAR, Judge is sitting at 8.9 though

 

 

those are nice numbers for sure... although im not sure not being in the top 30 in IP makes them more impressive. None of the stats you listed are counting stats like wins, k's, cg's...  so more innings is either a chance to prove those peripherals are for real or a chance to come back to the pack a bit. 

If he was an innings workhorse like some of the top tier starters, would his ERA be higher?, could he maintain his K/9 rate? etc. 

what this really says is that he has elite stuff. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,622]

1 hour ago, WhiteWonder said:

those are nice numbers for sure... although im not sure not being in the top 30 in IP makes them more impressive. None of the stats you listed are counting stats like wins, k's, cg's...  so more innings is either a chance to prove those peripherals are for real or a chance to come back to the pack a bit. 

If he was an innings workhorse like some of the top tier starters, would his ERA be higher?, could he maintain his K/9 rate? etc. 

what this really says is that he has elite stuff. 

he started 23 games last year and as a pitcher was worth 3 war

this year hes started 23 games as well and is at 4.4

maybe he couldnt, cause hes about .5 k/9 above his average, hes averaging about 6 IP per start

some things I see that suggest he could is his slider K rate has always been higher, and hes throwing sliders at 36% vs 22% last year, which makes sense since he was coming off TJ

last year he threw 130 IP

this year he will be around 160+ with 4-5 more starts

it looks like maybe he missed some starts (was on DL a bit) as most starters are at 27 GS right now

 

[posty 2,306]

8 hours ago, Mike Honcho said:

Would be awesome to see---even if it's a Yankee doing it.  It would be pretty great to hear everyone declare Judge the single season HR king at 62 HR's.  

Kind of funny since the record is 73...  Must be that common core math...

[Mike Honcho 4,079]

10 hours ago, posty said:

Kind of funny since the record is 73...  Must be that common core math...

[edjr 5,619]

11 hours ago, posty said:

Kind of funny since the record is 73...  Must be that common core math...

Get wrecked son.  

[TBayXXXVII 2,153]

14 hours ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

he would be an elite pitcher?

hes already an elite pitcher 

#1 in k/9 

#2 in xfip

#9 in ERA

#7 in WAR

despite not even being in the top 30 in IP

hes worth 7.9 WAR, Judge is sitting at 8.9 though

 

 

 

12 hours ago, WhiteWonder said:

those are nice numbers for sure... although im not sure not being in the top 30 in IP makes them more impressive. None of the stats you listed are counting stats like wins, k's, cg's...  so more innings is either a chance to prove those peripherals are for real or a chance to come back to the pack a bit. 

If he was an innings workhorse like some of the top tier starters, would his ERA be higher?, could he maintain his K/9 rate? etc. 

what this really says is that he has elite stuff. 

 

11 hours ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

he started 23 games last year and as a pitcher was worth 3 war

this year hes started 23 games as well and is at 4.4

maybe he couldnt, cause hes about .5 k/9 above his average, hes averaging about 6 IP per start

some things I see that suggest he could is his slider K rate has always been higher, and hes throwing sliders at 36% vs 22% last year, which makes sense since he was coming off TJ

last year he threw 130 IP

this year he will be around 160+ with 4-5 more starts

it looks like maybe he missed some starts (was on DL a bit) as most starters are at 27 GS right now

 

It's not really an injury issue, it's a usage issue.  Pitchers generally pitch on 4 & 5 days rest.  On average, as a rough "guesstimate", I'll say about 45+% of their starts are on 4 days rest and 45+% on 5, with the remaining being <10% of 6+ days rest.  For Ohtani, of his 23 starts, 0% are on 4 days rest, 39% on 5 days rest, and 61% on 6+ days rest.  He has the luxury of being babied in the rotation as compared to other pitchers.  The funny thing is, he's better on 5 days rest than 6.  You'd think the Angels would be smart enough to know this and have him pitch on 5 days rest more often.  The Angels are a complete joke of an organization.

[TimmySmith 2,782]

50 minutes ago, TBayXXXVII said:

It's not really an injury issue, it's a usage issue.  Pitchers generally pitch on 4 & 5 days rest.  On average, as a rough "guesstimate", I'll say about 45+% of their starts are on 4 days rest and 45+% on 5, with the remaining being <10% of 6+ days rest.  For Ohtani, of his 23 starts, 0% are on 4 days rest, 39% on 5 days rest, and 61% on 6+ days rest.  He has the luxury of being babied in the rotation as compared to other pitchers.  The funny thing is, he's better on 5 days rest than 6.  You'd think the Angels would be smart enough to know this and have him pitch on 5 days rest more often.  The Angels are a complete joke of an organization.

His value as a pitcher/hitter usurps his value as a pitcher only.  Pitching him less has been successful for both.  

[TBayXXXVII 2,153]

4 minutes ago, TimmySmith said:

His value as a pitcher/hitter usurps his value as a pitcher only.  Pitching him less has been successful for both.  

Yes, that 60 - 76 record... VERY successful.

[TimmySmith 2,782]

Just now, TBayXXXVII said:

Yes, that 60 - 76 records.... VERY successful.

Yes, he's clearly the problem. 

[TBayXXXVII 2,153]

Just now, TimmySmith said:

Yes, he's clearly the problem. 

I've ALWAYS maintained that the problem was with how the Angels have handled him and not him as a player.

[vuduchile 1,941]

17 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Judge. He’s a one man band at this point. I don’t know why he gets any pitches to hit. 

Homer

[vuduchile 1,941]

Shohei Ohtani currently leads the Angels in:

Home Runs: 32

RBI: 85

Hits: 130

Runs: 78

Wins: 11

Strikeouts: 181

ERA: 2.58

[Mike Honcho 4,079]

12 hours ago, posty said:

Kind of funny since the * record is 73...  Must be that common core math...

Fixed. 

[WhiteWonder 2,199]

56 minutes ago, TimmySmith said:

Yes, he's clearly the problem. 

Doesn’t matter who the problem is. People generally don’t like MVP going to a basement dwelling team or one not in the playoff hunt. It’s the old best versus most valuable argument.